Cavs Logjam of Guards

[JonFromVA]

The concern I have of moving Collin is that it's obvious that at worst he's going to end up being an elite 6th man in the NBA. Improving defense and the ability to just score with unrelenting drive to improve. We aren't going to get nearly what his value will be in even 2 years of improvement, so why make the move now?

Yeah, on the surface we'd likely get hosed on a trade, but if we trade him it's going to be about system & fit, and that can potentially make up for whatever raw numbers we lose in the deal.

what system & fit can you find that's less valuable than an eventual elite 6th man would be worth it?

Well, I like to presume that people making decisions are thinking things, through. So, I'm just guessing what their motivation might be to trade Collin in the first place:

1) The simple answer would be that there are chemistry issues having him on the team - aka his teammates don't like him, and they don't think it's something that can be fixed by trading those teammates or Collin maturing. We have hints this could be an issue, we also have some public denials.

2) The more complex answer comes down to how Beilein sees the team functioning. Yes, the Cavs could slap together a second unit that would feature Collin as their super-6th man. It's been done, it could be done, it's a potential solution if it's decided that Collin and Darius need to be separated (more than they already are by staggering their minutes). But Beilein may object to what would basically be assembling two teams - one that fits around Darius and another that fits around Collin.

So, what would we need to do so the whole team from Cleveland to Canton are running the same system, and when we plug someone in to it at any position, it continues to run just the same? We wouldn't have units in this case, just roles that different players on the roster fill.

Well, the answer may be to trade players who in JB and KA's opinion would not have a role for players/picks that would.

Now, we were told JB was not a rigid system coach and could adapt to his personnel, but this early in the rebuild it makes sense to build on a "solid foundation" ... and what they would had have to decide is that Collin is not a "building block".

So, where's the payoff?

It would have to come from the system actually running correctly for 48 minutes.

Of course we may just decide to continue giving Collin time to grow and just dump any vets who are tired of waiting for kids to learn how to win.

Either way, we'll get some hints on their thinking soon enough.

[Revenged25]

Yeah that's just horrible. Even systems need elite players and trading a potentially elite 6th man for "system" is just going to fail.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah that's just horrible. Even systems need elite players and trading a potentially elite 6th man for "system" is just going to fail.

You need to keep in mind what Collin will be getting paid in a couple of years when his rookie deal is up to fill that role, and hope he can turn the corner and actually be part of a unit that can hold their own or outscore their opponent.

Back in the day, we used to bleed points when we sat LeBron and let Kyrie run the second unit *unless* he was enfuego.

The ability to put up massive points is not enough.

[Stillwater]

Yeah, on the surface we'd likely get hosed on a trade, but if we trade him it's going to be about system & fit, and that can potentially make up for whatever raw numbers we lose in the deal.

what system & fit can you find that's less valuable than an eventual elite 6th man would be worth it?

Well, I like to presume that people making decisions are thinking things, through. So, I'm just guessing what their motivation might be to trade Collin in the first place:

1) The simple answer would be that there are chemistry issues having him on the team - aka his teammates don't like him, and they don't think it's something that can be fixed by trading those teammates or Collin maturing. We have hints this could be an issue, we also have some public denials.

2) The more complex answer comes down to how Beilein sees the team functioning. Yes, the Cavs could slap together a second unit that would feature Collin as their super-6th man. It's been done, it could be done, it's a potential solution if it's decided that Collin and Darius need to be separated (more than they already are by staggering their minutes). But Beilein may object to what would basically be assembling two teams - one that fits around Darius and another that fits around Collin.

So, what would we need to do so the whole team from Cleveland to Canton are running the same system, and when we plug someone in to it at any position, it continues to run just the same? We wouldn't have units in this case, just roles that different players on the roster fill.

Well, the answer may be to trade players who in JB and KA's opinion would not have a role for players/picks that would.

Now, we were told JB was not a rigid system coach and could adapt to his personnel, but this early in the rebuild it makes sense to build on a "solid foundation" ... and what they would had have to decide is that Collin is not a "building block".

So, where's the payoff?

It would have to come from the system actually running correctly for 48 minutes.

Of course we may just decide to continue giving Collin time to grow and just dump any vets who are tired of waiting for kids to learn how to win.

Either way, we'll get some hints on their thinking soon enough.

