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this team is so jeckle and hyde . last night played solid basketball in a tight loss holding orl way under their normal offense then tonight give up 65% from the floor in this one shooting under 36% themselves. Love aint helping his trade stock playing sick on a nat tv game.
**** this

Stillwater wrote:this team is so jeckle and hyde . last night played solid basketball in a tight loss holding orl way under their normal offense then tonight give up 65% from the floor in this one shooting under 36% themselves. Love aint helping his trade stock playing sick on a nat tv game.
**** this

Seemed like the rest of the team was freezing him out to me. I don't know if it's because of the trade request, or if they think he's behind the Vardon article. But everyone needs to be professional until he's traded.

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jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:this team is so jeckle and hyde . last night played solid basketball in a tight loss holding orl way under their normal offense then tonight give up 65% from the floor in this one shooting under 36% themselves. Love aint helping his trade stock playing sick on a nat tv game.
**** this

Seemed like the rest of the team was freezing him out to me. I don't know if it's because of the trade request, or if they think he's behind the Vardon article. But everyone needs to be professional until he's traded.

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maybe im just ignorant but i dont see anything indicating he requested a trade at all. i do think some of his frustrations to the media were interpreted that way and that it very well could be he is the one not interested in Beileins coaching approach esp given his success in this league and Beilein being new to it.
nobody was playing well on either side of the ball and they did get him the ball early and he was shooting like somebody who was sick but had to play in a nat tv game.
i wasnt watching after the poor start so i guess i missed what youre referring to but i will say i did notice he reached towards tt out of habit with tt at the charity stripe and tt body language did seem less than cool

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:this team is so jeckle and hyde . last night played solid basketball in a tight loss holding orl way under their normal offense then tonight give up 65% from the floor in this one shooting under 36% themselves. Love aint helping his trade stock playing sick on a nat tv game.
**** this

Seemed like the rest of the team was freezing him out to me. I don't know if it's because of the trade request, or if they think he's behind the Vardon article. But everyone needs to be professional until he's traded.

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maybe im just ignorant but i dont see anything indicating he requested a trade at all. i do think some of his frustrations to the media were interpreted that way and that it very well could be he is the one not interested in Beileins coaching approach esp given his success in this league and Beilein being new to it.
nobody was playing well on either side of the ball and they did get him the ball early and he was shooting like somebody who was sick but had to play in a nat tv game.
i wasnt watching after the poor start so i guess i missed what youre referring to but i will say i did notice he reached towards tt out of habit with tt at the charity stripe and tt body language did seem less than cool

Woj is basically the agents' go-to reporter. Correctly or not, when he reports the Cavs are taking calls on Love, people are going to read that as Love asking for a trade and the Cavs telling his agent to go bring them so good offers.

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Lol. How did we let a scrub like Burke go 9 for 12.

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Another thing, now that we're officially taking calls on Love, they need to stop resting him against the bad teams and playing him against the really good ones on back to back games. They should be doing the opposite. The tank can handle a couple Ws.

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We've always been taking calls on Love ... if anything has changed it would be whether were willing to take the best offer.

given love took media questions after the blowout loss with intelligent but responsive and not disgruntled to the point answers but instead casual but mostly disappointed ones as typical folowing an embarrassing loss such as saying we needed to move the ball more but it didnt happen we can talk and talk and the coach can talk but until we do it you have this result.
he looked actually sick so this coincidence theory about in house leaks him out against orlando etc disgruntled team Beilein followed by rumors cle is now fielding offer for Love etc has really started to seem to me like the cavs front office themselves told Love he was on the block as opposed to him asking out but it was precipitated by Loves frustrations not with Beilein but the lack of cohesion with the team not executing or buying in enough and how some of them are disgruntled with Beileins methods.Altmsn and co. were pushing the rumor deciding to move on from him despite his claims of and willingness to be a mentor and a good soldier.
i feel like love might also have lost the young players esp if they wont listen to him or coach b at which point he did ask for some changes

