ImageImageImage

Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton

Moderator: jbk1234

Do you approve or disapprove of the Collin Sexton pick?

Approve
15
54%
Disapprove
8
29%
Undecided
5
18%
 
Total votes: 28

jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 37,877
And1: 21,763
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#61 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 8, 2020 4:36 am

tugs wrote:Surprised no talk about current/former Cavs vets criticizing Sexton's game


It's in another thread. I'm beginning to strongly suspect the F.O. is deliberately tanking by not moving him to the bench. The kid can score, but he's never going to be a guy who makes his teammates better.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#62 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 8, 2020 1:45 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
tugs wrote:Surprised no talk about current/former Cavs vets criticizing Sexton's game


It's in another thread. I'm beginning to strongly suspect the F.O. is deliberately tanking by not moving him to the bench. The kid can score, but he's never going to be a guy who makes his teammates better.

Probably not given the circumstances but Drummond didn't look like he'd ever shoot free throws and stay on the floor in the end of games, and Zizic looked like he'd never be more than a 4th big and he's obviously gotten himself better.
Sextons inability to see the pass before it happens is a problem but when the team doesn't make the fast cuts his best option is him I mean the amount of standing around on this roster compared to good offenses is obviously a problem too.this team needs a Korver threat cutting around and impacting the defense.
Sure he ignores his teammates because in all honesty they do the same thing to him because they want the ball back and are just as selfish.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 37,877
And1: 21,763
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#63 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 8, 2020 2:46 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
tugs wrote:Surprised no talk about current/former Cavs vets criticizing Sexton's game


It's in another thread. I'm beginning to strongly suspect the F.O. is deliberately tanking by not moving him to the bench. The kid can score, but he's never going to be a guy who makes his teammates better.

Probably not given the circumstances but Drummond didn't look like he'd ever shoot free throws and stay on the floor in the end of games, and Zizic looked like he'd never be more than a 4th big and he's obviously gotten himself better.
Sextons inability to see the pass before it happens is a problem but when the team doesn't make the fast cuts his best option is him I mean the amount of standing around on this roster compared to good offenses is obviously a problem too.this team needs a Korver threat cutting around and impacting the defense.
Sure he ignores his teammates because in all honesty they do the same thing to him because they want the ball back and are just as selfish.


You have a thousand excuses for the young man most of which are nonsense. At a certain point, the Cavs have to be to recognize they have a problem on their hands and try to address it.

If they recognize the problem exists but don't really care because they want a top 4 pick, okay then. They've pissed away Love's trade value and made it harder to sign FAs in the future, but at least that's a rational explanation. Maybe they even adopt some type of compromise where the offense runs through Love until the 4th quarter but then Sexton gets to YOLO ball so we're never in danger of winning close games.

If they don't recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, then a) that's terrifying; and b) I'd really like to hear the game plan for building a winning team around Sexton as *the guy.* I don't know why any other good player would be okay playing alongside Sexton when he plays that selfishly. I don't see a road map that gets the Cavs from Sexton YOLO ball to here's a scary playoff team. So, speaking the Cavs F.O. sketch it out on a blackboard and show us your work.

If they do recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, but they can't get him to listen, then he should no longer be starting. At a certain point, film sessions and in-game conversations don't get the job done. This isn't a participation trophy league. They don't get to say they've tried. That's not the way good organizations operate. The Spurs, Heat, and Dallas would never accept that a guy on a rookie contract just won't listen. That player would move to the bench if he played at all.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#64 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 4:26 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
It's in another thread. I'm beginning to strongly suspect the F.O. is deliberately tanking by not moving him to the bench. The kid can score, but he's never going to be a guy who makes his teammates better.

Probably not given the circumstances but Drummond didn't look like he'd ever shoot free throws and stay on the floor in the end of games, and Zizic looked like he'd never be more than a 4th big and he's obviously gotten himself better.
Sextons inability to see the pass before it happens is a problem but when the team doesn't make the fast cuts his best option is him I mean the amount of standing around on this roster compared to good offenses is obviously a problem too.this team needs a Korver threat cutting around and impacting the defense.
Sure he ignores his teammates because in all honesty they do the same thing to him because they want the ball back and are just as selfish.


You have a thousand excuses for the young man most of which are nonsense. At a certain point, the Cavs have to be to recognize they have a problem on their hands and try to address it.

If they recognize the problem exists but don't really care because they want a top 4 pick, okay then. They've pissed away Love's trade value and made it harder to sign FAs in the future, but at least that's a rational explanation. Maybe they even adopt some type of compromise where the offense runs through Love until the 4th quarter but then Sexton gets to YOLO ball so we're never in danger of winning close games.

If they don't recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, then a) that's terrifying; and b) I'd really like to hear the game plan for building a winning team around Sexton as *the guy.* I don't know why any other good player would be okay playing alongside Sexton when he plays that selfishly. I don't see a road map that gets the Cavs from Sexton YOLO ball to here's a scary playoff team. So, speaking the Cavs F.O. sketch it out on a blackboard and show us your work.

