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Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#121 » by Mind_Odyssey » Sun May 24, 2020 12:58 pm

This franchise is so awful at drafting that I EXPECT us to draft Avdija and he turns into a bust in 2-3 years.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#122 » by youngWizzy » Sun May 24, 2020 9:55 pm

Hey guys, I just added a new feature to my site that let's you compare two prospects side by side here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/compare

Probably one of the cooler tools I've added.

I also added age as a method for comparing players for per40 and advanced stats which a lot of you requested! You can also choose to add manual measurements on the site as well as pick and choose which measurements you would like to compare physical measurements for players. Also similarity scores for comparisons are on the site as well!

If you don't mind checking it out that'd be amazing!!!!

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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#123 » by JonFromVA » Tue May 26, 2020 6:25 pm

a-French-Fan wrote:About Luka, Deni and young players in Euroleague...

Euroleague is really a hard league for young players. LUKA WAS THE EXCEPTION. When I learnt Ayton was 1st and Luka 3rd, I laught. Maybe Ayton will be a superstar, but what Doncic proved before his draft, it was really great. Maybe the best prospect since LeBron. And he was only 3rd pick.
So do not expect an other prospect with Doncic level before some years, even maybe it will never happen. Doncic hadto learn a new culture for his rookie season, and for his second he played already like a MVP.

In most of Euroleague rosters, there is no minutes for young players:
1) competition is really tough for playoffs
2) experience is needed for playoffs
3) low teams are not sure to stay in Euroleague, so even with the worst record you have to struggle for wins, there is no tanking.

Look Bolmaro's situation. He played really few minutes. But who must go to the bench if you want him to play? Adam Hanga (former best euroleague defensive player)? Alex Abrines (really a good players even if he "didnt feel good" with Thunder)? ... Maybe Bolmaro is the Next Ginobili, but Ginobili was 23 when he played Euroleague with Virtus, and had already played to years in Italy before.
Barcelona have to win Euroleague again, they spent a lot last summer, there is no minutes to give to Bolmaro for his development.

Now, have a look on Pokusevski. His team badly started the season, and before Covid Olympiakos was struggling for play-off. So, sure he is a real prospect, but giving him minutes into Euroleague couldn't be the priority.

And finally Deni ... He average 14 minutes a game in Euroleague, in a team that could create a big surprise. Indeed, while Fener, Pana and Olympiakos had not qualified yet, Maccabi was 5th and already qualified. And Dani contributed to this. So appreciate the performance, instead of thinking "poor stats". Every game does account and is here. Think about Ball who went to NBL in a weak team to show his offensive skills, but who would not play a minute in Maccabi with such a defense.Or think about for Killian Hayes, expected as a top 5: he choose a low eurocup team after a bad season in Jeep Elite, but did not try to join a euroleague roster.

SO ... DANI IS NOT LUKA, BUT HE REALLY DID GREAT THINGS THIS YEAR AND DESERVE TO BE DRAFTED HIGH.


Alas, a lack of evidence is not evidence. We do have other ways to look at these prospects though, such as in terms of pure skills, or international competition (U-17, etc). I mean, let's face it. If Deni had a consistent jumper and was reliable from the free-throw line, everyone would be a lot higher on him.

But maybe you can answer my earlier question ... what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi Osman when he was drafted?
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#124 » by a-French-Fan » Tue May 26, 2020 7:00 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
a-French-Fan wrote:About Luka, Deni and young players in Euroleague...

Euroleague is really a hard league for young players. LUKA WAS THE EXCEPTION. When I learnt Ayton was 1st and Luka 3rd, I laught. Maybe Ayton will be a superstar, but what Doncic proved before his draft, it was really great. Maybe the best prospect since LeBron. And he was only 3rd pick.
So do not expect an other prospect with Doncic level before some years, even maybe it will never happen. Doncic hadto learn a new culture for his rookie season, and for his second he played already like a MVP.

In most of Euroleague rosters, there is no minutes for young players:
1) competition is really tough for playoffs
2) experience is needed for playoffs
3) low teams are not sure to stay in Euroleague, so even with the worst record you have to struggle for wins, there is no tanking.

Look Bolmaro's situation. He played really few minutes. But who must go to the bench if you want him to play? Adam Hanga (former best euroleague defensive player)? Alex Abrines (really a good players even if he "didnt feel good" with Thunder)? ... Maybe Bolmaro is the Next Ginobili, but Ginobili was 23 when he played Euroleague with Virtus, and had already played to years in Italy before.
Barcelona have to win Euroleague again, they spent a lot last summer, there is no minutes to give to Bolmaro for his development.

