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Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#61 » by Stillwater » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:41 pm

at this point in time I think it's a mistake to try to look for only prospects that might fit given the org has no idea what players or rotations they want to use yet and who would compliment them as far as role players and so then whomever they pick high lottery who is likely more than a role player will impact any need to adjust the line ups all over again, or instead if the drafted player is a long ways off physically like Garland or a 3 yr project like Sexton was/is then the org will have chosen to keep using less than perfect rotations for the sake of development if it is necessary for the tank to keep rolling in 20-21.
It's almost to the point where anyone trying to claim they know best for this team long term is just pissing in the breeze, maybe you can control some outcomes that are less than favorable by turning left or right, but when the wind shifts your sol.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#62 » by gflem » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:56 pm

Stillwater wrote:at this point in time I think it's a mistake to try to look for only prospects that might fit given the org has no idea what players or rotations they want to use yet and who would compliment them as far as role players and so then whomever they pick high lottery who is likely more than a role player will impact any need to adjust the line ups all over again, or instead if the drafted player is a long ways off physically like Garland or a 3 yr project like Sexton was/is then the org will have chosen to keep using less than perfect rotations for the sake of development if it is necessary for the tank to keep rolling in 20-21.
It's almost to the point where anyone trying to claim they know best for this team long term is just pissing in the breeze, maybe you can control some outcomes that are less than favorable by turning left or right, but when the wind shifts your sol.

I agree that it is too early to try to fill positions rather than get the best talent, but for me Wiseman makes so much sense, in that he may well be the best player in the upcoming draft. Whether at a position of strength or not, that is why I am leaning in that direction.
Part of my thinking is that I don't see the Sexton/Garland backcourt working out. I didn't think it would work from the start, and nothing I have seen since has changed my thinking on that. I don't necessarily want to give up on the young guys, but I also don't see "franchise player" written all over any of them either.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#63 » by Stillwater » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:29 am

gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:at this point in time I think it's a mistake to try to look for only prospects that might fit given the org has no idea what players or rotations they want to use yet and who would compliment them as far as role players and so then whomever they pick high lottery who is likely more than a role player will impact any need to adjust the line ups all over again, or instead if the drafted player is a long ways off physically like Garland or a 3 yr project like Sexton was/is then the org will have chosen to keep using less than perfect rotations for the sake of development if it is necessary for the tank to keep rolling in 20-21.
It's almost to the point where anyone trying to claim they know best for this team long term is just pissing in the breeze, maybe you can control some outcomes that are less than favorable by turning left or right, but when the wind shifts your sol.

I agree that it is too early to try to fill positions rather than get the best talent, but for me Wiseman makes so much sense, in that he may well be the best player in the upcoming draft. Whether at a position of strength or not, that is why I am leaning in that direction.
Part of my thinking is that I don't see the Sexton/Garland backcourt working out. I didn't think it would work from the start, and nothing I have seen since has changed my thinking on that. I don't necessarily want to give up on the young guys, but I also don't see "franchise player" written all over any of them either.

see thats my point though...it's not about if the Sexton garland backcourt will or will not work because it was never a mandatory situation to justify taking Garland in the first place. they like both and yes the odds they share the backcourt on a good enough defensive team to win games is slim, but the odds that makes one or the other less important to the success of the team is also not at all the case. Right now I could see them drafting another ball dominant guard just like Sexton just like Garland,just like KPJ having 4 score first guards isn't a bad thing but it means they have to have decent off ball cutters around whomever is out there too.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#64 » by tundraknight » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:21 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Wiseman seems like he's destined to be a Cavalier. Well, maybe he's too tall for a typical Cavalier top-pick, but gotta like how he's barely played in College. Another raw high upside player.


gflem wrote:At this point I am thinking Wiseman or bust.

This is a good read in imo

I’m here to make the case that not only is James Wiseman the best prospect in the draft but that we’ve
never before seen so little respect for a player who should be a consensus top 3 projection.

The case for James Wiseman starts with his obviously elite physical profile. But he not only has great size and length at 7-1 with a 7-4 1/2 wingspan but he moves like a small forward, showing quick twitch, change of direction and the type of coordination seen in NBA wings. These physical attributes alone make him a potential top 5 pick but there's so much more to like about Wiseman than just his size and agility.

