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Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET

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Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#1 » by ducler » Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:58 pm

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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#2 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 5, 2019 1:48 am

Well 1 more loss and the 3rd seed is a lock if it isn't already.
Unlikely we can get a tie with Phoenix for a chance at the 2 now with Booker hurt reducing their odds of pulling an upset.
Cavs can win 2 out of 4 and still have that 3rd spot so I think we're good.
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#3 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 5, 2019 4:17 am

were gonna get Zion...I can feel it
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#4 » by Revenged25 » Fri Apr 5, 2019 11:59 am

Stillwater wrote:were gonna get Zion...I can feel it


Although I love his defensive ability, I still really hate his fit with the players on this team as we need more ball movement and shooting since whenever Love is out of the line-up almost everyone seems to be a blackhole on offense. If we get the #1 pick we should listen to any and all offers that involve a top 3 pick and more assets. For example if Atlanta got a top 3 pick with their own and wanted Zion more than anything else, see if they'll toss in Dallas' pick as well and give them Zion for what would be Morant/Barrett and another top prospect. If a deal doesn't involve value comparable to a top 3 pick and another lottery pick, I would consider players like Beal, Mitchell, Booker, etc at that same level though obviously not the direction we are going, then we just take Zion and figure out the fit. Like his reliance on his athleticism and size advantage really scares me for his long term effectiveness in the NBA.
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#5 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 5, 2019 12:31 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:were gonna get Zion...I can feel it


Although I love his defensive ability, I still really hate his fit with the players on this team as we need more ball movement and shooting since whenever Love is out of the line-up almost everyone seems to be a blackhole on offense. If we get the #1 pick we should listen to any and all offers that involve a top 3 pick and more assets. For example if Atlanta got a top 3 pick with their own and wanted Zion more than anything else, see if they'll toss in Dallas' pick as well and give them Zion for what would be Morant/Barrett and another top prospect. If a deal doesn't involve value comparable to a top 3 pick and another lottery pick, I would consider players like Beal, Mitchell, Booker, etc at that same level though obviously not the direction we are going, then we just take Zion and figure out the fit. Like his reliance on his athleticism and size advantage really scares me for his long term effectiveness in the NBA.

The risk of injury due to explosive play style is not a legit reason to even consider trading down no matter who or how much was offered in return value. I wouldn't take KD, AD or Embiid in a trade for Zion . Call me crazy, but I envision a point forward like Simmons or LeBron who's shooting willi improve somewhat,but won't negate his all nba level status not being a great shooter.
Altman would trade Love Sexton and the entire roster before he let's Zion destroy the Cavs for the next 7 seasons
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#6 » by Revenged25 » Fri Apr 5, 2019 2:31 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:were gonna get Zion...I can feel it


Although I love his defensive ability, I still really hate his fit with the players on this team as we need more ball movement and shooting since whenever Love is out of the line-up almost everyone seems to be a blackhole on offense. If we get the #1 pick we should listen to any and all offers that involve a top 3 pick and more assets. For example if Atlanta got a top 3 pick with their own and wanted Zion more than anything else, see if they'll toss in Dallas' pick as well and give them Zion for what would be Morant/Barrett and another top prospect. If a deal doesn't involve value comparable to a top 3 pick and another lottery pick, I would consider players like Beal, Mitchell, Booker, etc at that same level though obviously not the direction we are going, then we just take Zion and figure out the fit. Like his reliance on his athleticism and size advantage really scares me for his long term effectiveness in the NBA.

The risk of injury due to explosive play style is not a legit reason to even consider trading down no matter who or how much was offered in return value. I wouldn't take KD, AD or Embiid in a trade for Zion . Call me crazy, but I envision a point forward like Simmons or LeBron who's shooting willi improve somewhat,but won't negate his all nba level status not being a great shooter.
Altman would trade Love Sexton and the entire roster before he let's Zion destroy the Cavs for the next 7 seasons


I don't think Zion is anywhere close to a point forward as I don't think his handles or his passing are good enough to play that position. Also it's not injury due to explosive playstyle, it's injury due to his build and his reliance on his athleticism to have that explosive playstyle. If he can drop and play at about 240-260 I'd be less concerned and that he'd be a weird mix of Ibaka/Blake Griffin, but until then I just see an extreme athlete mixed with the injury concerns associated with bigs playing at their size for 82 games a year.
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#7 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 5, 2019 3:01 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Although I love his defensive ability, I still really hate his fit with the players on this team as we need more ball movement and shooting since whenever Love is out of the line-up almost everyone seems to be a blackhole on offense. If we get the #1 pick we should listen to any and all offers that involve a top 3 pick and more assets. For example if Atlanta got a top 3 pick with their own and wanted Zion more than anything else, see if they'll toss in Dallas' pick as well and give them Zion for what would be Morant/Barrett and another top prospect. If a deal doesn't involve value comparable to a top 3 pick and another lottery pick, I would consider players like Beal, Mitchell, Booker, etc at that same level though obviously not the direction we are going, then we just take Zion and figure out the fit. Like his reliance on his athleticism and size advantage really scares me for his long term effectiveness in the NBA.

