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Sexton needs to learn that it's okay for his teammates to eat when they're already cooking. It's beyond frustrating.

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I'm open to explanations as to why Bickerstaff insists on keeping Love and Sexton in the same rotations, but all the ones I'm coming up with, save one, are bad.

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They really need to bring Sexton off the bench for awhile not because he isn't a pass first guard but because Garland is such a turnstyle on defense he needs McKinney or kpj or even Exum sharing the backcourt with him.
But they obviously are not trying to put together winning a rotation as much as letting the young core gets chops in but at this point the losing is lowering their motivation to deal with the bad rotation themselves.
It's either that or bring Garland off the bench with kpj when he returns and let Sexton keep being himself and trying to improve his game while the tank rolls on.
This roster has to get a boost from the draft for sure, not sure either of these guards is a long-term starter in a good team but both have 6th man upside at minimum and are not the type you should trade away unless the return is far more proven

There's no excuse for losing by 20 to the Knicks at home. I don't understand why Sexton is on the court every minute that Love plays or why Love, Sexton, and Garland still play so many minutes together. Garland and Sexton were a combined 10 for 40 and Love was third among starters in FGAs - again.

The thing that's frustrating is this was yet another game where Love started off hot and then didn't get another good look for like 8 minutes. Eventually, he starts forcing up bad shots out of frustration. Rinse and repeat.

I just don't understand how that keeps happening. We know the guy wants out. The deadline is a couple weeks away. We can't even let him eat for the next couple of weeks? Maybe he's not going anywhere this year due to his contract. But it really shouldn't seem like these young guards are holding him hostage and it does. He's growing visibly frustrated again and it's impossible to blame him.

Beyond Love, we made a young center who normally fouls out if he plays more than 25 minutes look like a DPOY. I'm just amazed at how dumb, even fundamentally unsound, this team is half way through the season. The NBA is difficult enough without bailing out the other team's defense by going right at its seven foot shot blocker in the lane.

We're into the easy part of our schedule and it's really not making a difference. We dropped 3 games in a row against 3 bad teams.

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jbk1234 wrote:There's no excuse for losing by 20 to the Knicks at home. I don't understand why Sexton is on the court every minute that Love plays or why Love, Sexton, and Garland still play so many minutes together. Garland and Sexton were a combined 10 for 40 and Love was third among starters in FGAs - again.

The thing that's frustrating is this was yet another game where Love started off hot and then didn't get another good look for like 8 minutes. Eventually, he starts forcing up bad shots out of frustration. Rinse and repeat.

I just don't understand how that keeps happening. We know the guy wants out. The deadline is a couple weeks away. We can't even let him eat for the next couple of weeks? Maybe he's not going anywhere this year due to his contract. But it really shouldn't seem like these young guards are holding him hostage and it does. He's growing visibly frustrated again and it's impossible to blame him.

Beyond Love, we made a young center who normally fouls out if he plays more than 25 minutes look like a DPOY. I'm just amazed at how dumb, even fundamentally unsound, this team is half way through the season. The NBA is difficult enough without bailing out the other team's defense by going right at its seven foot shot blocker in the lane.

We're into the easy part of our schedule and it's really not making a difference. We dropped 3 games in a row against 3 bad teams.

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that might have been the worst game Sexton & Garland played since early on. Everyone looked "spent" too me.
I understand what your point is about lineups negatively impacting Love's trade value, but I think it's apparent they are not getting enough interest from other teams to be concerned with it. I mean Knight is out again, Delly can't shoot at all etc.
There is no justification with no clearly better vets waiting to play or anything for taking both out of the starting line up ...it's just not there now even though your reasoning should be enough to take Sexton out for awhile , Garland is not doing enough to take Sexton out and leave him in either.
I think they are sol on trading Love until this summer and that's it barring some miracle that a interested gm is willing to look at the Cavs situation for what it is, and understand that Love's failings are directly related to the failings of a young backcourt so them not playing vets to try to improve his numbers could in fact be Altman banking on other gm's giving his numbers a pass given the situation and the Cavs front office as a whole including coaching staff does not feel his numbers would improve so much with Knight or whomever else theyd have running the sl instead of the young guards to not in fact make Loves value even worse than it is where interested gm's say his numbers are down even with competent vets running the show etc

Seems our young players usually play well on the second night of a back to back when their leg's should be tired, but for whatever reason this "trap game" is what caught up with them. Lots of shots clanking off the front rim indicating tired legs.