It's well known that centers generally take longer to develop than guards. Some of this has to do with the process of growing into their bigger frames and gaining strength and coordination after big growth spurts. And it's also a product of the way the game is played at the lower levels of play, with guards dominating the ball, leaving the big men to clean the glass and play defense. But at just 18 years old (19 by draft day) James Wiseman already has an advanced skill level, showing good footwork in the paint, an un-guardable turn-around jumper and flashes of open court ball-handling ability. He can face-up and take the ball to the hoop or let it fly from outside. He's certain to develop a good (if not great) outside shot over the years, and maybe sooner than later.

Now just imagine this 7-1 athlete flying down the court, doing his best Giannis impression with the long dribble and the easy dunk off the euro step. Imagine how un-guardable he'll be shooting from deep with NBA spacing. And we haven't even talked about his best attributes: crashing the offensive glass and defending the rim on defense.

As far as comparisons go I think Wiseman is a step below where Anthony Davis was as a college prospect. He's bigger than Davis but with a bit less finesse and polish and not quite as good timing defensively. He's got that freaky Mitchell Robinson-esque athleticism but with better strength and a much more advanced game than Robinson (think bigger Chris Bosh).

We've seen plenty of debate in the past about NBA prospects with a wide discrepancy of opinions but I can't remember a time when a player stood out so clearly to me as a top 3 prospect but got so little love from fellow draftniks and pundits. If this was a stacked draft class like 2018 I could see Wiseman not getting all the love but in this less than stellar group.... come on man!

We only got to see James Wiseman play 3 college games and his last game against Oregon was a bit of a dud, with foul trouble slowing him down. If he was playing a full college season he'd be making plays every week that would make our jaws drop - and make all scouts into believers. For those who remember seeing Anthony Davis at Kentucky, it was clear from the beginning of the season that he was really good. But as the season went along he started to find his rhythm and take his game to the next level, showing us just how special he was. I believe Wiseman would have been on that same trajectory and could have played his way to consensus no.1 overall status if he'd played a full freshman year. But thanks to the impeccable morality (cough) of the NCAA and Wiseman's decision to sign with an agent we'll be left to wonder what could have been.

Wiseman isn't a perfect prospect, none of them are. He relies too much on his left hand, he sometimes lacks intensity and he needs to add to his lower body strength and develop a more solid base. But you can be sure he's working behind the scenes as we speak and will reemerge from his hiatus stronger, more polished on offense and with a big ol' chip on his shoulder.

Putting this take out there, that Wiseman is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a bit risky. Big men often bust in the NBA. A quick look at NBA draft history will show you that time after time the tall, high-upside intriguing center flops when he gets to the League. But some of them succeed. And some become stars.

Wiseman will have plenty of opportunity to prove his worth before draft day. We can be sure that as draft workout season gets into full swing we'll see tantalizing video clips of a 7-1 stud looking more chiseled and explosive than ever, shooting it from deep and showing out in the pre-draft workouts. Until then the low rankings from Internet scouts will probably continue but I doubt most NBA scouts have dropped him out of the top 5 - and he'll stay at no.1 in our mock draft.

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/2020/01/pounding-table-for-james-wiseman.html?m=1
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#65 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:47 pm

tundraknight wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Wiseman seems like he's destined to be a Cavalier. Well, maybe he's too tall for a typical Cavalier top-pick, but gotta like how he's barely played in College. Another raw high upside player.


gflem wrote:At this point I am thinking Wiseman or bust.

This is a good read in imo

I’m here to make the case that not only is James Wiseman the best prospect in the draft but that we’ve
never before seen so little respect for a player who should be a consensus top 3 projection.

The case for James Wiseman starts with his obviously elite physical profile. But he not only has great size and length at 7-1 with a 7-4 1/2 wingspan but he moves like a small forward, showing quick twitch, change of direction and the type of coordination seen in NBA wings. These physical attributes alone make him a potential top 5 pick but there's so much more to like about Wiseman than just his size and agility.

It's well known that centers generally take longer to develop than guards. Some of this has to do with the process of growing into their bigger frames and gaining strength and coordination after big growth spurts. And it's also a product of the way the game is played at the lower levels of play, with guards dominating the ball, leaving the big men to clean the glass and play defense. But at just 18 years old (19 by draft day) James Wiseman already has an advanced skill level, showing good footwork in the paint, an un-guardable turn-around jumper and flashes of open court ball-handling ability. He can face-up and take the ball to the hoop or let it fly from outside. He's certain to develop a good (if not great) outside shot over the years, and maybe sooner than later.

Now just imagine this 7-1 athlete flying down the court, doing his best Giannis impression with the long dribble and the easy dunk off the euro step. Imagine how un-guardable he'll be shooting from deep with NBA spacing. And we haven't even talked about his best attributes: crashing the offensive glass and defending the rim on defense.