If they do recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, but they can't get him to listen, then he should no longer be starting. At a certain point, film sessions and in-game conversations don't get the job done. This isn't a participation trophy league. They don't get to say they've tried. That's not the way good organizations operate. The Spurs, Heat, and Dallas would never accept that a guy on a rookie contract just won't listen. That player would move to the bench if he played at all.


I think they made their "adjustment" last year when they moved Sexton over to SG and then drafted a PG. Collin does have a lot of talent attacking the rim and scoring the ball (opposing announcers often gush) so the Cavs are trying to play to his strengths.

Ever since Ty Lue was fired it was clear the most important thing to the organization was throwing minutes at our lottery picks.

If the kids play so well that we don't keep our 2020 #1 - that's one thing, but we do need to make sure that players who aren't going to be here long-term don't cost us that pick.

I'm not sure it's any more complicated than that.

As the trade deadline and the off-season comes up we should be evaluating our options, but there are lot of repercussions to giving up on a 20 year old lottery pick unless you've got substantial assets coming pack.

We are just 2 games behind the Warriors and the Hawks for the worst record in the league and in perhaps an unexpected way the new lottery odds put more pressure on being real bad to try to avoid falling out of the top-2/3/5 or whatever the sweet spot is for a given draft.

If a mistake is being made, it's that the sort of GM's and owners impressed by counting numbers are going extinct. If anything you want to tease your young players by putting them in limited/winning situations and leave it to your fellow GM to guess how they might play with extended starting minutes.

Fact is most lottery picks drop in value after being drafted.

Reality is far harsher than potential.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#65 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 8, 2020 4:28 pm

This team has ZERO knock down shooters besides Love and even he only has shooting games like yesterday 1 in 20.
The constant hate for Sexton not giving up the ball when there is no option better than him most of the time besides the sad truth of him driving into the trees and forcing floaters esp when Love has been taken out by double teams in end situations like yesterday for a prime example proven by Beilein calling that play. Until they actually have other better options to play off him or Garland neither will be successful.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#66 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 4:37 pm

Stillwater wrote:^ your take is way off base for what is actually happening. This team has ZERO knock down shooters besides Love and even he only has shooting games like yesterday 1 in 20.
The constant hate for Sexton not giving up the ball when there is no option better than him most of the time besides the sad truth of him driving into the trees and forcing floaters esp when Love has been taken out by double teams in end situations like yesterday for a prime example proven by Beilein calling that play. Until they actually have other better options to play off him or Garland neither will be successful.


I'm not sure anyone is "hating" on Collin ... and I'm not sure what you consider a "knock down shooter".

Love, Garland, and Osman are all shooting 37% or higher from 3pt and will knock down open shots at a higher rate. Tristan and Collin are the only questionable shooters among the starters.

Collin more often than not just doesn't see them or isn't looking for them. He should, though. It would make things a lot easier for him if he made sure to keep the defense honest.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#67 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 8, 2020 4:42 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ your take is way off base for what is actually happening. This team has ZERO knock down shooters besides Love and even he only has shooting games like yesterday 1 in 20.
The constant hate for Sexton not giving up the ball when there is no option better than him most of the time besides the sad truth of him driving into the trees and forcing floaters esp when Love has been taken out by double teams in end situations like yesterday for a prime example proven by Beilein calling that play. Until they actually have other better options to play off him or Garland neither will be successful.


I'm not sure anyone is "hating" on Collin ... and I'm not sure what you consider a "knock down shooter".

Love, Garland, and Osman are all shooting 37% or higher from 3pt and will knock down open shots at a higher rate. Tristan and Collin are the only questionable shooters among the starters.

Collin more often than not just doesn't see them or isn't looking for them. He should, though. It would make things a lot easier for him if he made sure to keep the defense honest.

I do not agree he doesn't see them and I do not agree they are open or creating openings until after he is in the paint and rarely do they cut to the spot they need to be for a reception worth the pass.sure he doesn't appear to be making the right play when he gets blocked but the sad truth is his floater is more reliable than a corner 3 by anyone on this roster not named Love.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#68 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 4:57 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ your take is way off base for what is actually happening. This team has ZERO knock down shooters besides Love and even he only has shooting games like yesterday 1 in 20.
The constant hate for Sexton not giving up the ball when there is no option better than him most of the time besides the sad truth of him driving into the trees and forcing floaters esp when Love has been taken out by double teams in end situations like yesterday for a prime example proven by Beilein calling that play. Until they actually have other better options to play off him or Garland neither will be successful.


I'm not sure anyone is "hating" on Collin ... and I'm not sure what you consider a "knock down shooter".

Love, Garland, and Osman are all shooting 37% or higher from 3pt and will knock down open shots at a higher rate. Tristan and Collin are the only questionable shooters among the starters.

Collin more often than not just doesn't see them or isn't looking for them. He should, though. It would make things a lot easier for him if he made sure to keep the defense honest.

I do not agree he doesn't see them and I do not agree they are open or creating openings until after he is in the paint and rarely do they cut to the spot they need to be for a reception worth the pass.sure he doesn't appear to be making the right play when he gets blocked but the sad truth is his floater is more reliable than a corner 3 by anyone on this roster not named Love.


