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Sexton overdribbling in the half court really gets old. He's just a dumb player.

The Bulls won't be out tanked though. They're giving Felicio some run.

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I know the Cavs are tanking, but it so obvious that our starters negatively impact one another that maintaining the current starting lineup is borderline inexplicable.

It's hurting the trade value of both TT and Love, while simultaneously not doing much in terms of development for Sexton and Garland.

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I don't know what it's going to take to get the Cavs to stop playing Sexton and Love together but Love had clearly had enough.

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Not trolling, I come in peace, but what was your coach thinking? We scored 81 last night because Luke Walton said "I won't be beaten by LaVine" and swarmed him, daring the other Bulls to score. Why did not the Cavs do the same? I mean, look at our lineup. Bizarre.

People need to chill, baby steps for the babies ...
Nobody wants KLove and no amount of lineup changes will make that change.
If they wanted to move him they should have early in the season when Garland had the excuse of being fresh off a long term injury so they could have brought him on slowly and put knight who had a notable tc in justified to take his minutes to boost Love looks. They also could have used JC in the starting lineup if their goal was to boost all vets values . They didn't they don't care about it and there is no point at this juncture.

Stillwater wrote:People need to chill, baby steps for the babies ...
Nobody wants KLove and no amount of lineup changes will make that change.
If they wanted to move him they should have early in the season when Garland had the excuse of being fresh off a long term injury so they could have brought him on slowly and put knight who had a notable tc in justified to take his minutes to boost Love looks. They also could have used JC in the starting lineup if their goal was to boost all vets values . They didn't they don't care about it and there is no point at this juncture.

It's not just the starting line up, although that needs to change, it's that Love can't get on the floor without Sexton also being out there - at any point in the game. It's absurd. They're obviously bad together. I'm dying to know what the thought process is behind that.

Also, things can worse. They often do.

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Ice Man wrote:Not trolling, I come in peace, but what was your coach thinking? We scored 81 last night because Luke Walton said "I won't be beaten by LaVine" and swarmed him, daring the other Bulls to score. Why did not the Cavs do the same? I mean, look at our lineup. Bizarre.

We're tanking and part of me wonders whether Bickerstaff, who is in charge of rotations, is trying to get Beilein fired so he can take over.

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On a final note, nights like tonight are why the Cavs have no business offering TT a big deal. He was our worst big on the floor by a wide margin.

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Cavs young players making mistakes and learning hard lessons with love on the floor is good for them and this org even if it makes love look bad. The fact this org hasn't been motivated to alter it, is many reasons but the glaring one is they never wanted to trade love until he recently said this developing grind and how it's making him look bad was getting him down.
So now they are like wtf there is no better options now anyway.

Stillwater wrote:Cavs young players making mistakes and learning hard lessons with love on the floor is good for them and this org even if it makes love look bad. The fact this org hasn't been motivated to alter it, is many reasons but the glaring one is they never wanted to trade love until he recently said this developing grind and how it's making him look bad was getting him down.
So now they are like wtf there is no better options now anyway.

I'm not seeing a lot of lesson learning out there.

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jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:Cavs young players making mistakes and learning hard lessons with love on the floor is good for them and this org even if it makes love look bad. The fact this org hasn't been motivated to alter it, is many reasons but the glaring one is they never wanted to trade love until he recently said this developing grind and how it's making him look bad was getting him down.
So now they are like wtf there is no better options now anyway.

I'm not seeing a lot of lesson learning out there.

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I am they just keep making similar mistakes because defenses are a step ahead of them usually.they are definitely getting plenty of film study based on it, and you can't learn how to fix it unless you're out there.

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:Cavs young players making mistakes and learning hard lessons with love on the floor is good for them and this org even if it makes love look bad. The fact this org hasn't been motivated to alter it, is many reasons but the glaring one is they never wanted to trade love until he recently said this developing grind and how it's making him look bad was getting him down.
So now they are like wtf there is no better options now anyway.

I'm not seeing a lot of lesson learning out there.

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I am they just keep making similar mistakes because defenses are a step ahead of them usually.they are definitely getting plenty of film study based on it, and you can't learn how to fix it unless you're out there.

