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Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho)

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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#41 » by jbk1234 » Fri Feb 7, 2020 3:46 pm

Phreak50 wrote:I wonder how many of the fans here with positive thoughts on this move have actually watched Drummond play vs reading his box scores.

He has less skill on offense than TT and is one of the biggest bonehead decision makers in the game.

I don't get the move at all.


The best spin I can put on it is the cost was minimal and we can try him out for at least 30 games before having to make any long term commitment. If he opts in this summer, he may have more trade value this summer as a one year rental.

I don't know what happened in that TT game against Drummond but in the decade that TT has been in the league, that's happened once. He's a really limited player offensively. I suspect he just caught Drummond napping. Drummond is better offensively if for the simple fact he won't get his shot blocked in the post 4 times a game.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#42 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:09 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Phreak50 wrote:I wonder how many of the fans here with positive thoughts on this move have actually watched Drummond play vs reading his box scores.

He has less skill on offense than TT and is one of the biggest bonehead decision makers in the game.

I don't get the move at all.


The best spin I can put on it is the cost was minimal and we can try him out for at least 30 games before having to make any long term commitment. If he opts in this summer, he may have more trade value this summer as a one year rental.

I don't know what happened in that TT game against Drummond but in the decade that TT has been in the league, that's happened once. He's a really limited player offensively. I suspect he just caught Drummond napping. Drummond is better offensively if for the simple fact he won't get his shot blocked in the post 4 times a game.


I think this is about trying to make peace with Kevin and trying to keep a front-court intact for the future. We have Bird rights for both Thompson and Drummond, and there isn't much money this Summer. We might get either one or both back on a reasonable deal -or- might get something back via a S&T. If Drummond takes his option, then we've got a huge expiring going in to the next season when a lot high-end players may be available in free-agency and/or if he falls through the cracks, another shot to re-sign him for cheap.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#43 » by jbk1234 » Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:14 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Phreak50 wrote:I wonder how many of the fans here with positive thoughts on this move have actually watched Drummond play vs reading his box scores.

He has less skill on offense than TT and is one of the biggest bonehead decision makers in the game.

I don't get the move at all.


The best spin I can put on it is the cost was minimal and we can try him out for at least 30 games before having to make any long term commitment. If he opts in this summer, he may have more trade value this summer as a one year rental.

I don't know what happened in that TT game against Drummond but in the decade that TT has been in the league, that's happened once. He's a really limited player offensively. I suspect he just caught Drummond napping. Drummond is better offensively if for the simple fact he won't get his shot blocked in the post 4 times a game.


I think this is about trying to make peace with Kevin and trying to keep a front-court intact for the future. We have Bird rights for both Thompson and Drummond, and there isn't much money this Summer. We might get either one or both back on a reasonable deal -or- might get something back via a S&T. If Drummond takes his option, then we've got a huge expiring going in to the next season when a lot high-end players may be available in free-agency and/or if he falls through the cracks, another shot to re-sign him for cheap.


Please stop talking about re-signing both TT and Drummond as a real possibility. You're totally freaking me out. It's like when you use PF and Tristan in the same sentence. I understand what those words mean but they don't make any sense when they're put together like that.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#44 » by JJ_PR » Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:45 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
The best spin I can put on it is the cost was minimal and we can try him out for at least 30 games before having to make any long term commitment. If he opts in this summer, he may have more trade value this summer as a one year rental.

I don't know what happened in that TT game against Drummond but in the decade that TT has been in the league, that's happened once. He's a really limited player offensively. I suspect he just caught Drummond napping. Drummond is better offensively if for the simple fact he won't get his shot blocked in the post 4 times a game.


I think this is about trying to make peace with Kevin and trying to keep a front-court intact for the future. We have Bird rights for both Thompson and Drummond, and there isn't much money this Summer. We might get either one or both back on a reasonable deal -or- might get something back via a S&T. If Drummond takes his option, then we've got a huge expiring going in to the next season when a lot high-end players may be available in free-agency and/or if he falls through the cracks, another shot to re-sign him for cheap.


