RealGM

Henson supposedly back in uniform tonight. Hoping he can be that rim protector we need and worth retaining next summer.
The rumors about TT getting resigned in CLE seem like trade interest news.

really looking forward to seeing some of Sekou but not very confident I will much this season, Detroit seems to be mostly content with leaving players rotting on the bench or down in the g league instead of getting real game reps.
Sekou is the youngest player that was drafted so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but he was playing professionally this time last season and is a far cry from unplayable rookie just because hes younger.

Windler practiced with team this weekend and should be returning to full basketball soon. prob start in Canton so I am guessing it will be another couple weeks before we see him in a Cavs jersey. he is very vocal and a natural leader which should prove useful for the other young players going forward. we could definitely use some leadership

I might send Garland to the G League and Sexton to the bench. Things are coming to a head with Love getting so few shots and I'm not all good with taking a bath on a trade so those two can figure it out while starting for an NBA team.

There's some serious regression going on with our back court and a big part of developing players is addressing it early.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Detroits front court owned tt and love all game offensively.
beilein was clearly wanting better effort defensively than what our front court could givre him.
Sexton was fine defensively and the team on the floor after his steal and dunk was somewhat energized but it fizzled quickly.
Garland appears he is going to struggle for a long time against good defensive teams unfortunately
but despite needing to be demoted to bench minutes now, they dont seem interested in it so he must have the keys to the warehouse

Stillwater wrote:Detroits front court owned tt and love all game offensively.
beilein was clearly wanting better effort defensively than what our front court could givre him.
Sexton was fine defensively and the team on the floor after his steal and dunk was somewhat energized but it fizzled quickly.
Garland appears he is going to struggle for a long time against good defensive teams unfortunately
but despite needing to be demoted to bench minutes now, they dont seem interested in it so he must have the keys to the warehouse

Sexton was not fine. Kevin Love had 7 fga, again. Sexton had 16 and most of them were drives to the hoop where everyone in the building knew he wasn't passing (unless it was a dump off to TT). He's not playing within the offense anymore.

He's not shooting from outside enough. Garland isn't either. They had two three point attempts each for the entire game. Our spacing has been garbage for a while now as a result. Undersized guards can't start in this league if they can't shoot from outside.

Tonight, they were trying to take advantage of Blake staying with Love at three point line and driving every time, except Drummond was waiting for them. They're still not passing the ball back to Love off of those high screens until his defender has fully recovered.

We took the shots the Pistons wanted us to take and iced out our best player, again. We're about two weeks away from Love asking for a trade if this keeps up. He's already over it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:Detroits front court owned tt and love all game offensively.
beilein was clearly wanting better effort defensively than what our front court could givre him.
Sexton was fine defensively and the team on the floor after his steal and dunk was somewhat energized but it fizzled quickly.
Garland appears he is going to struggle for a long time against good defensive teams unfortunately
but despite needing to be demoted to bench minutes now, they dont seem interested in it so he must have the keys to the warehouse

Sexton was not fine. Kevin Love had 7 fga, again. Sexton had 16 and most of them were drives to the hoop where everyone in the building knew he wasn't passing (unless it was a dump off to TT). He's not playing within the offense anymore.

He's not shooting from outside enough. Garland isn't either. They had two three point attempts each for the entire game. Our spacing has been garbage for a while now as a result. Undersized guards can't start in this league if they can't shoot from outside.

Tonight, they were trying to take advantage of Blake staying with Love at three point line and driving every time, except Drummond was waiting for them. They're still not passing the ball back to Love off of those high screens until his defender has fully recovered.