Typically in a game like this you want to see your shooters adapt and take shorter shots and work the paint ... but our idea of working the paint is missing shots and Tristan putting them back, so ...

As for Kevin, he's still just as capable of shooting us out of a game as in it and often both in the same game. He takes a lot of difficult shots. We're not leveraging his gravity to create floor spacing, and that's also partially why we're not creating easier shots for him and everyone else.

If we end up trading Kevin, Henson, and Tristan, it will at least be interesting to see what lineups Beilein dreams up. Most likely a disaster waiting to happen, but there's also a potential opportunity to form a lineup that may open up the offense or perhaps defend the paint.

JonFromVA wrote:Seems our young players usually play well on the second night of a back to back when their leg's should be tired, but for whatever reason this "trap game" is what caught up with them. Lots of shots clanking off the front rim indicating tired legs.

Typically in a game like this you want to see your shooters adapt and take shorter shots and work the paint ... but our idea of working the paint is missing shots and Tristan putting them back, so ...

As for Kevin, he's still just as capable of shooting us out of a game as in it and often both in the same game. He takes a lot of difficult shots. We're not leveraging his gravity to create floor spacing, and that's also partially why we're not creating easier shots for him and everyone else.

If we end up trading Kevin, Henson, and Tristan, it will at least be interesting to see what lineups Beilein dreams up. Most likely a disaster waiting to happen, but there's also a potential opportunity to form a lineup that may open up the offense or perhaps defend the paint.

I'm not sure there's another team in the league where a good player comes out hits two of three or three of four three pointers in the first four minutes and then doesn't get another shot until he's subbed back in in the second quarter. That's not how it's suppose to work. It would be one thing if opposing defenses took away Love and it opened up good looks for other players. But that's not what's happening. Love is getting going and his own teammates chill him out by jacking up bad shots. There are games, like yesterday, where they make Kyrie looks like a generous teammate.

When I talk about what happens the day after Love is traded, this is what I mean. What happens if the next guy the Cavs draft gets going and then gets iced out? Feeding the hot hand and forcing the defense to adjust, should be a very attainable goal. This is why I'm not as convinced things get fixed on its own once Love is traded. This is something that needs to be addressed and reinforced. Kyrie and Waiters are both worse NBA players today than they otherwise would've been if the Cavs didn't wait until Waiters third season, and Kyrie's fourth season, to address the issue.

Love taking bad shots usually results from him growing frustrated in not getting enough touches or not getting touches over too long a time.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Seems our young players usually play well on the second night of a back to back when their leg's should be tired, but for whatever reason this "trap game" is what caught up with them. Lots of shots clanking off the front rim indicating tired legs.

Typically in a game like this you want to see your shooters adapt and take shorter shots and work the paint ... but our idea of working the paint is missing shots and Tristan putting them back, so ...

As for Kevin, he's still just as capable of shooting us out of a game as in it and often both in the same game. He takes a lot of difficult shots. We're not leveraging his gravity to create floor spacing, and that's also partially why we're not creating easier shots for him and everyone else.

If we end up trading Kevin, Henson, and Tristan, it will at least be interesting to see what lineups Beilein dreams up. Most likely a disaster waiting to happen, but there's also a potential opportunity to form a lineup that may open up the offense or perhaps defend the paint.

I'm not sure there's another team in the league where a good player comes out hits two of three or three of four three pointers in the first four minutes and then doesn't get another shot until he's subbed back in in the second quarter. That's not how it's suppose to work. It would be one thing if opposing defenses took away Love and it opened up good looks for other players. But that's not what's happening. Love is getting going and his own teammates chill him out by jacking up bad shots. There are games, like yesterday, where they make Kyrie looks like a generous teammate.

When I talk about what happens the day after Love is traded, this is what I mean. What happens if the next guy the Cavs draft gets going and then gets iced out? Feeding the hot hand and forcing the defense to adjust, should be a very attainable goal. This is why I'm not as convinced things get fixed once Love is traded.

Love taking bad shots usually results from him growing frustrated in not getting enough touches or not getting touches over too long a time.

Who on this roster do you start and who do you bring off the bench to actually boost Loves value though? It aint gonna happen.
The players that are in there obviously are being treated by this org like lottery picks from the last 2 drafts cough cough...

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Seems our young players usually play well on the second night of a back to back when their leg's should be tired, but for whatever reason this "trap game" is what caught up with them. Lots of shots clanking off the front rim indicating tired legs.

