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If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan

Moderator: jbk1234

who is the coach after the break?

Beilein
2
25%
JBB
5
63%
other
1
13%
 
Total votes: 8

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If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#1 » by Stillwater » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:44 am

Sounds like it could be external family struggles diverting his ability to stay focused on this tough rebuilding timeline but regardless of why who replaces him if he leaves right now?
Obviously could just finish season with an interim to further facilitate the tank but I don't see that helping the development either.
If it's the front office is shifting direction after acquired Andre and thinking they can be a winning team then the ownership group is going to have to change more than the coaches...
https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/cleveland-cavaliers-john-beilein-discussing-future-as-head-coach.html?outputType=amp
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#2 » by Stillwater » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:06 am

Another concern or maybe it's the plan to build up KLove trade value is bickerstaffs fixation on not playing or developing young players almost the opposite of Beilein.
Here's a clipped article when he was in Memphis
https://bealestreetbears.com/2019/04/26/memphis-grizzlies-cleveland-j-b-bickerstaff/3/
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#3 » by JonFromVA » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:32 am

Well presumably Bickerstaff will be told that player development comes first ... whether he's any good at it is another matter. Maybe Beilein just needs a break, though.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#4 » by Stillwater » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:52 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Well presumably Bickerstaff will be told that player development comes first ... whether he's any good at it is another matter. Maybe Beilein just needs a break, though.

Maybe...but it could also be despite the struggles Beilein has had getting his team to execute that his true motivation is the problems away from his job. He's a workaholic apparently and blames himself for his family problems. Like most of us who get so devoted to doing our craft we can easily forget the most important realities.
Bickerstaff is either a changed man or his position is also up for grabs if they know what's good for this roster developing
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#5 » by Stillwater » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:12 pm

poll added
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#6 » by JonFromVA » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:53 pm

I voted Beilein just because I dislike the rumor driven media reporting. If they gave even one legit source or reason...
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#7 » by jbk1234 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:54 pm

To me, the more important question is who is hired after the season. Clearly, Beilein's approach of not correcting errors in-game has not lead to better development.

I'd like to sign a couple of replacement level guards who are at least serviceable defenders. It's one thing to give guys unearned minutes, but the bench should always be available as a motivational tool.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#8 » by Stillwater » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:29 pm

I think the timing is odd from an org perspective given they just added a true center that should help them win some games and have given Beilein some help for developing the 2 guards and for him to have some success using NBA sets that at least resemble a progressing team in the last couple months ...unless they already have given up on Beilein and the rebuild working out and are feeling unreasonable pressure from ownership to start winning instead of developing young players through high reps and known tanking.

I mean the vets we have left are who? Love TT Drummond and I guess Delly? there are not enough vets to play only vets so Bickerstaff will have to use young players if he takes over anyway and so replacing Beilein in the middle of the damn season makes little sense too me.
I think if he doesn't finish the season then its more likely something he has to deal with personally outside of the NBA that is the driver here and not something starting from the org at least not as a result of the loss column which was a given in the current state of the roster anyway.
Did this org really think they were going to be a 500 team or something? are they dumb enough to think JBB can take who they have right now and flip the script?
they are all on serious drugs if they stop the rebuild right now and give up on the one good coach they have had in the last 6.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#9 » by gflem » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:06 am

What it says to me is that an organization can't just play the young players at the expense of winning games and expect veteran players still in their prime to be happy about it. It says that putting a 66 year old coach, no matter how successful in college, into the above described situation with NO NBA experience is a recipe for disaster.
It says the GM was probably told by ownership that the team was hiring this coach and that his (GM) job was to make it work. It says that vets who have won a ring aren't going to buy into the college "rah, rah, go team" mentality for very long. Especially when losing the way this team is.
As for who's in, obviously JB Bickerstaff, he was brought in to replace Beilein at some point in the future imo, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets at least a couple of years contract as the "permanent" coach.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#10 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:19 am

