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They better not sign him to a big number this summer or I'm done with this team.

Why? He provides rim protection and would provide Love the first rim protector he's ever played with. Will also help with us having a smaller backcourt, something Portland was very smart about doing was finding a good defensive big for when their guards were beat.

Plus we had plenty of money for next season. If he opts in, who cares we weren't spending it on anyone anyways. If he doesn't, offer him a deal with an AAV of 18-22/yr and call it a day if he decides to walk. Only problem I can see is that this actually makes the Cavs a better team so could mean they lose out on better draft odds/pick altogether.

Revenged25 wrote:Why? He provides rim protection and would provide Love the first rim protector he's ever played with. Will also help with us having a smaller backcourt, something Portland was very smart about doing was finding a good defensive big for when their guards were beat.

Plus we had plenty of money for next season. If he opts in, who cares we weren't spending it on anyone anyways. If he doesn't, offer him a deal with an AAV of 18-22/yr and call it a day if he decides to walk. Only problem I can see is that this actually makes the Cavs a better team so could mean they lose out on better draft odds/pick altogether.

Henson averaged 1.5 blocks in 14 mpg. Drummond average 1.7 blocks in 34 mpg. He is not a good defender. I really hope the Cavs take a good hard look at his flaws before offering him any deal.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Why? He provides rim protection and would provide Love the first rim protector he's ever played with. Will also help with us having a smaller backcourt, something Portland was very smart about doing was finding a good defensive big for when their guards were beat.

Plus we had plenty of money for next season. If he opts in, who cares we weren't spending it on anyone anyways. If he doesn't, offer him a deal with an AAV of 18-22/yr and call it a day if he decides to walk. Only problem I can see is that this actually makes the Cavs a better team so could mean they lose out on better draft odds/pick altogether.

Henson averaged 1.5 blocks in 14 mpg. Drummond average 1.7 blocks in 34 mpg. He is not a good defender. I really hope the Cavs take a good hard look at his flaws before offering him any deal.

Trade Machine says Detroit is not -7 wins worse after this trade..... And Cavs are -16 wins worse after this trade.

Captain Kirk said he didn't believe in a no win scenario. Ladies and Gentlemen, here it is.... A no win scenario.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Why? He provides rim protection and would provide Love the first rim protector he's ever played with. Will also help with us having a smaller backcourt, something Portland was very smart about doing was finding a good defensive big for when their guards were beat.

Plus we had plenty of money for next season. If he opts in, who cares we weren't spending it on anyone anyways. If he doesn't, offer him a deal with an AAV of 18-22/yr and call it a day if he decides to walk. Only problem I can see is that this actually makes the Cavs a better team so could mean they lose out on better draft odds/pick altogether.

Henson averaged 1.5 blocks in 14 mpg. Drummond average 1.7 blocks in 34 mpg. He is not a good defender. I really hope the Cavs take a good hard look at his flaws before offering him any deal.

Trade Machine says Detroit is now -7 wins worse after this trade..... And Cavs are -16 wins worse after this trade.

Captain Kirk said he didn't believe in a no win scenario. Ladies and Gentlemen, here it is.... A no win scenario.

c

SamFlow wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Why? He provides rim protection and would provide Love the first rim protector he's ever played with. Will also help with us having a smaller backcourt, something Portland was very smart about doing was finding a good defensive big for when their guards were beat.

Plus we had plenty of money for next season. If he opts in, who cares we weren't spending it on anyone anyways. If he doesn't, offer him a deal with an AAV of 18-22/yr and call it a day if he decides to walk. Only problem I can see is that this actually makes the Cavs a better team so could mean they lose out on better draft odds/pick altogether.

Henson averaged 1.5 blocks in 14 mpg. Drummond average 1.7 blocks in 34 mpg. He is not a good defender. I really hope the Cavs take a good hard look at his flaws before offering him any deal.

Trade Machine says Detroit is now -7 wins worse after this trade..... And Cavs are -16 wins worse after this trade.

Captain Kirk said he didn't believe in a no win scenario. Ladies and Gentlemen, here it is.... A no win scenario.

I mean the best thing that can be said about Drummond is that he's an actual threat to score from the 5 in a way that no one else on the roster was. I'm fine if this is an opt-in and audition trade. If it's here's all the money we saved by not paying TT trade, I'm going to be ill.

What the **** hahaha

Exum-Gobert pnr was fantastic in Utah (in the limited mins they player)

Hopefully Drummond can be the finisher for exum..... though i may be the only colonist on Exum island

I would have liked the rental aspect even more had they been able to get a deal done sending TT out for a draft asset, but clearly no deal could be agreed a pon so unless TT rejects the buyout option and takes a long vacation looking to a S&T this summer I can't imagine them coexisting at all when one gets the nod over the other with both wanting to get paid.