Typically in a game like this you want to see your shooters adapt and take shorter shots and work the paint ... but our idea of working the paint is missing shots and Tristan putting them back, so ...

As for Kevin, he's still just as capable of shooting us out of a game as in it and often both in the same game. He takes a lot of difficult shots. We're not leveraging his gravity to create floor spacing, and that's also partially why we're not creating easier shots for him and everyone else.

If we end up trading Kevin, Henson, and Tristan, it will at least be interesting to see what lineups Beilein dreams up. Most likely a disaster waiting to happen, but there's also a potential opportunity to form a lineup that may open up the offense or perhaps defend the paint.

I'm not sure there's another team in the league where a good player comes out hits two of three or three of four three pointers in the first four minutes and then doesn't get another shot until he's subbed back in in the second quarter. That's not how it's suppose to work. It would be one thing if opposing defenses took away Love and it opened up good looks for other players. But that's not what's happening. Love is getting going and his own teammates chill him out by jacking up bad shots. There are games, like yesterday, where they make Kyrie looks like a generous teammate.

When I talk about what happens the day after Love is traded, this is what I mean. What happens if the next guy the Cavs draft gets going and then gets iced out? Feeding the hot hand and forcing the defense to adjust, should be a very attainable goal. This is why I'm not as convinced things get fixed once Love is traded.

Love taking bad shots usually results from him growing frustrated in not getting enough touches or not getting touches over too long a time.

Who on this roster do you start and who do you bring off the bench to actually boost Loves value though? It aint gonna happen.
The players that are in there obviously are being treated by this org like lottery picks from the last 2 drafts cough cough...

Exum, but even if you don't want to start Exum, the rotations need to be staggered in such a way that Love is not out there for 30 mpg with Sexton. If Love isn't getting good looks, then a huge part of his on the court value is missing.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Seems our young players usually play well on the second night of a back to back when their leg's should be tired, but for whatever reason this "trap game" is what caught up with them. Lots of shots clanking off the front rim indicating tired legs.

Typically in a game like this you want to see your shooters adapt and take shorter shots and work the paint ... but our idea of working the paint is missing shots and Tristan putting them back, so ...

As for Kevin, he's still just as capable of shooting us out of a game as in it and often both in the same game. He takes a lot of difficult shots. We're not leveraging his gravity to create floor spacing, and that's also partially why we're not creating easier shots for him and everyone else.

If we end up trading Kevin, Henson, and Tristan, it will at least be interesting to see what lineups Beilein dreams up. Most likely a disaster waiting to happen, but there's also a potential opportunity to form a lineup that may open up the offense or perhaps defend the paint.

I'm not sure there's another team in the league where a good player comes out hits two of three or three of four three pointers in the first four minutes and then doesn't get another shot until he's subbed back in in the second quarter. That's not how it's suppose to work. It would be one thing if opposing defenses took away Love and it opened up good looks for other players. But that's not what's happening. Love is getting going and his own teammates chill him out by jacking up bad shots. There are games, like yesterday, where they make Kyrie looks like a generous teammate.

When I talk about what happens the day after Love is traded, this is what I mean. What happens if the next guy the Cavs draft gets going and then gets iced out? Feeding the hot hand and forcing the defense to adjust, should be a very attainable goal. This is why I'm not as convinced things get fixed once Love is traded.

Love taking bad shots usually results from him growing frustrated in not getting enough touches or not getting touches over too long a time.

According to Popcorn machine, Kevin missed a 2 and a 3 after making his first pair of 3's during his initial 8:20 stint. After coming off the bench, he shot 0 for 4. Got hot again for a bit in the second half, but ended up shooting 4 for 14.

Kevin shooting inconsistently is not being helped by our PG play, but it's also nothing especially new either.

As a primary scorer, he's simply not good enough often enough to carry a team; and if we're not going to leverage his gravity properly, his negatives are going to overwhelm his positives.

I mean, his on-off net efficiency is currently sitting at -5.3 pp100. Our offense is worse when he's on the floor, and our defense is much worse.

We'd be probably better off playing Henson and Nance because then at least we'd be able to play some defense and ignite some fast break scoring for Collin.

But apparently we're either tanking hard or something is in the works because otherwise it's not clear why we let Alfonzo McKinnine do just enough to impress us before letting him walk and Henson has now missed completely 5 of the past 7 games.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Seems our young players usually play well on the second night of a back to back when their leg's should be tired, but for whatever reason this "trap game" is what caught up with them. Lots of shots clanking off the front rim indicating tired legs.