Now, have a look on Pokusevski. His team badly started the season, and before Covid Olympiakos was struggling for play-off. So, sure he is a real prospect, but giving him minutes into Euroleague couldn't be the priority.

And finally Deni ... He average 14 minutes a game in Euroleague, in a team that could create a big surprise. Indeed, while Fener, Pana and Olympiakos had not qualified yet, Maccabi was 5th and already qualified. And Dani contributed to this. So appreciate the performance, instead of thinking "poor stats". Every game does account and is here. Think about Ball who went to NBL in a weak team to show his offensive skills, but who would not play a minute in Maccabi with such a defense.Or think about for Killian Hayes, expected as a top 5: he choose a low eurocup team after a bad season in Jeep Elite, but did not try to join a euroleague roster.

SO ... DANI IS NOT LUKA, BUT HE REALLY DID GREAT THINGS THIS YEAR AND DESERVE TO BE DRAFTED HIGH.


Alas, a lack of evidence is not evidence. We do have other ways to look at these prospects though, such as in terms of pure skills, or international competition (U-17, etc). I mean, let's face it. If Deni had a consistent jumper and was reliable from the free-throw line, everyone would be a lot higher on him.

But maybe you can answer my earlier question ... what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi Osman when he was drafted?


I do not have a good answer. Actually Osman #31 it was really a lack of respect for him, it is like Parker at #29 after leading a pro team at 18 or Doncic only at #3 after dominating Euroleague. Sometimes you can't understand draft choices. So ... maybe there is more consideration for Euroleague now, or even european pro leagues.
I give you an other case: Ntilikina #8 and Malédon expected between #15 and #25. Oh wait there is maybe a part of the answer: Osman was not the best prospect from his team, Saric was (even if draft in 2014). Like Malédon was not leader of junior french national team because Killian Hayes was better. It is like playing with a better prospect would decrease value of a player.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#125 » by Stillwater » Tue May 26, 2020 7:40 pm

The sell for me on Avdija is as a playmaker and versatile role player do to a decent understanding of the game and a level of unselfishness that only disappears when a teammate creates an opportunity for him to score in transition and smile doing it.
He has fun out there and that goes a long ways to reaching potential /loves the game. However he really is not a good offensive player as it pertains to getting his own shot not to mention does not make them well enough to consider it a positive going forward.
imo he could become better than Cedi as a offensive shooter in time, but I dont see the same level of intensity as a defender that Osman brings that has kept him in the league, so unless Deni turns up the intensity and gets a point forward gig early on in his career, he could easily fade away as another highly thought of intl prospect with a lot of need for improvement that never got there. aka Mario Hezonja 2.0
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#126 » by JonFromVA » Tue May 26, 2020 9:29 pm

a-French-Fan wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
a-French-Fan wrote:About Luka, Deni and young players in Euroleague...

Euroleague is really a hard league for young players. LUKA WAS THE EXCEPTION. When I learnt Ayton was 1st and Luka 3rd, I laught. Maybe Ayton will be a superstar, but what Doncic proved before his draft, it was really great. Maybe the best prospect since LeBron. And he was only 3rd pick.
So do not expect an other prospect with Doncic level before some years, even maybe it will never happen. Doncic hadto learn a new culture for his rookie season, and for his second he played already like a MVP.

In most of Euroleague rosters, there is no minutes for young players:
1) competition is really tough for playoffs
2) experience is needed for playoffs
3) low teams are not sure to stay in Euroleague, so even with the worst record you have to struggle for wins, there is no tanking.

Look Bolmaro's situation. He played really few minutes. But who must go to the bench if you want him to play? Adam Hanga (former best euroleague defensive player)? Alex Abrines (really a good players even if he "didnt feel good" with Thunder)? ... Maybe Bolmaro is the Next Ginobili, but Ginobili was 23 when he played Euroleague with Virtus, and had already played to years in Italy before.
Barcelona have to win Euroleague again, they spent a lot last summer, there is no minutes to give to Bolmaro for his development.

Now, have a look on Pokusevski. His team badly started the season, and before Covid Olympiakos was struggling for play-off. So, sure he is a real prospect, but giving him minutes into Euroleague couldn't be the priority.