You make a good point here ... Love gives the guards a pick & pop target, and Tristan gives them a pick and roll / dump off target. Given we want to tank, the results are almost secondary to their willingness to at least continue running the plays.

However, I'd imagine they'd learn faster as part of semi-functional lineups that moved the ball better - and we've seen this at times with the second unit.

For whatever their reasons (iotw, could be more than tanking) they're locked in to this starting 5 ... at least until the trade deadline ...

jbk1234 wrote:

Ice Man wrote:Not trolling, I come in peace, but what was your coach thinking? We scored 81 last night because Luke Walton said "I won't be beaten by LaVine" and swarmed him, daring the other Bulls to score. Why did not the Cavs do the same? I mean, look at our lineup. Bizarre.

We're tanking and part of me wonders whether Bickerstaff, who is in charge of rotations, is trying to get Beilein fired so he can take over.

Running terrible lineups and a terrible defense is probably not the best path to a head coaching gig; but Beilein is in charge of the starters and some of this seems to be organizational.

While it's getting harder to watch these games, some of the issues are due to injuries and general suckiness. I mean, Chicago put the game away late in the 3rd quarter when the Cavs went to Garland-Exum-Nance-McKinnie-Thompson. Those guys should have been able to defend some, but the obvious part missing was Henson. Is Henson on a minutes restriction? Are we just trying to keep him healthy until the deadline?

There's a lot of weird stuff going on ...

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Ice Man wrote:Not trolling, I come in peace, but what was your coach thinking? We scored 81 last night because Luke Walton said "I won't be beaten by LaVine" and swarmed him, daring the other Bulls to score. Why did not the Cavs do the same? I mean, look at our lineup. Bizarre.

We're tanking and part of me wonders whether Bickerstaff, who is in charge of rotations, is trying to get Beilein fired so he can take over.

Running terrible lineups and a terrible defense is probably not the best path to a head coaching gig; but Beilein is in charge of the starters and some of this seems to be organizational.

While it's getting harder to watch these games, some of the issues are due to injuries and general suckiness. I mean, Chicago put the game away late in the 3rd quarter when the Cavs went to Garland-Exum-Nance-McKinnie-Thompson. Those guys should have been able to defend some, but the obvious part missing was Henson. Is Henson on a minutes restriction? Are we just trying to keep him healthy until the deadline?

There's a lot of weird stuff going on ...

Fedor reported out that Bickerstaff is in charge of rotations. My issue, increasingly, is why can't Love get minutes without Sexton also being on the floor. If we're trying to increase someone's trade value, it's not working.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:We're tanking and part of me wonders whether Bickerstaff, who is in charge of rotations, is trying to get Beilein fired so he can take over.

Running terrible lineups and a terrible defense is probably not the best path to a head coaching gig; but Beilein is in charge of the starters and some of this seems to be organizational.

While it's getting harder to watch these games, some of the issues are due to injuries and general suckiness. I mean, Chicago put the game away late in the 3rd quarter when the Cavs went to Garland-Exum-Nance-McKinnie-Thompson. Those guys should have been able to defend some, but the obvious part missing was Henson. Is Henson on a minutes restriction? Are we just trying to keep him healthy until the deadline?

There's a lot of weird stuff going on ...

Fedor reported out that Bickerstaff is in charge of rotations. My issue, increasingly, is why can't Love get minutes without Sexton also being on the floor. If we're trying to increase someone's trade value, it's not working.

What I take that to mean is that Bickerstaff is in charge of the nuts & bolts during the game ... in other words, who needs to get their rear up to the scorers table and when. It may go beyond that, but if Beilein has abdicated strategic roster decisions, then he's already not our head coach.

