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Cavs Logjam of Guards

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JonFromVA
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#41 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:He has to believe, himself, that he's doing something wrong in order to improve. I see zero evidence of that. I don't think making the right play, keeping his teammates involved, and/or winning will ever be more important than getting his.

But he's already cratered Love's trade value and I'm angry not only at him, but the organization, for that. To the extent that he doesn't understand it because the team hasn't been clear, or hasn't imposed consequences, that's on the Cavs.


It's just one game, but Sexton made some decent decisions in the Denver game. As I've said before, I believe he struggles to keep track of what's going on around him (especially to the sides and behind him) and that he needs to trust that open guy in the corner even when that guy misses shots; but that doesn't preclude him figuring things out from experience, scheme, and constant feedback from the coaching staff.

The only question is how much patience do we have?

In my book, based on his age/experience, I think the answer should be a lot; but there's certainly a lot more to it than we as fans get to see.

Heck, I find it fascinating that the recent bruhaha between Love and Beilein was because Sexton was running the play he was being asked to run rather than breaking it off and posting up Love who had position on CP3.

I'm not used to players who actually do what the coach asks ...


To the extent he's doing anything, he's doing the bare minimum and only after 90% of the fan base is screaming to move him to a sixth man role on social media. Watch the fourth quarter of the Denver game again, particularly the exchanges between Love and Sexton when Love is getting a mismatch on the block after Denver switches.

I remain deeply skeptical that this is a matter of Sexton failing to see the open guy or not understanding what the correct basketball play is. In that Pistons loss when Love scored 30 and barely touched the ball in the 4th quarter, Sexton dismissed it as having to move on to the second option (meaning him) because the Pistons were keying on Love.

The issue isn't how much patience we as the fans have, it's how patience the organization has and whether they've already erred.
Even if the Cavs manage to find an acceptable trade for Love before the deadline, and I'm skeptical at this point, then what's the plan going forward with Sexton? It better not be surround him with inferior players and then hope against hope that he plays team ball on a truly bad team.

Teams send lottery picks to the G League now. They bring lottery picks off the bench all the time. Unearned starters minutes on a rebuilding team is one thing, but when bad habits aren't changing in a guy's second year, to the detriment of the other starters, it should be an easy call.


Altman's job is to put together the best possible team. If he thinks he can do that by trading ANYONE he should pull the trigger. So, he needs to determine the relative value of what we have .vs. what we can get in trade. Hence his "patience" might be measured in days or decades. Not much we can do about that.

Some fan patience, otoh, makes the message boards a more pleasant place.

We don't have to like Altman's choices, we can point out when player's are struggling, and we can even harbor fears they won't improve significantly; but presumably we all want these guys to learn, grow, and help our team win a lot of games. It's not a lot of fun to sour things about these players to the point we hope they fail so they prove we're right.

So, while I've said over and over that player development is job #1 for this team, I recognize that I'm not working with these guys, I'm not familiar with their plan for them or their goals. I don't know where they've met expectations or where they've been stubborn or perhaps even downright beligerent. I've suggested myself maybe the Cavs are using too many carrots and not enough sticks, but I'm not going to pretend I'm right unless I knew a heck of a lot more about what was going on and the personality of these guys.

Stuff leaked out about Kyrie that made it very clear what he was all about. I've just not seen the same with this group. So, I'm going to keep hoping and looking for signs that Collin, Darius, KPJ, etc, can expand their games until they're no longer wearing wine & gold.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#42 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
It's just one game, but Sexton made some decent decisions in the Denver game. As I've said before, I believe he struggles to keep track of what's going on around him (especially to the sides and behind him) and that he needs to trust that open guy in the corner even when that guy misses shots; but that doesn't preclude him figuring things out from experience, scheme, and constant feedback from the coaching staff.

The only question is how much patience do we have?

In my book, based on his age/experience, I think the answer should be a lot; but there's certainly a lot more to it than we as fans get to see.

Heck, I find it fascinating that the recent bruhaha between Love and Beilein was because Sexton was running the play he was being asked to run rather than breaking it off and posting up Love who had position on CP3.

I'm not used to players who actually do what the coach asks ...


To the extent he's doing anything, he's doing the bare minimum and only after 90% of the fan base is screaming to move him to a sixth man role on social media. Watch the fourth quarter of the Denver game again, particularly the exchanges between Love and Sexton when Love is getting a mismatch on the block after Denver switches.

I remain deeply skeptical that this is a matter of Sexton failing to see the open guy or not understanding what the correct basketball play is. In that Pistons loss when Love scored 30 and barely touched the ball in the 4th quarter, Sexton dismissed it as having to move on to the second option (meaning him) because the Pistons were keying on Love.

The issue isn't how much patience we as the fans have, it's how patience the organization has and whether they've already erred.
Even if the Cavs manage to find an acceptable trade for Love before the deadline, and I'm skeptical at this point, then what's the plan going forward with Sexton? It better not be surround him with inferior players and then hope against hope that he plays team ball on a truly bad team.

Teams send lottery picks to the G League now. They bring lottery picks off the bench all the time. Unearned starters minutes on a rebuilding team is one thing, but when bad habits aren't changing in a guy's second year, to the detriment of the other starters, it should be an easy call.


Altman's job is to put together the best possible team. If he thinks he can do that by trading ANYONE he should pull the trigger. So, he needs to determine the relative value of what we have .vs. what we can get in trade. Hence his "patience" might be measured in days or decades. Not much we can do about that.

Some fan patience, otoh, makes the message boards a more pleasant place.

We don't have to like Altman's choices, we can point out when player's are struggling, and we can even harbor fears they won't improve significantly; but presumably we all want these guys to learn, grow, and help our team win a lot of games. It's not a lot of fun to sour things about these players to the point we hope they fail so they prove we're right.

So, while I've said over and over that player development is job #1 for this team, I recognize that I'm not working with these guys, I'm not familiar with their plan for them or their goals. I don't know where they've met expectations or where they've been stubborn or perhaps even downright beligerent. I've suggested myself maybe the Cavs are using too many carrots and not enough sticks, but I'm not going to pretend I'm right unless I knew a heck of a lot more about what was going on and the personality of these guys.

Stuff leaked out about Kyrie that made it very clear what he was all about. I've just not seen the same with this group. So, I'm going to keep hoping and looking for signs that Collin, Darius, KPJ, etc, can expand their games until they're no longer wearing wine & gold.


The two biggest obstacles to getting fair value in a trade for Love is his current contract and Sexton's selfish play. One of those things also happens to be Love's primary motivations for seeking a trade. Who gave that contract to Love? Who allowed the situation to unravel to this point?

If player development is the number one goal, Love shouldn't have gotten the extension, at least not if *player development* meant allowing young ball handlers to do whatever they wanted for this long. For that matter, why did we hire Beilein if we were going to default to running offenses that relied primarily on one guy monopolizing the high PNR or ISO sets. From a big picture view, I'm left to conclude one of two things happened, we have a F.O. that couldn't foresee the incongruity with the plan, or they allowed a young player to hijack the plan. Neither of those explanations should be acceptable. The latter explanation would be really egregious given the fact that we already went through this with Kyrie and Dion in the last rebuild.

if we end up trading Love at the deadline for expiring contracts due to these circumstances, that's an organizational failure. We'll have essentially traded both Love and Kyrie for Sexton. Those are the types of outcomes that can determine whether your rebuild lasts for half a decade or longer. I don't buy that Sexton's development would've been so impaired by a move to the bench, if just for long enough to avoid this outcome, that it wasn't worth the trade off. If anything, it would've sent a message that a young team needed to hear sooner rather than later.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#43 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:20 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
To the extent he's doing anything, he's doing the bare minimum and only after 90% of the fan base is screaming to move him to a sixth man role on social media. Watch the fourth quarter of the Denver game again, particularly the exchanges between Love and Sexton when Love is getting a mismatch on the block after Denver switches.