And finally Deni ... He average 14 minutes a game in Euroleague, in a team that could create a big surprise. Indeed, while Fener, Pana and Olympiakos had not qualified yet, Maccabi was 5th and already qualified. And Dani contributed to this. So appreciate the performance, instead of thinking "poor stats". Every game does account and is here. Think about Ball who went to NBL in a weak team to show his offensive skills, but who would not play a minute in Maccabi with such a defense.Or think about for Killian Hayes, expected as a top 5: he choose a low eurocup team after a bad season in Jeep Elite, but did not try to join a euroleague roster.

SO ... DANI IS NOT LUKA, BUT HE REALLY DID GREAT THINGS THIS YEAR AND DESERVE TO BE DRAFTED HIGH.


Alas, a lack of evidence is not evidence. We do have other ways to look at these prospects though, such as in terms of pure skills, or international competition (U-17, etc). I mean, let's face it. If Deni had a consistent jumper and was reliable from the free-throw line, everyone would be a lot higher on him.

But maybe you can answer my earlier question ... what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi Osman when he was drafted?


I do not have a good answer. Actually Osman #31 it was really a lack of respect for him, it is like Parker at #29 after leading a pro team at 18 or Doncic only at #3 after dominating Euroleague. Sometimes you can't understand draft choices. So ... maybe there is more consideration for Euroleague now, or even european pro leagues.
I give you an other case: Ntilikina #8 and Malédon expected between #15 and #25. Oh wait there is maybe a part of the answer: Osman was not the best prospect from his team, Saric was (even if draft in 2014). Like Malédon was not leader of junior french national team because Killian Hayes was better. It is like playing with a better prospect would decrease value of a player.


I'm not trying to explain why teams do what they do, but rather asking what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi was; or are you arguing that Cedi would deserve to be a top-5 pick in this draft? If so ... that's a whole other problem.

Is it Deni's playmaking ability for his age? Cedi has demonstrated some ability to create and even be a primary scorer in international games, but maybe that wasn't on display when he was 19?
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#127 » by a-French-Fan » Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 am

JonFromVA wrote:
a-French-Fan wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Alas, a lack of evidence is not evidence. We do have other ways to look at these prospects though, such as in terms of pure skills, or international competition (U-17, etc). I mean, let's face it. If Deni had a consistent jumper and was reliable from the free-throw line, everyone would be a lot higher on him.

But maybe you can answer my earlier question ... what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi Osman when he was drafted?


I do not have a good answer. Actually Osman #31 it was really a lack of respect for him, it is like Parker at #29 after leading a pro team at 18 or Doncic only at #3 after dominating Euroleague. Sometimes you can't understand draft choices. So ... maybe there is more consideration for Euroleague now, or even european pro leagues.
I give you an other case: Ntilikina #8 and Malédon expected between #15 and #25. Oh wait there is maybe a part of the answer: Osman was not the best prospect from his team, Saric was (even if draft in 2014). Like Malédon was not leader of junior french national team because Killian Hayes was better. It is like playing with a better prospect would decrease value of a player.


I'm not trying to explain why teams do what they do, but rather asking what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi was; or are you arguing that Cedi would deserve to be a top-5 pick in this draft? If so ... that's a whole other problem.

Is it Deni's playmaking ability for his age? Cedi has demonstrated some ability to create and even be a primary scorer in international games, but maybe that wasn't on display when he was 19?


For the first point: sure Cedi was not a top 5, but maybe a top 15 or even top 10. Deni a top 5? This draft class seems quite weak ... So I don't no if he is a top 5, but I think he is safe prospect.

For the second point: At 19, Cedi showed playmaking ability too. I think scouts pay real attentions to young euroleague prospects for years.About what he showed with U20 turkish NT, U20 euro tournament is not watched as U18 is, because the most often very good U20 prospects are already pros and play for A team, are already drafted or want to develop their skillsalone (look at french U20 NT last summer: Malédon, Doumbouya and Hayes were not here).