That's what I'm talking about. Defenders will continue to collapse and surround him in the paint if he doesn't have enough awareness to realize someone behind him was left wide open.

Some players have "eyes on the back of their head", Collin does not.

Plus there's a basic synergy involved. Garland was playing with Clarkson on the second unit for just a little while when he realized that if he shifted over to a spot with a clear passing lane that counter to his rep that Clarkson would pass him the ball. If Sexton made it clear that off ball movement would be rewarded, we'd see more of it.

It takes some sacrifice and a fundamental realization that building trust in teammates is even more important than making a shot.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 37,877
And1: 21,763
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#69 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 8, 2020 5:19 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Probably not given the circumstances but Drummond didn't look like he'd ever shoot free throws and stay on the floor in the end of games, and Zizic looked like he'd never be more than a 4th big and he's obviously gotten himself better.
Sextons inability to see the pass before it happens is a problem but when the team doesn't make the fast cuts his best option is him I mean the amount of standing around on this roster compared to good offenses is obviously a problem too.this team needs a Korver threat cutting around and impacting the defense.
Sure he ignores his teammates because in all honesty they do the same thing to him because they want the ball back and are just as selfish.


You have a thousand excuses for the young man most of which are nonsense. At a certain point, the Cavs have to be to recognize they have a problem on their hands and try to address it.

If they recognize the problem exists but don't really care because they want a top 4 pick, okay then. They've pissed away Love's trade value and made it harder to sign FAs in the future, but at least that's a rational explanation. Maybe they even adopt some type of compromise where the offense runs through Love until the 4th quarter but then Sexton gets to YOLO ball so we're never in danger of winning close games.

If they don't recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, then a) that's terrifying; and b) I'd really like to hear the game plan for building a winning team around Sexton as *the guy.* I don't know why any other good player would be okay playing alongside Sexton when he plays that selfishly. I don't see a road map that gets the Cavs from Sexton YOLO ball to here's a scary playoff team. So, speaking the Cavs F.O. sketch it out on a blackboard and show us your work.

If they do recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, but they can't get him to listen, then he should no longer be starting. At a certain point, film sessions and in-game conversations don't get the job done. This isn't a participation trophy league. They don't get to say they've tried. That's not the way good organizations operate. The Spurs, Heat, and Dallas would never accept that a guy on a rookie contract just won't listen. That player would move to the bench if he played at all.


I think they made their "adjustment" last year when they moved Sexton over to SG and then drafted a PG. Collin does have a lot of talent attacking the rim and scoring the ball (opposing announcers often gush) so the Cavs are trying to play to his strengths.

Ever since Ty Lue was fired it was clear the most important thing to the organization was throwing minutes at our lottery picks.

If the kids play so well that we don't keep our 2020 #1 - that's one thing, but we do need to make sure that players who aren't going to be here long-term don't cost us that pick.

I'm not sure it's any more complicated than that.

As the trade deadline and the off-season comes up we should be evaluating our options, but there are lot of repercussions to giving up on a 20 year old lottery pick unless you've got substantial assets coming pack.

We are just 2 games behind the Warriors and the Hawks for the worst record in the league and in perhaps an unexpected way the new lottery odds put more pressure on being real bad to try to avoid falling out of the top-2/3/5 or whatever the sweet spot is for a given draft.

If a mistake is being made, it's that the sort of GM's and owners impressed by counting numbers are going extinct. If anything you want to tease your young players by putting them in limited/winning situations and leave it to your fellow GM to guess how they might play with extended starting minutes.

Fact is most lottery picks drop in value after being drafted.

Reality is far harsher than potential.


To your last point, I think the window is closing on moving him to the bench and convincing another team he'd be a good starter on *their team* wink, wink. We have a pretty big sample size at this point, especially in late game situations. A team like the Magic, that needs offensive production however they can get it, is a viable option. But, I'd like to know what his value as a sixth man would be before making that move. If he's a legitimate sixth man of the year candidate, that's probably more valuable than what we'd get back depending on what you think of Bamba.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#70 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 8, 2020 5:22 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I'm not sure anyone is "hating" on Collin ... and I'm not sure what you consider a "knock down shooter".

Love, Garland, and Osman are all shooting 37% or higher from 3pt and will knock down open shots at a higher rate. Tristan and Collin are the only questionable shooters among the starters.

Collin more often than not just doesn't see them or isn't looking for them. He should, though. It would make things a lot easier for him if he made sure to keep the defense honest.

I do not agree he doesn't see them and I do not agree they are open or creating openings until after he is in the paint and rarely do they cut to the spot they need to be for a reception worth the pass.sure he doesn't appear to be making the right play when he gets blocked but the sad truth is his floater is more reliable than a corner 3 by anyone on this roster not named Love.


That's what I'm talking about. Defenders will continue to collapse and surround him in the paint if he doesn't have enough awareness to realize someone behind him was left wide open.

Some players have "eyes on the back of their head", Collin does not.