Typically in a game like this you want to see your shooters adapt and take shorter shots and work the paint ... but our idea of working the paint is missing shots and Tristan putting them back, so ...

As for Kevin, he's still just as capable of shooting us out of a game as in it and often both in the same game. He takes a lot of difficult shots. We're not leveraging his gravity to create floor spacing, and that's also partially why we're not creating easier shots for him and everyone else.

If we end up trading Kevin, Henson, and Tristan, it will at least be interesting to see what lineups Beilein dreams up. Most likely a disaster waiting to happen, but there's also a potential opportunity to form a lineup that may open up the offense or perhaps defend the paint.

I'm not sure there's another team in the league where a good player comes out hits two of three or three of four three pointers in the first four minutes and then doesn't get another shot until he's subbed back in in the second quarter. That's not how it's suppose to work. It would be one thing if opposing defenses took away Love and it opened up good looks for other players. But that's not what's happening. Love is getting going and his own teammates chill him out by jacking up bad shots. There are games, like yesterday, where they make Kyrie looks like a generous teammate.

When I talk about what happens the day after Love is traded, this is what I mean. What happens if the next guy the Cavs draft gets going and then gets iced out? Feeding the hot hand and forcing the defense to adjust, should be a very attainable goal. This is why I'm not as convinced things get fixed once Love is traded.

Love taking bad shots usually results from him growing frustrated in not getting enough touches or not getting touches over too long a time.

According to Popcorn machine, Kevin missed a 2 and a 3 after making his first pair of 3's during his initial 8:20 stint. After coming off the bench, he shot 0 for 4. Got hot again for a bit in the second half, but ended up shooting 4 for 14.

Kevin shooting inconsistently is not being helped by our PG play, but it's also nothing especially new either.

As a primary scorer, he's simply not good enough often enough to carry a team; and if we're not going to leverage his gravity properly, his negatives are going to overwhelm his positives.

I mean, his on-off net efficiency is currently sitting at -5.3 pp100. Our offense is worse when he's on the floor, and our defense is much worse.

We'd be probably better off playing Henson and Nance because then at least we'd be able to play some defense and ignite some fast break scoring for Collin.

But apparently we're either tanking hard or something is in the works because otherwise it's not clear why we let Alfonzo McKinnine do just enough to impress us before letting him walk and Henson has now missed completely 5 of the past 7 games.

According basketball reference Love's offensive and defensive ratings are 110 and 112. The Cavs, as a team, have a rating of 105.8 and 115. I'm very curious how Popcorn machine comes out at such a difference place. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2020.html

I'm not talking about Love carrying a team, I'm talking about Love shooting well and then going four or five minutes without touching the ball again for no other reason than other players freezing him out. Again, this is a problem that's going to exist independent of Love when he's gone, because you know who really isn't good enough to carry a team? Garland and Sexton.

Love is getting 17.3 points out of his 12 FGAs per game. Sexton is getting 19.3 points out of 16.3 FGA. Garland is getting 12.3 ppg off of 11.2 FGAs.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I'm not sure there's another team in the league where a good player comes out hits two of three or three of four three pointers in the first four minutes and then doesn't get another shot until he's subbed back in in the second quarter. That's not how it's suppose to work. It would be one thing if opposing defenses took away Love and it opened up good looks for other players. But that's not what's happening. Love is getting going and his own teammates chill him out by jacking up bad shots. There are games, like yesterday, where they make Kyrie looks like a generous teammate.

When I talk about what happens the day after Love is traded, this is what I mean. What happens if the next guy the Cavs draft gets going and then gets iced out? Feeding the hot hand and forcing the defense to adjust, should be a very attainable goal. This is why I'm not as convinced things get fixed once Love is traded.

Love taking bad shots usually results from him growing frustrated in not getting enough touches or not getting touches over too long a time.

According to Popcorn machine, Kevin missed a 2 and a 3 after making his first pair of 3's during his initial 8:20 stint. After coming off the bench, he shot 0 for 4. Got hot again for a bit in the second half, but ended up shooting 4 for 14.

Kevin shooting inconsistently is not being helped by our PG play, but it's also nothing especially new either.

As a primary scorer, he's simply not good enough often enough to carry a team; and if we're not going to leverage his gravity properly, his negatives are going to overwhelm his positives.