I remain deeply skeptical that this is a matter of Sexton failing to see the open guy or not understanding what the correct basketball play is. In that Pistons loss when Love scored 30 and barely touched the ball in the 4th quarter, Sexton dismissed it as having to move on to the second option (meaning him) because the Pistons were keying on Love.

The issue isn't how much patience we as the fans have, it's how patience the organization has and whether they've already erred.
Even if the Cavs manage to find an acceptable trade for Love before the deadline, and I'm skeptical at this point, then what's the plan going forward with Sexton? It better not be surround him with inferior players and then hope against hope that he plays team ball on a truly bad team.

Teams send lottery picks to the G League now. They bring lottery picks off the bench all the time. Unearned starters minutes on a rebuilding team is one thing, but when bad habits aren't changing in a guy's second year, to the detriment of the other starters, it should be an easy call.


Altman's job is to put together the best possible team. If he thinks he can do that by trading ANYONE he should pull the trigger. So, he needs to determine the relative value of what we have .vs. what we can get in trade. Hence his "patience" might be measured in days or decades. Not much we can do about that.

Some fan patience, otoh, makes the message boards a more pleasant place.

We don't have to like Altman's choices, we can point out when player's are struggling, and we can even harbor fears they won't improve significantly; but presumably we all want these guys to learn, grow, and help our team win a lot of games. It's not a lot of fun to sour things about these players to the point we hope they fail so they prove we're right.

So, while I've said over and over that player development is job #1 for this team, I recognize that I'm not working with these guys, I'm not familiar with their plan for them or their goals. I don't know where they've met expectations or where they've been stubborn or perhaps even downright beligerent. I've suggested myself maybe the Cavs are using too many carrots and not enough sticks, but I'm not going to pretend I'm right unless I knew a heck of a lot more about what was going on and the personality of these guys.

Stuff leaked out about Kyrie that made it very clear what he was all about. I've just not seen the same with this group. So, I'm going to keep hoping and looking for signs that Collin, Darius, KPJ, etc, can expand their games until they're no longer wearing wine & gold.


The two biggest obstacles to getting fair value in a trade for Love is his current contract and Sexton's selfish play. One of those things also happens to be Love's primary motivations for seeking a trade. Who gave that contract to Love? Who allowed the situation to unravel to this point?

If player development is the number one goal, Love shouldn't have gotten the extension, at least not if *player development* meant allowing young ball handlers to do whatever they wanted for this long. For that matter, why did we hire Beilein if we were going to default to running offenses that relied primarily on one guy monopolizing the high PNR. From a big picture view, I'm left to conclude one of two things happened, we have a F.O. that couldn't foresee the incongruity with the plan, or they allowed a young player to hijack the plan. Neither of those explanations should be acceptable.

if we end up trading Love at the deadline for expiring contracts due to these circumstances, that's an organizational failure. We'll have essentially traded both Love and Kyrie for Sexton. Those are the types of outcomes that can determine whether your rebuild lasts for half a decade or longer. I don't buy that Sexton's development would've been so impaired by a move to the bench, if just for long enough to avoid this outcome, that it wasn't worth the trade off. If anything, it would've sent a message that a young team needed to hear sooner rather than later.


That's an odd way to look at it, if you accept that Kevin Love was a negative asset the day we signed him.

The team has to be all in on player development, and any vet who can't get on board with that will need to be shipped out so we can focus on what's important.

Which isn't to say everyone has to slap on their W&G colored glasses, it's more about intent. If Kevin's acting out to force a trade that's one thing ... if he's acting out because he's sick of the same mistakes being made and wants to see improvement - that's something else.

If Kevin and other players just hate playing with Collin, well, guess what? We are going to keep on starting him, and our focus won't necessarily be on trading Kevin, but rather Collin. Or who knows ... maybe both?

Personally, I'm not rushing to judgement. We could come out better for it depending who we get back and how they fit - but their strengths & weaknesses are well known around the league.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#44 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:02 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Altman's job is to put together the best possible team. If he thinks he can do that by trading ANYONE he should pull the trigger. So, he needs to determine the relative value of what we have .vs. what we can get in trade. Hence his "patience" might be measured in days or decades. Not much we can do about that.

Some fan patience, otoh, makes the message boards a more pleasant place.

We don't have to like Altman's choices, we can point out when player's are struggling, and we can even harbor fears they won't improve significantly; but presumably we all want these guys to learn, grow, and help our team win a lot of games. It's not a lot of fun to sour things about these players to the point we hope they fail so they prove we're right.

So, while I've said over and over that player development is job #1 for this team, I recognize that I'm not working with these guys, I'm not familiar with their plan for them or their goals. I don't know where they've met expectations or where they've been stubborn or perhaps even downright beligerent. I've suggested myself maybe the Cavs are using too many carrots and not enough sticks, but I'm not going to pretend I'm right unless I knew a heck of a lot more about what was going on and the personality of these guys.

Stuff leaked out about Kyrie that made it very clear what he was all about. I've just not seen the same with this group. So, I'm going to keep hoping and looking for signs that Collin, Darius, KPJ, etc, can expand their games until they're no longer wearing wine & gold.


The two biggest obstacles to getting fair value in a trade for Love is his current contract and Sexton's selfish play. One of those things also happens to be Love's primary motivations for seeking a trade. Who gave that contract to Love? Who allowed the situation to unravel to this point?

If player development is the number one goal, Love shouldn't have gotten the extension, at least not if *player development* meant allowing young ball handlers to do whatever they wanted for this long. For that matter, why did we hire Beilein if we were going to default to running offenses that relied primarily on one guy monopolizing the high PNR. From a big picture view, I'm left to conclude one of two things happened, we have a F.O. that couldn't foresee the incongruity with the plan, or they allowed a young player to hijack the plan. Neither of those explanations should be acceptable.

if we end up trading Love at the deadline for expiring contracts due to these circumstances, that's an organizational failure. We'll have essentially traded both Love and Kyrie for Sexton. Those are the types of outcomes that can determine whether your rebuild lasts for half a decade or longer. I don't buy that Sexton's development would've been so impaired by a move to the bench, if just for long enough to avoid this outcome, that it wasn't worth the trade off. If anything, it would've sent a message that a young team needed to hear sooner rather than later.


That's an odd way to look at it, if you accept that Kevin Love was a negative asset the day we signed him.

The team has to be all in on player development, and any vet who can't get on board with that will need to be shipped out so we can focus on what's important.

Which isn't to say everyone has to slap on their W&G colored glasses, it's more about intent. If Kevin's acting out to force a trade that's one thing ... if he's acting out because he's sick of the same mistakes being made and wants to see improvement - that's something else.

If Kevin and other players just hate playing with Collin, well, guess what? We are going to keep on starting him, and our focus won't necessarily be on trading Kevin, but rather Collin. Or who knows ... maybe both?

Personally, I'm not rushing to judgement. We could come out better for it depending who we get back and how they fit - but their strengths & weaknesses are well known around the league.


I think it comes down to how much of this was as foreseeable as the sun coming up. Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract with the hope of him becoming a really good trade asset? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and it was a priority? Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract to help with player development and not be awful? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and what their roles would be?

Whatever the plan was, it was not at all difficult to see that you were signing Love to a number that, given his age and injury history, was at the high end of his value in terms of being a trade asset. From the moment he signed that contract, that was an investment that needed its value to be managed. That doesn't mean you necessarily proceed as though you're stuck on a path for four years, but it does mean that the organization doesn't do anything that, via direct action or neglect, would devalue that investment.