Plus there's a basic synergy involved. Garland was playing with Clarkson on the second unit for just a little while when he realized that if he shifted over to a spot with a clear passing lane that counter to his rep that Clarkson would pass him the ball. If Sexton made it clear that off ball movement would be rewarded, we'd see more of it.

It takes some sacrifice and a fundamental realization that building trust in teammates is even more important than making a shot.

The only way him passing behind him as you put it makes any sense is if he drives in there early in the shot clock and there is time for another pass from the bad shooter he passed it too to Love who may have gotten open at that point. He sees them as lesser optiond aka what they are and is not being told to pass to them so this notion he ignores them or doesn't have eyes in back of his head is only true because he has the green light to do so by this coach. If anything for Beileins system to work 4 out of 5 players have to be reliable enough perimeter shooters that defenses won't leave them. It would have worked better this year with Collin off ball if he could be a knock down shooter like he was in feb march and april
He is however a better choice given several issues to drive into the teeth inside for 1 because he's strong enough to and 2 his shot is bad this season and 3 that's what Beilein wants.4 Garland is not really better at passing or finishing when driving but the coach has been having him running plays to allow him to get the ball to others as a pass first guard despite him wanting to score because he's a scorer not a floor general either. Both are doing what they are told usually but it's Sexton that needs to gamble against coach orders if there is an open teammate and if they make the shot it was worth it, if not there you have it. Garland needs to stick with Beilein plan but he's a little rebel and just wants to be cut loose and I don't blame him but it won't work at this level until he's a lot stronger
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#71 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 8, 2020 5:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
You have a thousand excuses for the young man most of which are nonsense. At a certain point, the Cavs have to be to recognize they have a problem on their hands and try to address it.

If they recognize the problem exists but don't really care because they want a top 4 pick, okay then. They've pissed away Love's trade value and made it harder to sign FAs in the future, but at least that's a rational explanation. Maybe they even adopt some type of compromise where the offense runs through Love until the 4th quarter but then Sexton gets to YOLO ball so we're never in danger of winning close games.

If they don't recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, then a) that's terrifying; and b) I'd really like to hear the game plan for building a winning team around Sexton as *the guy.* I don't know why any other good player would be okay playing alongside Sexton when he plays that selfishly. I don't see a road map that gets the Cavs from Sexton YOLO ball to here's a scary playoff team. So, speaking the Cavs F.O. sketch it out on a blackboard and show us your work.

If they do recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, but they can't get him to listen, then he should no longer be starting. At a certain point, film sessions and in-game conversations don't get the job done. This isn't a participation trophy league. They don't get to say they've tried. That's not the way good organizations operate. The Spurs, Heat, and Dallas would never accept that a guy on a rookie contract just won't listen. That player would move to the bench if he played at all.


I think they made their "adjustment" last year when they moved Sexton over to SG and then drafted a PG. Collin does have a lot of talent attacking the rim and scoring the ball (opposing announcers often gush) so the Cavs are trying to play to his strengths.

Ever since Ty Lue was fired it was clear the most important thing to the organization was throwing minutes at our lottery picks.

If the kids play so well that we don't keep our 2020 #1 - that's one thing, but we do need to make sure that players who aren't going to be here long-term don't cost us that pick.

I'm not sure it's any more complicated than that.

As the trade deadline and the off-season comes up we should be evaluating our options, but there are lot of repercussions to giving up on a 20 year old lottery pick unless you've got substantial assets coming pack.

We are just 2 games behind the Warriors and the Hawks for the worst record in the league and in perhaps an unexpected way the new lottery odds put more pressure on being real bad to try to avoid falling out of the top-2/3/5 or whatever the sweet spot is for a given draft.

If a mistake is being made, it's that the sort of GM's and owners impressed by counting numbers are going extinct. If anything you want to tease your young players by putting them in limited/winning situations and leave it to your fellow GM to guess how they might play with extended starting minutes.

Fact is most lottery picks drop in value after being drafted.

Reality is far harsher than potential.


To your last point, I think the window is closing on moving him to the bench and convincing another team he'd be a good starter on *their team* wink, wink. We have a pretty big sample size at this point, especially in late game situations. A team like the Magic, that needs offensive production however they can get it, is a viable option. But, I'd like to know what his value as a sixth man would be before making that move. If he's a legitimate sixth man of the year candidate, that's probably more valuable than what we'd get back depending on what you think of Bamba.

As much as I disagree with most of the takes on here about WHY he's not a passer , they also are not asking him to be at all... If they decide to move him though before he finds his outside shot they won't get good value since everything bad about his game is all anyone talks about. Nobody believes in him yet they drafted him for his relentless work seems kind of stupid too me. The window on trading him has only slightly started to open because of his struggles as a shooter and expectations from others outside the org for him to be some pass first off guard. Which is a joke in itself.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 37,877
And1: 21,763
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#72 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 8, 2020 5:37 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I think they made their "adjustment" last year when they moved Sexton over to SG and then drafted a PG. Collin does have a lot of talent attacking the rim and scoring the ball (opposing announcers often gush) so the Cavs are trying to play to his strengths.