Stillwater wrote:given love took media questions after the blowout loss with intelligent but responsive and not disgruntled to the point answers but instead casual but mostly disappointed ones as typical folowing an embarrassing loss such as saying we needed to move the ball more but it didnt happen we can talk and talk and the coach can talk but until we do it you have this result.
he looked actually sick so this coincidence theory about in house leaks him out against orlando etc disgruntled team Beilein followed by rumors cle is now fielding offer for Love etc has really started to seem to me like the cavs front office themselves told Love he was on the block as opposed to him asking out but it was precipitated by Loves frustrations not with Beilein but the lack of cohesion with the team not executing or buying in enough and how some of them are disgruntled with Beileins methods.Altmsn and co. were pushing the rumor deciding to move on from him despite his claims of and willingness to be a mentor and a good soldier.
i feel like love might also have lost the young players esp if they wont listen to him or coach b at which point he did ask for some changes

It's the second time he's talked, publicly, about the ball not moving, or guys shooting after a single pass, in a week. It's going to suck when he gets traded to the Suns, is paired with Rubio, and looks like a completely different player.

It was already bad before, but I saw guys deliberately refusing to pass it to him last night. That should be unacceptable. Even if players want him gone, they're not helping matters by cratering his trade value. Love needs touches to be an overall positive impact on the floor.

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jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:given love took media questions after the blowout loss with intelligent but responsive and not disgruntled to the point answers but instead casual but mostly disappointed ones as typical folowing an embarrassing loss such as saying we needed to move the ball more but it didnt happen we can talk and talk and the coach can talk but until we do it you have this result.
he looked actually sick so this coincidence theory about in house leaks him out against orlando etc disgruntled team Beilein followed by rumors cle is now fielding offer for Love etc has really started to seem to me like the cavs front office themselves told Love he was on the block as opposed to him asking out but it was precipitated by Loves frustrations not with Beilein but the lack of cohesion with the team not executing or buying in enough and how some of them are disgruntled with Beileins methods.Altmsn and co. were pushing the rumor deciding to move on from him despite his claims of and willingness to be a mentor and a good soldier.
i feel like love might also have lost the young players esp if they wont listen to him or coach b at which point he did ask for some changes

It's the second time he's talked about ball not moving, or guys shooting after a single pass, in a week. It's going to suck when he gets traded to the Suns, is paired with Rubio, and looks like a completely different player.

It was already bad before, but I saw guys deliberately refusing to pass it to him last night. That should be unacceptable. Even if players want him gone, they're not helping matters by cratering his trade value. Love needs touches to be an overall positive impact on the floor.

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yeah if he has lost the team its no wonder hes being shopped more heavily , what frustrating to me in that regard is the answer to this question is unknown: was Love calling out his teamates in an attempt to get traded or in an attempt to mentor them and or motivate.

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:given love took media questions after the blowout loss with intelligent but responsive and not disgruntled to the point answers but instead casual but mostly disappointed ones as typical folowing an embarrassing loss such as saying we needed to move the ball more but it didnt happen we can talk and talk and the coach can talk but until we do it you have this result.
he looked actually sick so this coincidence theory about in house leaks him out against orlando etc disgruntled team Beilein followed by rumors cle is now fielding offer for Love etc has really started to seem to me like the cavs front office themselves told Love he was on the block as opposed to him asking out but it was precipitated by Loves frustrations not with Beilein but the lack of cohesion with the team not executing or buying in enough and how some of them are disgruntled with Beileins methods.Altmsn and co. were pushing the rumor deciding to move on from him despite his claims of and willingness to be a mentor and a good soldier.
i feel like love might also have lost the young players esp if they wont listen to him or coach b at which point he did ask for some changes

It's the second time he's talked about ball not moving, or guys shooting after a single pass, in a week. It's going to suck when he gets traded to the Suns, is paired with Rubio, and looks like a completely different player.

It was already bad before, but I saw guys deliberately refusing to pass it to him last night. That should be unacceptable. Even if players want him gone, they're not helping matters by cratering his trade value. Love needs touches to be an overall positive impact on the floor.

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yeah if he has lost the team its no wonder hes being shopped more heavily , what frustrating to me in that regard is the answer to this question is unknown: was Love calling out his teamates in an attempt to get traded or in an attempt to mentor them and or motivate.