Please stop talking about re-signing both TT and Drummond as a real possibility. You're totally freaking me out. It's like when you use PF and Tristan in the same sentence. I understand what those words mean but they don't make any sense when they're put together like that.


I think it would be a good idea to bring TT & Delly back on one year deals to use them as trade bait to acquire longer deals & assets.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#45 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:49 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
The best spin I can put on it is the cost was minimal and we can try him out for at least 30 games before having to make any long term commitment. If he opts in this summer, he may have more trade value this summer as a one year rental.

I don't know what happened in that TT game against Drummond but in the decade that TT has been in the league, that's happened once. He's a really limited player offensively. I suspect he just caught Drummond napping. Drummond is better offensively if for the simple fact he won't get his shot blocked in the post 4 times a game.


I think this is about trying to make peace with Kevin and trying to keep a front-court intact for the future. We have Bird rights for both Thompson and Drummond, and there isn't much money this Summer. We might get either one or both back on a reasonable deal -or- might get something back via a S&T. If Drummond takes his option, then we've got a huge expiring going in to the next season when a lot high-end players may be available in free-agency and/or if he falls through the cracks, another shot to re-sign him for cheap.


Please stop talking about re-signing both TT and Drummond as a real possibility. You're totally freaking me out. It's like when you use PF and Tristan in the same sentence. I understand what those words mean but they don't make any sense when they're put together like that.


I have a better idea. Why don't you try to understand the context I used around those words rather than applying your own?

I mean if we wake up next season, and PJ Tucker is one of the tallest C's in the league ... then sure, either Tristan or Kevin could be our starting C; but even with the league trending that way neither is ideally suited for that role because they both have PF size. For Kevin, there's a heightened injury risk playing him at C because of his back; and for Tristan the wear and tear saps his biggest strength (his motor). They say you are what you defend, and Tristan is best at defending PF's.

Andre, otoh, has terrific size and length for the position, can defend 7ft 300lb C's and yes, if they weren't going to cost a combined $50M (or whatever) they could potentially form a solid rotation at C.

So, if they both happened to "fall through the cracks", what exactly do you think that means?

If everyone either a) considers them dinosaurs, or b) lacks cap space to sign them ... what might they cost us to re-sign with our Bird rights? What if they're only getting MLE offers?

Would you take them back for $20M combined? $30M combined?

Maybe you don't like the idea of playing a non-floor spacing C in this day and age, so maybe there is no number for you. Maybe you think they're redundant. Heck, maybe we even agree?

But ...

"I think this is about ..." means I'm trying to figure out what the Cavs might be thinking.

Context.

They may very well like the idea of going big as the rest of the league goes small. They may see that as the next market weakness to be exploited.

Or not? Maybe this is just another case of Dan Gilbert loving all things Detroit ...

*shrugs*

Part of being optimistic is hoping that all that money Dan Gilbert spends on his front office might very well lead to better decisions than we as fans of the team might make. Having an open mind means in spite of doubts or concerns - accepting that a move may actually be rational and make some sort of sense.

The trick is figuring out what.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#46 » by jbk1234 » Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:50 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I think this is about trying to make peace with Kevin and trying to keep a front-court intact for the future. We have Bird rights for both Thompson and Drummond, and there isn't much money this Summer. We might get either one or both back on a reasonable deal -or- might get something back via a S&T. If Drummond takes his option, then we've got a huge expiring going in to the next season when a lot high-end players may be available in free-agency and/or if he falls through the cracks, another shot to re-sign him for cheap.


Please stop talking about re-signing both TT and Drummond as a real possibility. You're totally freaking me out. It's like when you use PF and Tristan in the same sentence. I understand what those words mean but they don't make any sense when they're put together like that.


I have a better idea. Why don't you try to understand the context I used around those words rather than applying your own?