We took the shots the Pistons wanted us to take and iced out our best player, again. We're about two weeks away from Love asking for a trade if this keeps up. He's already over it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

i mean yeah it would be nice if there was any execution by Love when he did get the ball it was minimal. he slso did little to stop griffin. personally would have gave him the night off after the first 1/4 .i hear your point but imo nobody on this coaching staff is trying to run plays for Love every game and esp not in this match up anyway.
problems i saw were nobody on this roster including Sexton is shooting well or passing well or defending well enough to win games...but imo Sexton driving to score is his main job to do right now so i dont see that going against expectations esp when his shot aint falling. if they want Garland to be the lead guard
i expect this to be a common outcome and that in itself could be wearing on the team . maybe this year the tank will pay off but im not sure you can trust the scouting dept too much at this juncture.
gonna be a long rebuild

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:Detroits front court owned tt and love all game offensively.
beilein was clearly wanting better effort defensively than what our front court could givre him.
Sexton was fine defensively and the team on the floor after his steal and dunk was somewhat energized but it fizzled quickly.
Garland appears he is going to struggle for a long time against good defensive teams unfortunately
but despite needing to be demoted to bench minutes now, they dont seem interested in it so he must have the keys to the warehouse

Sexton was not fine. Kevin Love had 7 fga, again. Sexton had 16 and most of them were drives to the hoop where everyone in the building knew he wasn't passing (unless it was a dump off to TT). He's not playing within the offense anymore.

He's not shooting from outside enough. Garland isn't either. They had two three point attempts each for the entire game. Our spacing has been garbage for a while now as a result. Undersized guards can't start in this league if they can't shoot from outside.

Tonight, they were trying to take advantage of Blake staying with Love at three point line and driving every time, except Drummond was waiting for them. They're still not passing the ball back to Love off of those high screens until his defender has fully recovered.

We took the shots the Pistons wanted us to take and iced out our best player, again. We're about two weeks away from Love asking for a trade if this keeps up. He's already over it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

i mean yeah it would be nice if there was any execution by Love when he did get the ball it was minimal. he slso did little to stop griffin. personally would have gave him the night off after the first 1/4 .i hear your point but imo nobody on this coaching staff is trying to run plays for Love every game and esp not in this match up anyway.
problems i saw were nobody on this roster including Sexton is shooting well or passing well or defending well enough to win games...but imo Sexton driving to score is his main job to do right now so i dont see that going against expectations esp when his shot aint falling. if they want Garland to be the lead guard
i expect this to be a common outcome and that in itself could be wearing on the team . maybe this year the tank will pay off but im not sure you can trust the scouting dept too much at this juncture.
gonna be a long rebuild

At least half of Griffin's made three pointers came on transition plays, or just regular plays where Love was helping on the guy driving and no one rotated. It would be one thing if Drummond and Griffin just bullied TT and Love, but that's not what happened. He did bully Henson who wanted nothing to do with him.

I couldn't disagree more on Sexton. If he can't help space the floor, then he's not going to start on a good team. He can't consistently score at the rim against good rim protectors. He had two turnovers to go with his 16 attempts. He also went to the line on three attempts. That's 21 attempts and he only managed 22 points. He shot twice as much as any other starter.

We've lost 10 of our last 11, which I could live with If the games weren't increasingly less competitive. We just came off of three days of rest. If Garland needs to go to G League to regain his confidence and his shot, so be it. If Sexton needs to come off the bench until he learns the importance of playing within the offense, I can live with that. But this team is regressing and bad habits are starting to form. As we saw with Kyrie and Dion, they're real hard to break once they're established.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We saw Garland have his best performance after one of his worst. We've seen the team dish 32 assists .vs. the Bucks and just 16 .vs. the Pistons.

Both are lengthy teams.

There's just going to be a lot of ups & downs and it's not like we have much in the way of better options unless we want Beilein to give up on implementing an offense and just give the ball to someone and let them do whatever they want.

Stay the course and enjoy the lottery balls if that's what we get. I'm not changing anything for the sake of "trade value". Beilein and Bickerstaff just have a lot of work ahead to shore up the offense and defense.

JonFromVA wrote:We saw Garland have his best performance after one of his worst. We've seen the team dish 32 assists .vs. the Bucks and just 16 .vs. the Pistons.

Both are lengthy teams.

There's just going to be a lot of ups & downs and it's not like we have much in the way of better options unless we want Beilein to give up on implementing an offense and just give the ball to someone and let them do whatever they want.