I mean, his on-off net efficiency is currently sitting at -5.3 pp100. Our offense is worse when he's on the floor, and our defense is much worse.

We'd be probably better off playing Henson and Nance because then at least we'd be able to play some defense and ignite some fast break scoring for Collin.

But apparently we're either tanking hard or something is in the works because otherwise it's not clear why we let Alfonzo McKinnine do just enough to impress us before letting him walk and Henson has now missed completely 5 of the past 7 games.

According basketball reference Love's offensive and defensive ratings are 110 and 112. The Cavs, as a team, have a rating of 105.8 and 115. I'm very curious how Popcorn machine comes out at such a difference place. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2020.html

I'm not talking about Love carrying a team, I'm talking about Love shooting well and then going four or five minutes without touching the ball again for no other reason than other players freezing him out. Again, this is a problem that's going to exist independent of Love when he's gone, because you know who really isn't good enough to carry a team? Garland and Sexton.

Love is getting 17.3 points out of his 12 FGAs per game. Sexton is getting 19.3 points out of 16.3 FGA. Garland is getting 12.3 ppg off of 11.2 FGAs.

Actually I was pulling net +/- from Basketball Reference ... Popcorn Machine is just handy for looking at game flows.

Last I knew, ORtg and DRtg (from BBR) are old metrics that attempt to estimate individual rating by taking the team's offensive and defensive rating then divvying it up based on box score stats. This sort of works for ORtg, but DRtg is especially clueless.

See https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html for details, but basically they are garbage stats in this day and age.

82games, otoh, actually tracks what happens during the game based on the game flows and does not rely on a box score estimation.

The Cavs are 107.0 pp100 with Kevin on the floor, and give up 117.6 (or -10.7). Just as interesting, the Cavs are +108.2 pp100 when Kevin is off the floor, and give up 113.8 (or -5.6).

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#onoff

The +/- numbers (which are a week old) lineup pretty well with the +/- numbers under the Play-by-Play section of BBR (which are also lineup based).

As you know our lineups have been a mess, so, the overall numbers are just kind of a summary of our problems. 82games also has data on our 5-man units, but we've changed everything BUT our starting lineup so much, there's not a lot of data on the other combinations.

See here:

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#5man

The second most used lineup would support an argument that Sexton+Love can work as long as Delly is used rather than Garland ... but it's just 54 minutes of data.

The 4th most used lineup has Clarkson instead of Garland/Delly and was even stronger, but they only played together for 30 minutes; and of course we traded Clarkson before he won us anymore games.

Garland was part of some good bench units too, but they were pretty much blown up when Clarkson was traded and Porter Jr got hurt.

I mean is there really any doubt we're focused on getting the young players as many shots, minutes, and experience we can with the intention of losing as many games as possible?

We stick with what doesn't work and breakup anything which does.

I'm almost feeling better about potentially setting Kevin and Tristan free for crap ...

One of these days someone is going to take the available advanced stat and lineup data and start grading coaches from GOOD to BAD and CLEARLY TANKING.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

According to Popcorn machine, Kevin missed a 2 and a 3 after making his first pair of 3's during his initial 8:20 stint. After coming off the bench, he shot 0 for 4. Got hot again for a bit in the second half, but ended up shooting 4 for 14.

Kevin shooting inconsistently is not being helped by our PG play, but it's also nothing especially new either.

As a primary scorer, he's simply not good enough often enough to carry a team; and if we're not going to leverage his gravity properly, his negatives are going to overwhelm his positives.

I mean, his on-off net efficiency is currently sitting at -5.3 pp100. Our offense is worse when he's on the floor, and our defense is much worse.

We'd be probably better off playing Henson and Nance because then at least we'd be able to play some defense and ignite some fast break scoring for Collin.

But apparently we're either tanking hard or something is in the works because otherwise it's not clear why we let Alfonzo McKinnine do just enough to impress us before letting him walk and Henson has now missed completely 5 of the past 7 games.

According basketball reference Love's offensive and defensive ratings are 110 and 112. The Cavs, as a team, have a rating of 105.8 and 115. I'm very curious how Popcorn machine comes out at such a difference place. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2020.html

I'm not talking about Love carrying a team, I'm talking about Love shooting well and then going four or five minutes without touching the ball again for no other reason than other players freezing him out. Again, this is a problem that's going to exist independent of Love when he's gone, because you know who really isn't good enough to carry a team? Garland and Sexton.