I mean he's calling out his teammates because they need to be called out. Again, none of the young guys are talented enough to do whatever they want. It was bad enough when Kyrie did whatever he wanted. It's absurd that Garland and Sexton are doing it. They're just not that good.

I mean after Love is traded are we just going to roll with defensive rebounders at the 3, 4, & 5 positions? I'll tell you right now that team will suck hard.

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jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:It's the second time he's talked about ball not moving, or guys shooting after a single pass, in a week. It's going to suck when he gets traded to the Suns, is paired with Rubio, and looks like a completely different player.

It was already bad before, but I saw guys deliberately refusing to pass it to him last night. That should be unacceptable. Even if players want him gone, they're not helping matters by cratering his trade value. Love needs touches to be an overall positive impact on the floor.

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yeah if he has lost the team its no wonder hes being shopped more heavily , what frustrating to me in that regard is the answer to this question is unknown: was Love calling out his teamates in an attempt to get traded or in an attempt to mentor them and or motivate.

I mean he's calling out his teammates because they need to be called out. Again, none of the young guys are talented enough to do whatever they want. It was bad enough when Kyrie did whatever he wanted. It's absurd that Garland and Sexton are doing it. They're just not that good.

I mean after Love is traded are we just going to roll with defensive rebounders at the 3, 4, & 5 positions? I'll tell you right now that team will suck hard.

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im sure that will retain the pick though. my hope is they dont have to tank again next season. i mean really at this point even if love plays so long as the majority of games dont include good passing they wont win much anyway.
at least if they move him now it wont become a reflection on him.
idk...

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:yeah if he has lost the team its no wonder hes being shopped more heavily , what frustrating to me in that regard is the answer to this question is unknown: was Love calling out his teamates in an attempt to get traded or in an attempt to mentor them and or motivate.

I mean he's calling out his teammates because they need to be called out. Again, none of the young guys are talented enough to do whatever they want. It was bad enough when Kyrie did whatever he wanted. It's absurd that Garland and Sexton are doing it. They're just not that good.

I mean after Love is traded are we just going to roll with defensive rebounders at the 3, 4, & 5 positions? I'll tell you right now that team will suck hard.

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im sure that will retain the pick though. my hope is they dont have to tank again next season. i mean really at this point even if love plays so long as the majority of games dont include good passing they wont win much anyway.
at least if they move him now it wont become a reflection on him.
idk...

I mean even beyond this year. Are we not going to draft big men who are good offensively because they won't get enough touches in Cleveland? This all just seems crazy to me. If you're not going to teach these guys to play the right way now, does the front office think it will be easier to break bad habits after they've become more engrained? What's the long-term plan or vision here?

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jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:I mean he's calling out his teammates because they need to be called out. Again, none of the young guys are talented enough to do whatever they want. It was bad enough when Kyrie did whatever he wanted. It's absurd that Garland and Sexton are doing it. They're just not that good.

I mean after Love is traded are we just going to roll with defensive rebounders at the 3, 4, & 5 positions? I'll tell you right now that team will suck hard.

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im sure that will retain the pick though. my hope is they dont have to tank again next season. i mean really at this point even if love plays so long as the majority of games dont include good passing they wont win much anyway.
at least if they move him now it wont become a reflection on him.
idk...

I mean even beyond this year. Are we not going to draft big men who are good offensively because they won't get enough touches in Cleveland? This all just seems crazy to me. If you're not going to teach these guys to play the right way now, does the front office think it will be easier to break bad habits after they've become more engrained? What's the long-term plan or vision here?

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what my take at this point after further judgement
of the orlando game in which Love did not play is the team is buying into Beileins system and Love isnt. so whether the org has decided to shop him because of his stance or love himself is pushing for it really wont matter.
if the young players are ignoring Love on the court he has to have done or said something to cause it as opposed to them not having a clue.

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:im sure that will retain the pick though. my hope is they dont have to tank again next season. i mean really at this point even if love plays so long as the majority of games dont include good passing they wont win much anyway.
at least if they move him now it wont become a reflection on him.
idk...