Eh this is fine. Got Drummond for a second, why not?

I really better not end up hearing that a team like Dallas offered that GS 2nd for TT and we passed. The idea that there's a first waiting out there for TT in a S&T scenario, on the contract he wants, is delusional. Also, if you ask me which of Drummond, TT or Henson (on a bargain contract) were the best options going forward at center, I think I'm taking the latter. Both TT and Drummond are vastly overrated on the defensive end.

Drummond at least is a legitimate offensive threat but I hope that Sexton and Garland have their medical insurance paid up because if they start freezing him out, there's going to be some furniture moving in the locker room. Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein center. Like does our F.O. think through these issues or are we just evaluating value in a vacuum?

The idea of leveraging Drummond and TT against each other this summer strikes me as LOL dumb. Pitting those two together in that situation seems like a recipe for great locker room chemistry for the rest of the year. The only leverage you should need is we think you're worth around the MLE, we think that's where the center market is going for non-superstar centers, and if we're wrong, let some poorly managed team prove us wrong.

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jbk1234 wrote:I really better not end up hearing that a team like Dallas offered that GS 2nd for TT and we passed. The idea that there's a first waiting out there for TT in a S&T scenario, on the contract he wants, is delusional. Also, if you ask me which of Drummond, TT or Henson (on a bargain contract) were the best options going forward at center, I think I'm taking the latter. Both TT and Drummond are vastly overrated on the defensive end.

Drummond at least is a legitimate offensive threat but I hope that Sexton and Garland have their medical insurance paid up because if they start freezing him out, there's going to be some furniture moving in the locker room. Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein center. Like does our F.O. think through these issues or are we just evaluating value in a vacuum?

The idea of leveraging Drummond and TT against each other this summer strikes me as LOL dumb. Pitting those two together in that situation seems like a recipe for great locker room chemistry for the rest of the year. The only leverage you should need is we think you're worth around the MLE, we think that's where the center market is going for non-superstar centers, and if we're wrong, let some poorly managed team prove us wrong.

I don't think Andre has any sort of a rep as a locker-room cancer, and worst case both he and TT just have to ride out the season, so should be no big whooop for them. The real question is does this move make Kevin any happier?

Also, if Drummond was one of our free-agent targets this Summer, this is a great way for both sides to evaluate each other.

One problem with Tristan is that he was both clogging up the middle AND not finishing well on those inside passes. Drummond will make a great target for everyone and that will encourage everyone to pass more. As for defense, he's clearly an upgrade as far as a physical presence in the paint. He will help our guards.

So while he's not an ideal Beilein big, he should at least give us a preview of what a bigger C who gives us a better inside presence will do for the team. Interesting info going in to this next draft.

And if it actually works out?

We can forgo worrying about drafting a big like Wiseman, for a more proven wing. I suppose we could draft him just for development purposes, but that would be a luxury. Drummond is basically one possible outcome of what you get when you draft a young/raw 7 footer with a lot of question marks and develop him for 5 or 6 years.

Tristan best attribute is his motor and ability to switch on D, and all of that seems compromised with him starting and playing through an 82 game grind against C's when he's really a PF. If he would accept that? Maybe he has a future with the team.

What's kind of cool is teams kept telling the Cavs that they didn't want to give up anything for TT or Kevin, and instead of caving, the Cavs instead figured ... hmm ... where can we get a new big man for nothing? And they found one.

Andre's biggest problem since College has been focus & motivation. When he feels like it, he's an All-Star caliber player. When he plays with the right lineups he's been very effective. But he's a good kid, and I think he'll get along well enough with other players and fans.

He's about the right age to mature in to a professional and stop "drifting".

We shall see ...

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:I really better not end up hearing that a team like Dallas offered that GS 2nd for TT and we passed. The idea that there's a first waiting out there for TT in a S&T scenario, on the contract he wants, is delusional. Also, if you ask me which of Drummond, TT or Henson (on a bargain contract) were the best options going forward at center, I think I'm taking the latter. Both TT and Drummond are vastly overrated on the defensive end.

Drummond at least is a legitimate offensive threat but I hope that Sexton and Garland have their medical insurance paid up because if they start freezing him out, there's going to be some furniture moving in the locker room. Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein center. Like does our F.O. think through these issues or are we just evaluating value in a vacuum?