As far as comparisons go I think Wiseman is a step below where Anthony Davis was as a college prospect. He's bigger than Davis but with a bit less finesse and polish and not quite as good timing defensively. He's got that freaky Mitchell Robinson-esque athleticism but with better strength and a much more advanced game than Robinson (think bigger Chris Bosh).

We've seen plenty of debate in the past about NBA prospects with a wide discrepancy of opinions but I can't remember a time when a player stood out so clearly to me as a top 3 prospect but got so little love from fellow draftniks and pundits. If this was a stacked draft class like 2018 I could see Wiseman not getting all the love but in this less than stellar group.... come on man!

We only got to see James Wiseman play 3 college games and his last game against Oregon was a bit of a dud, with foul trouble slowing him down. If he was playing a full college season he'd be making plays every week that would make our jaws drop - and make all scouts into believers. For those who remember seeing Anthony Davis at Kentucky, it was clear from the beginning of the season that he was really good. But as the season went along he started to find his rhythm and take his game to the next level, showing us just how special he was. I believe Wiseman would have been on that same trajectory and could have played his way to consensus no.1 overall status if he'd played a full freshman year. But thanks to the impeccable morality (cough) of the NCAA and Wiseman's decision to sign with an agent we'll be left to wonder what could have been.

Wiseman isn't a perfect prospect, none of them are. He relies too much on his left hand, he sometimes lacks intensity and he needs to add to his lower body strength and develop a more solid base. But you can be sure he's working behind the scenes as we speak and will reemerge from his hiatus stronger, more polished on offense and with a big ol' chip on his shoulder.

Putting this take out there, that Wiseman is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a bit risky. Big men often bust in the NBA. A quick look at NBA draft history will show you that time after time the tall, high-upside intriguing center flops when he gets to the League. But some of them succeed. And some become stars.

Wiseman will have plenty of opportunity to prove his worth before draft day. We can be sure that as draft workout season gets into full swing we'll see tantalizing video clips of a 7-1 stud looking more chiseled and explosive than ever, shooting it from deep and showing out in the pre-draft workouts. Until then the low rankings from Internet scouts will probably continue but I doubt most NBA scouts have dropped him out of the top 5 - and he'll stay at no.1 in our mock draft.

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/2020/01/pounding-table-for-james-wiseman.html?m=1


Yeah, I just assumed Wiseman would be top-3, but times have changed for bigs and maybe dropping him down given the question marks makes sense.

fwiw, nbadraft.net has him #2 behind Edwards with a score of 99 but with a comparison of Hassan Whiteside/DeAndre Jordan?

They gave DeAndre Ayton a 101 score and a comparison of Robinson/Kemp and he went #1 in a draft with Doncic, Young, and Jackson Jr who all seem to have more potential impact in the modern game.

So, it kind of makes sense that some people are holding down the hype on Wiseman; but if he's more AD than DaJ, obviously that would change things greatly.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#66 » by Stillwater » Sun Feb 9, 2020 3:06 pm

With other prospects making noise and Wiseman in the shadows of the media spotlight the only thing keeping him ranked so high is how great he was before suspended. Small window same as Garland in some respects as far as data collection for scouts. You lose the meaningful proof against in conference match ups and to see how the kid adjust to defenses game planning against him.
I would be less confident taking him at 1 if a different position player was more proven . But maybe they'll get a private work out invite in San Fran because his agent is pushing gsw but will settle for a high pick $ here.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#67 » by JonFromVA » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:26 pm

Before the one and done rule, scouts had no choice but to rank players with just high-school experience against players with college experience. So, even if the media can't, they should be able to figure something out.

I will point out this, however, the list of players who skipped College so they could be drafted the next year is looking pretty crappy: Brandon Jennings, Emmanuel Mudiay, Mitchell Robinson, Darius Bazely, Satnam Bhamara. and Thon Maker.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is there, but if a player can't be bothered to go the NCAA route or simply can't qualify for a decent basketball school ... that may be telling us something.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#68 » by Revenged25 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:48 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Before the one and done rule, scouts had no choice but to rank players with just high-school experience against players with college experience. So, even if the media can't, they should be able to figure something out.

I will point out this, however, the list of players who skipped College so they could be drafted the next year is looking pretty crappy: Brandon Jennings, Emmanuel Mudiay, Mitchell Robinson, Darius Bazely, Satnam Bhamara. and Thon Maker.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is there, but if a player can't be bothered to go the NCAA route or simply can't qualify for a decent basketball school ... that may be telling us something.