However, I tried to give some elements, but you won't find an answer that satisfy you. Evaluating euro prospect is a hard task, because they play in a different culture, whereas you can make comparisons between NCAA players. Some times you get real steals from prospects playing in Europe (hello Spurs ^^), sometimes you expect too much (Bargagni had a decent career, but was he really a first choice?). But that is also the same thing for US players, Bargani had a better career than Kwane Brown or Michael Olowokandi e.g.
And last point, NBA franchises don't understand sometimes how to develop young euro players. Look at Ntilikina case with Knicks, maybe he was not a #8 level, but how Knicks dealt with his case, you will never know as time he doesn't play for an other franchise (sorry, I choose a french player again as an example, but they are players that I know the most).
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#128 » by Pistol King » Wed May 27, 2020 5:30 pm

JonFromVA wrote:But maybe you can answer my earlier question ... what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi Osman when he was drafted?

Better star potential and better all around game potential. When you follow Cedi's youth career, his numbers were never really eye opening, while Deni averaged great numbers and proved to be the main offensive option. You see that the default starting point of Cedi is being a good role player, and the default starting point of Deni is being an all around star player

Let's make a quick comparison:

In his Euroleague U-18 games Deni averaged 24.7ppg 11.4rpg and 6.3 apg. 1.4spg and 0.8 bpg

In his Eurolaegue U-18 games Osman averaged 14ppg, 6.5rpg, 1.5apg 5spg and 0 bpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his FIBA U-18 games Deni averaged 17.3ppg, 7.4rpg and 3apg, 1.4spg and 0.8bpg

In his FIBA U-18 games Osman averaged 6.4ppg, 2.2rpg, 0.9apg, 0.8spg and 0.1 bpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his FIBA U-20 games (In year 2014), when he was 19 years old, Osman averaged 13.7ppg, 4.1rpg, 2.5apg, 0.9spg and 0.1bpg

In his FIBA U-20 games (In year 2019), when he was 18 years old, Deni averaged 18.4ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.3apg, 2.1spg and 2.4bpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You clearly see what both was capable of when played against their own age. The big gap is undeniable.

The numbers in the Euroleague are in favor for Cedi so far, but I think that's due to him being a high floor medium ceiling type of prospect. You could see that there aren't big positive changes trough out his senior career. Averaged more or less the same numbers in 4 seasons in the Euroleague (6.7ppg), and showing the same issue in the NBA, while taking 1 year to adjust, then comes to his peak, and stays at the same level more or less without too much place to grow much more than what he has shown in his youth games (averaging 12ppg the last two years). With Deni I get the opposite impression. He's a medium floor high ceiling prospect who depends alot on the chances he gets. When he got those chances he has shown trough out his whole career he can be a main option.

Maccabi Tel Aviv's coach is a very defensive minded. So Deni, who is much better offensive player generally than a defensive one, needed to earn his chances in Maccabi through his defense, an area he was less known for. And after he stepped up his defense, in the last 8 games he already averaging 30mpg and 16.6ppg in the Israeli league, and 20mpg and 7.5ppg in the Euroleague, while having the best plus minus on the entire team in both competitions in these games stretch, which shows he needs to get bigger minutes than he got. And that's when he earn his minutes trough defense and when Maccabi already brought other experience players to run the show on the offensive end, which makes it hard for Deni to really show his offensive skills as he prove to be when the offense is rely on him much more.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#129 » by a-French-Fan » Wed May 27, 2020 10:43 pm

Pistol King wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:But maybe you can answer my earlier question ... what makes Deni a better prospect than Cedi Osman when he was drafted?

Better star potential and better all around game potential. When you follow Cedi's youth career, his numbers were never really eye opening, while Deni averaged great numbers and proved to be the main offensive option. You see that the default starting point of Cedi is being a good role player, and the default starting point of Deni is being an all around star player

Let's make a quick comparison:

In his Euroleague U-18 games Deni averaged 24.7ppg 11.4rpg and 6.3 apg. 1.4spg and 0.8 bpg

In his Eurolaegue U-18 games Osman averaged 14ppg, 6.5rpg, 1.5apg 5spg and 0 bpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his FIBA U-18 games Deni averaged 17.3ppg, 7.4rpg and 3apg, 1.4spg and 0.8bpg

In his FIBA U-18 games Osman averaged 6.4ppg, 2.2rpg, 0.9apg, 0.8spg and 0.1 bpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his FIBA U-20 games (In year 2014), when he was 19 years old, Osman averaged 13.7ppg, 4.1rpg, 2.5apg, 0.9spg and 0.1bpg

In his FIBA U-20 games (In year 2019), when he was 18 years old, Deni averaged 18.4ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.3apg, 2.1spg and 2.4bpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You clearly see what both was capable of when played against their own age. The big gap is undeniable.