Ever since Ty Lue was fired it was clear the most important thing to the organization was throwing minutes at our lottery picks.

If the kids play so well that we don't keep our 2020 #1 - that's one thing, but we do need to make sure that players who aren't going to be here long-term don't cost us that pick.

I'm not sure it's any more complicated than that.

As the trade deadline and the off-season comes up we should be evaluating our options, but there are lot of repercussions to giving up on a 20 year old lottery pick unless you've got substantial assets coming pack.

We are just 2 games behind the Warriors and the Hawks for the worst record in the league and in perhaps an unexpected way the new lottery odds put more pressure on being real bad to try to avoid falling out of the top-2/3/5 or whatever the sweet spot is for a given draft.

If a mistake is being made, it's that the sort of GM's and owners impressed by counting numbers are going extinct. If anything you want to tease your young players by putting them in limited/winning situations and leave it to your fellow GM to guess how they might play with extended starting minutes.

Fact is most lottery picks drop in value after being drafted.

Reality is far harsher than potential.


To your last point, I think the window is closing on moving him to the bench and convincing another team he'd be a good starter on *their team* wink, wink. We have a pretty big sample size at this point, especially in late game situations. A team like the Magic, that needs offensive production however they can get it, is a viable option. But, I'd like to know what his value as a sixth man would be before making that move. If he's a legitimate sixth man of the year candidate, that's probably more valuable than what we'd get back depending on what you think of Bamba.

As much as I disagree with most of the takes on here about WHY he's not a passer , they also are not asking him to be at all... If they decide to move him though before he finds his outside shot they won't get good value since everything bad about his game is all anyone talks about. Nobody believes in him yet they drafted him for his relentless work seems kind of stupid too me. The window on trading him has only slightly started to open because of his struggles as a shooter and expectations from others outside the org for him to be some pass first off guard. Which is a joke in itself.


I refuse to believe that the Cavs, as an organization, are that incompetent. They don't sit around in film sessions and say *hey Collin you missed two open guys on that drive when the entire defense collapsed into the paint. Well done.*
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#73 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 7:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
You have a thousand excuses for the young man most of which are nonsense. At a certain point, the Cavs have to be to recognize they have a problem on their hands and try to address it.

If they recognize the problem exists but don't really care because they want a top 4 pick, okay then. They've pissed away Love's trade value and made it harder to sign FAs in the future, but at least that's a rational explanation. Maybe they even adopt some type of compromise where the offense runs through Love until the 4th quarter but then Sexton gets to YOLO ball so we're never in danger of winning close games.

If they don't recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, then a) that's terrifying; and b) I'd really like to hear the game plan for building a winning team around Sexton as *the guy.* I don't know why any other good player would be okay playing alongside Sexton when he plays that selfishly. I don't see a road map that gets the Cavs from Sexton YOLO ball to here's a scary playoff team. So, speaking the Cavs F.O. sketch it out on a blackboard and show us your work.

If they do recognize Sexton's play as a starter as a problem, but they can't get him to listen, then he should no longer be starting. At a certain point, film sessions and in-game conversations don't get the job done. This isn't a participation trophy league. They don't get to say they've tried. That's not the way good organizations operate. The Spurs, Heat, and Dallas would never accept that a guy on a rookie contract just won't listen. That player would move to the bench if he played at all.


I think they made their "adjustment" last year when they moved Sexton over to SG and then drafted a PG. Collin does have a lot of talent attacking the rim and scoring the ball (opposing announcers often gush) so the Cavs are trying to play to his strengths.

Ever since Ty Lue was fired it was clear the most important thing to the organization was throwing minutes at our lottery picks.

If the kids play so well that we don't keep our 2020 #1 - that's one thing, but we do need to make sure that players who aren't going to be here long-term don't cost us that pick.

I'm not sure it's any more complicated than that.

As the trade deadline and the off-season comes up we should be evaluating our options, but there are lot of repercussions to giving up on a 20 year old lottery pick unless you've got substantial assets coming pack.

We are just 2 games behind the Warriors and the Hawks for the worst record in the league and in perhaps an unexpected way the new lottery odds put more pressure on being real bad to try to avoid falling out of the top-2/3/5 or whatever the sweet spot is for a given draft.

If a mistake is being made, it's that the sort of GM's and owners impressed by counting numbers are going extinct. If anything you want to tease your young players by putting them in limited/winning situations and leave it to your fellow GM to guess how they might play with extended starting minutes.

Fact is most lottery picks drop in value after being drafted.

Reality is far harsher than potential.


To your last point, I think the window is closing on moving him to the bench and convincing another team he'd be a good starter on *their team* wink, wink. We have a pretty big sample size at this point, especially in late game situations. A team like the Magic, that needs offensive production however they can get it, is a viable option. But, I'd like to know what his value as a sixth man would be before making that move. If he's a legitimate sixth man of the year candidate, that's probably more valuable than what we'd get back depending on what you think of Bamba.