Love is getting 17.3 points out of his 12 FGAs per game. Sexton is getting 19.3 points out of 16.3 FGA. Garland is getting 12.3 ppg off of 11.2 FGAs.

Actually I was pulling net +/- from Basketball Reference ... Popcorn Machine is just handy for looking at game flows.

Last I knew, ORtg and DRtg (from BBR) are old metrics that attempt to estimate individual rating by taking the team's offensive and defensive rating then divvying it up based on box score stats. This sort of works for ORtg, but DRtg is especially clueless.

See https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html for details, but basically they are garbage stats in this day and age.

82games, otoh, actually tracks what happens during the game based on the game flows and does not rely on a box score estimation.

The Cavs are 107.0 pp100 with Kevin on the floor, and give up 117.6 (or -10.7). Just as interesting, the Cavs are +108.2 pp100 when Kevin is off the floor, and give up 113.8 (or -5.6).

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#onoff

The +/- numbers (which are a week old) lineup pretty well with the +/- numbers under the Play-by-Play section of BBR (which are also lineup based).

As you know our lineups have been a mess, so, the overall numbers are just kind of a summary of our problems. 82games also has data on our 5-man units, but we've changed everything BUT our starting lineup so much, there's not a lot of data on the other combinations.

See here:

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#5man

The second most used lineup would support an argument that Sexton+Love can work as long as Delly is used rather than Garland ... but it's just 54 minutes of data.

The 4th most used lineup has Clarkson instead of Garland/Delly and was even stronger, but they only played together for 30 minutes; and of course we traded Clarkson before he won us anymore games.

Garland was part of some good bench units too, but they were pretty much blown up when Clarkson was traded and Porter Jr got hurt.

I mean is there really any doubt we're focused on getting the young players as many shots, minutes, and experience we can with the intention of losing as many games as possible?

We stick with what doesn't work and breakup anything which does.

I'm almost feeling better about potentially setting Kevin and Tristan free for crap ...

One of these days someone is going to take the available advanced stat and lineup data and start grading coaches from GOOD to BAD and CLEARLY TANKING.

I mean if that's the explanation, then that's the explanation. But you better hit on your pick in that scenario because there are some pretty serious short, and possibly long-term, consequences that are going to flow from the current approach. You could've pushed up Love's numbers early, trade him for future picks, and then put the pedal to the metal with the tank. It didn't have to be this way.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
According basketball reference Love's offensive and defensive ratings are 110 and 112. The Cavs, as a team, have a rating of 105.8 and 115. I'm very curious how Popcorn machine comes out at such a difference place. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2020.html

I'm not talking about Love carrying a team, I'm talking about Love shooting well and then going four or five minutes without touching the ball again for no other reason than other players freezing him out. Again, this is a problem that's going to exist independent of Love when he's gone, because you know who really isn't good enough to carry a team? Garland and Sexton.

Love is getting 17.3 points out of his 12 FGAs per game. Sexton is getting 19.3 points out of 16.3 FGA. Garland is getting 12.3 ppg off of 11.2 FGAs.

Actually I was pulling net +/- from Basketball Reference ... Popcorn Machine is just handy for looking at game flows.

Last I knew, ORtg and DRtg (from BBR) are old metrics that attempt to estimate individual rating by taking the team's offensive and defensive rating then divvying it up based on box score stats. This sort of works for ORtg, but DRtg is especially clueless.

See https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html for details, but basically they are garbage stats in this day and age.

82games, otoh, actually tracks what happens during the game based on the game flows and does not rely on a box score estimation.

The Cavs are 107.0 pp100 with Kevin on the floor, and give up 117.6 (or -10.7). Just as interesting, the Cavs are +108.2 pp100 when Kevin is off the floor, and give up 113.8 (or -5.6).

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#onoff

The +/- numbers (which are a week old) lineup pretty well with the +/- numbers under the Play-by-Play section of BBR (which are also lineup based).

As you know our lineups have been a mess, so, the overall numbers are just kind of a summary of our problems. 82games also has data on our 5-man units, but we've changed everything BUT our starting lineup so much, there's not a lot of data on the other combinations.

See here:

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#5man

The second most used lineup would support an argument that Sexton+Love can work as long as Delly is used rather than Garland ... but it's just 54 minutes of data.