I think it might be less that they didn't play in the NCAA but more so for some of them that they didn't play competitive basketball for a year period. Going overseas isn't a bad option as they can still get competitive basketball that could be the same/better level of talent than the NCAA, but the style of basketball played overseas is often different than that of the NCAA/NBA and with minimal to no minutes for a lot of players in those situations they aren't really developing much there either.

I'm still on the Deni Avdija train although he's been getting little burn depending on the league etc, but we've seen the skills he possesses in high level competition when given an opportunity to play.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#69 » by JonFromVA » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:10 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Before the one and done rule, scouts had no choice but to rank players with just high-school experience against players with college experience. So, even if the media can't, they should be able to figure something out.

I will point out this, however, the list of players who skipped College so they could be drafted the next year is looking pretty crappy: Brandon Jennings, Emmanuel Mudiay, Mitchell Robinson, Darius Bazely, Satnam Bhamara. and Thon Maker.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is there, but if a player can't be bothered to go the NCAA route or simply can't qualify for a decent basketball school ... that may be telling us something.


I think it might be less that they didn't play in the NCAA but more so for some of them that they didn't play competitive basketball for a year period. Going overseas isn't a bad option as they can still get competitive basketball that could be the same/better level of talent than the NCAA, but the style of basketball played overseas is often different than that of the NCAA/NBA and with minimal to no minutes for a lot of players in those situations they aren't really developing much there either.

I'm still on the Deni Avdija train although he's been getting little burn depending on the league etc, but we've seen the skills he possesses in high level competition when given an opportunity to play.


Still, even sitting at home for a year - the player should be back in the flow by their second season.

What I'm suggesting here is that these guys by skipping the NCAA may be self selecting themselves to an extent. Even for people who go to College to get a job; to a prospective employer: the time is not so much about what the student learns while in College, but that they've demonstrated enough self-motivation, discipline, and learning ability to get through it.

Obviously the NBA isn't looking for "mensas" and BBIQ doesn't always have much to do with IQ; but the ability to adapt and thrive when challenged to do things outside their comfort zone is applicable.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#70 » by jbk1234 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:44 pm

My feeling is still take BPA. The only thing that should maybe change is do it regardless of whether that player agrees to a workout. When LBJ left, Love was our best player and Nance was probably right behind him. Four first round picks later and I feel like that hasn't changed. You have to trust your scouting department and not get enamored with kids because they agree to a private work out.

I get that you have to give guys you draft time to develop. Certainly more than a single season. But I feel like the development has been painfully slow and incremental at best. These guys have been gifted a lot of minutes. Absent someone breaking out next year, or significant improvement in other aspects of their game, we've got role players or replacement level starters. Might as well draft BPA and make a trade if you must.

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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#71 » by JJ_PR » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:28 am

Deni Avdija is giving me Doncic vibes. I think he'll be the best player from this draft class.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#72 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:02 pm

JJ_PR wrote:Deni Avdija is giving me Doncic vibes. I think he'll be the best player from this draft class.

I'd draft Hayes before this kid tbh if I was going foreign born foreign playing prospects. That does not include Americans who skipped college to play there like RJ Hampton who is overrated as a prospect and LaMelo who played in a weak league putting up padded stats as if that somehow makes him good.
Avdija looks like he has solid fundamentals and good sized role player at the 2/3 despite not being a NBA level athlete...but when you add he severely lacks the IQ of a Luka and lacks the shooting ability of Luka and Lacks the playmaking ability of Luka I don't know where you get the vibes you are referencing at all.
My guess is he goes late first at this point if not early 2nd.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#73 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:55 am

who knows what types of moves or direction this org is going in but I am really digging this kids 2 way game and nice floor as an option around 5-8
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/648458/
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#74 » by Revenged25 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:46 am

Stillwater wrote:who knows what types of moves or direction this org is going in but I am really digging this kids 2 way game and nice floor as an option around 5-8
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/648458/


I know you're not high on him, but I still think Deni Avdija would be the best option, especially in that range. Cedi's new contract is that of a rotation/low end starter so drafting a SF that can shoot the 3, defend, distribute, and rebound isn't a bad thing. Sure he isn't the best finisher and needs to improve his off hand, but we already have 3 players that prefer to drive to the basket rather than take a 3 so it's not an issue.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#75 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:29 am

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:who knows what types of moves or direction this org is going in but I am really digging this kids 2 way game and nice floor as an option around 5-8
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/648458/


I know you're not high on him, but I still think Deni Avdija would be the best option, especially in that range. Cedi's new contract is that of a rotation/low end starter so drafting a SF that can shoot the 3, defend, distribute, and rebound isn't a bad thing. Sure he isn't the best finisher and needs to improve his off hand, but we already have 3 players that prefer to drive to the basket rather than take a 3 so it's not an issue.