Stay the course and enjoy the lottery balls if that's what we get. I'm not changing anything for the sake of "trade value". Beilein and Bickerstaff just have a lot of work ahead to shore up the offense and defense.

What I'm seeing is our young guys abandoning the offense. If you don't nip that in the bud, the regression is only going to get worse. Plus, I really don't see how either Garland or Sexton are going to be net positive starters unless they're taking more threes. They both need to be a threat from deep or it's really hard to see how either one is any kind of building block.

Also, people should absolutely care that we don't crater Love's trade value because based on what I'm watching, we really need a good return if he asks out. Otherwise, this rebuild could go on for a half a decade.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:We saw Garland have his best performance after one of his worst. We've seen the team dish 32 assists .vs. the Bucks and just 16 .vs. the Pistons.

Both are lengthy teams.

There's just going to be a lot of ups & downs and it's not like we have much in the way of better options unless we want Beilein to give up on implementing an offense and just give the ball to someone and let them do whatever they want.

Stay the course and enjoy the lottery balls if that's what we get. I'm not changing anything for the sake of "trade value". Beilein and Bickerstaff just have a lot of work ahead to shore up the offense and defense.

What I'm seeing is our young guys abandoning the offense. If you don't nip that in the bud, the regression is only going to get worse. Plus, I really don't see how either Garland or Sexton are going to be net positive starters unless they're taking more threes. They both need to be a threat from deep or it's really hard to see how either one is any kind of building block.

Also, people should absolutely care that we don't crater Love's trade value because based on what I'm watching, we really need a good return if he asks out. Otherwise, this rebuild could go on for a half a decade.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The young guys embraced the offense just a game earlier ... but each game and opponent is different. Dealing with those differences takes a lot more experience. Beilein can't nip it in the bud ... he can only try to prepare them a little better for their next challenge. At some point we'll have more tricks in our toolbox than our opponents have answers.

Also ... you might as well resign yourself to a long rebuild now if you think it hinges on trading Love.. Teams know what Kevin is and isn't ... getting the kind of trade that would change the course of the franchise for him would require an idiot GM making a desperate move not anything specifically from Kevin beyond being mostly healthy.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:We saw Garland have his best performance after one of his worst. We've seen the team dish 32 assists .vs. the Bucks and just 16 .vs. the Pistons.

Both are lengthy teams.

There's just going to be a lot of ups & downs and it's not like we have much in the way of better options unless we want Beilein to give up on implementing an offense and just give the ball to someone and let them do whatever they want.

Stay the course and enjoy the lottery balls if that's what we get. I'm not changing anything for the sake of "trade value". Beilein and Bickerstaff just have a lot of work ahead to shore up the offense and defense.

What I'm seeing is our young guys abandoning the offense. If you don't nip that in the bud, the regression is only going to get worse. Plus, I really don't see how either Garland or Sexton are going to be net positive starters unless they're taking more threes. They both need to be a threat from deep or it's really hard to see how either one is any kind of building block.

Also, people should absolutely care that we don't crater Love's trade value because based on what I'm watching, we really need a good return if he asks out. Otherwise, this rebuild could go on for a half a decade.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The young guys embraced the offense just a game earlier ... but each game and opponent is different. Dealing with those differences takes a lot more experience. Beilein can't nip it in the bud ... he can only try to prepare them a little better for their next challenge. At some point we'll have more tricks in our toolbox than our opponents have answers.

Also ... you might as well resign yourself to a long rebuild now if you think it hinges on trading Love.. Teams know what Kevin is and isn't ... getting the kind of trade that would change the course of the franchise for him would require an idiot GM making a desperate move not anything specifically from Kevin beyond being mostly healthy.

There's a big difference between getting a first and a young guy versus getting expiring or even worse players on bad contracts back. There's a big difference between how a bubble team will look at him if he's putting up 18 and 10 versus his production when he gets less than 10 FGA per game. If he asks out because this team wouldn't correct young guys when they strayed off course, that's an organizational failure. It would be one thing if the team was playing better when Garland and Sexton abandoned the offense and started driving into the trees, but we're quite clearly playing worse.