gflem wrote:What it says to me is that an organization can't just play the young players at the expense of winning games and expect veteran players still in their prime to be happy about it. It says that putting a 66 year old coach, no matter how successful in college, into the above described situation with NO NBA experience is a recipe for disaster.
It says the GM was probably told by ownership that the team was hiring this coach and that his (GM) job was to make it work. It says that vets who have won a ring aren't going to buy into the college "rah, rah, go team" mentality for very long. Especially when losing the way this team is.
As for who's in, obviously JB Bickerstaff, he was brought in to replace Beilein at some point in the future imo, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets at least a couple of years contract as the "permanent" coach.

you do realize it has been nothing like that at all right? the raa raa comment.
also there are no disgruntled vets besides Love at this point that the org has to cater too and even he can just fake an injury the rest of the season sitting around the pool with the Honeys.
the key problem Beilein has faced is having to pretend when talking to the press that they are trying to win... yet in any every shape and form are tanking and he is clearly being told to develop young players as priority 1 and if possible do so playing them along side the vets that are good enough to help them develop and discard the vets who want no part of helping them and want to move on. Love is the exception because he is too good for this roster wants out but is too overpaid to get moved. TT also is a bit of a problem because Beilein gave him a ton of freedom early in the season and TT looked phenomenal then everything changed overnight clearly another tanking move by the front office and now trading for Drummond looks like the opposite of player development except it is going to help player development even more in reality because Drummond has consistently been what TT was to start this season basically the last couple seasons.
JBB will likely be the interim and should not but possibly could get a contract. But he is not historically the right man at all for player development even if you think Beilein also isn't the right guy and if anything could mean this org is more interested in mediocre fighting for 8th seed type roster tweaking with no good options each year via the draft and little chance of getting any elite players in fa
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:32 am

gflem wrote:What it says to me is that an organization can't just play the young players at the expense of winning games and expect veteran players still in their prime to be happy about it. It says that putting a 66 year old coach, no matter how successful in college, into the above described situation with NO NBA experience is a recipe for disaster.
It says the GM was probably told by ownership that the team was hiring this coach and that his (GM) job was to make it work. It says that vets who have won a ring aren't going to buy into the college "rah, rah, go team" mentality for very long. Especially when losing the way this team is.
As for who's in, obviously JB Bickerstaff, he was brought in to replace Beilein at some point in the future imo, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets at least a couple of years contract as the "permanent" coach.
Once I read that Bickerstaff was in charge of the rotations, I soured on him. From the article it sounds like Beilein is unhappy. Lots of college coaches don't like the transition. He abandoned his offense early on and genuinely felt like there wasn't enough time to teach young players given the NBA schedule.

I don't know what that portends for a team relying heavily on young players tbh.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#12 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:39 am

Stillwater wrote:
gflem wrote:What it says to me is that an organization can't just play the young players at the expense of winning games and expect veteran players still in their prime to be happy about it. It says that putting a 66 year old coach, no matter how successful in college, into the above described situation with NO NBA experience is a recipe for disaster.
It says the GM was probably told by ownership that the team was hiring this coach and that his (GM) job was to make it work. It says that vets who have won a ring aren't going to buy into the college "rah, rah, go team" mentality for very long. Especially when losing the way this team is.
As for who's in, obviously JB Bickerstaff, he was brought in to replace Beilein at some point in the future imo, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets at least a couple of years contract as the "permanent" coach.