Are there vets as good as Kevin who would stand still for Sexton going YOLO for this long? The answer to that question is a big fat no IMO. Sexton is lucky Love isn't one of the half dozen big men with anger management issues in the NBA. Just based on body language alone, it was clear early on this season that Sexton's play was wearing on Love. Sitting back and letting the gears grind until the engine stops is a failure. Is it fatal? Who knows. But it was avoidable. The F.O. was not proactive here.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#45 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:48 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
The two biggest obstacles to getting fair value in a trade for Love is his current contract and Sexton's selfish play. One of those things also happens to be Love's primary motivations for seeking a trade. Who gave that contract to Love? Who allowed the situation to unravel to this point?

If player development is the number one goal, Love shouldn't have gotten the extension, at least not if *player development* meant allowing young ball handlers to do whatever they wanted for this long. For that matter, why did we hire Beilein if we were going to default to running offenses that relied primarily on one guy monopolizing the high PNR. From a big picture view, I'm left to conclude one of two things happened, we have a F.O. that couldn't foresee the incongruity with the plan, or they allowed a young player to hijack the plan. Neither of those explanations should be acceptable.

if we end up trading Love at the deadline for expiring contracts due to these circumstances, that's an organizational failure. We'll have essentially traded both Love and Kyrie for Sexton. Those are the types of outcomes that can determine whether your rebuild lasts for half a decade or longer. I don't buy that Sexton's development would've been so impaired by a move to the bench, if just for long enough to avoid this outcome, that it wasn't worth the trade off. If anything, it would've sent a message that a young team needed to hear sooner rather than later.


That's an odd way to look at it, if you accept that Kevin Love was a negative asset the day we signed him.

The team has to be all in on player development, and any vet who can't get on board with that will need to be shipped out so we can focus on what's important.

Which isn't to say everyone has to slap on their W&G colored glasses, it's more about intent. If Kevin's acting out to force a trade that's one thing ... if he's acting out because he's sick of the same mistakes being made and wants to see improvement - that's something else.

If Kevin and other players just hate playing with Collin, well, guess what? We are going to keep on starting him, and our focus won't necessarily be on trading Kevin, but rather Collin. Or who knows ... maybe both?

Personally, I'm not rushing to judgement. We could come out better for it depending who we get back and how they fit - but their strengths & weaknesses are well known around the league.


I think it comes down to how much of this was as foreseeable as the sun coming up. Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract with the hope of him becoming a really good trade asset? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and it was a priority? Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract to help with player development and not be awful? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and what their roles would be?

Whatever the plan was, it was not at all difficult to see that you were signing Love to a number that, given his age and injury history, was at the high end of his value in terms of being a trade asset. From the moment he signed that contract, that was an investment that needed its value to be managed. That doesn't mean you necessarily proceed as though you're stuck on a path for four years, but it does mean that the organization doesn't do anything that, via direct action or neglect, would devalue that investment.

Are there vets as good as Kevin who would stand still for Sexton going YOLO for this long? The answer to that question is a big fat no IMO. Sexton is lucky Love isn't one of the half dozen big men with anger management issues in the NBA. Just based on body language alone, it was clear early on this season that Sexton's play was wearing on Love. Sitting back and letting the gears grind until the engine stops is a failure. Is it fatal? Who knows. But it was avoidable. The F.O. was not proactive here.


If you believe Kevin, he loves his teammates. If he hated Sexton, then why didn't he force a trade this Summer?

I mean, his actual blow ups were reportedly directed at Beilein and Altman.

Seems to me he bought in to what Beilein was selling, then got frustrated with the process and acted immaturely OR he's getting frustrated because the Cavs refused to accept a **** offer for him - so he's trying to force a trade.

If Altman settled things down by agreeing to take the best offer for Kevin before the deadline and that's why he's 180'd his attitude ... well, we'll see soon enough. The TT situation will be harder to read because even if he doesn't want to be traded, he does what to earn a big deal next Summer from someone.

As long as we don't have to give up an asset to trade Kevin, I really don't get why you'd see this as a failure. He wasn't in the way of any of our young players, he gave them someone to learn to play off of, he helped save some face for the franchise, and probably sold some tickets.

Jason Lloyd reported this on August 12th, well before Kevin created any drama:

"Sources add that the Cavs will have difficulty trading Love to the his 4-year, $120 million contract. Teams are asking for a first-round pick from the Cavs to absorb the rest of Love's deal.

The Cavs are also open to trading everyone on their roster outside of Darius Garland in exchange for first-round picks. "

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256461/Cavs-Looking-For-First-Round-Pick-In-Exchange-For-Kevin-Love

Those first rounders haven't exactly been pouring in since then ...
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#46 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:28 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's an odd way to look at it, if you accept that Kevin Love was a negative asset the day we signed him.

The team has to be all in on player development, and any vet who can't get on board with that will need to be shipped out so we can focus on what's important.

Which isn't to say everyone has to slap on their W&G colored glasses, it's more about intent. If Kevin's acting out to force a trade that's one thing ... if he's acting out because he's sick of the same mistakes being made and wants to see improvement - that's something else.

If Kevin and other players just hate playing with Collin, well, guess what? We are going to keep on starting him, and our focus won't necessarily be on trading Kevin, but rather Collin. Or who knows ... maybe both?

Personally, I'm not rushing to judgement. We could come out better for it depending who we get back and how they fit - but their strengths & weaknesses are well known around the league.


I think it comes down to how much of this was as foreseeable as the sun coming up. Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract with the hope of him becoming a really good trade asset? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and it was a priority? Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract to help with player development and not be awful? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and what their roles would be?

Whatever the plan was, it was not at all difficult to see that you were signing Love to a number that, given his age and injury history, was at the high end of his value in terms of being a trade asset. From the moment he signed that contract, that was an investment that needed its value to be managed. That doesn't mean you necessarily proceed as though you're stuck on a path for four years, but it does mean that the organization doesn't do anything that, via direct action or neglect, would devalue that investment.

Are there vets as good as Kevin who would stand still for Sexton going YOLO for this long? The answer to that question is a big fat no IMO. Sexton is lucky Love isn't one of the half dozen big men with anger management issues in the NBA. Just based on body language alone, it was clear early on this season that Sexton's play was wearing on Love. Sitting back and letting the gears grind until the engine stops is a failure. Is it fatal? Who knows. But it was avoidable. The F.O. was not proactive here.


If you believe Kevin, he loves his teammates. If he hated Sexton, then why didn't he force a trade this Summer?

I mean, his actual blow ups were reportedly directed at Beilein and Altman.

Seems to me he bought in to what Beilein was selling, then got frustrated with the process and acted immaturely OR he's getting frustrated because the Cavs refused to accept a **** offer for him - so he's trying to force a trade.

If Altman settled things down by agreeing to take the best offer for Kevin before the deadline and that's why he's 180'd his attitude ... well, we'll see soon enough. The TT situation will be harder to read because even if he doesn't want to be traded, he does what to earn a big deal next Summer from someone.

As long as we don't have to give up an asset to trade Kevin, I really don't get why you'd see this as a failure. He wasn't in the way of any of our young players, he gave them someone to learn to play off of, he helped save some face for the franchise, and probably sold some tickets.

Jason Lloyd reported this on August 12th, well before Kevin created any drama:

"Sources add that the Cavs will have difficulty trading Love to the his 4-year, $120 million contract. Teams are asking for a first-round pick from the Cavs to absorb the rest of Love's deal.