Also, a general concept, big man can't pass the ball to themselves. Whether Love stays or goes, that's something young guards need drilled into them early (as it's apparently no longer happening in high school or college). If you don't have the conversation now, it will be even harder when we spend a top-10 pick a big guy and our back court has been playing a certain way for years.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:What I'm seeing is our young guys abandoning the offense. If you don't nip that in the bud, the regression is only going to get worse. Plus, I really don't see how either Garland or Sexton are going to be net positive starters unless they're taking more threes. They both need to be a threat from deep or it's really hard to see how either one is any kind of building block.

Also, people should absolutely care that we don't crater Love's trade value because based on what I'm watching, we really need a good return if he asks out. Otherwise, this rebuild could go on for a half a decade.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The young guys embraced the offense just a game earlier ... but each game and opponent is different. Dealing with those differences takes a lot more experience. Beilein can't nip it in the bud ... he can only try to prepare them a little better for their next challenge. At some point we'll have more tricks in our toolbox than our opponents have answers.

Also ... you might as well resign yourself to a long rebuild now if you think it hinges on trading Love.. Teams know what Kevin is and isn't ... getting the kind of trade that would change the course of the franchise for him would require an idiot GM making a desperate move not anything specifically from Kevin beyond being mostly healthy.

There's a big difference between getting a first and a young guy versus getting expiring or even worse players on bad contracts back. There's a big difference between how a bubble team will look at him if he's putting up 18 and 10 versus his production when he gets less than 10 FGA per game. If he asks out because this team wouldn't correct young guys when they strayed off course, that's an organizational failure. It would be one thing if the team was playing better when Garland and Sexton abandoned the offense and started driving into the trees, but we're quite clearly playing worse.

Also, a general concept, big man can't pass the ball to themselves. Whether Love stays or goes, that's something young guards need drilled into them early (as it's apparently no longer happening in high school or college). If you don't have the conversation now, it will be even harder when we spend a top-10 pick a big guy and our back court has been playing a certain way for years.

If Kevin didn't ask out last year when we were being incompetently coached and our rookie PG supposedly didn't even know how to play the game yet was never benched or sent to Canton in spite of hurting the team game in and game out ... what makes you think he's going to cause problems this year?

Now if an extra first round pick is the only thing holding back this re-build, rest assured. we have plenty of ammo besides Kevin to acquire one depending what another team needs. Heck, we got 2 of them this year in Windler and Porter Jr using the scraps from previous cap space trades.

Heck, I'd say moving Clarkson, Brandon Knight or John Henson for a first rounder is even more likely than finding a team that both needs Kevin, can deal with his limitations and constant health issues, can absorb his contract, and has assets to send us.

Which isn't to say it's impossible, but look at what we're up against. If Portland is our best perhaps only trade prospect how would you go about convincing them that Kevin Love was a better option for them than the move they did make (signing Melo to a non-guaranteed vet-min deal without having to give up anything)?

And even if Melo washes out and they get super desperate and decide they'll even trade one of their young prospect such as Simmons or Little along with filler like Whiteside or Bazemore, do we even have enough minutes to develop all of our prospects?

Seems like minutes are going to tighten up with just Windler hopefully becoming available. Short of a move like dumping Clarkson, Porter Jr may soon become the odd man out.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
The young guys embraced the offense just a game earlier ... but each game and opponent is different. Dealing with those differences takes a lot more experience. Beilein can't nip it in the bud ... he can only try to prepare them a little better for their next challenge. At some point we'll have more tricks in our toolbox than our opponents have answers.

Also ... you might as well resign yourself to a long rebuild now if you think it hinges on trading Love.. Teams know what Kevin is and isn't ... getting the kind of trade that would change the course of the franchise for him would require an idiot GM making a desperate move not anything specifically from Kevin beyond being mostly healthy.