you do realize it has been nothing like that at all right? the raa raa comment.
also there are no disgruntled vets besides Love at this point that the org has to cater too and even he can just fake an injury the rest of the season sitting around the pool with the Honeys.
the key problem Beilein has faced is having to pretend when talking to the press that they are trying to win... yet in any every shape and form are tanking and he is clearly being told to develop young players as priority 1 and if possible do so playing them along side the vets that are good enough to help them develop and discard the vets who want no part of helping them and want to move on. Love is the exception because he is too good for this roster wants out but is too overpaid to get moved. TT also is a bit of a problem because Beilein gave him a ton of freedom early in the season and TT looked phenomenal then everything changed overnight clearly another tanking move by the front office and now trading for Drummond looks like the opposite of player development except it is going to help player development even more in reality because Drummond has consistently been what TT was to start this season basically the last couple seasons.
JBB will likely be the interim and should not but possibly could get a contract. But he is not historically the right man at all for player development even if you think Beilein also isn't the right guy and if anything could mean this org is more interested in mediocre fighting for 8th seed type roster tweaking with no good options each year via the draft and little chance of getting any elite players in fa
I don't know where you're getting that Love is the only disgruntled vet. Every article that's been written about static with Beilein has stated there were multiple vets who were unhappy. There was clearly too much rah, rah bs while the wheels were coming off with the team midseason. You can call it tanking if it makes you feel better but no team plans on getting blown out on a nightly basis or having basic team concepts abandoned. None of that was part of the plan.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#13 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:49 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
gflem wrote:What it says to me is that an organization can't just play the young players at the expense of winning games and expect veteran players still in their prime to be happy about it. It says that putting a 66 year old coach, no matter how successful in college, into the above described situation with NO NBA experience is a recipe for disaster.
It says the GM was probably told by ownership that the team was hiring this coach and that his (GM) job was to make it work. It says that vets who have won a ring aren't going to buy into the college "rah, rah, go team" mentality for very long. Especially when losing the way this team is.
As for who's in, obviously JB Bickerstaff, he was brought in to replace Beilein at some point in the future imo, and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets at least a couple of years contract as the "permanent" coach.

you do realize it has been nothing like that at all right? the raa raa comment.
also there are no disgruntled vets besides Love at this point that the org has to cater too and even he can just fake an injury the rest of the season sitting around the pool with the Honeys.
the key problem Beilein has faced is having to pretend when talking to the press that they are trying to win... yet in any every shape and form are tanking and he is clearly being told to develop young players as priority 1 and if possible do so playing them along side the vets that are good enough to help them develop and discard the vets who want no part of helping them and want to move on. Love is the exception because he is too good for this roster wants out but is too overpaid to get moved. TT also is a bit of a problem because Beilein gave him a ton of freedom early in the season and TT looked phenomenal then everything changed overnight clearly another tanking move by the front office and now trading for Drummond looks like the opposite of player development except it is going to help player development even more in reality because Drummond has consistently been what TT was to start this season basically the last couple seasons.
JBB will likely be the interim and should not but possibly could get a contract. But he is not historically the right man at all for player development even if you think Beilein also isn't the right guy and if anything could mean this org is more interested in mediocre fighting for 8th seed type roster tweaking with no good options each year via the draft and little chance of getting any elite players in fa
I don't know where you're getting that Love is the only disgruntled vet. Every article that's been written about static with Beilein has stated there were multiple vets who were unhappy. There was clearly to much rah, rah bs while the wheels were coming off with team midseason. You can call it tanking if it makes you feel better but no team plans on getting blown out on a nightly basis or having basic team concepts abandoned. None of that was part of the plan.