The Cavs are also open to trading everyone on their roster outside of Darius Garland in exchange for first-round picks. "

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256461/Cavs-Looking-For-First-Round-Pick-In-Exchange-For-Kevin-Love

Those first rounders haven't exactly been pouring in since then ...
I could respond to this point by point, but I'll just ask you this: If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we bother extending Love at all? If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we hire Beilein?

I feel like the Cavs had a plan and abandoned it, and I feel like they abandoned it for the wrong reasons.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#47 » by Stillwater » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:44 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I think it comes down to how much of this was as foreseeable as the sun coming up. Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract with the hope of him becoming a really good trade asset? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and it was a priority? Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract to help with player development and not be awful? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and what their roles would be?

Whatever the plan was, it was not at all difficult to see that you were signing Love to a number that, given his age and injury history, was at the high end of his value in terms of being a trade asset. From the moment he signed that contract, that was an investment that needed its value to be managed. That doesn't mean you necessarily proceed as though you're stuck on a path for four years, but it does mean that the organization doesn't do anything that, via direct action or neglect, would devalue that investment.

Are there vets as good as Kevin who would stand still for Sexton going YOLO for this long? The answer to that question is a big fat no IMO. Sexton is lucky Love isn't one of the half dozen big men with anger management issues in the NBA. Just based on body language alone, it was clear early on this season that Sexton's play was wearing on Love. Sitting back and letting the gears grind until the engine stops is a failure. Is it fatal? Who knows. But it was avoidable. The F.O. was not proactive here.


If you believe Kevin, he loves his teammates. If he hated Sexton, then why didn't he force a trade this Summer?

I mean, his actual blow ups were reportedly directed at Beilein and Altman.

Seems to me he bought in to what Beilein was selling, then got frustrated with the process and acted immaturely OR he's getting frustrated because the Cavs refused to accept a **** offer for him - so he's trying to force a trade.

If Altman settled things down by agreeing to take the best offer for Kevin before the deadline and that's why he's 180'd his attitude ... well, we'll see soon enough. The TT situation will be harder to read because even if he doesn't want to be traded, he does what to earn a big deal next Summer from someone.

As long as we don't have to give up an asset to trade Kevin, I really don't get why you'd see this as a failure. He wasn't in the way of any of our young players, he gave them someone to learn to play off of, he helped save some face for the franchise, and probably sold some tickets.

Jason Lloyd reported this on August 12th, well before Kevin created any drama:

"Sources add that the Cavs will have difficulty trading Love to the his 4-year, $120 million contract. Teams are asking for a first-round pick from the Cavs to absorb the rest of Love's deal.

The Cavs are also open to trading everyone on their roster outside of Darius Garland in exchange for first-round picks. "

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256461/Cavs-Looking-For-First-Round-Pick-In-Exchange-For-Kevin-Love

Those first rounders haven't exactly been pouring in since then ...
I could respond to this point by point, but I'll just ask you this: If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we bother extending Love at all? If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we hire Beilein?

I feel like the Cavs had a plan and abandoned it, and I feel like they abandoned it for the wrong reasons.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

My answer is they paid KLove before they switched to full rebuild and hired a college coach to work with 2 ball dominant guards like he has utilized in his system in college to some success.
The reasons for switching to full rebuild was because KLove was hurt last season...
The only point in retooling was if they could have added a vet via trade to join KLove and others that were still in place this time last season.
They changed to plan as happens all the time in this business.
I don't consider anyone safe from being traded if someone offers a really good vet for one of our young players and this org is teetering on changing again back to trying to win with KLove but that seems far less likely than keeping him and moving him this summer. I do not think they will force a trade if they had to give up assets and I think KLove has been more frustrated with the coach not using him like the allstar he was in favor of 2 young guards developing, but given the recent media attn has been forced by the org to play some vets more in his rotation and use sets getting Love looks like he wants.
If you don't like Sextons usage and how it hurts Love and his trade value did you ever think maybe Altman was ok with it because he never was going to trade him at all?
Love took the $ and if he continues to act like a b he tanks his own value and that is also why he has sounded a lot more reasonable of late
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#48 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:29 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
If you believe Kevin, he loves his teammates. If he hated Sexton, then why didn't he force a trade this Summer?

I mean, his actual blow ups were reportedly directed at Beilein and Altman.

Seems to me he bought in to what Beilein was selling, then got frustrated with the process and acted immaturely OR he's getting frustrated because the Cavs refused to accept a **** offer for him - so he's trying to force a trade.

If Altman settled things down by agreeing to take the best offer for Kevin before the deadline and that's why he's 180'd his attitude ... well, we'll see soon enough. The TT situation will be harder to read because even if he doesn't want to be traded, he does what to earn a big deal next Summer from someone.

As long as we don't have to give up an asset to trade Kevin, I really don't get why you'd see this as a failure. He wasn't in the way of any of our young players, he gave them someone to learn to play off of, he helped save some face for the franchise, and probably sold some tickets.

Jason Lloyd reported this on August 12th, well before Kevin created any drama:

"Sources add that the Cavs will have difficulty trading Love to the his 4-year, $120 million contract. Teams are asking for a first-round pick from the Cavs to absorb the rest of Love's deal.

The Cavs are also open to trading everyone on their roster outside of Darius Garland in exchange for first-round picks. "

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256461/Cavs-Looking-For-First-Round-Pick-In-Exchange-For-Kevin-Love

Those first rounders haven't exactly been pouring in since then ...
I could respond to this point by point, but I'll just ask you this: If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we bother extending Love at all? If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we hire Beilein?

I feel like the Cavs had a plan and abandoned it, and I feel like they abandoned it for the wrong reasons.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

My answer is they paid KLove before they switched to full rebuild and hired a college coach to work with 2 ball dominant guards like he has utilized in his system in college to some success.
The reasons for switching to full rebuild was because KLove was hurt last season...
The only point in retooling was if they could have added a vet via trade to join KLove and others that were still in place this time last season.
They changed to plan as happens all the time in this business.
I don't consider anyone safe from being traded if someone offers a really good vet for one of our young players and this org is teetering on changing again back to trying to win with KLove but that seems far less likely than keeping him and moving him this summer. I do not think they will force a trade if they had to give up assets and I think KLove has been more frustrated with the coach not using him like the allstar he was in favor of 2 young guards developing, but given the recent media attn has been forced by the org to play some vets more in his rotation and use sets getting Love looks like he wants.
If you don't like Sextons usage and how it hurts Love and his trade value did you ever think maybe Altman was ok with it because he never was going to trade him at all?
Love took the $ and if he continues to act like a b he tanks his own value and that is also why he has sounded a lot more reasonable of late


After the Cavs started off 0-6, Ty Lue got fired. That was two days before Love got injured and good week or so before they announced he was having elective surgery. I refuse to believe that our F.O. was so dumb as to believe that a team that looked and played really old the previous year was going to the playoffs without LBJ.

Your point about Beilein is evasive. *To work with* could mean anything but we know what his offense looks like because he's been running it for decades and has tried to install here.

Look, the truth, as we saw last night in the Lakers game, is that reality will be the instructor for Sexton if the Cavs refuse to be. This is a professional league with seven foot players some of whom are pretty athletic. If no one believes a smaller guard is a threat to pass on his drives, and all he wants to do is drive, that guy gets easy to defend in a hurry. Other teams have scouted him. He's in for more rough nights against good, or even decent defensive teams, if he doesn't change it up.

If you like Sexton, if you want him to succeed, then you should want the organization to at least try to start breaking his bad habits at this point. Bad habits are like cement with young guys and they harden fast.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#49 » by Stillwater » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:31 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I could respond to this point by point, but I'll just ask you this: If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we bother extending Love at all? If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we hire Beilein?