His teammates do like him , what they don't like is the coach wanting Sexton to "hunt for his shot" while they are left scratching their asses esp when there is a clear opportunity to score from him passing but he drives inside and gets blocked enough where fans think it's all on him. The truth is his ass scratching teammates don't move well enough without the ball when he has it to allow him opportunity to get it to them as a better option than himself. Garland is being told to give up the rock not hunt for his shot and so with his teammates anticipatory of getting more usage are motivated to play better off ball and happier with him at the helm.
Sexton is not getting traded as is which is an unfinished product, there are no me first issues with him beyond being told to do what he do by Beilein despite what frustrations some one foot out the door vets have said or are suggesting.

[Revenged25]

Yeah that's just horrible. Even systems need elite players and trading a potentially elite 6th man for "system" is just going to fail.

You need to keep in mind what Collin will be getting paid in a couple of years when his rookie deal is up to fill that role, and hope he can turn the corner and actually be part of a unit that can hold their own or outscore their opponent.

Back in the day, we used to bleed points when we sat LeBron and let Kyrie run the second unit *unless* he was enfuego.

The ability to put up massive points is not enough.

Kyrie played 0 defense and never tried to improve defensively, he was all-in offensively. Sexton is improving defensively and wants to continue to improve defensively. Also in a couple years Sexton will have developed even more so we can get more value out of a trade for him or he'll have turned the corner so we won't care about his looming extension. Trading Sexton right now who has shown some amazing potential is stupid when you aren't going to get the value to make it worthwhile.

The absolute MINIMUM that I would need as an offer to even consider moving Sexton for would be Bamba + 2 2nds. At least in this instance Bamba has shown flashes of being an elite rim protector so making that move would be reasonable. Less than that and it's not even worth considering.

[JonFromVA]

what system & fit can you find that's less valuable than an eventual elite 6th man would be worth it?

Well, I like to presume that people making decisions are thinking things, through. So, I'm just guessing what their motivation might be to trade Collin in the first place:

1) The simple answer would be that there are chemistry issues having him on the team - aka his teammates don't like him, and they don't think it's something that can be fixed by trading those teammates or Collin maturing. We have hints this could be an issue, we also have some public denials.

2) The more complex answer comes down to how Beilein sees the team functioning. Yes, the Cavs could slap together a second unit that would feature Collin as their super-6th man. It's been done, it could be done, it's a potential solution if it's decided that Collin and Darius need to be separated (more than they already are by staggering their minutes). But Beilein may object to what would basically be assembling two teams - one that fits around Darius and another that fits around Collin.

So, what would we need to do so the whole team from Cleveland to Canton are running the same system, and when we plug someone in to it at any position, it continues to run just the same? We wouldn't have units in this case, just roles that different players on the roster fill.

Well, the answer may be to trade players who in JB and KA's opinion would not have a role for players/picks that would.

Now, we were told JB was not a rigid system coach and could adapt to his personnel, but this early in the rebuild it makes sense to build on a "solid foundation" ... and what they would had have to decide is that Collin is not a "building block".

So, where's the payoff?

It would have to come from the system actually running correctly for 48 minutes.

Of course we may just decide to continue giving Collin time to grow and just dump any vets who are tired of waiting for kids to learn how to win.

Either way, we'll get some hints on their thinking soon enough.

His teammates do like him , what they don't like is the coach wanting Sexton to "hunt for his shot" while they are left scratching their asses esp when there is a clear opportunity to score from him passing but he drives inside and gets blocked enough where fans think it's all on him. The truth is his ass scratching teammates don't move well enough without the ball when he has it to allow him opportunity to get it to them as a better option than himself. Garland is being told to give up the rock not hunt for his shot and so with his teammates anticipatory of getting more usage are motivated to play better off ball and happier with him at the helm.
Sexton is not getting traded as is which is an unfinished product, there are no me first issues with him beyond being told to do what he do by Beilein despite what frustrations some one foot out the door vets have said or are suggesting.

Unless you care to clue us in to something you know, that's just one possibility of many looking in from the outside.

I'm still thinking we may get some clarity on what the FO thinks by the trade deadline, but alas another possibility is they don't feel they have a good deal on the table and instead decide to tread water.

[Stillwater]

Well, I like to presume that people making decisions are thinking things, through. So, I'm just guessing what their motivation might be to trade Collin in the first place:

1) The simple answer would be that there are chemistry issues having him on the team - aka his teammates don't like him, and they don't think it's something that can be fixed by trading those teammates or Collin maturing. We have hints this could be an issue, we also have some public denials.

