Game 12: Cleveland Cavaliers (4-7) vs. Philadelphia 76ers (7-5) - 3:00 PM ET

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[tundraknight]

If the Cavaliers want to tank they should’ve started this from the get go.

Still with their 4 total wins, they’re only 2.5 games back for the worst record on NBA Tankathon.

Honestly I think it would be best for Love to finally be traded (for the right deal of course).

It would just be so nice to have an elite defensive big.

A 2-way Combo Forward would be nice too..

[tundraknight]

Finally the Cavaliers are going to be playing back to back games for the first time this season.

This was the first game of their “5 games in 7 nights”.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to Load Management Love and TT for all of the back to backs this season to help keep them fresh and healthy. Like a lot of other teams have been doing with their star players and/or important veterans.

[Stillwater]

anyone think Beilein is regretting the move to the nba yet? that was probably the worst game ive seen all season without one single positive comment.
Garland needs to come off the bench when facing long defenders esp when he cant find the net to save his life. i am starting to get anthony bennett vibes here . tons of skill, zero execution.
im sure eventually he will figure out whats wrong but this goes beyond rust.
does anyone else think he was over picked or am i just not giving him enough time and it will all work out ?
idk at this point

[Revenged25]

anyone think Beilein is regretting the move to the nba yet? that was probably the worst game ive seen all season without one single positive comment.
Garland needs to come off the bench when facing long defenders esp when he cant find the net to save his life. i am starting to get anthony bennett vibes here . tons of skill, zero execution.
im sure eventually he will figure out whats wrong but this goes beyond rust.
does anyone else think he was over picked or am i just not giving him enough time and it will all work out ?
idk at this point

Considering most of us wanted a trade back and to try and draft someone like Sekou as we already had Sexton to play point...

[Stillwater]

anyone think Beilein is regretting the move to the nba yet? that was probably the worst game ive seen all season without one single positive comment.
Garland needs to come off the bench when facing long defenders esp when he cant find the net to save his life. i am starting to get anthony bennett vibes here . tons of skill, zero execution.
im sure eventually he will figure out whats wrong but this goes beyond rust.
does anyone else think he was over picked or am i just not giving him enough time and it will all work out ?
idk at this point

Considering most of us wanted a trade back and to try and draft someone like Sekou as we already had Sexton to play point...

i mean even if sexton has to play off ball next years draft class has a couple pgs in Garlands tier. i just think they might be scratching their heads trying to figure out what can be done to help Garland succeed.

[JonFromVA]

I still believe Garland should continue to start. They're bringing him along slow and trying to integrate him in to the system rather than just setting him loose.

I'd rather see us continue to invest in our lottery pick than say giving starting minutes to Clarkson. Delly is better at running offense, but he hasn't been able to shoot since hurting his thumb.

[Stillwater]

I still believe Garland should continue to start. They're bringing him along slow and trying to integrate him in to the system rather than just setting him loose.

I'd rather see us continue to invest in our lottery pick than say giving starting minutes to Clarkson. Delly is better at running offense, but he hasn't been able to shoot since hurting his thumb.

idk at some point the consistent shooting woes are going to get to him mentally. I get your point and agree to some degree as this is a rebuild and he needs reps, I just think they would be better off playing Knight as the starting pg for awhile to do two things: 1 boost Knights stock, and 2 allow Garland to run the 2nd unit against other 2nd units to get his chops in until the shots start falling.
Right now he is a boy among men and it really is only helping him to recognize what defenders do and don't do that he will face in the future provided he produced enough to actually earn the starting gig. I think those experiences as good as they are he is not ready for yet.
Lets say they leave him in the sl and he continues to avg sub 40% shooting , all season. Are the Cavs looking for another pg in 2020?

put him on the bench rotation at least till he gets the system down

[JonFromVA]

I still believe Garland should continue to start. They're bringing him along slow and trying to integrate him in to the system rather than just setting him loose.