The idea of leveraging Drummond and TT against each other this summer strikes me as LOL dumb. Pitting those two together in that situation seems like a recipe for great locker room chemistry for the rest of the year. The only leverage you should need is we think you're worth around the MLE, we think that's where the center market is going for non-superstar centers, and if we're wrong, let some poorly managed team prove us wrong.

I don't think Andre has any sort of a rep as a locker-room cancer, and worst case both he and TT just have to ride out the season, so should be no big whooop for them. The real question is does this move make Kevin any happier?

Also, if Drummond was one of our free-agent targets this Summer, this is a great way for both sides to evaluate each other.

One problem with Tristan is that he was both clogging up the middle AND not finishing well on those inside passes. Drummond will make a great target for everyone and that will encourage everyone to pass more. As for defense, he's clearly an upgrade as far as a physical presence in the paint. He will help our guards.

So while he's not an ideal Beilein big, he should at least give us a preview of what a bigger C who gives us a better inside presence will do for the team. Interesting info going in to this next draft.

And if it actually works out?

We can forgo worrying about drafting a big like Wiseman, for a more proven wing. I suppose we could draft him just for development purposes, but that would be a luxury. Drummond is basically one possible outcome of what you get when you draft a young/raw 7 footer with a lot of question marks and develop him for 5 or 6 years.

Tristan best attribute is his motor and ability to switch on D, and all of that seems compromised with him starting and playing through an 82 game grind against C's when he's really a PF. If he would accept that? Maybe he has a future with the team.

What's kind of cool is teams kept telling the Cavs that they didn't want to give up anything for TT or Kevin, and instead of caving, the Cavs instead figured ... hmm ... where can we get a new big man for nothing? And they found one.

Andre's biggest problem since College has been focus & motivation. When he feels like it, he's an All-Star caliber player. When he plays with the right lineups he's been very effective. But he's a good kid, and I think he'll get along well enough with other players and fans.

He's about the right age to mature in to a professional and stop "drifting".

We shall see ...

If this is a rental, I can live with it. Especially if he opts in and teams call us on him this summer.

But lets be clear, two of the best games the Cavs as a team have played this season have been the last two games when Nance started in place of TT. I don't believe that's a coincidence. The best three big men on the roster were Love, Nance, and Henson. They all offer skill sets that TT does not and that are really important skill sets in the modern NBA. Does the front office see that?

TT isn't by any means a PF. He can't even shoot an elbow jumper. He's an undersized, and limited, center. The list of teams who would've offered him the contract he's currently playing on, when he signed it, is non-existent. That's not speculation, that's a fact. He went through the entire summer as a RFA without forcing the Cavs to match an offer sheet because no one presented him with an offer sheet he willing to sign. His current expectations as they pertain to his next contract aren't merely off, they're delusional. He has very limited trade value due to that. The front office needs to be able to recognize that reality.

Why do you think we just got Drummond for a song? We certainly weren't the only team to kick the tires on him. The Hawks, Bulls, Knicks and Hornets were all rumored to have interest. No one wants to pay him what he thinks he's worth. If we said what the heck, these guys are expiring anyway, we don't care if he opts in, okay I get that. But, I hope we're opening to moving him because if he's sticking around and taking a disproportionate number of shots in a contract year trying to show everybody how good he is next season, then you've played yourself, the same way, two seasons in a row.

In any event, we now have two contract-year centers, with vastly inflated views of their worth, on the same, young, team that's already had chemistry issues. Did the front office consider that?

I just see a lot of ways this could wrong and few ways this could work out for the best.

Bottom line is they added a paint presence with a skill set they were lacking. Henson was definitely the higher iq defender but Drummond is an elite athlete and pick and roll monster that can run with Sexton Cedi and KPJ and gives them an easy target when driving into the trees ...not to mention should open up Garlands game some.
As far as defense he can easily handle defending on switches out to the 3 and despite not having great stats with blocks impacts outcomes just by being there ...a lot.

Stillwater wrote:Bottom line is they added a paint presence with a skill set they were lacking. Henson was definitely the higher iq defender but Drummond is an elite athlete and pick and roll monster that can run with Sexton Cedi and KPJ and gives them an easy target when driving into the trees ...not to mention should open up Garlands game some.
As far as defense he can easily handle defending on switches out to the 3 and despite not having great stats with blocks impacts outcomes just by being there ...a lot.

Drummond is not an elite athlete. He's big and strong. They're not the same thing. Elite athletes don't let TT drop 31 on them. He's a PNR monster on one end (which again was an offense we were trying to move away from) and he's a PNR liability on the other end.