The risk of injury due to explosive play style is not a legit reason to even consider trading down no matter who or how much was offered in return value. I wouldn't take KD, AD or Embiid in a trade for Zion . Call me crazy, but I envision a point forward like Simmons or LeBron who's shooting willi improve somewhat,but won't negate his all nba level status not being a great shooter.
Altman would trade Love Sexton and the entire roster before he let's Zion destroy the Cavs for the next 7 seasons


I don't think Zion is anywhere close to a point forward as I don't think his handles or his passing are good enough to play that position. Also it's not injury due to explosive playstyle, it's injury due to his build and his reliance on his athleticism to have that explosive playstyle. If he can drop and play at about 240-260 I'd be less concerned and that he'd be a weird mix of Ibaka/Blake Griffin, but until then I just see an extreme athlete mixed with the injury concerns associated with bigs playing at their size for 82 games a year.

You can't be that naive...he's an elite passer an elite defender and obviously an elite athlete. You don't pass on that for somebody who doesn't come close to the same ceiling of potential for any reason. Maybe you think ja or rj have similar ceilings but they'd have to get both of them and a first before they give up the chance to draft a generational player which exactly what Zion will prove to be
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#8 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 5, 2019 5:41 pm

Just some stats for you : Zion posted a box +- of 20 which is the highest ever since they started recording it better than AD,KAT etc both all nba players.
He is also the only DIV 1 player who logged more than 400 minutes to ever record a PER over 40 at 40.8
He averaged 22/9/2/2/2. Those stats are ridiculous.
in contrast
Zion PER 40.8 / box+- 20 / dbpm 7.2
Ja Morant PER 31.6 / box+- 9.9 / dbpm 2.0
RJ Barrett PER 23.3 / box+- 7.7 / dbpm 2.4
Culver PER 26.1 / box+- 11.9 / dbpm 5.7
Reddish PER 13.6 / box+- 4.7 / dbpm 2.7
Bol ( in 268 minutes logged) PER 37.5 / box +- 11.5 / dbpm 7.0
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#9 » by Revenged25 » Fri Apr 5, 2019 7:27 pm

Stillwater wrote:Just some stats for you : Zion posted a box +- of 20 which is the highest ever since they started recording it better than AD,KAT etc both all nba players.
He is also the only DIV 1 player who logged more than 400 minutes to ever record a PER over 40 at 40.8
He averaged 22/9/2/2/2. Those stats are ridiculous.
in contrast
Zion PER 40.8 / box+- 20 / dbpm 7.2
Ja Morant PER 31.6 / box+- 9.9 / dbpm 2.0
RJ Barrett PER 23.3 / box+- 7.7 / dbpm 2.4
Culver PER 26.1 / box+- 11.9 / dbpm 5.7
Reddish PER 13.6 / box+- 4.7 / dbpm 2.7
Bol ( in 268 minutes logged) PER 37.5 / box +- 11.5 / dbpm 7.0


Don't get me wrong, I'd still be happy with Zion, but I just don't think he will be the type of player you think he will be (he's not a Point Forward), I have concerns about how he will fit in the NBA/Cavs though it can be overcome with the right pieces added, and his potential long term health playing at the weight he does over the of 82 games and multiple seasons. With that I think Morant and Barrett are close enough as prospects, especially with how their games should translate to the NBA game, that if there is a trade involve either of them + more assets (minimum top 10 pick quality) that you need to really consider it.

If you told me that he's dedicated to playing at about 260lbs in the NBA, 99% of my concerns about Zion would be gone.
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Re: Game 79: Cleveland Cavaliers (19-59) @ Sacramento Kings (38-40) - 10:00 PM ET 

Post#10 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 5, 2019 10:14 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Just some stats for you : Zion posted a box +- of 20 which is the highest ever since they started recording it better than AD,KAT etc both all nba players.
He is also the only DIV 1 player who logged more than 400 minutes to ever record a PER over 40 at 40.8
He averaged 22/9/2/2/2. Those stats are ridiculous.
in contrast
Zion PER 40.8 / box+- 20 / dbpm 7.2
Ja Morant PER 31.6 / box+- 9.9 / dbpm 2.0
RJ Barrett PER 23.3 / box+- 7.7 / dbpm 2.4
Culver PER 26.1 / box+- 11.9 / dbpm 5.7
Reddish PER 13.6 / box+- 4.7 / dbpm 2.7
Bol ( in 268 minutes logged) PER 37.5 / box +- 11.5 / dbpm 7.0


Don't get me wrong, I'd still be happy with Zion, but I just don't think he will be the type of player you think he will be (he's not a Point Forward), I have concerns about how he will fit in the NBA/Cavs though it can be overcome with the right pieces added, and his potential long term health playing at the weight he does over the of 82 games and multiple seasons. With that I think Morant and Barrett are close enough as prospects, especially with how their games should translate to the NBA game, that if there is a trade involve either of them + more assets (minimum top 10 pick quality) that you need to really consider it.

If you told me that he's dedicated to playing at about 260lbs in the NBA, 99% of my concerns about Zion would be gone.

Regardless of if he is a point forward or not, his abilty to pass is elite even if the vision isn't yet...it's very good for a forward.
I am not too concerned about the weight as he will definitely be in even better condition once he gets to world class facilities w/ supreme nutricionists etc.
My suggestion is never overthink yourself out of the clear best prospect esp when your roster or most of it is a fa by 2020.
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