I'm sure there are reasons for what we're seeing, but unless Fedor or someone asks the question, all we can do is guess.

it's my take that they " they being the entire coaching staff and org shot callers" are not actually trying to improve KLove's trade value before the dl as they never in fact ever had intentions of moving him until this summer, and after taking a major hit to his value when he went on his tantrums despite him now playing "nice guy" with the media they almost certainly don't see an opportunity to raise his value by changing line ups. The goal is a top 2 pick or bust "again" and Love unfortunately will just have to wait it out unless for some unexpected reason an org has a key injury or is in full desperation win now mode that they would give up decent value in exchange for Love but that is slim to none odds at this point. The only way they move him before the DL imo is if we take back a different long contract of a lesser player with an asset attached either a late first or high 2nd or player from that draft range in the last 2 drafts.
I think they would move him for an expiring or two and a 1st but also think teams are not going to offer it. maybe if they are lucky he stays healthy and can be traded on draft day for a known commodity pick and a player or players that can fit the system

I imagine Altman will try to get creative with trade offers, but he may be forced to suck it up and just take the best offer if it's clear that Kevin or Tristan are going to cause issues if they're not traded.

If we can't get even a mildly positive offer, we could explore a buy out; but even the thought of that hurts our bargaining position with other teams.

It's kind of like our other rebuilds ... our dysfunctionality always prevents us from developing players that other teams want, so we have no true assets to trade for pieces we need. I hoped Beilein would change that, but apparently we've prioritized not letting the other sorry teams out tank us this year.

JonFromVA wrote:I imagine Altman will try to get creative with trade offers, but he may be forced to suck it up and just take the best offer if it's clear that Kevin or Tristan are going to cause issues if they're not traded.

If we can't get even a mildly positive offer, we could explore a buy out; but even the thought of that hurts our bargaining position with other teams.

It's kind of like our other rebuilds ... our dysfunctionality always prevents us from developing players that other teams want, so we have no true assets to trade for pieces we need. I hoped Beilein would change that, but apparently we've prioritized not letting the other sorry teams out tank us this year.

sure but Altman is not under any pressure to trade Love now no matter how disgruntled he may actually be as Love himself has to wake up to the reality he isn't viewed as a major asset with his enormous contract despite all of us knowing full well he worth nearly all of it in a better situation. Unfortunately he is not the type of highly paid player that can feast at his best without someone feeding him, otherwise we could have gotten a haul regardless of the team situation.
I don't think they will get much for TT if it's true he is claiming he wants a unreasonable payday... so I expect he will just leave in FA if nobody offers a first attached to a 21 expiring or a high 2nd and a 2020 expiring. which was possible from DAL before they traded for WCS. now not so sure it will happen.

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:I imagine Altman will try to get creative with trade offers, but he may be forced to suck it up and just take the best offer if it's clear that Kevin or Tristan are going to cause issues if they're not traded.

If we can't get even a mildly positive offer, we could explore a buy out; but even the thought of that hurts our bargaining position with other teams.

It's kind of like our other rebuilds ... our dysfunctionality always prevents us from developing players that other teams want, so we have no true assets to trade for pieces we need. I hoped Beilein would change that, but apparently we've prioritized not letting the other sorry teams out tank us this year.

sure but Altman is not under any pressure to trade Love now no matter how disgruntled he may actually be as Love himself has to wake up to the reality he isn't viewed as a major asset with his enormous contract despite all of us knowing full well he worth nearly all of it in a better situation. Unfortunately he is not the type of highly paid player that can feast at his best without someone feeding him, otherwise we could have gotten a haul regardless of the team situation.
I don't think they will get much for TT if it's true he is claiming he wants a unreasonable payday... so I expect he will just leave in FA if nobody offers a first attached to a 21 expiring or a high 2nd and a 2020 expiring. which was possible from DAL before they traded for WCS. now not so sure it will happen.

We need a team which can fit Love's salary in their books for the next few years, can absorb his contract with expirings or bad contracts, has assets we want, has a PG that can feed him, a defense that can protect him, and doesn't prefer Gallo.

There are some candidates, but when there are that many conditions, it's really hard to pull something off.

Anyway, the reason the Cavs might accept a crappy deal is the threat that Kevin and/or TT will cause locker-room problems. Probably not an issue with TT because by hook or crook he can go where he wants this Summer.

But everyone is wondering whether things settled down between Kevin and the Cavs, or if they just put it on the back burner and he'll be screaming at the coach and GM again if he's still on the team after the deadline.

So, there's a fair chance that a potential trade partner will walk away from negotiations and gamble on a buyout. I mean why pay Love $100M if there's a small chance you might get him for the vet minimum?