Could be an option for someone late lottery but barring dispelling athleticism concerns by killing it at the combine or something I can't imagine too many orgs seeing him as a lottery prospect. Has he done something recently to suggest he could be? I haven't bothered checking his game at all lately tbh. I think there are some things he does very well that can get him into the league but that's all I'm seeing last year anyway
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#76 » by Revenged25 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:19 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:who knows what types of moves or direction this org is going in but I am really digging this kids 2 way game and nice floor as an option around 5-8
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/648458/


I know you're not high on him, but I still think Deni Avdija would be the best option, especially in that range. Cedi's new contract is that of a rotation/low end starter so drafting a SF that can shoot the 3, defend, distribute, and rebound isn't a bad thing. Sure he isn't the best finisher and needs to improve his off hand, but we already have 3 players that prefer to drive to the basket rather than take a 3 so it's not an issue.

Could be an option for someone late lottery but barring dispelling athleticism concerns by killing it at the combine or something I can't imagine too many orgs seeing him as a lottery prospect. Has he done something recently to suggest he could be? I haven't bothered checking his game at all lately tbh. I think there are some things he does very well that can get him into the league but that's all I'm seeing last year anyway


They've finally given him some opportunities in EuroLeague and IBSL has had strong performances in both. He's not going to make you think he's Luka, LeBron, or Giannis, but he's got more than enough to succeed in the NBA.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#77 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:19 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I know you're not high on him, but I still think Deni Avdija would be the best option, especially in that range. Cedi's new contract is that of a rotation/low end starter so drafting a SF that can shoot the 3, defend, distribute, and rebound isn't a bad thing. Sure he isn't the best finisher and needs to improve his off hand, but we already have 3 players that prefer to drive to the basket rather than take a 3 so it's not an issue.

Could be an option for someone late lottery but barring dispelling athleticism concerns by killing it at the combine or something I can't imagine too many orgs seeing him as a lottery prospect. Has he done something recently to suggest he could be? I haven't bothered checking his game at all lately tbh. I think there are some things he does very well that can get him into the league but that's all I'm seeing last year anyway


They've finally given him some opportunities in EuroLeague and IBSL has had strong performances in both. He's not going to make you think he's Luka, LeBron, or Giannis, but he's got more than enough to succeed in the NBA.

idk man...he's a terrible free throw shooter for a wing and his rebounding is meh esp considering most are all defensive rebs at the end of shot clock clear outs. The overall package is pretty unimpressive imo so all of it has to based on what they think they can turn him into being he has a good bbiq and moves well , but given the lack of athleticism and the necessity for it to be impactful in the NBA unless you are a knock down shooter ball handling dynamo that can get his own shot & finish with finesse the projection is end of rotation role player on a non contender... aka a starter in CLE
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#78 » by tundraknight » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:22 pm

^While we’re on the discussion of Deni Avdija, Koby Altman is supposedly in Israel right now scouting him.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/cleveland-cavaliers-gm-koby-altman-headed-overseas-to-watch-rising-draft-prospect-deni-avdija.html
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#79 » by Davies155 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:23 pm

tundraknight wrote:^While we’re on the discussion of Deni Avdija, Koby Altman is supposedly in Israel right now scouting him.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/cleveland-cavaliers-gm-koby-altman-headed-overseas-to-watch-rising-draft-prospect-deni-avdija.html

Has wrong stats in the article.
Avdija is averging 11.5 ppg in the last two games in the euroleague and not 4.2 like is written in the article.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#80 » by JonFromVA » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:15 pm

Davies155 wrote:
tundraknight wrote:^While we’re on the discussion of Deni Avdija, Koby Altman is supposedly in Israel right now scouting him.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/cleveland-cavaliers-gm-koby-altman-headed-overseas-to-watch-rising-draft-prospect-deni-avdija.html

Has wrong stats in the article.
Avdija is averging 11.5 ppg in the last two games in the euroleague and not 4.2 like is written in the article.


Maybe they're not counting Euroleague qualifier games as Euroleague games?

RealGM has him at 4.17 ppg in 23 Euroleague games, and 12.21 ppg in 19 I-BSL games.

Hard to be impressed by numbers like that ...

Deni was the MVP of the 2019 U20 championship A.

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