Also, if everything works just great, we're two thirds of the way through the season and have the second worst record in the league. Why are we beefing up the roster and trying to win now?

It seems like we're just lurching from one direction to the other without thinking through what comes next and that's a real serious problem in a rebuild.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:I really better not end up hearing that a team like Dallas offered that GS 2nd for TT and we passed. The idea that there's a first waiting out there for TT in a S&T scenario, on the contract he wants, is delusional. Also, if you ask me which of Drummond, TT or Henson (on a bargain contract) were the best options going forward at center, I think I'm taking the latter. Both TT and Drummond are vastly overrated on the defensive end.

Drummond at least is a legitimate offensive threat but I hope that Sexton and Garland have their medical insurance paid up because if they start freezing him out, there's going to be some furniture moving in the locker room. Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein center. Like does our F.O. think through these issues or are we just evaluating value in a vacuum?

The idea of leveraging Drummond and TT against each other this summer strikes me as LOL dumb. Pitting those two together in that situation seems like a recipe for great locker room chemistry for the rest of the year. The only leverage you should need is we think you're worth around the MLE, we think that's where the center market is going for non-superstar centers, and if we're wrong, let some poorly managed team prove us wrong.

I don't think Andre has any sort of a rep as a locker-room cancer, and worst case both he and TT just have to ride out the season, so should be no big whooop for them. The real question is does this move make Kevin any happier?

Also, if Drummond was one of our free-agent targets this Summer, this is a great way for both sides to evaluate each other.

One problem with Tristan is that he was both clogging up the middle AND not finishing well on those inside passes. Drummond will make a great target for everyone and that will encourage everyone to pass more. As for defense, he's clearly an upgrade as far as a physical presence in the paint. He will help our guards.

So while he's not an ideal Beilein big, he should at least give us a preview of what a bigger C who gives us a better inside presence will do for the team. Interesting info going in to this next draft.

And if it actually works out?

We can forgo worrying about drafting a big like Wiseman, for a more proven wing. I suppose we could draft him just for development purposes, but that would be a luxury. Drummond is basically one possible outcome of what you get when you draft a young/raw 7 footer with a lot of question marks and develop him for 5 or 6 years.

Tristan best attribute is his motor and ability to switch on D, and all of that seems compromised with him starting and playing through an 82 game grind against C's when he's really a PF. If he would accept that? Maybe he has a future with the team.

What's kind of cool is teams kept telling the Cavs that they didn't want to give up anything for TT or Kevin, and instead of caving, the Cavs instead figured ... hmm ... where can we get a new big man for nothing? And they found one.

Andre's biggest problem since College has been focus & motivation. When he feels like it, he's an All-Star caliber player. When he plays with the right lineups he's been very effective. But he's a good kid, and I think he'll get along well enough with other players and fans.

He's about the right age to mature in to a professional and stop "drifting".

We shall see ...

If this is a rental, I can live with it. Especially if he opts in and teams call us on him this summer.

But lets be clear, two of the best games the Cavs as a team have played this season have been the last two games when Nance started in place of TT. I don't believe that's a coincidence. The best three big men on the roster were Love, Nance, and Henson. They all offer skill sets that TT does not and that are really important skill sets in the modern NBA. Does the front office see that?

TT isn't by any means a PF. He can't even shoot an elbow jumper. He's an undersized, and limited, center. The list of teams who would've offered him the contract he's currently playing on, when he signed it, is non-existent. That's not speculation, that's a fact. He went through the entire summer as a RFA without forcing the Cavs to match an offer sheet because no one presented him with an offer sheet he willing to sign. His current expectations as they pertain to his next contract aren't merely off, they're delusional. He has very limited trade value due to that. The front office needs to be able to recognize that reality.

Why do you think we just got Drummond for a song? We certainly weren't the only team to kick the tires on him. The Hawks, Bulls, Knicks and Hornets were all rumored to have interest. No one wants to pay him what he thinks he's worth. If we said what the heck, these guys are expiring anyway, we don't care if he opts in, okay I get that. But, I hope we're opening to moving him because if he's sticking around and taking a disproportionate number of shots in a contract year trying to show everybody how good he is next season, then you've played yourself, the same way, two seasons in a row.

In any event, we now have two contract-year centers, with vastly inflated views of their worth, on the same, young, team that's already had chemistry issues. Did the front office consider that?

I just see a lot of ways this could wrong and few ways this could work out for the best.

If it's a lease-to-buy that works out, I think you'll find a way to live with it too.

Of course we're talking about the Cavs and they have a knack for turning good situations sour, but clearly you don't really mean what you said. There's no way you could last as a fan of this team as long as you have if you actually abandoned them over a mistake, lol.