The numbers in the Euroleague are in favor for Cedi so far, but I think that's due to him being a high floor medium ceiling type of prospect. You could see that there aren't big positive changes trough out his senior career. Averaged more or less the same numbers in 4 seasons in the Euroleague (6.7ppg), and showing the same issue in the NBA, while taking 1 year to adjust, then comes to his peak, and stays at the same level more or less without too much place to grow much more than what he has shown in his youth games (averaging 12ppg the last two years). With Deni I get the opposite impression. He's a medium floor high ceiling prospect who depends alot on the chances he gets. When he got those chances he has shown trough out his whole career he can be a main option.

Maccabi Tel Aviv's coach is a very defensive minded. So Deni, who is much better offensive player generally than a defensive one, needed to earn his chances in Maccabi through his defense, an area he was less known for. And after he stepped up his defense, in the last 8 games he already averaging 30mpg and 16.6ppg in the Israeli league, and 20mpg and 7.5ppg in the Euroleague, while having the best plus minus on the entire team in both competitions in these games stretch, which shows he needs to get bigger minutes than he got. And that's when he earn his minutes trough defense and when Maccabi already brought other experience players to run the show on the offensive end, which makes it hard for Deni to really show his offensive skills as he prove to be when the offense is rely on him much more.


Do you know any Euroleague coach that give minutes to a young player that didn't prove he could defend? ^^

I understand why you are so high on Deni but be very careful with U18 and U20 stats. When USA Saw Lebron, we thought we had the answer in France with Tahirou Sani. You have never heard about him? Normal, few years ago he played in Iceland. This guy averaged 70 points in french U15 elite, and had never shown anything at pro level.

About Euroleague U18, don't forget that majority of european prospects play as pro out Euroleague teams. As an example in France, Malédon, Doumbouya and Hayes never played U18 Euroleague. At 16 Doumbouya already played pro , Hayes and Malédon dominated Jeep Elite Espoirs league (U21, most of future french professionnal play there) and were in Jeep Elite at 17. Victor Wembanyama will never play U18 Euroleague but had already played in Eurocup at 16.

About U18 euro the most important is that players confirm at pro level few years after. As an example, look at Spain who won some Youth Euro last years. Where are their players now? So, sometimes guys having good stats in a U18 tournament may have great career then, but that is not true for every one.

About U20 euro, less and less good prospects play those tournaments.

So the real thing to look is what they did in Euroleague. And clearly, Deni did really good work ans deserve to be a top 10, even a top 5 would not be a scandal. And thanks you for your opinion about difference between him and Cedi as Euroleague players, beside the numbers.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#130 » by King Stannis » Tue Jun 2, 2020 9:26 pm

Anyone standing out and screaming "Pick me" this year?
Bend the knee.

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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#131 » by Stillwater » Wed Jun 3, 2020 3:03 pm

King Stannis wrote:Anyone standing out and screaming "Pick me" this year?

No
No Zion or Ja or Luka in the draft.
I mean Hayes Anthony Ball and Toppin are the top offense w meh defense picks , Okoro and Edwards are the best wing defenders that have some guard skill on or off ball but both need work shooting not only from deep but taking the right shot. Ramsey is a better shooter than both but lacks same head height and needs coached up.
Okongwu and Wiseman are intriguing interior options with Wiseman having elite rim runner ability similar to jaxson hayes and physical tools to become a defensive player of year type but lacks offensive footwork and range right now but morsoe lacks same bbiq defensively as Okongwu who has a higher floor and is also more mobile defending 2-5 that should let him play the pf and center role offensively and switch onto anyone defensively.
Then there is the high iq sleeper that cant shoot well in Avdija and high floor 3 and D types like Vassell or the freak athlete sb5 like Achiuwa
Or the versatile Haliburton or High upside Jalen stix Smith .
I like Stewart and Vassell more than most as pick at 6th sleepers if the lottery draw fs us
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#132 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 3, 2020 5:57 pm

Stillwater wrote:
King Stannis wrote:Anyone standing out and screaming "Pick me" this year?