The 4th most used lineup has Clarkson instead of Garland/Delly and was even stronger, but they only played together for 30 minutes; and of course we traded Clarkson before he won us anymore games.

Garland was part of some good bench units too, but they were pretty much blown up when Clarkson was traded and Porter Jr got hurt.

I mean is there really any doubt we're focused on getting the young players as many shots, minutes, and experience we can with the intention of losing as many games as possible?

We stick with what doesn't work and breakup anything which does.

I'm almost feeling better about potentially setting Kevin and Tristan free for crap ...

One of these days someone is going to take the available advanced stat and lineup data and start grading coaches from GOOD to BAD and CLEARLY TANKING.

I mean if that's the explanation, then that's the explanation. But you better hit on your pick in that scenario because there are some pretty serious short, and possibly long-term, consequences that are going to flow from the current approach. You could've pushed up Love's numbers early, trade him for future picks, and then put the pedal to the metal with the tank. It didn't have to be this way.

I had this discussion with Stillwater recently and I'm afraid that's a hard push. Most? All? GM's know what Kevin is (and is not) around the league, and the rumor that we'd have to give up picks to move him started well before Kevin got upset and acted out.

A number of teams would love to rent him for the rest of the year, but the money left on his contract is still onerous because we overpaid him.

Case in point ... we let Clarkson do his thing without repercussions, and then traded his expiring contract to absorb a player that can't stay healthy, the Jazz weren't using, and is owed more money in the future. We got a couple of future seconds, saved some money this year, and maybe maybe Exum is worth some risk; but it's hard to say we got "value" for Clarkson.

Clarkson isn't really doing anything different in Utah, but they really needed some bench scoring and he continues to have a mildly positive net +/- on a much better team. Compared to Exum, though ... Clarkson is a grand slam (+4.9 on-court +/- .vs. -7.8).

Clarkson's on-court +/- was -6.3 for the Cavs while Exum's so far is -9.1. For reference, the Cavs as a team this year are -9.2.

From what I've seen, I think Exum will do better if we can get healthy and settle him in to a role .vs. using him as a utility infielder, but strictly by the numbers Clarkson was more productive for us and has been much more productive for the Jazz so far; but hey we got "something" for him.

The main thing is that the guys we might trade are healthy and look like they may help a team. We just need a trade partner more desperate to make a deal then we are to dump vets.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Actually I was pulling net +/- from Basketball Reference ... Popcorn Machine is just handy for looking at game flows.

Last I knew, ORtg and DRtg (from BBR) are old metrics that attempt to estimate individual rating by taking the team's offensive and defensive rating then divvying it up based on box score stats. This sort of works for ORtg, but DRtg is especially clueless.

See https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html for details, but basically they are garbage stats in this day and age.

82games, otoh, actually tracks what happens during the game based on the game flows and does not rely on a box score estimation.

The Cavs are 107.0 pp100 with Kevin on the floor, and give up 117.6 (or -10.7). Just as interesting, the Cavs are +108.2 pp100 when Kevin is off the floor, and give up 113.8 (or -5.6).

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#onoff

The +/- numbers (which are a week old) lineup pretty well with the +/- numbers under the Play-by-Play section of BBR (which are also lineup based).

As you know our lineups have been a mess, so, the overall numbers are just kind of a summary of our problems. 82games also has data on our 5-man units, but we've changed everything BUT our starting lineup so much, there's not a lot of data on the other combinations.

See here:

http://www.82games.com/1920/19CLE14.HTM#5man

The second most used lineup would support an argument that Sexton+Love can work as long as Delly is used rather than Garland ... but it's just 54 minutes of data.

The 4th most used lineup has Clarkson instead of Garland/Delly and was even stronger, but they only played together for 30 minutes; and of course we traded Clarkson before he won us anymore games.

Garland was part of some good bench units too, but they were pretty much blown up when Clarkson was traded and Porter Jr got hurt.

I mean is there really any doubt we're focused on getting the young players as many shots, minutes, and experience we can with the intention of losing as many games as possible?

We stick with what doesn't work and breakup anything which does.

I'm almost feeling better about potentially setting Kevin and Tristan free for crap ...

One of these days someone is going to take the available advanced stat and lineup data and start grading coaches from GOOD to BAD and CLEARLY TANKING.

I mean if that's the explanation, then that's the explanation. But you better hit on your pick in that scenario because there are some pretty serious short, and possibly long-term, consequences that are going to flow from the current approach. You could've pushed up Love's numbers early, trade him for future picks, and then put the pedal to the metal with the tank. It didn't have to be this way.