There's a big difference between getting a first and a young guy versus getting expiring or even worse players on bad contracts back. There's a big difference between how a bubble team will look at him if he's putting up 18 and 10 versus his production when he gets less than 10 FGA per game. If he asks out because this team wouldn't correct young guys when they strayed off course, that's an organizational failure. It would be one thing if the team was playing better when Garland and Sexton abandoned the offense and started driving into the trees, but we're quite clearly playing worse.

Also, a general concept, big man can't pass the ball to themselves. Whether Love stays or goes, that's something young guards need drilled into them early (as it's apparently no longer happening in high school or college). If you don't have the conversation now, it will be even harder when we spend a top-10 pick a big guy and our back court has been playing a certain way for years.

If Kevin didn't ask out last year when we were being incompetently coached and our rookie PG supposedly didn't even know how to play the game yet was never benched or sent to Canton in spite of hurting the team game in and game out ... what makes you think he's going to cause problems this year?

Now if an extra first round pick is the only thing holding back this re-build, rest assured. we have plenty of ammo besides Kevin to acquire one depending what another team needs. Heck, we got 2 of them this year in Windler and Porter Jr using the scraps from previous cap space trades.

Heck, I'd say moving Clarkson, Brandon Knight or John Henson for a first rounder is even more likely than finding a team that both needs Kevin, can deal with his limitations and constant health issues, can absorb his contract, and has assets to send us.

Which isn't to say it's impossible, but look at what we're up against. If Portland is our best perhaps only trade prospect how would you go about convincing them that Kevin Love was a better option for them than the move they did make (signing Melo to a non-guaranteed vet-min deal without having to give up anything)?

And even if Melo washes out and they get super desperate and decide they'll even trade one of their young prospect such as Simmons or Little along with filler like Whiteside or Bazemore, do we even have enough minutes to develop all of our prospects?

Seems like minutes are going to tighten up with just Windler hopefully becoming available. Short of a move like dumping Clarkson, Porter Jr may soon become the odd man out.

I don't have an issue with keeping Love tbh. What I'm trying to avoid is a scenario where he asks out and we take a bath for no good reason. Before he even made his comments after the Pistons game, you could see him get frustrated on the court. Your best offensive weapon can not be getting less than 10 FGA per game, and with Kevin, it's important to try to get him going early.

Instead, our starting guards are using him as a decoy. When they pass the ball back at all, they're not passing the ball back quickly enough on the high screens. They wait until his defender has recovered. Once Garland and Sexton have dribbled into the trees, they can't get the ball to him. They either force a tough shot or dump it off to TT.

On defense, he's rotating to cover the paint both in the half court and on the break and no one is covering an unguarded Blake at the three point line. Blake went six for seven from 3 point range. That constituted 18 of his point. Love's frustrations aside, it's garbage basketball that should be seriously discouraged. If you don't insist on team ball now, you won't get it in the future. If they won't involve skilled big men in the offense now, good look convincing them to do so after you've used a top-10 pick on one.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
There's a big difference between getting a first and a young guy versus getting expiring or even worse players on bad contracts back. There's a big difference between how a bubble team will look at him if he's putting up 18 and 10 versus his production when he gets less than 10 FGA per game. If he asks out because this team wouldn't correct young guys when they strayed off course, that's an organizational failure. It would be one thing if the team was playing better when Garland and Sexton abandoned the offense and started driving into the trees, but we're quite clearly playing worse.

Also, a general concept, big man can't pass the ball to themselves. Whether Love stays or goes, that's something young guards need drilled into them early (as it's apparently no longer happening in high school or college). If you don't have the conversation now, it will be even harder when we spend a top-10 pick a big guy and our back court has been playing a certain way for years.

If Kevin didn't ask out last year when we were being incompetently coached and our rookie PG supposedly didn't even know how to play the game yet was never benched or sent to Canton in spite of hurting the team game in and game out ... what makes you think he's going to cause problems this year?