I'd rather see us continue to invest in our lottery pick than say giving starting minutes to Clarkson. Delly is better at running offense, but he hasn't been able to shoot since hurting his thumb.

idk at some point the consistent shooting woes are going to get to him mentally. I get your point and agree to some degree as this is a rebuild and he needs reps, I just think they would be better off playing Knight as the starting pg for awhile to do two things: 1 boost Knights stock, and 2 allow Garland to run the 2nd unit against other 2nd units to get his chops in until the shots start falling.
Right now he is a boy among men and it really is only helping him to recognize what defenders do and don't do that he will face in the future provided he produced enough to actually earn the starting gig. I think those experiences as good as they are he is not ready for yet.
Lets say they leave him in the sl and he continues to avg sub 40% shooting , all season. Are the Cavs looking for another pg in 2020?

put him on the bench rotation at least till he gets the system down

He's been primarily taking tough shots off his own dribble - I believe these are actually shots he can make, but he may just need more volume to find and lock-in the range. I think JB's goal, otoh, is to increase our passing and let the offense create more open looks for him.

So, that's what they're working towards doing rather than letting the offense become dependent on hero ball from him or Collin.

fwiw, I don't think he's being harmed - and learning to play with a consistent group should be helpful - and I have zero interest in showcasing other players. Implementing new systems takes time. The key is that they stick with it and continue to learn from the L's.

[Stillwater]

I still believe Garland should continue to start. They're bringing him along slow and trying to integrate him in to the system rather than just setting him loose.

I'd rather see us continue to invest in our lottery pick than say giving starting minutes to Clarkson. Delly is better at running offense, but he hasn't been able to shoot since hurting his thumb.

idk at some point the consistent shooting woes are going to get to him mentally. I get your point and agree to some degree as this is a rebuild and he needs reps, I just think they would be better off playing Knight as the starting pg for awhile to do two things: 1 boost Knights stock, and 2 allow Garland to run the 2nd unit against other 2nd units to get his chops in until the shots start falling.
Right now he is a boy among men and it really is only helping him to recognize what defenders do and don't do that he will face in the future provided he produced enough to actually earn the starting gig. I think those experiences as good as they are he is not ready for yet.
Lets say they leave him in the sl and he continues to avg sub 40% shooting , all season. Are the Cavs looking for another pg in 2020?

put him on the bench rotation at least till he gets the system down

He's been primarily taking tough shots off his own dribble - I believe these are actually shots he can make, but he may just need more volume to find and lock-in the range. I think JB's goal, otoh, is to increase our passing and let the offense create more open looks for him.

So, that's what they're working towards doing rather than letting the offense become dependent on hero ball from him or Collin.

fwiw, I don't think he's being harmed - and learning to play with a consistent group should be helpful - and I have zero interest in showcasing other players. Implementing new systems takes time. The key is that they stick with it and continue to learn from the L's.

they have to bring him off the bench to help his development not to hurt it or prolong it. the pressure will be less and the competition at least will sometimes be other young players trying to earn minutes that are the future of the league that he will face for a decadenot a couple seasons. He isn't getting any good experiences playing in the sl right now other than **** up the program for everyone else on the starting unit. He has consistently been the weakest link and it absolutley should be a priority to get assets for expirings at the dl

[JonFromVA]

idk at some point the consistent shooting woes are going to get to him mentally. I get your point and agree to some degree as this is a rebuild and he needs reps, I just think they would be better off playing Knight as the starting pg for awhile to do two things: 1 boost Knights stock, and 2 allow Garland to run the 2nd unit against other 2nd units to get his chops in until the shots start falling.
Right now he is a boy among men and it really is only helping him to recognize what defenders do and don't do that he will face in the future provided he produced enough to actually earn the starting gig. I think those experiences as good as they are he is not ready for yet.
Lets say they leave him in the sl and he continues to avg sub 40% shooting , all season. Are the Cavs looking for another pg in 2020?

put him on the bench rotation at least till he gets the system down

He's been primarily taking tough shots off his own dribble - I believe these are actually shots he can make, but he may just need more volume to find and lock-in the range. I think JB's goal, otoh, is to increase our passing and let the offense create more open looks for him.