I mean if we wake up next season, and PJ Tucker is one of the tallest C's in the league ... then sure, either Tristan or Kevin could be our starting C; but even with the league trending that way neither is ideally suited for that role because they both have PF size. For Kevin, there's a heightened injury risk playing him at C because of his back; and for Tristan the wear and tear saps his biggest strength (his motor). They say you are what you defend, and Tristan is best at defending PF's.

Andre, otoh, has terrific size and length for the position, can defend 7ft 300lb C's and yes, if they weren't going to cost a combined $50M (or whatever) they could potentially form a solid rotation at C.

So, if they both happened to "fall through the cracks", what exactly do you think that means?

If everyone either a) considers them dinosaurs, or b) lacks cap space to sign them ... what might they cost us to re-sign with our Bird rights? What if they're only getting MLE offers?

Would you take them back for $20M combined? $30M combined?

Maybe you don't like the idea of playing a non-floor spacing C in this day and age, so maybe there is no number for you. Maybe you think they're redundant. Heck, maybe we even agree?

But ...

"I think this is about ..." means I'm trying to figure out what the Cavs might be thinking.

Context.

They may very well like the idea of going big as the rest of the league goes small. They may see that as the next market weakness to be exploited.

Or not? Maybe this is just another case of Dan Gilbert loving all things Detroit ...

*shrugs*

Part of being optimistic is hoping that all that money Dan Gilbert spends on his front office might very well lead to better decisions than we as fans of the team might make. Having an open mind means in spite of doubts or concerns - accepting that a move may actually be rational and make some sort of sense.

The trick is figuring out what.


That was mostly snark/joke Jon. But to be honest, they're way too redundant IMO.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#47 » by jbk1234 » Fri Feb 7, 2020 4:55 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#48 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 5:02 pm

JJ_PR wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I think this is about trying to make peace with Kevin and trying to keep a front-court intact for the future. We have Bird rights for both Thompson and Drummond, and there isn't much money this Summer. We might get either one or both back on a reasonable deal -or- might get something back via a S&T. If Drummond takes his option, then we've got a huge expiring going in to the next season when a lot high-end players may be available in free-agency and/or if he falls through the cracks, another shot to re-sign him for cheap.


Please stop talking about re-signing both TT and Drummond as a real possibility. You're totally freaking me out. It's like when you use PF and Tristan in the same sentence. I understand what those words mean but they don't make any sense when they're put together like that.


I think it would be a good idea to bring TT & Delly back on one year deals to use them as trade bait to acquire longer deals & assets.


Sort of pay them forward? That's kind of where we're at now and we can't deal them.

Another team might offer Tristan one of those big money one year deals, and if we're over the salary cap but still be under the luxury tax maybe it would make sense to match it; but I don't think I'd offer him one of those deals. I'd shoot for like a 3 year deal with a team option on the 3rd year at team favorable rate - or let him walk.

Same thing with Andre if he decides not to take his option, albeit he's younger and we could be more flexible with the years at the right price.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#49 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 5:05 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Please stop talking about re-signing both TT and Drummond as a real possibility. You're totally freaking me out. It's like when you use PF and Tristan in the same sentence. I understand what those words mean but they don't make any sense when they're put together like that.


I have a better idea. Why don't you try to understand the context I used around those words rather than applying your own?

I mean if we wake up next season, and PJ Tucker is one of the tallest C's in the league ... then sure, either Tristan or Kevin could be our starting C; but even with the league trending that way neither is ideally suited for that role because they both have PF size. For Kevin, there's a heightened injury risk playing him at C because of his back; and for Tristan the wear and tear saps his biggest strength (his motor). They say you are what you defend, and Tristan is best at defending PF's.

Andre, otoh, has terrific size and length for the position, can defend 7ft 300lb C's and yes, if they weren't going to cost a combined $50M (or whatever) they could potentially form a solid rotation at C.

So, if they both happened to "fall through the cracks", what exactly do you think that means?

If everyone either a) considers them dinosaurs, or b) lacks cap space to sign them ... what might they cost us to re-sign with our Bird rights? What if they're only getting MLE offers?

Would you take them back for $20M combined? $30M combined?

Maybe you don't like the idea of playing a non-floor spacing C in this day and age, so maybe there is no number for you. Maybe you think they're redundant. Heck, maybe we even agree?

But ...

"I think this is about ..." means I'm trying to figure out what the Cavs might be thinking.

Context.

They may very well like the idea of going big as the rest of the league goes small. They may see that as the next market weakness to be exploited.

Or not? Maybe this is just another case of Dan Gilbert loving all things Detroit ...

*shrugs*

Part of being optimistic is hoping that all that money Dan Gilbert spends on his front office might very well lead to better decisions than we as fans of the team might make. Having an open mind means in spite of doubts or concerns - accepting that a move may actually be rational and make some sort of sense.

The trick is figuring out what.


That was mostly snark/joke Jon. But to be honest, they're way too redundant IMO.


Missed that, thanks for the clarification.

But redundant is ok if we can resist playing them together at the same time and/or one of them gets hurt.

Again, it comes down to price tag for that luxury.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#50 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 5:11 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20


Just keep in mind, Sam Amick with SI is the one with "sauces", Sam Amico has a rep for making stuff up.

If Andre thinks the Cavs could be a long-term fit, then unless for some reason the CBA doesn't allow it, I'd think he'd be focused on a contract extension. Otherwise, he's just playing the leverage game hoping that in a year where there should be a lot money available that when the music stops there will be a chair left with a max contract for him.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#51 » by jbk1234 » Fri Feb 7, 2020 6:26 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20


Just keep in mind, Sam Amick with SI is the one with "sauces", Sam Amico has a rep for making stuff up.

If Andre thinks the Cavs could be a long-term fit, then unless for some reason the CBA doesn't allow it, I'd think he'd be focused on a contract extension. Otherwise, he's just playing the leverage game hoping that in a year where there should be a lot money available that when the music stops there will be a chair left with a max contract for him.


There will be a lot more money on the market in 2021 and the team with the most money this summer will be - wait for it - the Detroit Pistons.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#52 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 6:48 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20


Just keep in mind, Sam Amick with SI is the one with "sauces", Sam Amico has a rep for making stuff up.

If Andre thinks the Cavs could be a long-term fit, then unless for some reason the CBA doesn't allow it, I'd think he'd be focused on a contract extension. Otherwise, he's just playing the leverage game hoping that in a year where there should be a lot money available that when the music stops there will be a chair left with a max contract for him.


There will be a lot more money on the market in 2021 and the team with the most money this summer will be - wait for it - the Detroit Pistons.


Andre including this season has already earned over $100M ... he can afford to bet on himself, but there's a fair chance he's one of the players left without a chair when the music stops playing regardless of whether he decides to play musical chairs in 2020 or 2021.

Or to be more precise, all signs point to him (and Tristan) not getting what they want.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#53 » by flow » Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:29 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20


Just keep in mind, Sam Amick with SI is the one with "sauces", Sam Amico has a rep for making stuff up.

If Andre thinks the Cavs could be a long-term fit, then unless for some reason the CBA doesn't allow it, I'd think he'd be focused on a contract extension. Otherwise, he's just playing the leverage game hoping that in a year where there should be a lot money available that when the music stops there will be a chair left with a max contract for him.


He'll sign your extension this afternoon if you pay him what he thinks he's worth.

Congrats.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#54 » by Stillwater » Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:37 pm

what I think is funny, is despite the fact the league is moving away from traditional bigs most all still have them and we just got the best rebounder in the NBA... we are not going to be playing for championships in the next 3 seasons so any amount of fit or lack of it, really doesn't matter as long as the personnel available to Beilein can do their respective job.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#55 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:48 pm

Stillwater wrote:what I think is funny, is despite the fact the league is moving away from traditional bigs most all still have them and we just got the best rebounder in the NBA... we are not going to be playing for championships in the next 3 seasons so any amount of fit or lack of it, really doesn't matter as long as the personnel available to Beilein can do their respective job.