No
No Zion or Ja or Luka in the draft.
I mean Hayes Anthony Ball and Toppin are the top offense w meh defense picks , Okoro and Edwards are the best wing defenders that have some guard skill on or off ball but both need work shooting not only from deep but taking the right shot. Ramsey is a better shooter than both but lacks same head height and needs coached up.
Okongwu and Wiseman are intriguing interior options with Wiseman having elite rim runner ability similar to jaxson hayes and physical tools to become a defensive player of year type but lacks offensive footwork and range right now but morsoe lacks same bbiq defensively as Okongwu who has a higher floor and is also more mobile defending 2-5 that should let him play the pf and center role offensively and switch onto anyone defensively.
Then there is the high iq sleeper that cant shoot well in Avdija and high floor 3 and D types like Vassell or the freak athlete sb5 like Achiuwa
Or the versatile Haliburton or High upside Jalen stix Smith .
I like Stewart and Vassell more than most as pick at 6th sleepers if the lottery draw fs us


This draft feels more like one where I would want to trade the #1 or #2 overall pick for more picks in the mid/late lotto, especially since most of the top rated prospects fall into areas that we've recently drafted a player high at and don't seem like they would be better/better enough to make the pick and replace them this early on. So for example maybe we could trade the #2 pick to the Knicks for #6, #25, and a future 1st with lotto protections. At #6 we could go for someone like Deni Avdija and then at #25 someone like Jalen Smith or Jaden McDaniels.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#133 » by Stillwater » Wed Jun 3, 2020 6:07 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
King Stannis wrote:Anyone standing out and screaming "Pick me" this year?

No
No Zion or Ja or Luka in the draft.
I mean Hayes Anthony Ball and Toppin are the top offense w meh defense picks , Okoro and Edwards are the best wing defenders that have some guard skill on or off ball but both need work shooting not only from deep but taking the right shot. Ramsey is a better shooter than both but lacks same head height and needs coached up.
Okongwu and Wiseman are intriguing interior options with Wiseman having elite rim runner ability similar to jaxson hayes and physical tools to become a defensive player of year type but lacks offensive footwork and range right now but morsoe lacks same bbiq defensively as Okongwu who has a higher floor and is also more mobile defending 2-5 that should let him play the pf and center role offensively and switch onto anyone defensively.
Then there is the high iq sleeper that cant shoot well in Avdija and high floor 3 and D types like Vassell or the freak athlete sb5 like Achiuwa
Or the versatile Haliburton or High upside Jalen stix Smith .
I like Stewart and Vassell more than most as pick at 6th sleepers if the lottery draw fs us


This draft feels more like one where I would want to trade the #1 or #2 overall pick for more picks in the mid/late lotto, especially since most of the top rated prospects fall into areas that we've recently drafted a player high at and don't seem like they would be better/better enough to make the pick and replace them this early on. So for example maybe we could trade the #2 pick to the Knicks for #6, #25, and a future 1st with lotto protections. At #6 we could go for someone like Deni Avdija and then at #25 someone like Jalen Smith or Jaden McDaniels.

yeah I am not sold we would do this at 1 or 2 until I see the draft order behind us. but maybe at 3 or 4 we would agree to move down a couple spots pick up an early 2nd or late first and still get Okongwu or Wiseman. I doubt we could still get them by doing that though unless the draft order is all team needing pgs right behind us that someone will try to leapfrog for Ball for example. I dont see any reason to not take one of those 2 bigs at 1 or 2 in this draft because most of the top ranked prospects like Edwards or Okoro are redundant with KPJ here at one or 2, and Dre is not staying in cle after next season if he stays this season, TT is gone etc. taking Ball or Hayes might be tempting after Garlands meh season but given Collin stepped up I doubt they take another pg or combo guard this year.
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#134 » by Revenged25 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 2:13 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:No
No Zion or Ja or Luka in the draft.
I mean Hayes Anthony Ball and Toppin are the top offense w meh defense picks , Okoro and Edwards are the best wing defenders that have some guard skill on or off ball but both need work shooting not only from deep but taking the right shot. Ramsey is a better shooter than both but lacks same head height and needs coached up.
Okongwu and Wiseman are intriguing interior options with Wiseman having elite rim runner ability similar to jaxson hayes and physical tools to become a defensive player of year type but lacks offensive footwork and range right now but morsoe lacks same bbiq defensively as Okongwu who has a higher floor and is also more mobile defending 2-5 that should let him play the pf and center role offensively and switch onto anyone defensively.
Then there is the high iq sleeper that cant shoot well in Avdija and high floor 3 and D types like Vassell or the freak athlete sb5 like Achiuwa
Or the versatile Haliburton or High upside Jalen stix Smith .
I like Stewart and Vassell more than most as pick at 6th sleepers if the lottery draw fs us