So, that's what they're working towards doing rather than letting the offense become dependent on hero ball from him or Collin.

fwiw, I don't think he's being harmed - and learning to play with a consistent group should be helpful - and I have zero interest in showcasing other players. Implementing new systems takes time. The key is that they stick with it and continue to learn from the L's.

they have to bring him off the bench to help his development not to hurt it or prolong it. the pressure will be less and the competition at least will sometimes be other young players trying to earn minutes that are the future of the league that he will face for a decadenot a couple seasons. He isn't getting any good experiences playing in the sl right now other than **** up the program for everyone else on the starting unit. He has consistently been the weakest link and it absolutley should be a priority to get assets for expirings at the dl

If I was seeing that "deer in the headlights" look in his eyes, or if I thought he was risking getting hurt, or I thought he wasn't listening to coaching - I'd agree with you - but I don't see that - so I really don't see a problem.

If he's going to play PG in the league he's going to have to try to defend a lot of very talented players and he might as well start learning now.

Either way, I want us to play to our talent level.

If were losing games because Garland is getting so much run - that's fine - we'll get that lottery pick. If we're winning games because he's turned a corner ... that's fine too.

[Stillwater]

He's been primarily taking tough shots off his own dribble - I believe these are actually shots he can make, but he may just need more volume to find and lock-in the range. I think JB's goal, otoh, is to increase our passing and let the offense create more open looks for him.

So, that's what they're working towards doing rather than letting the offense become dependent on hero ball from him or Collin.

fwiw, I don't think he's being harmed - and learning to play with a consistent group should be helpful - and I have zero interest in showcasing other players. Implementing new systems takes time. The key is that they stick with it and continue to learn from the L's.

they have to bring him off the bench to help his development not to hurt it or prolong it. the pressure will be less and the competition at least will sometimes be other young players trying to earn minutes that are the future of the league that he will face for a decadenot a couple seasons. He isn't getting any good experiences playing in the sl right now other than **** up the program for everyone else on the starting unit. He has consistently been the weakest link and it absolutley should be a priority to get assets for expirings at the dl

If I was seeing that "deer in the headlights" look in his eyes, or if I thought he was risking getting hurt, or I thought he wasn't listening to coaching - I'd agree with you - but I don't see that - so I really don't see a problem.

If he's going to play PG in the league he's going to have to try to defend a lot of very talented players and he might as well start learning now.

Either way, I want us to play to our talent level.

If were losing games because Garland is getting so much run - that's fine - we'll get that lottery pick. If we're winning games because he's turned a corner ... that's fine too.

already getting some "over rated" hecklers at MSG . its too bad . I really hope he has the same hunger as Sexton , then maybe all this is just expected by him. I think however now that KPJ just got a start in which he looked 5th pick worthy, most of the fanbase in cle is going to bail on Garland making it even tougher. He does have that deer in headlight look sometimes but you are right its not common. to me right now its usully just his shot aint falling and hes clearly not nba game shape level.

[JonFromVA]

they have to bring him off the bench to help his development not to hurt it or prolong it. the pressure will be less and the competition at least will sometimes be other young players trying to earn minutes that are the future of the league that he will face for a decadenot a couple seasons. He isn't getting any good experiences playing in the sl right now other than **** up the program for everyone else on the starting unit. He has consistently been the weakest link and it absolutley should be a priority to get assets for expirings at the dl

If I was seeing that "deer in the headlights" look in his eyes, or if I thought he was risking getting hurt, or I thought he wasn't listening to coaching - I'd agree with you - but I don't see that - so I really don't see a problem.

If he's going to play PG in the league he's going to have to try to defend a lot of very talented players and he might as well start learning now.

Either way, I want us to play to our talent level.

If were losing games because Garland is getting so much run - that's fine - we'll get that lottery pick. If we're winning games because he's turned a corner ... that's fine too.

already getting some "over rated" hecklers at MSG . its too bad . I really hope he has the same hunger as Sexton , then maybe all this is just expected by him. I think however now that KPJ just got a start in which he looked 5th pick worthy, most of the fanbase in cle is going to bail on Garland making it even tougher. He does have that deer in headlight look sometimes but you are right its not common. to me right now its usully just his shot aint falling and hes clearly not nba game shape level.