We just saw what the value of a solid 6th man was when we traded Clarkson (aka not much). It's fine to kick the tires and see what we might get, and even sometimes team's will swap projects like Bamba for Sexton; but other GMs, coaches and scouts see what we see.
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#74 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 7:43 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
To your last point, I think the window is closing on moving him to the bench and convincing another team he'd be a good starter on *their team* wink, wink. We have a pretty big sample size at this point, especially in late game situations. A team like the Magic, that needs offensive production however they can get it, is a viable option. But, I'd like to know what his value as a sixth man would be before making that move. If he's a legitimate sixth man of the year candidate, that's probably more valuable than what we'd get back depending on what you think of Bamba.

As much as I disagree with most of the takes on here about WHY he's not a passer , they also are not asking him to be at all... If they decide to move him though before he finds his outside shot they won't get good value since everything bad about his game is all anyone talks about. Nobody believes in him yet they drafted him for his relentless work seems kind of stupid too me. The window on trading him has only slightly started to open because of his struggles as a shooter and expectations from others outside the org for him to be some pass first off guard. Which is a joke in itself.


I refuse to believe that the Cavs, as an organization, are that incompetent. They don't sit around in film sessions and say *hey Collin you missed two open guys on that drive when the entire defense collapsed into the paint. Well done.*


I agree, but it's also fair to say they're not punishing him for missing open men and they are encouraging him to score; but yeah, I don't think any coach would ever say - "don't even bother passing, you're far better than your teammates".

Sexton is no MJ and even MJ was eventually convinced that passing out of a triple team was the right move.

I think they're working with what they've got, trying to keep things positive, and keep the shine on their apple; but it's really hard to keep everybody happy and we're starting to see some problems pop up because of it.
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#75 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 8:00 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I do not agree he doesn't see them and I do not agree they are open or creating openings until after he is in the paint and rarely do they cut to the spot they need to be for a reception worth the pass.sure he doesn't appear to be making the right play when he gets blocked but the sad truth is his floater is more reliable than a corner 3 by anyone on this roster not named Love.


That's what I'm talking about. Defenders will continue to collapse and surround him in the paint if he doesn't have enough awareness to realize someone behind him was left wide open.

Some players have "eyes on the back of their head", Collin does not.

Plus there's a basic synergy involved. Garland was playing with Clarkson on the second unit for just a little while when he realized that if he shifted over to a spot with a clear passing lane that counter to his rep that Clarkson would pass him the ball. If Sexton made it clear that off ball movement would be rewarded, we'd see more of it.

It takes some sacrifice and a fundamental realization that building trust in teammates is even more important than making a shot.

The only way him passing behind him as you put it makes any sense is if he drives in there early in the shot clock and there is time for another pass from the bad shooter he passed it too to Love who may have gotten open at that point. He sees them as lesser optiond aka what they are and is not being told to pass to them so this notion he ignores them or doesn't have eyes in back of his head is only true because he has the green light to do so by this coach. If anything for Beileins system to work 4 out of 5 players have to be reliable enough perimeter shooters that defenses won't leave them. It would have worked better this year with Collin off ball if he could be a knock down shooter like he was in feb march and april
He is however a better choice given several issues to drive into the teeth inside for 1 because he's strong enough to and 2 his shot is bad this season and 3 that's what Beilein wants.4 Garland is not really better at passing or finishing when driving but the coach has been having him running plays to allow him to get the ball to others as a pass first guard despite him wanting to score because he's a scorer not a floor general either. Both are doing what they are told usually but it's Sexton that needs to gamble against coach orders if there is an open teammate and if they make the shot it was worth it, if not there you have it. Garland needs to stick with Beilein plan but he's a little rebel and just wants to be cut loose and I don't blame him but it won't work at this level until he's a lot stronger


Some rebuttals:
- Collin just has to pass the ball out to anyone not named Tristan, but he rarely sees anything that isn't directly in his field of view.
- Nobody is going to stay home on shooters when Collin drives *if* he never passes.
- Let's not assume what other people think, unless they've actually said something in public.
- While having 4 quality shooters around a scorer is amazing, few teams have that luxury including the teams beating us night in and night out.
- Garland is CLEARLY better at passing, but his turnovers are a problem, and yes, right now Collin is the more effective scorer. Picking Collin to run these plays isn't the problem, but Collin has to learn he's not playing 1v5.

There will come a point, IMO, when we set Darius loose and let him create in these situations, but at this point he's just getting a little taste of it. Personally, I like his chances better because of his shooting ability and the pace he plays at - trying to win games by driving to the hoop is really hard.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#76 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 8, 2020 8:42 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's what I'm talking about. Defenders will continue to collapse and surround him in the paint if he doesn't have enough awareness to realize someone behind him was left wide open.

Some players have "eyes on the back of their head", Collin does not.

Plus there's a basic synergy involved. Garland was playing with Clarkson on the second unit for just a little while when he realized that if he shifted over to a spot with a clear passing lane that counter to his rep that Clarkson would pass him the ball. If Sexton made it clear that off ball movement would be rewarded, we'd see more of it.