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Love is the only vet left besides maybe TT that would have been pushing for bikerstaff and his vet preference and desire to win.
When you are in full developing mode you are tanking and should absolutely expect bad losses maybe it's becoming too much too take or like you say they were dumb enough to think it wouldn't be as bad. Garland has been basically a bust is first and foremost the biggest issue given he was a starter all season and is the pg
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#14 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:05 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:you do realize it has been nothing like that at all right? the raa raa comment.
also there are no disgruntled vets besides Love at this point that the org has to cater too and even he can just fake an injury the rest of the season sitting around the pool with the Honeys.
the key problem Beilein has faced is having to pretend when talking to the press that they are trying to win... yet in any every shape and form are tanking and he is clearly being told to develop young players as priority 1 and if possible do so playing them along side the vets that are good enough to help them develop and discard the vets who want no part of helping them and want to move on. Love is the exception because he is too good for this roster wants out but is too overpaid to get moved. TT also is a bit of a problem because Beilein gave him a ton of freedom early in the season and TT looked phenomenal then everything changed overnight clearly another tanking move by the front office and now trading for Drummond looks like the opposite of player development except it is going to help player development even more in reality because Drummond has consistently been what TT was to start this season basically the last couple seasons.
JBB will likely be the interim and should not but possibly could get a contract. But he is not historically the right man at all for player development even if you think Beilein also isn't the right guy and if anything could mean this org is more interested in mediocre fighting for 8th seed type roster tweaking with no good options each year via the draft and little chance of getting any elite players in fa
I don't know where you're getting that Love is the only disgruntled vet. Every article that's been written about static with Beilein has stated there were multiple vets who were unhappy. There was clearly to much rah, rah bs while the wheels were coming off with team midseason. You can call it tanking if it makes you feel better but no team plans on getting blown out on a nightly basis or having basic team concepts abandoned. None of that was part of the plan.

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Love is the only vet left besides maybe TT that would have been pushing for bikerstaff and his vet preference and desire to win.
When you are in full developing mode you are tanking and should absolutely expect bad losses maybe it's becoming too much too take or like you say they were dumb enough to think it wouldn't be as bad. Garland has been basically a bust is first and foremost the biggest issue given he was a starter all season and is the pg
Even Nance had had moments on the court where the frustration has boiled over. Garland not being ready to start. The Garland/Sexton pairing. Putrid PNR defense. Awful defense overall. A whole bunch of YOLO ball on offense. The inability to employ a team offense against a good defense. Take your pick.

I'm less concerned with things not working out than with the front office watching what was happening and convincing itself there was any actual development going on. Again, gifting minutes is one thing, but you have to be willing to pull them off the floor when regression occurs.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#15 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:15 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I don't know where you're getting that Love is the only disgruntled vet. Every article that's been written about static with Beilein has stated there were multiple vets who were unhappy. There was clearly to much rah, rah bs while the wheels were coming off with team midseason. You can call it tanking if it makes you feel better but no team plans on getting blown out on a nightly basis or having basic team concepts abandoned. None of that was part of the plan.

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Love is the only vet left besides maybe TT that would have been pushing for bikerstaff and his vet preference and desire to win.
When you are in full developing mode you are tanking and should absolutely expect bad losses maybe it's becoming too much too take or like you say they were dumb enough to think it wouldn't be as bad. Garland has been basically a bust is first and foremost the biggest issue given he was a starter all season and is the pg
Even Nance had had moments on the court where the frustration has boiled over. Garland not being ready to start. The Garland/Sexton pairing. Putrid PNR defense. Awful defense overall. A whole bunch of YOLO ball on offense. The inability to employ a team offense against a good defense. Take your pick.

I'm less concerned with things not working out than with the front office watching what was happening and convincing itself there was any actual development going on. Again, gifting minutes is one thing, but you have to be willing to pull them off the floor when regression occurs.

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Well too me a huge part of developing is learning what parts of each developing players game needs fixed and the only way to do that is playing them even when they don't deserve it and making them live with it instead of pulling them when they f up.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:48 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Love is the only vet left besides maybe TT that would have been pushing for bikerstaff and his vet preference and desire to win.
When you are in full developing mode you are tanking and should absolutely expect bad losses maybe it's becoming too much too take or like you say they were dumb enough to think it wouldn't be as bad. Garland has been basically a bust is first and foremost the biggest issue given he was a starter all season and is the pg
Even Nance had had moments on the court where the frustration has boiled over. Garland not being ready to start. The Garland/Sexton pairing. Putrid PNR defense. Awful defense overall. A whole bunch of YOLO ball on offense. The inability to employ a team offense against a good defense. Take your pick.

I'm less concerned with things not working out than with the front office watching what was happening and convincing itself there was any actual development going on. Again, gifting minutes is one thing, but you have to be willing to pull them off the floor when regression occurs.

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Well too me a huge part of developing is learning what parts of each developing players game needs fixed and the only way to do that is playing them even when they don't deserve it and making them live with it instead of pulling them when they f up.
I don't buy that players learn by allowing bad habits to go unchecked or allowing them to play outside of the team concept. I also don't see any evidence that these players are good enough to produce a winning team playing that way.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#17 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:39 am

^ The bad habits as you put it imo are in fact learned responses and yes there is merit in pulling any player not acknowledging their mistakes but there is also zero reason to believe they are not made fully aware of it and are in fact making adjustments regardless of if they are incapable of simply changing it like turning a page as opposed to erasing and rewriting the same one
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#18 » by gflem » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:16 am

Stillwater wrote:^ The bad habits as you put it imo are in fact learned responses and yes there is merit in pulling any player not acknowledging their mistakes but there is also zero reason to believe they are not made fully aware of it and are in fact making adjustments regardless of if they are incapable of simply changing it like turning a page as opposed to erasing and rewriting the same one

The bad habits you are talking about go away for a game or two and then come back against the better teams. The players involved have to be tuned in to become fully aware of their shortcomings, and have to believe in the coaching staff. The recent reports are that the team has tuned out Beilein, and the evidence is on the court on an almost nightly basis. We all know the team is tanking but as JBK says the players have to be held accountable, this is where ownership did the coaching staff no favors, in that the directive is to play the young guys regardless of performance. To me, this type of situation allows the players to tune out the coach and play YOLO ball without any reprecussions. Add in the fact that the coaching staff is staying with the mantra that they see good things, and improvement even in blowout losses and it likely becomes a joke in the locker room.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#19 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:07 pm

gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ The bad habits as you put it imo are in fact learned responses and yes there is merit in pulling any player not acknowledging their mistakes but there is also zero reason to believe they are not made fully aware of it and are in fact making adjustments regardless of if they are incapable of simply changing it like turning a page as opposed to erasing and rewriting the same one

The bad habits you are talking about go away for a game or two and then come back against the better teams. The players involved have to be tuned in to become fully aware of their shortcomings, and have to believe in the coaching staff. The recent reports are that the team has tuned out Beilein, and the evidence is on the court on an almost nightly basis. We all know the team is tanking but as JBK says the players have to be held accountable, this is where ownership did the coaching staff no favors, in that the directive is to play the young guys regardless of performance. To me, this type of situation allows the players to tune out the coach and play YOLO ball without any reprecussions. Add in the fact that the coaching staff is staying with the mantra that they see good things, and improvement even in blowout losses and it likely becomes a joke in the locker room.

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.
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jbk1234
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#20 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:31 pm

Stillwater wrote:
gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ The bad habits as you put it imo are in fact learned responses and yes there is merit in pulling any player not acknowledging their mistakes but there is also zero reason to believe they are not made fully aware of it and are in fact making adjustments regardless of if they are incapable of simply changing it like turning a page as opposed to erasing and rewriting the same one

The bad habits you are talking about go away for a game or two and then come back against the better teams. The players involved have to be tuned in to become fully aware of their shortcomings, and have to believe in the coaching staff. The recent reports are that the team has tuned out Beilein, and the evidence is on the court on an almost nightly basis. We all know the team is tanking but as JBK says the players have to be held accountable, this is where ownership did the coaching staff no favors, in that the directive is to play the young guys regardless of performance. To me, this type of situation allows the players to tune out the coach and play YOLO ball without any reprecussions. Add in the fact that the coaching staff is staying with the mantra that they see good things, and improvement even in blowout losses and it likely becomes a joke in the locker room.

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.


I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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