I feel like the Cavs had a plan and abandoned it, and I feel like they abandoned it for the wrong reasons.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

My answer is they paid KLove before they switched to full rebuild and hired a college coach to work with 2 ball dominant guards like he has utilized in his system in college to some success.
The reasons for switching to full rebuild was because KLove was hurt last season...
The only point in retooling was if they could have added a vet via trade to join KLove and others that were still in place this time last season.
They changed to plan as happens all the time in this business.
I don't consider anyone safe from being traded if someone offers a really good vet for one of our young players and this org is teetering on changing again back to trying to win with KLove but that seems far less likely than keeping him and moving him this summer. I do not think they will force a trade if they had to give up assets and I think KLove has been more frustrated with the coach not using him like the allstar he was in favor of 2 young guards developing, but given the recent media attn has been forced by the org to play some vets more in his rotation and use sets getting Love looks like he wants.
If you don't like Sextons usage and how it hurts Love and his trade value did you ever think maybe Altman was ok with it because he never was going to trade him at all?
Love took the $ and if he continues to act like a b he tanks his own value and that is also why he has sounded a lot more reasonable of late


After the Cavs started off 0-6, Ty Lue got fired. That was two days before Love got injured and good week or so before they announced he was having elective surgery. I refuse to believe that our F.O. was so dumb as to believe that a team that looked and played really old the previous year was going to the playoffs without LBJ.

Your point about Beilein is evasive. *To work with* could mean anything but we know what his offense looks like because he's been running it for decades and has tried to install here.

Look, the truth, as we saw last night in the Lakers game, is that reality will be the instructor for Sexton if the Cavs refuse to be. This is a professional league with seven foot players some of whom are pretty athletic. If no one believes a smaller guard is a threat to pass on his drives, and all he wants to do is drive, that guy gets easy to defend in a hurry. Other teams have scouted him. He's in for more rough nights against good, or even decent defensive teams, if he doesn't change it up.

If you like Sexton, if you want him to succeed, then you should want the organization to at least try to start breaking his bad habits at this point. Bad habits are like cement with young guys and they harden fast.

there it is... I think they were interested in retooling with intentions to make dl trades to do just that to at least be somewhat competitive not interested in a full rebuilding process with Lue at that time , however it did not take long for them to shift gears on it when they realized the players and coaching staff were checking out...
they could have played the vets a lot more than they did and let Sexton develop very slowly prolonging the inevitable but they had the awareness to at that point go full throttle tank mode.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#50 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:47 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:My answer is they paid KLove before they switched to full rebuild and hired a college coach to work with 2 ball dominant guards like he has utilized in his system in college to some success.
The reasons for switching to full rebuild was because KLove was hurt last season...
The only point in retooling was if they could have added a vet via trade to join KLove and others that were still in place this time last season.
They changed to plan as happens all the time in this business.
I don't consider anyone safe from being traded if someone offers a really good vet for one of our young players and this org is teetering on changing again back to trying to win with KLove but that seems far less likely than keeping him and moving him this summer. I do not think they will force a trade if they had to give up assets and I think KLove has been more frustrated with the coach not using him like the allstar he was in favor of 2 young guards developing, but given the recent media attn has been forced by the org to play some vets more in his rotation and use sets getting Love looks like he wants.
If you don't like Sextons usage and how it hurts Love and his trade value did you ever think maybe Altman was ok with it because he never was going to trade him at all?
Love took the $ and if he continues to act like a b he tanks his own value and that is also why he has sounded a lot more reasonable of late


After the Cavs started off 0-6, Ty Lue got fired. That was two days before Love got injured and good week or so before they announced he was having elective surgery. I refuse to believe that our F.O. was so dumb as to believe that a team that looked and played really old the previous year was going to the playoffs without LBJ.

Your point about Beilein is evasive. *To work with* could mean anything but we know what his offense looks like because he's been running it for decades and has tried to install here.

Look, the truth, as we saw last night in the Lakers game, is that reality will be the instructor for Sexton if the Cavs refuse to be. This is a professional league with seven foot players some of whom are pretty athletic. If no one believes a smaller guard is a threat to pass on his drives, and all he wants to do is drive, that guy gets easy to defend in a hurry. Other teams have scouted him. He's in for more rough nights against good, or even decent defensive teams, if he doesn't change it up.

If you like Sexton, if you want him to succeed, then you should want the organization to at least try to start breaking his bad habits at this point. Bad habits are like cement with young guys and they harden fast.

there it is... I think they were interested in retooling with intentions to make dl trades to do just that to at least be somewhat competitive not interested in a full rebuilding process with Lue at that time , however it did not take long for them to shift gears on it when they realized the players and coaching staff were checking out...
they could have played the vets a lot more than they did and let Sexton develop very slowly prolonging the inevitable but they had the awareness to at that point go full throttle tank mode.


If they found themselves having to reverse course after six games, and the plan was to develop Sexton slowly, then they should've gone into this season doing everything humanly possible to boost Love's trade value and that includes talking to and/or benching a young player who was impairing it with his style of play.

What they did makes zero sense however you look at it. Even if they had to change their plan only six games into last season, and I'm very skeptical they extended Love because they truly believed they were in a position to win now, then the number one goal for this season should have been trading Love early after he showed he was still capable of playing well and staying healthy. After Love was gone, the team could fully commit to Sexton if that's what they wanted.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#51 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:00 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I think it comes down to how much of this was as foreseeable as the sun coming up. Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract with the hope of him becoming a really good trade asset? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and it was a priority? Was the plan to sign K. Love to that contract to help with player development and not be awful? If so, what steps did the organization undertake to establish that everyone understood that was the goal and what their roles would be?

Whatever the plan was, it was not at all difficult to see that you were signing Love to a number that, given his age and injury history, was at the high end of his value in terms of being a trade asset. From the moment he signed that contract, that was an investment that needed its value to be managed. That doesn't mean you necessarily proceed as though you're stuck on a path for four years, but it does mean that the organization doesn't do anything that, via direct action or neglect, would devalue that investment.

Are there vets as good as Kevin who would stand still for Sexton going YOLO for this long? The answer to that question is a big fat no IMO. Sexton is lucky Love isn't one of the half dozen big men with anger management issues in the NBA. Just based on body language alone, it was clear early on this season that Sexton's play was wearing on Love. Sitting back and letting the gears grind until the engine stops is a failure. Is it fatal? Who knows. But it was avoidable. The F.O. was not proactive here.


If you believe Kevin, he loves his teammates. If he hated Sexton, then why didn't he force a trade this Summer?

I mean, his actual blow ups were reportedly directed at Beilein and Altman.

Seems to me he bought in to what Beilein was selling, then got frustrated with the process and acted immaturely OR he's getting frustrated because the Cavs refused to accept a **** offer for him - so he's trying to force a trade.

If Altman settled things down by agreeing to take the best offer for Kevin before the deadline and that's why he's 180'd his attitude ... well, we'll see soon enough. The TT situation will be harder to read because even if he doesn't want to be traded, he does what to earn a big deal next Summer from someone.

As long as we don't have to give up an asset to trade Kevin, I really don't get why you'd see this as a failure. He wasn't in the way of any of our young players, he gave them someone to learn to play off of, he helped save some face for the franchise, and probably sold some tickets.

Jason Lloyd reported this on August 12th, well before Kevin created any drama:

"Sources add that the Cavs will have difficulty trading Love to the his 4-year, $120 million contract. Teams are asking for a first-round pick from the Cavs to absorb the rest of Love's deal.