It takes some sacrifice and a fundamental realization that building trust in teammates is even more important than making a shot.

The only way him passing behind him as you put it makes any sense is if he drives in there early in the shot clock and there is time for another pass from the bad shooter he passed it too to Love who may have gotten open at that point. He sees them as lesser optiond aka what they are and is not being told to pass to them so this notion he ignores them or doesn't have eyes in back of his head is only true because he has the green light to do so by this coach. If anything for Beileins system to work 4 out of 5 players have to be reliable enough perimeter shooters that defenses won't leave them. It would have worked better this year with Collin off ball if he could be a knock down shooter like he was in feb march and april
He is however a better choice given several issues to drive into the teeth inside for 1 because he's strong enough to and 2 his shot is bad this season and 3 that's what Beilein wants.4 Garland is not really better at passing or finishing when driving but the coach has been having him running plays to allow him to get the ball to others as a pass first guard despite him wanting to score because he's a scorer not a floor general either. Both are doing what they are told usually but it's Sexton that needs to gamble against coach orders if there is an open teammate and if they make the shot it was worth it, if not there you have it. Garland needs to stick with Beilein plan but he's a little rebel and just wants to be cut loose and I don't blame him but it won't work at this level until he's a lot stronger


Some rebuttals:
- Collin just has to pass the ball out to anyone not named Tristan, but he rarely sees anything that isn't directly in his field of view.
- Nobody is going to stay home on shooters when Collin drives *if* he never passes.
- Let's not assume what other people think, unless they've actually said something in public.
- While having 4 quality shooters around a scorer is amazing, few teams have that luxury including the teams beating us night in and night out.
- Garland is CLEARLY better at passing, but his turnovers are a problem, and yes, right now Collin is the more effective scorer. Picking Collin to run these plays isn't the problem, but Collin has to learn he's not playing 1v5.

There will come a point, IMO, when we set Darius loose and let him create in these situations, but at this point he's just getting a little taste of it. Personally, I like his chances better because of his shooting ability and the pace he plays at - trying to win games by driving to the hoop is really hard.

sorry but neither of you are seeing what is happening exactly not imo...
Garland is a better "floor seeer" and he puts the ball in places where his bigs can get easy finishes but he is far from the "better passer" at this point just because of that, the key difference to me is Sexton does not deserve the criticism and is definitely has to be being told to score first before looking to pass and in doing so must learn to adapt to defenses better than he is which they believe will come eventually because of his work ethic ...but his teammates don't readily knock down shots when they get the ball on drive and kicks from other guards with Sexton not playing so it stands to good reason he doesn't feel in his 2nd year in the NBA that giving up the rock is the better option most of the time even if he has to try to score over 7'ers and often DOES. The add the org clearly agrees with that notion or they would not being letting Beilein use him in these situations as long as they have been given he rarely gives up the rock on drives. Garland knows he cant score inside yet so he tries to dish it out to contribute in some way besides nothing and his shooting is starting to look really good, I am at least confident he can become the starting pg on thsi roster in a couple years if he gets a lot stronger , but I would rather keep the score first Sexton and bring him off the bench long term and draft an upgrade true PG this summer over bringing Sexton off the bench in favor of DG
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#77 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 9:04 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:The only way him passing behind him as you put it makes any sense is if he drives in there early in the shot clock and there is time for another pass from the bad shooter he passed it too to Love who may have gotten open at that point. He sees them as lesser optiond aka what they are and is not being told to pass to them so this notion he ignores them or doesn't have eyes in back of his head is only true because he has the green light to do so by this coach. If anything for Beileins system to work 4 out of 5 players have to be reliable enough perimeter shooters that defenses won't leave them. It would have worked better this year with Collin off ball if he could be a knock down shooter like he was in feb march and april
He is however a better choice given several issues to drive into the teeth inside for 1 because he's strong enough to and 2 his shot is bad this season and 3 that's what Beilein wants.4 Garland is not really better at passing or finishing when driving but the coach has been having him running plays to allow him to get the ball to others as a pass first guard despite him wanting to score because he's a scorer not a floor general either. Both are doing what they are told usually but it's Sexton that needs to gamble against coach orders if there is an open teammate and if they make the shot it was worth it, if not there you have it. Garland needs to stick with Beilein plan but he's a little rebel and just wants to be cut loose and I don't blame him but it won't work at this level until he's a lot stronger


Some rebuttals:
- Collin just has to pass the ball out to anyone not named Tristan, but he rarely sees anything that isn't directly in his field of view.
- Nobody is going to stay home on shooters when Collin drives *if* he never passes.
- Let's not assume what other people think, unless they've actually said something in public.
- While having 4 quality shooters around a scorer is amazing, few teams have that luxury including the teams beating us night in and night out.
- Garland is CLEARLY better at passing, but his turnovers are a problem, and yes, right now Collin is the more effective scorer. Picking Collin to run these plays isn't the problem, but Collin has to learn he's not playing 1v5.