I mean even beyond this year. Are we not going to draft big men who are good offensively because they won't get enough touches in Cleveland? This all just seems crazy to me. If you're not going to teach these guys to play the right way now, does the front office think it will be easier to break bad habits after they've become more engrained? What's the long-term plan or vision here?

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what my take at this point after further judgement
of the orlando game in which Love did not play is the team is buying into Beileins system and Love isnt. so whether the org has decided to shop him because of his stance or love himself is pushing for it really wont matter.
if the young players are ignoring Love on the court he has to have done or said something to cause it as opposed to them not having a clue.

You're really working hard to arrive at any conclusion other than the obvious one. Sexton and Garland have, for the most part, abandoned the offense. All you have to do is watch the games.

You know what Beilein's offense is suppose to look like. A lot of side to side player movement. Multiple passes. Multiple guys touch the ball on every possession. That's not happening anymore.

The coaching staff isn't telling Garland and Sexton to abandon the offense and drive into the paint early in the shot clock. They're not telling them to use Love strictly as a decoy (something they'll no longer be able to do when he's gone). Fedor has been writing about this for more than a week now. The coaching staff and Love are saying the same thing. The young guys just aren't listening.

As far as the Orlando game, that's exactly what I mean by a team that's going to suck hard. Orlando is an 8th seed in the East and they were missing Vuc. They were very limited offensively. The Magic still won. The long-term ceiling of a team whose offense is premised on Sexton running a high PNR with TT or Nance, is a team that can't outscore that version of the Magic.

Any skilled big man we draft is going to want and/or need touches. Are we just going to avoid drafting one so we can build the homeless man's version of AI's Sixers? I mean this is nuts.

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Again they dished out 31 assists just last week. Beilein said before this Athletic debacle that teams were sticking to Kevin forcing our guards to try other things. We heard that 2 or more players were sick including Kevin.

We'll see how this sorts out but this is nothing we haven't seen before as a team struggles to learn a new system and adopt it. What works against some teams just isn't far enough along to work against others and/or after defensive adjustments.

JonFromVA wrote:Again they dished out 31 assists just last week. Beilein said before this Athletic debacle that teams were sticking to Kevin forcing our guards to try other things. We heard that 2 or more players were sick including Kevin.

We'll see how this sorts out but this is nothing we haven't seen before as a team struggles to learn a new system and adopt it. What works against some teams just isn't far enough along to work against others and/or after defensive adjustments.

I think the point about teams not leaving, or even doubling, Love is fair. But the reason it's important to continue to play within the offense when that happens is because other guys will be wide open if you make the right passes. Dribbling into a packed paint isn't the answer. Frankly, I'd be less concerned if they were shooting more from three point range instead. I just don't see an iteration of this backcourt that's *good* unless they're hitting two three point shots each per game.

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jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Again they dished out 31 assists just last week. Beilein said before this Athletic debacle that teams were sticking to Kevin forcing our guards to try other things. We heard that 2 or more players were sick including Kevin.

We'll see how this sorts out but this is nothing we haven't seen before as a team struggles to learn a new system and adopt it. What works against some teams just isn't far enough along to work against others and/or after defensive adjustments.

I think the point about teams not leaving, or even doubling, Love is fair. But the reason it's important to continue to play within the offense when that happens is because other guys will be wide open if you make the right passes. Dribbling into a packed paint isn't the answer. Frankly, I'd be less concerned if they were shooting more from three point range instead. I just don't see an iteration of this backcourt that's *good* unless they're hitting two three point shots each per game.

The players simply aren't far enough along in learning the offense (or defense) and executing the same thing over and over that the defense is prepared to thwart won't get anything done. Garland, Sexton, and Porter Jr are all at a point where anything they get a chance to try will help teach them what they can and can't get away with at the pro-level. So, it's not breaking off the offense that worries me ... it's whether they have the patience to keep practicing and learning so they can eventually get to to the next stage in their reads AND it becomes instinctual. Repeat. Rinse. Soak.

Frustration is natural and the coaching staff needs to try to manage that and teach patience. This isn't about beating Philly on the second night of a back to back with players sick. It's about beating a .500 team like Orlando at home. We've come up short of that twice, but we did improve - and incremental improvement is what a rebuild is all about.