Now if an extra first round pick is the only thing holding back this re-build, rest assured. we have plenty of ammo besides Kevin to acquire one depending what another team needs. Heck, we got 2 of them this year in Windler and Porter Jr using the scraps from previous cap space trades.

Heck, I'd say moving Clarkson, Brandon Knight or John Henson for a first rounder is even more likely than finding a team that both needs Kevin, can deal with his limitations and constant health issues, can absorb his contract, and has assets to send us.

Which isn't to say it's impossible, but look at what we're up against. If Portland is our best perhaps only trade prospect how would you go about convincing them that Kevin Love was a better option for them than the move they did make (signing Melo to a non-guaranteed vet-min deal without having to give up anything)?

And even if Melo washes out and they get super desperate and decide they'll even trade one of their young prospect such as Simmons or Little along with filler like Whiteside or Bazemore, do we even have enough minutes to develop all of our prospects?

Seems like minutes are going to tighten up with just Windler hopefully becoming available. Short of a move like dumping Clarkson, Porter Jr may soon become the odd man out.

I don't have an issue with keeping Love tbh. What I'm trying to avoid is a scenario where he asks out and we take a bath for no good reason. Before he even made his comments after the Pistons game, you could see him get frustrated on the court. Your best offensive weapon can not be getting less than 10 FGA per game, and with Kevin, it's important to try to get him going early.

Instead, our starting guards are using him as a decoy. When they pass the ball back at all, they're not passing the ball back quickly enough on the high screens. They wait until his defender has recovered. Once Garland and Sexton have dribbled into the trees, they can't get the ball to him. They either force a tough shot or dump it off to TT.

On defense, he's rotating to cover the paint both in the half court and on the break and no one is covering an unguarded Blake at the three point line. Blake went six for seven from 3 point range. That constituted 18 of his point. Love's frustrations aside, it's garbage basketball that should be seriously discouraged. If you don't insist on team ball now, you won't get it in the future. If they won't involve skilled big men in the offense now, good look convincing them to do so after you've used a top-10 pick on one.

I just don't believe there's anything to worry about - at least at this point. Kevin understands this is a process for the team and even he's being asked to learn new stuff do new things. He's a pro who's not going to make a stink and even if he asks (or has asked) the Cavs to trade him - I don't think the Cavs will dump him - and I believe Kevin will understand if they don't. Same with Tristan for that matter - except obviously he can do what he wants when the season is up.

Kevin only taking 11.4 shots per game is problematic, but it's also emblematic to some extent of an offense that tries to spread the shots around. If we're looking for an anomaly, it'd be Sexton who's taking taking significantly more shots per game than the other guys, but has a TS% of just 52.1%. Otoh, we're trying to develop him as a scorer. Similarly with Clarkson - he's being told to play like a "wolf" and to hunt his shots.

Anyway, take a closer look at Milwaukee box-score when we actually generated the sort of assist numbers we hope this offense will one day generate with consistency. The assists were pretty well spread around: Kevin led the team with 7, Darius, Collin, Clarkson, and Osman all had 4 to 6. Turnovers were in check. We had 7 players with between 8 and 15 shots and our young players (Sexton, Garland, and Osman) taking the most.

It's going to be a share the wealth (or share the suck) style of offense.

On a related/side-note, here's an interesting article on what the different play-types that Synergy/nba.com logs:

https://fansided.com/2017/09/08/nylon-calculus-understanding-synergy-play-type-data/

According to the author's numbers, the most effective type of play (on average) across the NBA are "cuts" at 1.246 PPP, followed by transition at 1.103, put backs at 1.084, and then pick-and-roll roll man at 1.037.

If Beilein is focused less on the sort of bread & butter plays that everyone knows how to run like P&R and ISO because he wants to emphasize the more efficient plays that only happen through proper offensive and defensive execution like cuts & transition ... well, he's taking the right approach.

JB mentioned after practice today that Detroit was switching on all the screens involving Kevin even after multiple staggered screens. Something they hadn't seen much of this season and just something else they need to work on. Basically the defense was a step ahead of our offense ... but if we can make the adjustment ... we will see things improve.