The Cavs are also open to trading everyone on their roster outside of Darius Garland in exchange for first-round picks. "

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256461/Cavs-Looking-For-First-Round-Pick-In-Exchange-For-Kevin-Love

Those first rounders haven't exactly been pouring in since then ...
I could respond to this point by point, but I'll just ask you this: If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we bother extending Love at all? If the plan was to allow young players to do what they want, why did we hire Beilein?

I feel like the Cavs had a plan and abandoned it, and I feel like they abandoned it for the wrong reasons.


There's a lot of possible reasons for why we wanted to sign Kevin including

- got to spend our cap space on something
- selling tickets
- being somewhat competitive to make it easier to teach
- rewarding him for the championship
- helps make the franchise look less ****

or

- Dan wanted to

Obviously you're thinking of something not on my list. :)
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#52 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:27 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
After the Cavs started off 0-6, Ty Lue got fired. That was two days before Love got injured and good week or so before they announced he was having elective surgery. I refuse to believe that our F.O. was so dumb as to believe that a team that looked and played really old the previous year was going to the playoffs without LBJ.

Your point about Beilein is evasive. *To work with* could mean anything but we know what his offense looks like because he's been running it for decades and has tried to install here.

Look, the truth, as we saw last night in the Lakers game, is that reality will be the instructor for Sexton if the Cavs refuse to be. This is a professional league with seven foot players some of whom are pretty athletic. If no one believes a smaller guard is a threat to pass on his drives, and all he wants to do is drive, that guy gets easy to defend in a hurry. Other teams have scouted him. He's in for more rough nights against good, or even decent defensive teams, if he doesn't change it up.

If you like Sexton, if you want him to succeed, then you should want the organization to at least try to start breaking his bad habits at this point. Bad habits are like cement with young guys and they harden fast.

there it is... I think they were interested in retooling with intentions to make dl trades to do just that to at least be somewhat competitive not interested in a full rebuilding process with Lue at that time , however it did not take long for them to shift gears on it when they realized the players and coaching staff were checking out...
they could have played the vets a lot more than they did and let Sexton develop very slowly prolonging the inevitable but they had the awareness to at that point go full throttle tank mode.


If they found themselves having to reverse course after six games, and the plan was to develop Sexton slowly, then they should've gone into this season doing everything humanly possible to boost Love's trade value and that includes talking to and/or benching a young player who was impairing it with his style of play.

What they did makes zero sense however you look at it. Even if they had to change their plan only six games into last season, and I'm very skeptical they extended Love because they truly believed they were in a position to win now, then the number one goal for this season should have been trading Love early after he showed he was still capable of playing well and staying healthy. After Love was gone, the team could fully commit to Sexton if that's what they wanted.

I think it was pretty obvious they were not going into this season with intentions to boost Love's value starting a rookie out of shape Garland regardless of what you think about Sexton he showed up to camp stronger hungry as F and in a lot better shape than most of the roster. They were not going to bench him for say Delly or Knight just to boost Love's value not with Garland needing to get game reps and get in shape etc.
maybe they should have done something different, but all of this retrospect reflecting is nauseating. All that matters is what they do now. I do not think Love was nearly as disgruntled as it appeared or was reported to the point of forcing a trade otherwise he would be away from the team right now.
They are still under no pressure to move his contract as much as they are to try to boost values of some of their expriing's they dont plan to bring back.
Give Love a fu...kn under the table bonus for riding out the season and being the good soldier and trade him on draft night.
everyone knows we are using young guards that dont pass much so it's not like other GM's can suggest Love all of sudden sucks now.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#53 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:16 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:there it is... I think they were interested in retooling with intentions to make dl trades to do just that to at least be somewhat competitive not interested in a full rebuilding process with Lue at that time , however it did not take long for them to shift gears on it when they realized the players and coaching staff were checking out...
they could have played the vets a lot more than they did and let Sexton develop very slowly prolonging the inevitable but they had the awareness to at that point go full throttle tank mode.


If they found themselves having to reverse course after six games, and the plan was to develop Sexton slowly, then they should've gone into this season doing everything humanly possible to boost Love's trade value and that includes talking to and/or benching a young player who was impairing it with his style of play.

What they did makes zero sense however you look at it. Even if they had to change their plan only six games into last season, and I'm very skeptical they extended Love because they truly believed they were in a position to win now, then the number one goal for this season should have been trading Love early after he showed he was still capable of playing well and staying healthy. After Love was gone, the team could fully commit to Sexton if that's what they wanted.

I think it was pretty obvious they were not going into this season with intentions to boost Love's value starting a rookie out of shape Garland regardless of what you think about Sexton he showed up to camp stronger hungry as F and in a lot better shape than most of the roster. They were not going to bench him for say Delly or Knight just to boost Love's value not with Garland needing to get game reps and get in shape etc.
maybe they should have done something different, but all of this retrospect reflecting is nauseating. All that matters is what they do now. I do not think Love was nearly as disgruntled as it appeared or was reported to the point of forcing a trade otherwise he would be away from the team right now.
They are still under no pressure to move his contract as much as they are to try to boost values of some of their expriing's they dont plan to bring back.
Give Love a fu...kn under the table bonus for riding out the season and being the good soldier and trade him on draft night.
everyone knows we are using young guards that dont pass much so it's not like other GM's can suggest Love all of sudden sucks now.


Draft night would be ideal because then we'd know what we were getting for him. Trading for future lottery protected picks is kind of meh in my book. The Irving trade had a ray of hope since that pick wasn't protected (if we had beat the Nyets we might had ended up with Doncic for instance), but we really should have insisted on either Tatum or Brown (assuming we liked them).

Admittedly it was a weird situation and Kyrie was running around sinking his value. Supposedly Phoenix wouldn't even consider giving up their 4th pick (Josh Jackson) for Irving after they'd gotten a look at him. Who knows what they were seeing given Jackson has spent the season so far playing for the Memphis Hustle.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#54 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:34 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
If they found themselves having to reverse course after six games, and the plan was to develop Sexton slowly, then they should've gone into this season doing everything humanly possible to boost Love's trade value and that includes talking to and/or benching a young player who was impairing it with his style of play.

What they did makes zero sense however you look at it. Even if they had to change their plan only six games into last season, and I'm very skeptical they extended Love because they truly believed they were in a position to win now, then the number one goal for this season should have been trading Love early after he showed he was still capable of playing well and staying healthy. After Love was gone, the team could fully commit to Sexton if that's what they wanted.

I think it was pretty obvious they were not going into this season with intentions to boost Love's value starting a rookie out of shape Garland regardless of what you think about Sexton he showed up to camp stronger hungry as F and in a lot better shape than most of the roster. They were not going to bench him for say Delly or Knight just to boost Love's value not with Garland needing to get game reps and get in shape etc.
maybe they should have done something different, but all of this retrospect reflecting is nauseating. All that matters is what they do now. I do not think Love was nearly as disgruntled as it appeared or was reported to the point of forcing a trade otherwise he would be away from the team right now.
They are still under no pressure to move his contract as much as they are to try to boost values of some of their expriing's they dont plan to bring back.
Give Love a fu...kn under the table bonus for riding out the season and being the good soldier and trade him on draft night.
everyone knows we are using young guards that dont pass much so it's not like other GM's can suggest Love all of sudden sucks now.


Draft night would be ideal because then we'd know what we were getting for him. Trading for future lottery protected picks is kind of meh in my book. The Irving trade had a ray of hope since that pick wasn't protected (if we had beat the Nyets we might had ended up with Doncic for instance), but we really should have insisted on either Tatum or Brown (assuming we liked them).