Brevin Knight may be "shooting" for Garland's minutes, but I get the impression creating 3pters for himself is not what Beilein wants from his PG and his adjustment to those expectations is likely part of Darius's struggles. I suspect if Darius was encouraged to dance and fire up shots, he'd have an easier time locking in the range (at the expense of ball hogging, teammates grousing, and some ugly shooting lines).

fwiw, I think "already getting some "over rated" hecklers at MSG " is just a case of Schadenfreude by Knicks fans feeling a little better after we blew them out the other night and many of them had been sweating they'd made a mistake passing on Garland in favor of RJ.

[Stillwater]

Garland was over picked imo at this point as hes not at a level of play that justifies using him in the starting 5 because doing so shunts the development of the rest of the roster in a new system.Now i do agree our other options dont care or want to learn with no long term interest in learning Beileins schemes beyond their own contract next summer, but that reenforces the trouble with drafting Garland as high as they did given his clear problems transitioning into the NBA . Again i dont expect instant success but i do expect him to be at minimum a solid shooter since that was a key part of his draft stock

[JonFromVA]

Garland was over picked imo at this point as hes not at a level of play that justifies using him in the starting 5 because doing so shunts the development of the rest of the roster in a new system.Now i do agree our other options dont care or want to learn with no long term interest in learning Beileins schemes beyond their own contract next summer, but that reenforces the trouble with drafting Garland as high as they did given his clear problems transitioning into the NBA . Again i dont expect instant success but i do expect him to be at minimum a solid shooter since that was a key part of his draft stock

We're just going through a lot of growing pains all around and if we want to keep our sanity we'll try to be patient about it and let things work out. I'm certainly not going to fly off the handle if JB decides to bring Darius off the bench in order to try some other lineup. Now if he gets buried on the bench like has happened to Zizic at times, that's something else. lol

I look at it this way with pretty much every new situation ... if you were asked to come in and turn around a crappy team like the Cavs what would you ask from management in terms of patience before expecting significant improvement? From what I've seen in the past, I'd ask for at least 2 years to try to implement new system and to adapt the roster somewhat to the needs of that system.

If I was brought in as the GM and asked when I should you be held accountable for my drafting of 19 year old kids ... I'd say look for a certain level of progress by year 3, but you may not truly know what you have until year 5, and you may not start to realize that potential until year 7. Sure, some players will develop sooner than that, but not all of them, and in all cases it takes time to learn how to win.

If the owner has the patience for that? Great. Stay the course, otherwise you might as well try to develop potential and trade it as soon as you can for players in their prime ready to contribute to winning.

[Stillwater]

Garland was over picked imo at this point as hes not at a level of play that justifies using him in the starting 5 because doing so shunts the development of the rest of the roster in a new system.Now i do agree our other options dont care or want to learn with no long term interest in learning Beileins schemes beyond their own contract next summer, but that reenforces the trouble with drafting Garland as high as they did given his clear problems transitioning into the NBA . Again i dont expect instant success but i do expect him to be at minimum a solid shooter since that was a key part of his draft stock

We're just going through a lot of growing pains all around and if we want to keep our sanity we'll try to be patient about it and let things work out. I'm certainly not going to fly off the handle if JB decides to bring Darius off the bench in order to try some other lineup. Now if he gets buried on the bench like has happened to Zizic at times, that's something else. lol

I look at it this way with pretty much every new situation ... if you were asked to come in and turn around a crappy team like the Cavs what would you ask from management in terms of patience before expecting significant improvement? From what I've seen in the past, I'd ask for at least 2 years to try to implement new system and to adapt the roster somewhat to the needs of that system.

If I was brought in as the GM and asked when I should you be held accountable for my drafting of 19 year old kids ... I'd say look for a certain level of progress by year 3, but you may not truly know what you have until year 5, and you may not start to realize that potential until year 7. Sure, some players will develop sooner than that, but not all of them, and in all cases it takes time to learn how to win.

If the owner has the patience for that? Great. Stay the course, otherwise you might as well try to develop potential and trade it as soon as you can for players in their prime ready to contribute to winning.