2) The more complex answer comes down to how Beilein sees the team functioning. Yes, the Cavs could slap together a second unit that would feature Collin as their super-6th man. It's been done, it could be done, it's a potential solution if it's decided that Collin and Darius need to be separated (more than they already are by staggering their minutes). But Beilein may object to what would basically be assembling two teams - one that fits around Darius and another that fits around Collin.

So, what would we need to do so the whole team from Cleveland to Canton are running the same system, and when we plug someone in to it at any position, it continues to run just the same? We wouldn't have units in this case, just roles that different players on the roster fill.

Well, the answer may be to trade players who in JB and KA's opinion would not have a role for players/picks that would.

Now, we were told JB was not a rigid system coach and could adapt to his personnel, but this early in the rebuild it makes sense to build on a "solid foundation" ... and what they would had have to decide is that Collin is not a "building block".

So, where's the payoff?

It would have to come from the system actually running correctly for 48 minutes.

Of course we may just decide to continue giving Collin time to grow and just dump any vets who are tired of waiting for kids to learn how to win.

Either way, we'll get some hints on their thinking soon enough.

His teammates do like him , what they don't like is the coach wanting Sexton to "hunt for his shot" while they are left scratching their asses esp when there is a clear opportunity to score from him passing but he drives inside and gets blocked enough where fans think it's all on him. The truth is his ass scratching teammates don't move well enough without the ball when he has it to allow him opportunity to get it to them as a better option than himself. Garland is being told to give up the rock not hunt for his shot and so with his teammates anticipatory of getting more usage are motivated to play better off ball and happier with him at the helm.
Sexton is not getting traded as is which is an unfinished product, there are no me first issues with him beyond being told to do what he do by Beilein despite what frustrations some one foot out the door vets have said or are suggesting.

Unless you care to clue us in to something you know, that's just one possibility of many looking in from the outside.

I'm still thinking we may get some clarity on what the FO thinks by the trade deadline, but alas another possibility is they don't feel they have a good deal on the table and instead decide to tread water.

there have been absolutely zero legitimate rumors of the Cavs organization wanting to trade Collin Sexton...

[JonFromVA]

His teammates do like him , what they don't like is the coach wanting Sexton to "hunt for his shot" while they are left scratching their asses esp when there is a clear opportunity to score from him passing but he drives inside and gets blocked enough where fans think it's all on him. The truth is his ass scratching teammates don't move well enough without the ball when he has it to allow him opportunity to get it to them as a better option than himself. Garland is being told to give up the rock not hunt for his shot and so with his teammates anticipatory of getting more usage are motivated to play better off ball and happier with him at the helm.
Sexton is not getting traded as is which is an unfinished product, there are no me first issues with him beyond being told to do what he do by Beilein despite what frustrations some one foot out the door vets have said or are suggesting.

Unless you care to clue us in to something you know, that's just one possibility of many looking in from the outside.

I'm still thinking we may get some clarity on what the FO thinks by the trade deadline, but alas another possibility is they don't feel they have a good deal on the table and instead decide to tread water.

there have been absolutely zero legitimate rumors of the Cavs organization wanting to trade Collin Sexton...

What would you consider legitimate?

According to Jason Lloyd the Cavs have made everyone on the team available except for Darius Garland. I've hear similar from others but with KPJ on the will not trade list.

Sure, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to trade Collin, just they will for the right deal.

But come on man, let's review the situation:

1) Are the Cavs happy with Collin as their PG of the future? Clearly, no. They drafted Garland.
2) Has Sexton shown since that he should be their PG of the future? Clearly, no. They're emphasizing Garland.
3) How has the two guard backcourt been working out? It's had some moments, but they've been playing the two separate a lot.
4) How does Collin look potentially as a 6th man? Not great so far, the second unit runs a lot better with Garland.

The only question left in my mind is how much when push comes to shove will the Cavs ask for Sexton? Will they move him to move him? Or will they only pull the trigger on a deal that would minimally save "face" for the organization. Maybe we don't get a lottery pick, but we get a young player in return, or some seconds or something.

Jarrett Culver got off to a crappy start to his rookie season, but has been coming on of late. Supposedly the TWolves were hoping that Garland would fall to them, but would they consider Sexton?

That's the kind of deal that Cavs fans would likely be happy with, but I doubt the TWolves would pull the trigger. The TWolves seemed to be focused on D'Angelo Russell.

[Stillwater]

Unless you care to clue us in to something you know, that's just one possibility of many looking in from the outside.

I'm still thinking we may get some clarity on what the FO thinks by the trade deadline, but alas another possibility is they don't feel they have a good deal on the table and instead decide to tread water.

there have been absolutely zero legitimate rumors of the Cavs organization wanting to trade Collin Sexton...

What would you consider legitimate?

According to Jason Lloyd the Cavs have made everyone on the team available except for Darius Garland. I've hear similar from others but with KPJ on the will not trade list.

Sure, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to trade Collin, just they will for the right deal.

But come on man, let's review the situation:

1) Are the Cavs happy with Collin as their PG of the future? Clearly, no. They drafted Garland.
2) Has Sexton shown since that he should be their PG of the future? Clearly, no. They're emphasizing Garland.
3) How has the two guard backcourt been working out? It's had some moments, but they've been playing the two separate a lot.
4) How does Collin look potentially as a 6th man? Not great so far, the second unit runs a lot better with Garland.

The only question left in my mind is how much when push comes to shove will the Cavs ask for Sexton? Will they move him to move him? Or will they only pull the trigger on a deal that would minimally save "face" for the organization. Maybe we don't get a lottery pick, but we get a young player in return, or some seconds or something.

Jarrett Culver got off to a crappy start to his rookie season, but has been coming on of late. Supposedly the TWolves were hoping that Garland would fall to them, but would they consider Sexton?

That's the kind of deal that Cavs fans would likely be happy with, but I doubt the TWolves would pull the trigger. The TWolves seemed to be focused on D'Angelo Russell.

Sarcastic response required: Why don't you just assume every player that is being developed for 3+ years after being drafted on this roster to be available then if they don't meet your criteria for approval on your timeline for them
you are looking at it all wrong as far as I can gather from your takes about the situation.
Sexton was taken for a plethora of reasons but the key one being his motor,and they knew he was not a true pg.
Garland was taken as the BPA and was considered a really solid floor general by a lot of scouts which was based on numerous years of scouting him in HS and AAU and they felt the two could coexist .Garland was not drafted to replace Sexton at all .
Sexton is still a couple years away from hitting his peak and giving him up now is foolish.
Garland may be a lot closer to his ceiling already given his skill is pretty much pro level, but his athletic ability is less than average across the league and he will s\probably continue to struggle to get it done pretty soon here when teams start paying him more attn then the recent stretch of games when they were not.
I would not trade Sexton for fit issues ever, if for no other reason than because if Garland gets hurt again,or worse doesn't ever become a solid defender to the point they never make the playoffs in the next 4 years he will go into hero mode all the time becoming the same player you detest Sexton for being yet somehow keep ignoring the fact the Coach has repeatedly said Sexton is being told to score.
He needs to get his shot to start falling again to play off ball, so if it were me I would consider bringing him off the bench for awhile after KPJ is back and can play the 2 with DG in the sl. as long as Sexton can do his thing off the bench the same as he is now, he is worth retaining longterm... right now he is worth retaining for another full season after this one regardless.

[JonFromVA]

there have been absolutely zero legitimate rumors of the Cavs organization wanting to trade Collin Sexton...

What would you consider legitimate?

According to Jason Lloyd the Cavs have made everyone on the team available except for Darius Garland. I've hear similar from others but with KPJ on the will not trade list.

Sure, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to trade Collin, just they will for the right deal.

But come on man, let's review the situation:

1) Are the Cavs happy with Collin as their PG of the future? Clearly, no. They drafted Garland.
2) Has Sexton shown since that he should be their PG of the future? Clearly, no. They're emphasizing Garland.
3) How has the two guard backcourt been working out? It's had some moments, but they've been playing the two separate a lot.
4) How does Collin look potentially as a 6th man? Not great so far, the second unit runs a lot better with Garland.

The only question left in my mind is how much when push comes to shove will the Cavs ask for Sexton? Will they move him to move him? Or will they only pull the trigger on a deal that would minimally save "face" for the organization. Maybe we don't get a lottery pick, but we get a young player in return, or some seconds or something.

Jarrett Culver got off to a crappy start to his rookie season, but has been coming on of late. Supposedly the TWolves were hoping that Garland would fall to them, but would they consider Sexton?

That's the kind of deal that Cavs fans would likely be happy with, but I doubt the TWolves would pull the trigger. The TWolves seemed to be focused on D'Angelo Russell.

Sarcastic response required: Why don't you just assume every player that is being developed for 3+ years after being drafted on this roster to be available then if they don't meet your criteria for approval on your timeline for them
you are looking at it all wrong as far as I can gather from your takes about the situation.
Sexton was taken for a plethora of reasons but the key one being his motor,and they knew he was not a true pg.
Garland was taken as the BPA and was considered a really solid floor general by a lot of scouts which was based on numerous years of scouting him in HS and AAU and they felt the two could coexist .Garland was not drafted to replace Sexton at all .
Sexton is still a couple years away from hitting his peak and giving him up now is foolish.
Garland may be a lot closer to his ceiling already given his skill is pretty much pro level, but his athletic ability is less than average across the league and he will s\probably continue to struggle to get it done pretty soon here when teams start paying him more attn then the recent stretch of games when they were not.
I would not trade Sexton for fit issues ever, if for no other reason than because if Garland gets hurt again,or worse doesn't ever become a solid defender to the point they never make the playoffs in the next 4 years he will go into hero mode all the time becoming the same player you detest Sexton for being yet somehow keep ignoring the fact the Coach has repeatedly said Sexton is being told to score.
He needs to get his shot to start falling again to play off ball, so if it were me I would consider bringing him off the bench for awhile after KPJ is back and can play the 2 with DG in the sl. as long as Sexton can do his thing off the bench the same as he is now, he is worth retaining longterm... right now he is worth retaining for another full season after this one regardless.

Hey man .. we were having a nice discussion, then you start attributing opinions to me I didn't make?

What the heck.

We can continue if you wish when you've had a break ...

I've never written Collin off. I'm just trying to explain why the Cavaliers might ..

[Stillwater]

^ hey maybe I misunderstood but listing 4 non factual proposals as to why CLE might move him seems like a reach.
They are tanking which is another way of saying committed to player developing at the expense of winning or even trying to win.
The older players talk like they are leading and are trying to be good soldiers but the fact is none of them should be here after this season and any fit issues they see with Garland and Sexton are unimportant as neither is legitimate as a starter at this stage in their developing.
I would have no problem for instance taking Edwards who will be a James Harden level ball hog this summer if he's the bpa even though it equates to bad fits with other ball dominant guards.
I would rather they took a true off ball prospect and sped this process up but there really are none worthy of the lottery and so another ball dominant player regardless of position is going to require a couple seasons to be molded into a good fit if they stay the course just like all the current young players are being molded.
When you draft high upside it rarely = high floor and you have to be patient, but you also cannot ignore that sometimes egos get in the way, luckily the only ones so far are vets who want Rubio or LeBron as their pg

[jbk1234]

^ hey maybe I misunderstood but listing 4 non factual proposals as to why CLE might move him seems like a reach.
They are tanking which is another way of saying committed to player developing at the expense of winning or even trying to win.
The older players talk like they are leading and are trying to be good soldiers but the fact is none of them should be here after this season and any fit issues they see with Garland and Sexton are unimportant as neither is legitimate as a starter at this stage in their developing.
I would have no problem for instance taking Edwards who will be a James Harden level ball hog this summer if he's the bpa even though it equates to bad fits with other ball dominant guards.
I would rather they took a true off ball prospect and sped this process up but there really are none worthy of the lottery and so another ball dominant player regardless of position is going to require a couple seasons to be molded into a good fit if they stay the course just like all the current young players are being molded.
When you draft high upside it rarely = high floor and you have to be patient, but you also cannot ignore that sometimes egos get in the way, luckily the only ones so far are vets who want Rubio or LeBron as their pg

Okay, I'm locking this thread up. First off, neither sarcastic responses nor personal attackss are ever required. Second, the line between what is a statement of fact and a statement of opinion isn't always crystal clear on an opinion board. It certainly isn't clear in this exchange. If you believe that someone is making a statement of opinion and presenting it as a statement of fact, the correct way to respond to that is to explain why you believe they're presenting a statement of opinion. Obviously, Sexton is a very polarizing figure among the Cavs fan base. If you can't handle people disagreeing with your assessment of the young man, don't open the thread or don't post about it. If you feel yourself getting too upset about it continue the discussion in a respectful way, take a break.