This draft feels more like one where I would want to trade the #1 or #2 overall pick for more picks in the mid/late lotto, especially since most of the top rated prospects fall into areas that we've recently drafted a player high at and don't seem like they would be better/better enough to make the pick and replace them this early on. So for example maybe we could trade the #2 pick to the Knicks for #6, #25, and a future 1st with lotto protections. At #6 we could go for someone like Deni Avdija and then at #25 someone like Jalen Smith or Jaden McDaniels.

yeah I am not sold we would do this at 1 or 2 until I see the draft order behind us. but maybe at 3 or 4 we would agree to move down a couple spots pick up an early 2nd or late first and still get Okongwu or Wiseman. I doubt we could still get them by doing that though unless the draft order is all team needing pgs right behind us that someone will try to leapfrog for Ball for example. I dont see any reason to not take one of those 2 bigs at 1 or 2 in this draft because most of the top ranked prospects like Edwards or Okoro are redundant with KPJ here at one or 2, and Dre is not staying in cle after next season if he stays this season, TT is gone etc. taking Ball or Hayes might be tempting after Garlands meh season but given Collin stepped up I doubt they take another pg or combo guard this year.


I can't argue with picking Wiseman or Okongwu in the top 2 as well if we don't trade back, specifically Wiseman if he has a clean medical report. Although Wiseman has a lot more questions, he's got the undeniably highest ceiling in this draft and more than worth the risk associated with him.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#135 » by Mind_Odyssey » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:38 pm

This draft is so bad, that Wiseman is almost a “safe” pick. Outside of him, Okoro, and Edwards, I don’t like anybody.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#136 » by Stillwater » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:05 pm

This is my way too soon pre combine(if there ever is one) pre-workouts( dito) big board for fit on the roster
this is not a overall value as a prospect big board at all just fit based on likely roster movement and current core.
1 Okongwu- high ceiling prospect w/ highest floor of any multiposition defender and has strong finishing ability and footwork / athleticism.Along with a above average bbiq for a prospect his age that isnt a floor general. needs work as a passer and to refine his outside shot so it is an option for him. can play the 4 or the 5 long term once the offense improves outisde the paint.
2 Wiseman- raw defensively outside of at the rim so is a project but with elite measureables and decent lateral athlete. Needs to improve shot mechanics and bbiq to improve on both sides of the ball. strictly a rim runner right now.
3 Okoro- elite defensive wing with a lot of promise offensively slightly under sized to play the 3 full time so that could hurt him for Cle scouts to some degree but has a decent handle to get to the line and is a wip as a shooter. very explosive athlete with elite finishing above the rim.
4 Edwards- mixed bag prospect has a hot and cold streak with his shooting and scoring, needs to improve his decision making but the elite athletic ability and first option ability to take over games is possibly worth the gamble along with physical ability to be a above average defender when he has the hunger , so despite needing the ball in his hands and high usage which is why he is lower on the list for fit he is still a high enough upside prospect to warrant the ranking.
5 Vassell- above average 3/d wing who would be the 2nd best fit if he had elite length to play the 3 goven his floor is pretty high but as is projects to be a replacement as the starting off guard to justify a high lottery ranking for CLE with excellent size for that position.
6 Ball- has not shown enough defensively so he is down on the list with CLE needing defenders and being a high usage scoring pg also is not a great fit with the roster in place, however his offense skill set overall and the ability to create it for himself and others is a good fit on any team so he gets the ranking here.+ he has the size to play serviceable defense if he chooses too.
- after that if trading down for a more assets sim prospects after top options gone justify passing on a potential run of guards like ANthony,Haliburton,Hayes etc in the 7-12 range where others could fall some that are better fits for CLE:
7. Toppin- high level interior scorer with upside defensively but lacks a legit jumper lacks elite interior length without being a proven defender and not a great fit with Love still in CLE.So makes sense if Love is to be moved soon.
8-12 sleepers like Nesmith for his elite shooting at the sf position, Achiuwa as a high level 3-4 defender or small ball 5 , Stewart as a big body interior scorer with upside defensively and the lenght to back it up, Avdija for his high iq and upside as a point forward and Jalen Smith the floor stretching 4-5 option who can rim protect and finish strong.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#137 » by NYG » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:18 pm

If the following things become true...