Admittedly it was a weird situation and Kyrie was running around sinking his value. Supposedly Phoenix wouldn't even consider giving up their 4th pick (Josh Jackson) for Irving after they'd gotten a look at him. Who knows what they were seeing given Jackson has spent the season so far playing for the Memphis Hustle.

What often goes unnoticed by fans is how much agent interference plays a role in who an org drafts, I mean it was well known SGA agent wanted no part of CLE whereas Sexton was just all work and elated anyone would take a shot at him that early even saying after being drafted " I will have to learn to play the position" that is what I loved about him early on... humble as all hell and a sponge. no prima Irving bs.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#55 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think it was pretty obvious they were not going into this season with intentions to boost Love's value starting a rookie out of shape Garland regardless of what you think about Sexton he showed up to camp stronger hungry as F and in a lot better shape than most of the roster. They were not going to bench him for say Delly or Knight just to boost Love's value not with Garland needing to get game reps and get in shape etc.
maybe they should have done something different, but all of this retrospect reflecting is nauseating. All that matters is what they do now. I do not think Love was nearly as disgruntled as it appeared or was reported to the point of forcing a trade otherwise he would be away from the team right now.
They are still under no pressure to move his contract as much as they are to try to boost values of some of their expriing's they dont plan to bring back.
Give Love a fu...kn under the table bonus for riding out the season and being the good soldier and trade him on draft night.
everyone knows we are using young guards that dont pass much so it's not like other GM's can suggest Love all of sudden sucks now.


Draft night would be ideal because then we'd know what we were getting for him. Trading for future lottery protected picks is kind of meh in my book. The Irving trade had a ray of hope since that pick wasn't protected (if we had beat the Nyets we might had ended up with Doncic for instance), but we really should have insisted on either Tatum or Brown (assuming we liked them).

Admittedly it was a weird situation and Kyrie was running around sinking his value. Supposedly Phoenix wouldn't even consider giving up their 4th pick (Josh Jackson) for Irving after they'd gotten a look at him. Who knows what they were seeing given Jackson has spent the season so far playing for the Memphis Hustle.

What often goes unnoticed by fans is how much agent interference plays a role in who an org drafts, I mean it was well known SGA agent wanted no part of CLE whereas Sexton was just all work and elated anyone would take a shot at him that early even saying after being drafted " I will have to learn to play the position" that is what I loved about him early on... humble as all hell and a sponge. no prima Irving bs.


That's what I thought we were getting, but some guys are just wired different, and there are some hints Collin's "tunnel vision" may not just be affecting his passing. I mean, he's clearly a hard worker ... he took a gazillion 3pt shots to improve that and worked hard on his body over the Summer and even improved his defense somewhat ... but what about his PG play?

I always thought it was pretty weird that he played under Avery Johnson for a year at 'Bama and wasn't taught to run a team. We know Avery loves him, but I'd like slip him some truth serum and hear what he really thought of Collin as a PG prospect rather than as young man or a recruiting tool. Collin's greatest game in his College career came when the rest of his team fouled out and 'Bama had to play 3v5. It's funny how this is starting to make more sense.

It's a little like when we were told that for the first time ever that Coach K had thrown away his offense and just handed the keys to Kyrie. At the time he said it was because Kyrie was so special, but in retrospect I wonder if he just decided there was no way Kyrie would ever accept or run a system?

We learned later that Kyrie played mostly SG in high-school, so, the fact he's always played more like a SG makes a lot of sense; but he's still averaged nearly 6 apg - which is Kobe/MJ level.

Collin hasn't even had a game yet where he's dished out more than 3, and he's had 16 games already with 0. His AST/TO is nearly 1:1 at the moment.

Even if Beilein is encouraging Collin to just go out and score (and Darius to create), this is still a significant red flag because it would seem to indicate a lack of faith from the coach that he can fit the system.

Caris LeVert showed a steady progression in his assists per possession across his 4 years under Beilein, but Collin right now is below where LeVert was even as a freshman.

If we actually have given up on Collin improving his playmaking, I've also got to imagine were shopping him around the league. He clearly has a ton of talent, but at this point in a rebuild, why try to fit a square peg in to a round hole?
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#56 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:48 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Draft night would be ideal because then we'd know what we were getting for him. Trading for future lottery protected picks is kind of meh in my book. The Irving trade had a ray of hope since that pick wasn't protected (if we had beat the Nyets we might had ended up with Doncic for instance), but we really should have insisted on either Tatum or Brown (assuming we liked them).

Admittedly it was a weird situation and Kyrie was running around sinking his value. Supposedly Phoenix wouldn't even consider giving up their 4th pick (Josh Jackson) for Irving after they'd gotten a look at him. Who knows what they were seeing given Jackson has spent the season so far playing for the Memphis Hustle.

What often goes unnoticed by fans is how much agent interference plays a role in who an org drafts, I mean it was well known SGA agent wanted no part of CLE whereas Sexton was just all work and elated anyone would take a shot at him that early even saying after being drafted " I will have to learn to play the position" that is what I loved about him early on... humble as all hell and a sponge. no prima Irving bs.


That's what I thought we were getting, but some guys are just wired different, and there are some hints Collin's "tunnel vision" may not just be affecting his passing. I mean, he's clearly a hard worker ... he took a gazillion 3pt shots to improve that and worked hard on his body over the Summer and even improved his defense somewhat ... but what about his PG play?

I always thought it was pretty weird that he played under Avery Johnson for a year at 'Bama and wasn't taught to run a team. We know Avery loves him, but I'd like slip him some truth serum and hear what he really thought of Collin as a PG prospect rather than as young man or a recruiting tool. Collin's greatest game in his College career came when the rest of his team fouled out and 'Bama had to play 3v5. It's funny how this is starting to make more sense.

It's a little like when we were told that for the first time ever that Coach K had thrown away his offense and just handed the keys to Kyrie. At the time he said it was because Kyrie was so special, but in retrospect I wonder if he just decided there was no way Kyrie would ever accept or run a system?

We learned later that Kyrie played mostly SG in high-school, so, the fact he's always played more like a SG makes a lot of sense; but he's still averaged nearly 6 apg - which is Kobe/MJ level.

Collin hasn't even had a game yet where he's dished out more than 3, and he's had 16 games already with 0. His AST/TO is nearly 1:1 at the moment.

Even if Beilein is encouraging Collin to just go out and score (and Darius to create), this is still a significant red flag because it would seem to indicate a lack of faith from the coach that he can fit the system.

Caris LeVert showed a steady progression in his assists per possession across his 4 years under Beilein, but Collin right now is below where LeVert was even as a freshman.

If we actually have given up on Collin improving his playmaking, I've also got to imagine were shopping him around the league. He clearly has a ton of talent, but at this point in a rebuild, why try to fit a square peg in to a round hole?


The concern I have of moving Collin is that it's obvious that at worst he's going to end up being an elite 6th man in the NBA. Improving defense and the ability to just score with unrelenting drive to improve. We aren't going to get nearly what his value will be in even 2 years of improvement, so why make the move now?
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#57 » by Stillwater » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:58 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:What often goes unnoticed by fans is how much agent interference plays a role in who an org drafts, I mean it was well known SGA agent wanted no part of CLE whereas Sexton was just all work and elated anyone would take a shot at him that early even saying after being drafted " I will have to learn to play the position" that is what I loved about him early on... humble as all hell and a sponge. no prima Irving bs.


That's what I thought we were getting, but some guys are just wired different, and there are some hints Collin's "tunnel vision" may not just be affecting his passing. I mean, he's clearly a hard worker ... he took a gazillion 3pt shots to improve that and worked hard on his body over the Summer and even improved his defense somewhat ... but what about his PG play?