There will come a point, IMO, when we set Darius loose and let him create in these situations, but at this point he's just getting a little taste of it. Personally, I like his chances better because of his shooting ability and the pace he plays at - trying to win games by driving to the hoop is really hard.

sorry but neither of you are seeing what is happening exactly not imo...
Garland is a better "floor seeer" and he puts the ball in places where his bigs can get easy finishes but he is far from the "better passer" at this point just because of that, the key difference to me is Sexton does not deserve the criticism and is definitely has to be being told to score first before looking to pass and in doing so must learn to adapt to defenses better than he is which they believe will come eventually because of his work ethic ...but his teammates don't readily knock down shots when they get the ball on drive and kicks from other guards with Sexton not playing so it stands to good reason he doesn't feel in his 2nd year in the NBA that giving up the rock is the better option most of the time even if he has to try to score over 7'ers and often DOES. The add the org clearly agrees with that notion or they would not being letting Beilein use him in these situations as long as they have been given he rarely gives up the rock on drives. Garland knows he cant score inside yet so he tries to dish it out to contribute in some way besides nothing and his shooting is starting to look really good, I am at least confident he can become the starting pg on thsi roster in a couple years if he gets a lot stronger , but I would rather keep the score first Sexton and bring him off the bench long term and draft an upgrade true PG this summer over bringing Sexton off the bench in favor of DG


We have 9 players who shoot 36% or better on catch and shoot 3's including Sexton himself.

https://stats.nba.com/players/shots-general/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GeneralRange=Catch%20and%20Shoot&TeamID=1610612739&sort=FG3_PCT&dir=1

nba.com also has stats on 3pters by position:

https://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&TeamID=1610612739&sort=Right%20Corner%203%20FG%20PCT&dir=1

and if the small sample size on these numbers mean anything, Garland, Cedi, and Larry are best from the right corner; Collin and Kevin are best from the left corner; and Dante is crushing it (so far) from above the break.

What exactly do you expect?
User avatar
tugs
RealGM
Posts: 13,990
And1: 1,922
Joined: Jul 22, 2010

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#78 » by tugs » Wed Jan 8, 2020 10:51 pm

So how is Collin different from JC now?
JonFromVA
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,876
And1: 1,874
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#79 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 8, 2020 11:30 pm

tugs wrote:So how is Collin different from JC now?


Collin is younger, cheaper, and not as good at it ... but there's always hope with young players that they improve.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 11,627
And1: 2,900
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#80 » by Stillwater » Thu Jan 9, 2020 12:20 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Some rebuttals:
- Collin just has to pass the ball out to anyone not named Tristan, but he rarely sees anything that isn't directly in his field of view.
- Nobody is going to stay home on shooters when Collin drives *if* he never passes.
- Let's not assume what other people think, unless they've actually said something in public.
- While having 4 quality shooters around a scorer is amazing, few teams have that luxury including the teams beating us night in and night out.
- Garland is CLEARLY better at passing, but his turnovers are a problem, and yes, right now Collin is the more effective scorer. Picking Collin to run these plays isn't the problem, but Collin has to learn he's not playing 1v5.

There will come a point, IMO, when we set Darius loose and let him create in these situations, but at this point he's just getting a little taste of it. Personally, I like his chances better because of his shooting ability and the pace he plays at - trying to win games by driving to the hoop is really hard.

sorry but neither of you are seeing what is happening exactly not imo...
Garland is a better "floor seeer" and he puts the ball in places where his bigs can get easy finishes but he is far from the "better passer" at this point just because of that, the key difference to me is Sexton does not deserve the criticism and is definitely has to be being told to score first before looking to pass and in doing so must learn to adapt to defenses better than he is which they believe will come eventually because of his work ethic ...but his teammates don't readily knock down shots when they get the ball on drive and kicks from other guards with Sexton not playing so it stands to good reason he doesn't feel in his 2nd year in the NBA that giving up the rock is the better option most of the time even if he has to try to score over 7'ers and often DOES. The add the org clearly agrees with that notion or they would not being letting Beilein use him in these situations as long as they have been given he rarely gives up the rock on drives. Garland knows he cant score inside yet so he tries to dish it out to contribute in some way besides nothing and his shooting is starting to look really good, I am at least confident he can become the starting pg on thsi roster in a couple years if he gets a lot stronger , but I would rather keep the score first Sexton and bring him off the bench long term and draft an upgrade true PG this summer over bringing Sexton off the bench in favor of DG


We have 9 players who shoot 36% or better on catch and shoot 3's including Sexton himself.

https://stats.nba.com/players/shots-general/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GeneralRange=Catch%20and%20Shoot&TeamID=1610612739&sort=FG3_PCT&dir=1

nba.com also has stats on 3pters by position:

https://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&TeamID=1610612739&sort=Right%20Corner%203%20FG%20PCT&dir=1

and if the small sample size on these numbers mean anything, Garland, Cedi, and Larry are best from the right corner; Collin and Kevin are best from the left corner; and Dante is crushing it (so far) from above the break.

What exactly do you expect?

better cutting, better return fire , 3rd pass options creating lanes ,Garland running with Sexton , at least 1 more 50% shooter with noone on them etc.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers