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If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan

Moderator: jbk1234

who is the coach after the break?

Beilein
2
25%
JBB
5
63%
other
1
13%
 
Total votes: 8

JonFromVA
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#41 » by JonFromVA » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:15 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I can easily see some of both going on ... to what extent? Yes, that's still conjecture unless we get further rumors or better yet confirmation.

If players who weren't buying in were traded for players who had either played for Beilein would be receptive to him - well - that would had sent a completely different signal. Trading for Drummond (like I said at the time) seemed to be a play to save Kevin Love. Not only because they share the same agent and have a connection, but because of how he could compliment Kevin and give us some veteran stability if Tristan signs elsewhere. It also gives Sexton and Garland some rim protection and a P&R target.

Andre improves our chances of winning games which would have made life less miserable for ... well, everybody; but I don't think that was enough for Beilein. He didn't want to just go through the motions. It seems he lost the locker-room and knew it.

What Andre's stance does is just encourage everybody to accelerate everything.

Beilein I'm sure would have been professional and finished out the season so the Cavs could make a clean transition this off-season and he'd collect his fully salary, but he made it clear things weren't working and he was done or at least likely was done.

With Andre making it clear (no doubt through his agent) that Beilein was a problem (after just days!!!) that just makes the decision to act now rather than wait very clear. The trick then became reaching an agreement with Beilein and Bickerstaff so they could have a sensible and affordable transition.

I mean, it's not like we invested much in to Drummond. We could just try to recoup some assets by agreeing to S&T him this Summer and just be done with him. But then we'd probably be looking to trade Kevin, and we'd have to strongly considering trading Sexton or Garland too to break up that back-court.

And while it can be argued that would still be the best course for the team, presumably that's not what the Cavs were hoping to accomplish or at least they weren't interested in having that decision forced on them.


I get that they share the same agent, but I really lose the thread when people argue that Drummond was brought in to help Love. I don't see them as a great pairing. Love doesn't strike me as having a low bbiq so hopefully he sees the same thing. Neither big man is a good PNR defender and they both have poor lateral quickness. Drummond's rim protection is vastly overrated. His block per minute rate is decidedly meh.

Offensively, Drummond's at his best when he tries to do less and sticks with what he's good at. He should not be trying to stretch the floor. He should not be screwing around with behind-the-back passes or excessive dribbling. Drummond should be setting picks, rolling to the hoop, crashing the boards, and posting up. That's it. Love is at his best when the floor is opened up and he's playing alongside more athletic big men like Nance who can offer some spacing but still presents enough of a threat to cut to the basket to keep the defense honest. Love's ideal pairing is a version of Nance who is several inches taller.

In order to have a Drummond/Love front court translate to wins, you'd have to fundamentally alter the team's approach. I'm talking about slowing the pace of the game down to a crawl and just starving the opponent of shots by killing them on the boards. That's not really conducive to developing young guards to play in the modern NBA, and if that's the plan, they'll need to start different guards than one currently on the roster (with the possible exception of Exum). I can't imagine that's the plan, but then again, nothing about this season has made sense thus far.

of course it has... when the goal is to lose and keep the lottery pick to add a legit 1st option. none of the schemes or in game rotations have been optimal to winning basketball in the majority of games all season, and if its true JBB was in charge of that aspect of it ( doubtful given his history of overplaying vets) then it wont be getting any better without Beilein anyway. Which is just fine with this org who places way too high of value on draft picks especially considering how many times they have got it all wrong.In the past I have actually hoped they would get a lesser pick so they wouldn't get a chance to take the overhyped guy I didn't like and boom they of course picked the guy I didn't like over several other options again last draft. but they redeemed themselves taking Windler and KPJ so I let it go.


Well, and it's not like Sekou is lighting up the league, either. It's just that the Pistons have taken it a lot slower with him and have had a quick trigger when he hasn't played well. They're not force feeding him minutes like we are Garland even though he actually has an NBA body/athleticism.

The player the Piston's has turned to at the moment to fill the vacuum left by Drummond isn't Sekou let alone Henson, it's a player I mentioned in a thread as a possible cheap UFA target this Summer: Christian Wood.

He might just play himself right out of that cheap category ...
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#42 » by Stillwater » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:42 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I get that they share the same agent, but I really lose the thread when people argue that Drummond was brought in to help Love. I don't see them as a great pairing. Love doesn't strike me as having a low bbiq so hopefully he sees the same thing. Neither big man is a good PNR defender and they both have poor lateral quickness. Drummond's rim protection is vastly overrated. His block per minute rate is decidedly meh.

Offensively, Drummond's at his best when he tries to do less and sticks with what he's good at. He should not be trying to stretch the floor. He should not be screwing around with behind-the-back passes or excessive dribbling. Drummond should be setting picks, rolling to the hoop, crashing the boards, and posting up. That's it. Love is at his best when the floor is opened up and he's playing alongside more athletic big men like Nance who can offer some spacing but still presents enough of a threat to cut to the basket to keep the defense honest. Love's ideal pairing is a version of Nance who is several inches taller.

In order to have a Drummond/Love front court translate to wins, you'd have to fundamentally alter the team's approach. I'm talking about slowing the pace of the game down to a crawl and just starving the opponent of shots by killing them on the boards. That's not really conducive to developing young guards to play in the modern NBA, and if that's the plan, they'll need to start different guards than one currently on the roster (with the possible exception of Exum). I can't imagine that's the plan, but then again, nothing about this season has made sense thus far.

of course it has... when the goal is to lose and keep the lottery pick to add a legit 1st option. none of the schemes or in game rotations have been optimal to winning basketball in the majority of games all season, and if its true JBB was in charge of that aspect of it ( doubtful given his history of overplaying vets) then it wont be getting any better without Beilein anyway. Which is just fine with this org who places way too high of value on draft picks especially considering how many times they have got it all wrong.In the past I have actually hoped they would get a lesser pick so they wouldn't get a chance to take the overhyped guy I didn't like and boom they of course picked the guy I didn't like over several other options again last draft. but they redeemed themselves taking Windler and KPJ so I let it go.


Well, and it's not like Sekou is lighting up the league, either. It's just that the Pistons have taken it a lot slower with him and have had a quick trigger when he hasn't played well. They're not force feeding him minutes like we are Garland even though he actually has an NBA body/athleticism.

The player the Piston's has turned to at the moment to fill the vacuum left by Drummond isn't Sekou let alone Henson, it's a player I mentioned in a thread as a possible cheap UFA target this Summer: Christian Wood.

He might just play himself right out of that cheap category ...

you have no way of knowing how well Sekou would have done had he been thrown in the fire like DG has been . I don't think he would have been that much better that fast tbh, but the athleticism and length and the underrated shooting and scoring ability for the youngest prospect taken in the draft were far better sells to me than a kid who had a great one on nobody workout and comes from NBA bloodlines.
I also was pretty high on some other options that have not done much yet either but nobody is calling them busts because their opportunities match their lack of readiness or worse their in **** situations where they actually deserve pt but are not getting it.
I mean tell me one good reason why KPJ shouldn't be in the sl over DG other than that DG was taken 5th instead of 30th...
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#43 » by JonFromVA » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:19 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:of course it has... when the goal is to lose and keep the lottery pick to add a legit 1st option. none of the schemes or in game rotations have been optimal to winning basketball in the majority of games all season, and if its true JBB was in charge of that aspect of it ( doubtful given his history of overplaying vets) then it wont be getting any better without Beilein anyway. Which is just fine with this org who places way too high of value on draft picks especially considering how many times they have got it all wrong.In the past I have actually hoped they would get a lesser pick so they wouldn't get a chance to take the overhyped guy I didn't like and boom they of course picked the guy I didn't like over several other options again last draft. but they redeemed themselves taking Windler and KPJ so I let it go.


Well, and it's not like Sekou is lighting up the league, either. It's just that the Pistons have taken it a lot slower with him and have had a quick trigger when he hasn't played well. They're not force feeding him minutes like we are Garland even though he actually has an NBA body/athleticism.

The player the Piston's has turned to at the moment to fill the vacuum left by Drummond isn't Sekou let alone Henson, it's a player I mentioned in a thread as a possible cheap UFA target this Summer: Christian Wood.

He might just play himself right out of that cheap category ...

you have no way of knowing how well Sekou would have done had he been thrown in the fire like DG has been . I don't think he would have been that much better that fast tbh, but the athleticism and length and the underrated shooting and scoring ability for the youngest prospect taken in the draft were far better sells to me than a kid who had a great one on nobody workout and comes from NBA bloodlines.
I also was pretty high on some other options that have not done much yet either but nobody is calling them busts because their opportunities match their lack of readiness or worse their in **** situations where they actually deserve pt but are not getting it.


Hey, I haven't called anyone a bust. 19 year olds take time, but I think there'd be a lot of screaming from other fans if we'd taken Sekou at #5 (as we're seeing with Garland). Lots of Cavs fans want to tank, but don't seem to have the patience for it.

Stillwater wrote:I mean tell me one good reason why KPJ shouldn't be in the sl over DG other than that DG was taken 5th instead of 30th...


You set a low bar there, so here you go:

Garland leads the starters in Net Rtg On-Off with a -1.1. While a -1.1 is hardly good, it indicates that better things are happening with the bench unit ... like presumably KPJ; alas KPJ's net on-off is -4.1.

By that stat, you might consider starting KPJ over Sexton (but not Osman) but should also consider Delly, Nance, and even Zizic if he ever gets over his vertigo.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612739/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=1

Alas, the Cavs have been emphasizing stability of the starting unit over trying to find something that might work. Under normal conditions, there's simply no sane reason to keep a lineup that's -10 pp100 together.

Otoh, they're -44 pp100 in 2 games with Drummond in the starting lineup, so maybe it could be worse ... :cry:
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#44 » by jbk1234 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:59 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I can easily see some of both going on ... to what extent? Yes, that's still conjecture unless we get further rumors or better yet confirmation.

If players who weren't buying in were traded for players who had either played for Beilein would be receptive to him - well - that would had sent a completely different signal. Trading for Drummond (like I said at the time) seemed to be a play to save Kevin Love. Not only because they share the same agent and have a connection, but because of how he could compliment Kevin and give us some veteran stability if Tristan signs elsewhere. It also gives Sexton and Garland some rim protection and a P&R target.

Andre improves our chances of winning games which would have made life less miserable for ... well, everybody; but I don't think that was enough for Beilein. He didn't want to just go through the motions. It seems he lost the locker-room and knew it.

What Andre's stance does is just encourage everybody to accelerate everything.

Beilein I'm sure would have been professional and finished out the season so the Cavs could make a clean transition this off-season and he'd collect his fully salary, but he made it clear things weren't working and he was done or at least likely was done.

With Andre making it clear (no doubt through his agent) that Beilein was a problem (after just days!!!) that just makes the decision to act now rather than wait very clear. The trick then became reaching an agreement with Beilein and Bickerstaff so they could have a sensible and affordable transition.

I mean, it's not like we invested much in to Drummond. We could just try to recoup some assets by agreeing to S&T him this Summer and just be done with him. But then we'd probably be looking to trade Kevin, and we'd have to strongly considering trading Sexton or Garland too to break up that back-court.

And while it can be argued that would still be the best course for the team, presumably that's not what the Cavs were hoping to accomplish or at least they weren't interested in having that decision forced on them.


I get that they share the same agent, but I really lose the thread when people argue that Drummond was brought in to help Love. I don't see them as a great pairing. Love doesn't strike me as having a low bbiq so hopefully he sees the same thing. Neither big man is a good PNR defender and they both have poor lateral quickness. Drummond's rim protection is vastly overrated. His block per minute rate is decidedly meh.

Offensively, Drummond's at his best when he tries to do less and sticks with what he's good at. He should not be trying to stretch the floor. He should not be screwing around with behind-the-back passes or excessive dribbling. Drummond should be setting picks, rolling to the hoop, crashing the boards, and posting up. That's it. Love is at his best when the floor is opened up and he's playing alongside more athletic big men like Nance who can offer some spacing but still presents enough of a threat to cut to the basket to keep the defense honest. Love's ideal pairing is a version of Nance who is several inches taller.

In order to have a Drummond/Love front court translate to wins, you'd have to fundamentally alter the team's approach. I'm talking about slowing the pace of the game down to a crawl and just starving the opponent of shots by killing them on the boards. That's not really conducive to developing young guards to play in the modern NBA, and if that's the plan, they'll need to start different guards than one currently on the roster (with the possible exception of Exum). I can't imagine that's the plan, but then again, nothing about this season has made sense thus far.

of course it has... when the goal is to lose and keep the lottery pick to add a legit 1st option. none of the schemes or in game rotations have been optimal to winning basketball in the majority of games all season, and if its true JBB was in charge of that aspect of it ( doubtful given his history of overplaying vets) then it wont be getting any better without Beilein anyway. Which is just fine with this org who places way too high of value on draft picks especially considering how many times they have got it all wrong.In the past I have actually hoped they would get a lesser pick so they wouldn't get a chance to take the overhyped guy I didn't like and boom they of course picked the guy I didn't like over several other options again last draft. but they redeemed themselves taking Windler and KPJ so I let it go.


The problem with the they're-trying-to-be-this-dysfunctional argument is that it's pretty easy to lose games in the NBA without getting run out of the gym on a nightly basis, watching your team splinter in front of your eyes, and sitting on your hands. In fact, you can play well in close games and lose a lot just by playing young guys in the final minutes.

There's no advantage to what they did this season. Not in the long term and certainly not in the short term. I don't see what happened this season as part of any grand plan. If there is some type of plan here, it would behoove Altman to step in front of a microphone and articulate it. If things didn't go according to plan, it would be great if he acknowledged that and explained what his thoughts were going forward.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#45 » by jbk1234 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:06 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:of course it has... when the goal is to lose and keep the lottery pick to add a legit 1st option. none of the schemes or in game rotations have been optimal to winning basketball in the majority of games all season, and if its true JBB was in charge of that aspect of it ( doubtful given his history of overplaying vets) then it wont be getting any better without Beilein anyway. Which is just fine with this org who places way too high of value on draft picks especially considering how many times they have got it all wrong.In the past I have actually hoped they would get a lesser pick so they wouldn't get a chance to take the overhyped guy I didn't like and boom they of course picked the guy I didn't like over several other options again last draft. but they redeemed themselves taking Windler and KPJ so I let it go.


Well, and it's not like Sekou is lighting up the league, either. It's just that the Pistons have taken it a lot slower with him and have had a quick trigger when he hasn't played well. They're not force feeding him minutes like we are Garland even though he actually has an NBA body/athleticism.

The player the Piston's has turned to at the moment to fill the vacuum left by Drummond isn't Sekou let alone Henson, it's a player I mentioned in a thread as a possible cheap UFA target this Summer: Christian Wood.

He might just play himself right out of that cheap category ...

you have no way of knowing how well Sekou would have done had he been thrown in the fire like DG has been . I don't think he would have been that much better that fast tbh, but the athleticism and length and the underrated shooting and scoring ability for the youngest prospect taken in the draft were far better sells to me than a kid who had a great one on nobody workout and comes from NBA bloodlines.
I also was pretty high on some other options that have not done much yet either but nobody is calling them busts because their opportunities match their lack of readiness or worse their in **** situations where they actually deserve pt but are not getting it.
I mean tell me one good reason why KPJ shouldn't be in the sl over DG other than that DG was taken 5th instead of 30th...


There was virtual unanimity among scouts that Sekou was a long-term project with a high upside. He's no more ready to start than Garland. While force feeding guys NBA minutes might have some value, I'm really starting to believe that forcing 19-year olds to start before they're ready is counterproductive. Garland's best moments have mostly come of the bench this season. When you have team control for four years, you shouldn't feel like you have to start guys their rookies season based on draft position.

How many shots are there for the rest of the starters if your starting back court is made up of Sexton and KPJ? How long would it take before those two guys stopped sharing the ball with each other out of fear they wouldn't get it back?
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#46 » by jbk1234 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:34 pm

Wut?

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#47 » by jbk1234 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#48 » by jbk1234 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:45 pm

Get. Control. Of. Your. Organization. Altman.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#49 » by Stillwater » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Well, and it's not like Sekou is lighting up the league, either. It's just that the Pistons have taken it a lot slower with him and have had a quick trigger when he hasn't played well. They're not force feeding him minutes like we are Garland even though he actually has an NBA body/athleticism.

The player the Piston's has turned to at the moment to fill the vacuum left by Drummond isn't Sekou let alone Henson, it's a player I mentioned in a thread as a possible cheap UFA target this Summer: Christian Wood.

He might just play himself right out of that cheap category ...

you have no way of knowing how well Sekou would have done had he been thrown in the fire like DG has been . I don't think he would have been that much better that fast tbh, but the athleticism and length and the underrated shooting and scoring ability for the youngest prospect taken in the draft were far better sells to me than a kid who had a great one on nobody workout and comes from NBA bloodlines.
I also was pretty high on some other options that have not done much yet either but nobody is calling them busts because their opportunities match their lack of readiness or worse their in **** situations where they actually deserve pt but are not getting it.
I mean tell me one good reason why KPJ shouldn't be in the sl over DG other than that DG was taken 5th instead of 30th...


There was virtual unanimity among scouts that Sekou was a long-term project with a high upside. He's no more ready to start than Garland. While force feeding guys NBA minutes might have some value, I'm really starting to believe that forcing 19-year olds to start before they're ready is counterproductive. Garland's best moments have mostly come of the bench this season. When you have team control for four years, you shouldn't feel like you have to start guys their rookies season based on draft position.

How many shots are there for the rest of the starters if your starting back court is made up of Sexton and KPJ? How long would it take before those two guys stopped sharing the ball with each other out of fear they wouldn't get it back?

no question it depends on the prospect, and we will never know but that was the point... for a an org willing to gift starter minutes to a player not ready physically like Garland certainly would have done the same for a player who despite needing to be coached up more on paper is far more NBA ready as far as athletic and overall physical standpoint, not to mention he is already proving in ltd minutes to be better offensively than the unanimous fools who let him fall to 15.
KPJ is better than DG at getting buckets and the fact they never used him in sl other than on an as needed basis only shows the effort to tank is real along with of course the need to play their lottery pick even though he isnt ready to facilitate opportunity for development even if said development isn't happening more than 1% increments
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#50 » by jbk1234 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:18 pm

This article makes me really angry. Maybe be the league has passed me by as a fan as well.

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#51 » by JonFromVA » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:25 pm

I'm fine with force feeding our young players minutes. I'm fine with trying to create some continuity and consistency, but what I'm not fine with is sticking with lineups and rotations which simply are not working. It's either extremely negligent or extremely tanky to keep running a starting lineup out that's averaging -10 pp100.

I mean the old Irving-Waiters-Gee-Thompson-Zeller lineup was better than that at -7, and when Andy was healthy that season they were +14 !!!

Maybe something changes with JBB and Drummond, but there really aren't any positives lineups worth mentioning.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#52 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:06 am

JonFromVA wrote:I'm fine with force feeding our young players minutes. I'm fine with trying to create some continuity and consistency, but what I'm not fine with is sticking with lineups and rotations which simply are not working. It's either extremely negligent or extremely tanky to keep running a starting lineup out that's averaging -10 pp100.

I mean the old Irving-Waiters-Gee-Thompson-Zeller lineup was better than that at -7, and when Andy was healthy that season they were +14 !!!

Maybe something changes with JBB and Drummond, but there really aren't any positives lineups worth mentioning.

the problem with tanking by means of overplaying the same disfunctional line ups that continue to make errors in judgement (all young players)& or are not capable physically(DG) of following through despite understanding most of the sets or worse are complacent (vets)due to playing with the aforementioned newbies and a development prioritized coach(former coach) is that only the ones who are making mental mistakes are capable of quickly learning and benefiting from the reps with constant chances for gain by means of loss at very small slow improvement over time that is not obvious unless you step away for 10 games and look again.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#53 » by JonFromVA » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:07 am

jbk1234 wrote:This article makes me really angry. Maybe be the league has passed me by as a fan as well.


I know how you feel ... but I don't buy everything the media shovels. I mean if Fedor had been reporting all this crap since training camp that would be one thing, but all of it coming out now just seems like the good old pile on effect where every little thing is blown out of proportion to try to create a narrative.

Heck, recently I've read/heard multiple people claim that Beilein called the players Thugs(Slugs) when unless I'm losing my memory what he was actually telling them is that he was happy they weren't playing like Thugs(Slugs). And anyone who'd bothered to watch any of the games would realize that thugs doesn't even make sense.

But it's dump on Cleveland time again ... :banghead:
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#54 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:13 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:This article makes me really angry. Maybe be the league has passed me by as a fan as well.


I know how you feel ... but I don't buy everything the media shovels. I mean if Fedor had been reporting all this crap since training camp that would be one thing, but all of it coming out now just seems like the good old pile on effect where every little thing is blown out of proportion to try to create a narrative.

Heck, recently I've read/heard multiple people claim that Beilein called the players Thugs(Slugs) when unless I'm losing my memory what he was actually telling them is that he was happy they weren't playing like Thugs(Slugs). And anyone who'd bothered to watch any of the games would realize that thugs doesn't even make sense.