The time seems ripe for some more defensive creativity ... if you don't want your big man trying to run out to the 3pt line then back all the way to protect the paint, why not play some zone variation?

They sure work well against us ... especially when the other team has a scrappy/pesky perimeter defender.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#56 » by Stillwater » Fri Feb 7, 2020 7:53 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:what I think is funny, is despite the fact the league is moving away from traditional bigs most all still have them and we just got the best rebounder in the NBA... we are not going to be playing for championships in the next 3 seasons so any amount of fit or lack of it, really doesn't matter as long as the personnel available to Beilein can do their respective job.


The time seems ripe for some more defensive creativity ... if you don't want your big man trying to run out to the 3pt line then back all the way to protect the paint, why not play some zone variation?

They sure work well against us ... especially when the other team has a scrappy/pesky perimeter defender.

some reps at it for future sake could happen, but they really cannot be that interested in doing what it takes to play winning basketball suddenly just because of this move
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#57 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 7, 2020 8:32 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:what I think is funny, is despite the fact the league is moving away from traditional bigs most all still have them and we just got the best rebounder in the NBA... we are not going to be playing for championships in the next 3 seasons so any amount of fit or lack of it, really doesn't matter as long as the personnel available to Beilein can do their respective job.


The time seems ripe for some more defensive creativity ... if you don't want your big man trying to run out to the 3pt line then back all the way to protect the paint, why not play some zone variation?

They sure work well against us ... especially when the other team has a scrappy/pesky perimeter defender.

some reps at it for future sake could happen, but they really cannot be that interested in doing what it takes to play winning basketball suddenly just because of this move


I hope this move was intended as at least a minimal course correction, so they can end the season feeling better going in to next season with a better idea of what they got than say a 30-game losing streak, players in revolt, demands for the coach and GM to be fired, and everyone angling to get out off the team.

But any coach with team in the playoffs that still features a traditional big should be scheming what they're going to do when they face one of the small ball teams. Hoping the 3's don't fall can work ... but it's not exactly a strategy,
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#58 » by Revenged25 » Fri Feb 7, 2020 9:18 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The time seems ripe for some more defensive creativity ... if you don't want your big man trying to run out to the 3pt line then back all the way to protect the paint, why not play some zone variation?

They sure work well against us ... especially when the other team has a scrappy/pesky perimeter defender.

some reps at it for future sake could happen, but they really cannot be that interested in doing what it takes to play winning basketball suddenly just because of this move


I hope this move was intended as at least a minimal course correction, so they can end the season feeling better going in to next season with a better idea of what they got than say a 30-game losing streak, players in revolt, demands for the coach and GM to be fired, and everyone angling to get out off the team.

But any coach with team in the playoffs that still features a traditional big should be scheming what they're going to do when they face one of the small ball teams. Hoping the 3's don't fall can work ... but it's not exactly a strategy,


I would assume the best way to combat that would be playing a zone defense that aggressively defends the 3 pt line with 4 guys and has Drummond sitting back for rebounds and altering shots if they drive by the defender from the 3pt line. Then on offense you utilize the massive match-up difference in the post with Drummond and if teams start trying to take that away then Drummond would have 3-4 shooters to pass back out to. At least that's how I would envision it.
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#59 » by Stillwater » Fri Feb 7, 2020 10:43 pm

To some degree I really think this was a planned deal and they had expected to deal TT but opted not to also take on salary to move him for meh draft assets because this draft is considered 2013 bad but I think it will be better than that myself. Not much but better.
Having both one having a po and one unrestricted
Is not that big a deal...they could theoretically have neither this time next season just like one of the guards could easily be gone too
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Re: Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho) 

Post#60 » by cavs4872 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:06 am

This Andre Drummond rental is giving me Baron Davis flashbacks.

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