As for Tristan, the bottom line is his game doesn't hold up banging with starting C's, and if he's going to start at PF he needs to play with a C who can shoot AND protect the rim. We got half of that right when we traded for Spencer Hawes way back in '13/'14. But in this day and age, if you had an amazing C who can stretch the floor and protect the rim ... surely you'd play 5 out and wreck the league.

If TT can find a team that will pay him starters money, he will surely be on his way. If he's smart, he won't burn any bridges, though. A "fall back plan" as a backup is still going to pay him a whole lot of millions.

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:Bottom line is they added a paint presence with a skill set they were lacking. Henson was definitely the higher iq defender but Drummond is an elite athlete and pick and roll monster that can run with Sexton Cedi and KPJ and gives them an easy target when driving into the trees ...not to mention should open up Garlands game some.
As far as defense he can easily handle defending on switches out to the 3 and despite not having great stats with blocks impacts outcomes just by being there ...a lot.

Drummond is not an elite athlete. He's big and strong. They're not the same thing. Elite athletes don't let TT drop 31 on them. He's a PNR monster on one end (which again was an offense we were trying to move away from) and he's a PNR liability on the other end.

Also, if everything works just great, we're two thirds of the way through the season and have the second worst record in the league. Why are we beefing up the roster and trying to win now?

It seems like we're just lurching from one direction to the other without thinking through what comes next and that's a real serious problem in a rebuild.

The team is floundering badly on the verge of a full out veteran revolt. We have a chance to shake that up, maybe make Kevin happy, and check-out exactly the kind of player that might consider signing with us as a free-agent. So, why not?

I like Larry too, but he's not big enough to start at C on a regular basis either. Henson has terrific length, but gets pushed around. I mean ... he was measured at 6'9" 219lbs ... that's a 4lbs heavier than Cedi and 3lbs heavier than Porter Jr.

Perplexing move imo. Not the modern NBA/JB type of big. No moves to acquire any future assets. No idea if he will opt in/out, If a s&t would be available after the season, no TT trade means that they will be sharing minutes in a contract year for TT and maybe Drummond so that isn't optimal, and finally if Drummond does fit in well, helps right the ship and gets enough wins to get the 11th pick in the draft we lose our pick!
This seems like a Dan Gilbert type of move, in that he is in love with anything Michigan, and doesn't seem to have the future in mind with some of his ideas/rants. Why in the world would Altman make this type of move with everything mentioned above? So the team isn't so severely undersized now, so what? Not moving TT because someone wouldn't offer a first? Again, so what? I guess there is a possibility that we could s&t him as well but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
I have been disappointed with the effort and rotations of this team for a while with the understanding that we are tanking to keep the pick, but I can't find any reason to root for substantial improvement at this point of the season. If we lose the pick and Drummond opts out it is a total disaster. I spoke to a co-worker in our Detroit office today shortly after the trade, and he is happy as can be that they traded Drummond, he said " his stats are empty stats, he loafs frequently, his body language is terrible", and that he has been hoping they would trade him for the last two years. Then he said, "don't worry you will see". Not too promising, so hopefully this move won't translate into too many wins this season.

gflem wrote:Perplexing move imo. Not the modern NBA/JB type of big. No moves to acquire any future assets. No idea if he will opt in/out, If a s&t would be available after the season, no TT trade means that they will be sharing minutes in a contract year for TT and maybe Drummond so that isn't optimal, and finally if Drummond does fit in well, helps right the ship and gets enough wins to get the 11th pick in the draft we lose our pick!
This seems like a Dan Gilbert type of move, in that he is in love with anything Michigan, and doesn't seem to have the future in mind with some of his ideas/rants. Why in the world would Altman make this type of move with everything mentioned above? So the team isn't so severely undersized now, so what? Not moving TT because someone wouldn't offer a first? Again, so what? I guess there is a possibility that we could s&t him as well but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
I have been disappointed with the effort and rotations of this team for a while with the understanding that we are tanking to keep the pick, but I can't find any reason to root for substantial improvement at this point of the season. If we lose the pick and Drummond opts out it is a total disaster. I spoke to a co-worker in our Detroit office today shortly after the trade, and he is happy as can be that they traded Drummond, he said " his stats are empty stats, he loafs frequently, his body language is terrible", and that he has been hoping they would trade him for the last two years. Then he said, "don't worry you will see". Not too promising, so hopefully this move won't translate into too many wins this season.

The bolded is the only part I'm not worried about. But we could be picking 6-10 instead of 1-5.