But it's dump on Cleveland time again ... :banghead:

I dont buy almost anything the media chooses to embeleish to make their "story" sound true.
every time I read this kind of hot garbage I just assume it's bits and pieces of hearsay solo with zero backing tracks
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#55 » by JonFromVA » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:16 am

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:I'm fine with force feeding our young players minutes. I'm fine with trying to create some continuity and consistency, but what I'm not fine with is sticking with lineups and rotations which simply are not working. It's either extremely negligent or extremely tanky to keep running a starting lineup out that's averaging -10 pp100.

I mean the old Irving-Waiters-Gee-Thompson-Zeller lineup was better than that at -7, and when Andy was healthy that season they were +14 !!!

Maybe something changes with JBB and Drummond, but there really aren't any positives lineups worth mentioning.

the problem with tanking by means of overplaying the same disfunctional line ups that continue to make errors in judgement (all young players)& or are not capable physically(DG) of following through despite understanding most of the sets or worse are complacent (vets)due to playing with the aforementioned newbies and a development prioritized coach(former coach) is that only the ones who are making mental mistakes are capable of quickly learning and benefiting from the reps with constant chances for gain by means of loss at very small slow improvement over time that is not obvious unless you step away for 10 games and look again.


The kids should have something to learn from every game, even if it's just learning the other players first hand rather than via tape; but the FO is just shooting itself in the foot by not trying different lineups. No carrots, no sticks, no hope.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#56 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:21 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:I'm fine with force feeding our young players minutes. I'm fine with trying to create some continuity and consistency, but what I'm not fine with is sticking with lineups and rotations which simply are not working. It's either extremely negligent or extremely tanky to keep running a starting lineup out that's averaging -10 pp100.

I mean the old Irving-Waiters-Gee-Thompson-Zeller lineup was better than that at -7, and when Andy was healthy that season they were +14 !!!

Maybe something changes with JBB and Drummond, but there really aren't any positives lineups worth mentioning.

the problem with tanking by means of overplaying the same disfunctional line ups that continue to make errors in judgement (all young players)& or are not capable physically(DG) of following through despite understanding most of the sets or worse are complacent (vets)due to playing with the aforementioned newbies and a development prioritized coach(former coach) is that only the ones who are making mental mistakes are capable of quickly learning and benefiting from the reps with constant chances for gain by means of loss at very small slow improvement over time that is not obvious unless you step away for 10 games and look again.


The kids should have something to learn from every game, even if it's just learning the other players first hand rather than via tape; but the FO is just shooting itself in the foot by not trying different lineups. No carrots, no sticks, no hope.

I mean if it was true that JBB was in charge of the line ups and it never changed what does that tell you is going to happen on friday or any game to come?
He had a track record of benching young players in Memphis and he lost that gig so does that mean he is now the overplay the kids coach...lol or is he just another pawn who had nothing to do with the line up and will now start rolling out Exum Delly McKinnie Nance and Love in the starting Line up with Sexton and Osman off the bench and DG,KPJ and other young end of bench players in dire need of reps riding the pine to close the season because they suck?
I have no **** clue what they are doing, but I know they have been tanking all season, are they now? dont know what to think anymore
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#57 » by Revenged25 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:51 pm

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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#58 » by JonFromVA » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:08 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:the problem with tanking by means of overplaying the same disfunctional line ups that continue to make errors in judgement (all young players)& or are not capable physically(DG) of following through despite understanding most of the sets or worse are complacent (vets)due to playing with the aforementioned newbies and a development prioritized coach(former coach) is that only the ones who are making mental mistakes are capable of quickly learning and benefiting from the reps with constant chances for gain by means of loss at very small slow improvement over time that is not obvious unless you step away for 10 games and look again.


The kids should have something to learn from every game, even if it's just learning the other players first hand rather than via tape; but the FO is just shooting itself in the foot by not trying different lineups. No carrots, no sticks, no hope.

I mean if it was true that JBB was in charge of the line ups and it never changed what does that tell you is going to happen on friday or any game to come?
He had a track record of benching young players in Memphis and he lost that gig so does that mean he is now the overplay the kids coach...lol or is he just another pawn who had nothing to do with the line up and will now start rolling out Exum Delly McKinnie Nance and Love in the starting Line up with Sexton and Osman off the bench and DG,KPJ and other young end of bench players in dire need of reps riding the pine to close the season because they suck?
I have no **** clue what they are doing, but I know they have been tanking all season, are they now? dont know what to think anymore


I don't think they can hard tank with Drummond *unless* their goal is to get him to surrender his option. The primary goal of keeping their own pick has all but been achieved, the question now is whether they feel they need to lock in a top-2 losing record to try to stay in the top-6 of the draft (in case multiple teams skip ahead of them).