Very well put...kudos for that . However my opinion differs slightly when it pertains to high lottery picks as opposed to later picked prospects.
Garland by all accounts is a highly skilled kid for his age who is struggling to find his shot coming off injury and I don't think the Cavs are worried about it long term because they have seen what he could do in the past. However, they definitely thought they were drafting a high % 3 point shooter that had elite handles and excellent court vision...not one that had sub-standard shooting ability and over rated court vision despite above average passing chops.
I just think he was over valued by a little bit due to miscalculation of what he brings to the table in the short term as it pertains to the entire starting unit developing together, I mean right now he is pretty damn miserable out there.
Long term he may figure it out find his shot sooner than later etc. no need to get overly concerned this soon, but overall could have drafted a higher floor forward with similar ceiling in Culver or even pulled the trigger on the elite upside of Sekou at 5 despite having just as low if not lower of a floor.
The worst part is next years draft has mostly guards at the top

[JonFromVA]

Garland was over picked imo at this point as hes not at a level of play that justifies using him in the starting 5 because doing so shunts the development of the rest of the roster in a new system.Now i do agree our other options dont care or want to learn with no long term interest in learning Beileins schemes beyond their own contract next summer, but that reenforces the trouble with drafting Garland as high as they did given his clear problems transitioning into the NBA . Again i dont expect instant success but i do expect him to be at minimum a solid shooter since that was a key part of his draft stock

We're just going through a lot of growing pains all around and if we want to keep our sanity we'll try to be patient about it and let things work out. I'm certainly not going to fly off the handle if JB decides to bring Darius off the bench in order to try some other lineup. Now if he gets buried on the bench like has happened to Zizic at times, that's something else. lol

I look at it this way with pretty much every new situation ... if you were asked to come in and turn around a crappy team like the Cavs what would you ask from management in terms of patience before expecting significant improvement? From what I've seen in the past, I'd ask for at least 2 years to try to implement new system and to adapt the roster somewhat to the needs of that system.

If I was brought in as the GM and asked when I should you be held accountable for my drafting of 19 year old kids ... I'd say look for a certain level of progress by year 3, but you may not truly know what you have until year 5, and you may not start to realize that potential until year 7. Sure, some players will develop sooner than that, but not all of them, and in all cases it takes time to learn how to win.

If the owner has the patience for that? Great. Stay the course, otherwise you might as well try to develop potential and trade it as soon as you can for players in their prime ready to contribute to winning.

Very well put...kudos for that . However my opinion differs slightly when it pertains to high lottery picks as opposed to later picked prospects.
Garland by all accounts is a highly skilled kid for his age who is struggling to find his shot coming off injury and I don't think the Cavs are worried about it long term because they have seen what he could do in the past. However, they definitely thought they were drafting a high % 3 point shooter that had elite handles and excellent court vision...not one that had sub-standard shooting ability and over rated court vision despite above average passing chops.
I just think he was over valued by a little bit due to miscalculation of what he brings to the table in the short term as it pertains to the entire starting unit developing together, I mean right now he is pretty damn miserable out there.
Long term he may figure it out find his shot sooner than later etc. no need to get overly concerned this soon, but overall could have drafted a higher floor forward with similar ceiling in Culver or even pulled the trigger on the elite upside of Sekou at 5 despite having just as low if not lower of a floor.
The worst part is next years draft has mostly guards at the top

I just don't think Garland's performance so far is out of whack with the fact he's 19 and has only played 5 games in the past year, is working his way back in to shape and trying to learn to run a new system. IMO, the *signs* are all there to backup what the Cavs saw in him.

If Sam Hinkie was running the show he probably would have sent him home for a year or two.

Seriously, give him 20 games in to the season, and then start looking at where he's at. Let him at least play his way in to game shape and get some games under his belt before even starting to evaluate him like a one and done.

It sure would be nice if Koby and gang know what they're doing in the draft, but our picks the last two years are clearly Dan Gilbert-style if not outright dictated selections. He'd rather be wrong on a high-upside player than settle for just a solid prospect. It's a gamble. One that paid off in the case of Kyrie, seems to be paying off in the case of Collin, might finally be paying off in the case of Wiggins; but not so much in the case of Dion or Bennett.