I always thought it was pretty weird that he played under Avery Johnson for a year at 'Bama and wasn't taught to run a team. We know Avery loves him, but I'd like slip him some truth serum and hear what he really thought of Collin as a PG prospect rather than as young man or a recruiting tool. Collin's greatest game in his College career came when the rest of his team fouled out and 'Bama had to play 3v5. It's funny how this is starting to make more sense.

It's a little like when we were told that for the first time ever that Coach K had thrown away his offense and just handed the keys to Kyrie. At the time he said it was because Kyrie was so special, but in retrospect I wonder if he just decided there was no way Kyrie would ever accept or run a system?

We learned later that Kyrie played mostly SG in high-school, so, the fact he's always played more like a SG makes a lot of sense; but he's still averaged nearly 6 apg - which is Kobe/MJ level.

Collin hasn't even had a game yet where he's dished out more than 3, and he's had 16 games already with 0. His AST/TO is nearly 1:1 at the moment.

Even if Beilein is encouraging Collin to just go out and score (and Darius to create), this is still a significant red flag because it would seem to indicate a lack of faith from the coach that he can fit the system.

Caris LeVert showed a steady progression in his assists per possession across his 4 years under Beilein, but Collin right now is below where LeVert was even as a freshman.

If we actually have given up on Collin improving his playmaking, I've also got to imagine were shopping him around the league. He clearly has a ton of talent, but at this point in a rebuild, why try to fit a square peg in to a round hole?


The concern I have of moving Collin is that it's obvious that at worst he's going to end up being an elite 6th man in the NBA. Improving defense and the ability to just score with unrelenting drive to improve. We aren't going to get nearly what his value will be in even 2 years of improvement, so why make the move now?

yeah I am not sold that he won't improve enough in the next few months and next summer as "one that is far more aware of his teammates" type combo guard enough to play next to Garland in some match ups since both can create for themselves and score even if only Garland can run the offense like a true pg, Sexton can do it as a score first pass later combo guard. I don't feel like this org is going to take an unusually driven player such as Sexton and trade him because he is unusual. Any player with his level of drive can accomplish far more than the avg. person. I would not be surprised if he is better at dishing it out than he shows either, given the Coach wants him to keep hunting...his words not mine.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#58 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:04 am

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:What often goes unnoticed by fans is how much agent interference plays a role in who an org drafts, I mean it was well known SGA agent wanted no part of CLE whereas Sexton was just all work and elated anyone would take a shot at him that early even saying after being drafted " I will have to learn to play the position" that is what I loved about him early on... humble as all hell and a sponge. no prima Irving bs.


That's what I thought we were getting, but some guys are just wired different, and there are some hints Collin's "tunnel vision" may not just be affecting his passing. I mean, he's clearly a hard worker ... he took a gazillion 3pt shots to improve that and worked hard on his body over the Summer and even improved his defense somewhat ... but what about his PG play?

I always thought it was pretty weird that he played under Avery Johnson for a year at 'Bama and wasn't taught to run a team. We know Avery loves him, but I'd like slip him some truth serum and hear what he really thought of Collin as a PG prospect rather than as young man or a recruiting tool. Collin's greatest game in his College career came when the rest of his team fouled out and 'Bama had to play 3v5. It's funny how this is starting to make more sense.

It's a little like when we were told that for the first time ever that Coach K had thrown away his offense and just handed the keys to Kyrie. At the time he said it was because Kyrie was so special, but in retrospect I wonder if he just decided there was no way Kyrie would ever accept or run a system?

We learned later that Kyrie played mostly SG in high-school, so, the fact he's always played more like a SG makes a lot of sense; but he's still averaged nearly 6 apg - which is Kobe/MJ level.

Collin hasn't even had a game yet where he's dished out more than 3, and he's had 16 games already with 0. His AST/TO is nearly 1:1 at the moment.

Even if Beilein is encouraging Collin to just go out and score (and Darius to create), this is still a significant red flag because it would seem to indicate a lack of faith from the coach that he can fit the system.

Caris LeVert showed a steady progression in his assists per possession across his 4 years under Beilein, but Collin right now is below where LeVert was even as a freshman.

If we actually have given up on Collin improving his playmaking, I've also got to imagine were shopping him around the league. He clearly has a ton of talent, but at this point in a rebuild, why try to fit a square peg in to a round hole?


The concern I have of moving Collin is that it's obvious that at worst he's going to end up being an elite 6th man in the NBA. Improving defense and the ability to just score with unrelenting drive to improve. We aren't going to get nearly what his value will be in even 2 years of improvement, so why make the move now?


Yeah, on the surface we'd likely get hosed on a trade, but if we trade him it's going to be about system & fit, and that can potentially make up for whatever raw numbers we lose in the deal.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#59 » by Revenged25 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:18 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's what I thought we were getting, but some guys are just wired different, and there are some hints Collin's "tunnel vision" may not just be affecting his passing. I mean, he's clearly a hard worker ... he took a gazillion 3pt shots to improve that and worked hard on his body over the Summer and even improved his defense somewhat ... but what about his PG play?

I always thought it was pretty weird that he played under Avery Johnson for a year at 'Bama and wasn't taught to run a team. We know Avery loves him, but I'd like slip him some truth serum and hear what he really thought of Collin as a PG prospect rather than as young man or a recruiting tool. Collin's greatest game in his College career came when the rest of his team fouled out and 'Bama had to play 3v5. It's funny how this is starting to make more sense.

It's a little like when we were told that for the first time ever that Coach K had thrown away his offense and just handed the keys to Kyrie. At the time he said it was because Kyrie was so special, but in retrospect I wonder if he just decided there was no way Kyrie would ever accept or run a system?

We learned later that Kyrie played mostly SG in high-school, so, the fact he's always played more like a SG makes a lot of sense; but he's still averaged nearly 6 apg - which is Kobe/MJ level.

Collin hasn't even had a game yet where he's dished out more than 3, and he's had 16 games already with 0. His AST/TO is nearly 1:1 at the moment.

Even if Beilein is encouraging Collin to just go out and score (and Darius to create), this is still a significant red flag because it would seem to indicate a lack of faith from the coach that he can fit the system.

Caris LeVert showed a steady progression in his assists per possession across his 4 years under Beilein, but Collin right now is below where LeVert was even as a freshman.

If we actually have given up on Collin improving his playmaking, I've also got to imagine were shopping him around the league. He clearly has a ton of talent, but at this point in a rebuild, why try to fit a square peg in to a round hole?


The concern I have of moving Collin is that it's obvious that at worst he's going to end up being an elite 6th man in the NBA. Improving defense and the ability to just score with unrelenting drive to improve. We aren't going to get nearly what his value will be in even 2 years of improvement, so why make the move now?


Yeah, on the surface we'd likely get hosed on a trade, but if we trade him it's going to be about system & fit, and that can potentially make up for whatever raw numbers we lose in the deal.


what system & fit can you find that's less valuable than an eventual elite 6th man would be worth it?
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#60 » by Stillwater » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:25 am

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
The concern I have of moving Collin is that it's obvious that at worst he's going to end up being an elite 6th man in the NBA. Improving defense and the ability to just score with unrelenting drive to improve. We aren't going to get nearly what his value will be in even 2 years of improvement, so why make the move now?


Yeah, on the surface we'd likely get hosed on a trade, but if we trade him it's going to be about system & fit, and that can potentially make up for whatever raw numbers we lose in the deal.


what system & fit can you find that's less valuable than an eventual elite 6th man would be worth it?

right he aint getting much return value until he is in a role like 6th man where he is dominating at which point why move him...
right now he is the best option with injuries even with DG stepping into the role some in last few games he needs to prove he can sustain that as well which is not a given.
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