With the trade deadline past, their priorities could shift somewhat; but they still have to deal with Love. Either find a way to make him happy and re-engaged ... or try to somehow convince another team he has positive value. Maybe both ...

For those reasons, I'm thinking we're entering a soft-tank stage. Stay tuned in case we start winning too much, though.
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#59 » by Stillwater » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:48 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The kids should have something to learn from every game, even if it's just learning the other players first hand rather than via tape; but the FO is just shooting itself in the foot by not trying different lineups. No carrots, no sticks, no hope.

I mean if it was true that JBB was in charge of the line ups and it never changed what does that tell you is going to happen on friday or any game to come?
He had a track record of benching young players in Memphis and he lost that gig so does that mean he is now the overplay the kids coach...lol or is he just another pawn who had nothing to do with the line up and will now start rolling out Exum Delly McKinnie Nance and Love in the starting Line up with Sexton and Osman off the bench and DG,KPJ and other young end of bench players in dire need of reps riding the pine to close the season because they suck?
I have no **** clue what they are doing, but I know they have been tanking all season, are they now? dont know what to think anymore


I don't think they can hard tank with Drummond *unless* their goal is to get him to surrender his option. The primary goal of keeping their own pick has all but been achieved, the question now is whether they feel they need to lock in a top-2 losing record to try to stay in the top-6 of the draft (in case multiple teams skip ahead of them).

With the trade deadline past, their priorities could shift somewhat; but they still have to deal with Love. Either find a way to make him happy and re-engaged ... or try to somehow convince another team he has positive value. Maybe both ...

For those reasons, I'm thinking we're entering a soft-tank stage. Stay tuned in case we start winning too much, though.

10 games are against non playoff teams I don't expect to win half of them even without tanking unless the other team is tanking it out but wouldn't be surprised if they have another 3 good games against the comfortable into the playoffs teams that are resting stars down the stretch and maybe get those wins . I projected 10 more wins before the trade and the resignation while tanking now I'm projecting 8 while jbb is trying to win with vets if that's what happens lol.
Entire org is a joke to the media and people in CLE are soon to be completely tuned out.
Wouldn't be surprised if Gilbert eventually sells out or moves to a different city.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan 

Post#60 » by jbk1234 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:03 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I mean if it was true that JBB was in charge of the line ups and it never changed what does that tell you is going to happen on friday or any game to come?
He had a track record of benching young players in Memphis and he lost that gig so does that mean he is now the overplay the kids coach...lol or is he just another pawn who had nothing to do with the line up and will now start rolling out Exum Delly McKinnie Nance and Love in the starting Line up with Sexton and Osman off the bench and DG,KPJ and other young end of bench players in dire need of reps riding the pine to close the season because they suck?
I have no **** clue what they are doing, but I know they have been tanking all season, are they now? dont know what to think anymore


I don't think they can hard tank with Drummond *unless* their goal is to get him to surrender his option. The primary goal of keeping their own pick has all but been achieved, the question now is whether they feel they need to lock in a top-2 losing record to try to stay in the top-6 of the draft (in case multiple teams skip ahead of them).

With the trade deadline past, their priorities could shift somewhat; but they still have to deal with Love. Either find a way to make him happy and re-engaged ... or try to somehow convince another team he has positive value. Maybe both ...

For those reasons, I'm thinking we're entering a soft-tank stage. Stay tuned in case we start winning too much, though.

10 games are against non playoff teams I don't expect to win half of them even without tanking unless the other team is tanking it out but wouldn't be surprised if they have another 3 good games against the comfortable into the playoffs teams that are resting stars down the stretch and maybe get those wins . I projected 10 more wins before the trade and the resignation while tanking now I'm projecting 8 while jbb is trying to win with vets if that's what happens lol.
Entire org is a joke to the media and people in CLE are soon to be completely tuned out.
Wouldn't be surprised if Gilbert eventually sells out or moves to a different city.


The taxpayers just spent a ton of money rehabbing Rocket Arena. The Cavs are locked into their lease until 2034. We're stuck with them and they're stuck with us for the next 14 years.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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