I had this discussion with Stillwater recently and I'm afraid that's a hard push. Most? All? GM's know what Kevin is (and is not) around the league, and the rumor that we'd have to give up picks to move him started well before Kevin got upset and acted out.

A number of teams would love to rent him for the rest of the year, but the money left on his contract is still onerous because we overpaid him.

Case in point ... we let Clarkson do his thing without repercussions, and then traded his expiring contract to absorb a player that can't stay healthy, the Jazz weren't using, and is owed more money in the future. We got a couple of future seconds, saved some money this year, and maybe maybe Exum is worth some risk; but it's hard to say we got "value" for Clarkson.

Clarkson isn't really doing anything different in Utah, but they really needed some bench scoring and he continues to have a mildly positive net +/- on a much better team. Compared to Exum, though ... Clarkson is a grand slam (+4.9 on-court +/- .vs. -7.8).

Clarkson's on-court +/- was -6.3 for the Cavs while Exum's so far is -9.1. For reference, the Cavs as a team this year are -9.2.

From what I've seen, I think Exum will do better if we can get healthy and settle him in to a role .vs. using him as a utility infielder, but strictly by the numbers Clarkson was more productive for us and has been much more productive for the Jazz so far; but hey we got "something" for him.

The main thing is that the guys we might trade are healthy and look like they may help a team. We just need a trade partner more desperate to make a deal then we are to dump vets.

I think that if Love was averaging more than 20 ppg, instead of 17, and was getting a sufficient number of good looks, so he didn't feel the need to force bad ones, no one would be talking about attaching picks to move him. I also believe his plus/minus numbers would look very different. It wouldn't have been that difficult.

Also, I'm not buying the Clarkson comp. It's flawed for a couple reasons.
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jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I mean if that's the explanation, then that's the explanation. But you better hit on your pick in that scenario because there are some pretty serious short, and possibly long-term, consequences that are going to flow from the current approach. You could've pushed up Love's numbers early, trade him for future picks, and then put the pedal to the metal with the tank. It didn't have to be this way.

I had this discussion with Stillwater recently and I'm afraid that's a hard push. Most? All? GM's know what Kevin is (and is not) around the league, and the rumor that we'd have to give up picks to move him started well before Kevin got upset and acted out.

A number of teams would love to rent him for the rest of the year, but the money left on his contract is still onerous because we overpaid him.

Case in point ... we let Clarkson do his thing without repercussions, and then traded his expiring contract to absorb a player that can't stay healthy, the Jazz weren't using, and is owed more money in the future. We got a couple of future seconds, saved some money this year, and maybe maybe Exum is worth some risk; but it's hard to say we got "value" for Clarkson.

Clarkson isn't really doing anything different in Utah, but they really needed some bench scoring and he continues to have a mildly positive net +/- on a much better team. Compared to Exum, though ... Clarkson is a grand slam (+4.9 on-court +/- .vs. -7.8).

Clarkson's on-court +/- was -6.3 for the Cavs while Exum's so far is -9.1. For reference, the Cavs as a team this year are -9.2.

From what I've seen, I think Exum will do better if we can get healthy and settle him in to a role .vs. using him as a utility infielder, but strictly by the numbers Clarkson was more productive for us and has been much more productive for the Jazz so far; but hey we got "something" for him.

The main thing is that the guys we might trade are healthy and look like they may help a team. We just need a trade partner more desperate to make a deal then we are to dump vets.

I think that if Love was averaging more than 20 ppg, instead of 17, and was getting a sufficient number of good looks, so he didn't feel the need to force bad ones, no one would be talking about attaching picks to move him. I also believe his plus/minus numbers would look very different. It wouldn't have been that difficult.

Also, I'm not buying the Clarkson comp. It's flawed for a couple reasons.

Why do you think any GM cares if Kevin scores 3 more ppg? Or if his shot selection was improved?

If you look at Kevin's per 36 numbers, they are right around his career average. His TS% is actually second highest in his career. He's averaging 11.6 rpg with less than 1 offensive rebound per game.

It's simply not about his offensive numbers.

It's about his salary, the years left on his deal, his age, his lingering back problems, his mental issues, and his defense/hustle.

Plus the trade market just seems soft heading in to the deadline. Some of the contenders who might want to make a major move don't have the pieces to pull it off, and those that do have Gallo rated higher.