1. The clear cut Tier 1 by draft night is James Wiseman, LaMelo Ball and Anthony Edwards.

2. Cleveland wins the draft lottery.

3. The trade up offers either don’t exist or aren’t good at all.

Who would the Cavs draft and why?
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#138 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:38 pm

NYG wrote:If the following things become true...

1. The clear cut Tier 1 by draft night is James Wiseman, LaMelo Ball and Anthony Edwards.

2. Cleveland wins the draft lottery.

3. The trade up offers either don’t exist or aren’t good at all.

Who would the Cavs draft and why?

That scenario is unlikely to be 100 % reality. I mean those 3 could be considered the top prospects by most orgs or analysts but if thats the case unless CLE made it known they didn't agree with that,then its a given there would be offers to leap frog some teams by more desperate ones...that would be worthy of being considered.
That being said Edwards probably doesnt have enough of a lead in the clubhouse to get the nod over Wiseman's upside for now but id not be shocked to hear Edwards Okongwu or Ball's name called either based on higher floors.
My gut tells me they are seriously considering Ball despite the guard logjam but probably pass with odds hed be a flight risk, might fall in love with Wiseman's upside if he kills it in a private work out but maybe to risky at 1 without one, and probably see the value of Edwards and Okoro about the same only a touch better than Hayes or Vassell but none of them being great fits either so the only real question is how high of a ceiling do they value Okongwu because his floor to defend 4 positions is possibly worth the top pick if they see enough upside.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#139 » by NYG » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:49 am

Stillwater wrote:
NYG wrote:If the following things become true...

1. The clear cut Tier 1 by draft night is James Wiseman, LaMelo Ball and Anthony Edwards.

2. Cleveland wins the draft lottery.

3. The trade up offers either don’t exist or aren’t good at all.

Who would the Cavs draft and why?

That scenario is unlikely to be 100 % reality. I mean those 3 could be considered the top prospects by most orgs or analysts but if thats the case unless CLE made it known they didn't agree with that,then its a given there would be offers to leap frog some teams by more desperate ones...that would be worthy of being considered.
That being said Edwards probably doesnt have enough of a lead in the clubhouse to get the nod over Wiseman's upside for now but id not be shocked to hear Edwards Okongwu or Ball's name called either based on higher floors.
My gut tells me they are seriously considering Ball despite the guard logjam but probably pass with odds hed be a flight risk, might fall in love with Wiseman's upside if he kills it in a private work out but maybe to risky at 1 without one, and probably see the value of Edwards and Okoro about the same only a touch better than Hayes or Vassell but none of them being great fits either so the only real question is how high of a ceiling do they value Okongwu because his floor to defend 4 positions is possibly worth the top pick if they see enough upside.


Let’s say the best offer was 6, 27 and 38

Would Cleveland take that or just draft Ball/Edwards?
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#140 » by Stillwater » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:47 am

NYG wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
NYG wrote:If the following things become true...

1. The clear cut Tier 1 by draft night is James Wiseman, LaMelo Ball and Anthony Edwards.

2. Cleveland wins the draft lottery.

3. The trade up offers either don’t exist or aren’t good at all.

Who would the Cavs draft and why?

That scenario is unlikely to be 100 % reality. I mean those 3 could be considered the top prospects by most orgs or analysts but if thats the case unless CLE made it known they didn't agree with that,then its a given there would be offers to leap frog some teams by more desperate ones...that would be worthy of being considered.
That being said Edwards probably doesnt have enough of a lead in the clubhouse to get the nod over Wiseman's upside for now but id not be shocked to hear Edwards Okongwu or Ball's name called either based on higher floors.
My gut tells me they are seriously considering Ball despite the guard logjam but probably pass with odds hed be a flight risk, might fall in love with Wiseman's upside if he kills it in a private work out but maybe to risky at 1 without one, and probably see the value of Edwards and Okoro about the same only a touch better than Hayes or Vassell but none of them being great fits either so the only real question is how high of a ceiling do they value Okongwu because his floor to defend 4 positions is possibly worth the top pick if they see enough upside.


Let’s say the best offer was 6, 27 and 38

Would Cleveland take that or just draft Ball/Edwards?

From top 2 doubt they'd take the trade but with Wiseman and Edwards gone at 3 they probably take 6 and 27 if they dont like Ball or See much difference in value between any prospects between 3 and 6 and dont get a better offer like okeke and the 12th to 15th wherever it is/future 2nd from Orlando
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater

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