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A Drummond extension?

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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#61 » by Stillwater » Wed Sep 2, 2020 5:31 pm

the test drive was too short of a time frame to get a solid take on if Dre is worth paying, but it was a good enough window to be optimistic he might be worth retaining if the market is dry which it should be and they can get him signed for less ...but they would not be finding that out if they did extend him early and really should only do that if they expect he would jump on a contender if he had to take a pay cut esp if they plan to try to keep him no matter what.
I thought they just just traded for him to get a idea of how a true dominant rebounder and big man presence could impact the guard play and if it was worth targetting Wiseman and flipping Dre as an expiring. Now with Wiseman likely off the table who knows what the thinking is.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#62 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 2, 2020 6:14 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Suffice to say, my faith in the organization will be shaken if they extend Drummond. Altman could end up losing his job anyway, only people will question whether he should get another one.


Unless we get a chance to see him play, and he plays well and seems to fit? Then I presume your opinion would change?

That could be because you were like 25% optimistic (or whatever) when we traded for Drummond and presumed based on what you know about him and our team that he wouldn't fit.

But would you have traded for him in the first place?

From our discussion, I'm guessing no. With a low chance of working out and other things we could do with the cap space, why waste our time?

But then we get to Koby/Dan who did trade for him and I imagine they were a lot more optimistic and weren't interested in wasting time or opportunities just to kick tires on Andre or see what the team might look like with a 7 footer. Sure, that's a nice bonus, but I don't think they bother making the trade unless they're oh, 65% maybe 75% optimistic.

So, in a situation where we do not find out for sure whether Andre would be good for the team or worth ____ $$$, you'd round down and let Drummond walk ... but I'm thinking it's likely that Koby/Dan would round up and try to keep him *if* Andre is interested in extending now at something less than max.
My entire point is that there's no good reason to extend him until you've seen him play, at least half a season, and you have a better sense of what's going on with the salary cap.


That was sort of the Cavs' thinking when they decided not to extend Delly's rookie contract. What's the rush? We can save on some luxury tax, we can pay Shumpert now, and we can always sign Delly later. But what happened later is he got offered a $10M/yr deal by the Bucks which we decided wasn't worth the luxury tax penalty and then Shumpert kept getting hurt.

There were good reasons to wait, but as it turned out there were also good reasons to have extended Delly when we had the chance.

If Andre looks so good with the Cavs that he convinces you he's worth keeping, he'll probably convince some other teams as well.

There are risks to not taking risks too ...
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#63 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 2, 2020 6:28 pm

Stillwater wrote:the test drive was too short of a time frame to get a solid take on if Dre is worth paying, but it was a good enough window to be optimistic he might be worth retaining if the market is dry which it should be and they can get him signed for less ...but they would not be finding that out if they did extend him early and really should only do that if they expect he would jump on a contender if he had to take a pay cut esp if they plan to try to keep him no matter what.
I thought they just just traded for him to get a idea of how a true dominant rebounder and big man presence could impact the guard play and if it was worth targetting Wiseman and flipping Dre as an expiring. Now with Wiseman likely off the table who knows what the thinking is.


Oh, I can think of all sorts of reasons, but the problem is that all the outcomes are out of our control.

We may have the opportunity to change that if the state of the world convinces Andre he'd be willing to extend with the Cavs for a number that makes sense to both sides.
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#64 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 2, 2020 6:51 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Unless we get a chance to see him play, and he plays well and seems to fit? Then I presume your opinion would change?

That could be because you were like 25% optimistic (or whatever) when we traded for Drummond and presumed based on what you know about him and our team that he wouldn't fit.

But would you have traded for him in the first place?

From our discussion, I'm guessing no. With a low chance of working out and other things we could do with the cap space, why waste our time?

But then we get to Koby/Dan who did trade for him and I imagine they were a lot more optimistic and weren't interested in wasting time or opportunities just to kick tires on Andre or see what the team might look like with a 7 footer. Sure, that's a nice bonus, but I don't think they bother making the trade unless they're oh, 65% maybe 75% optimistic.

So, in a situation where we do not find out for sure whether Andre would be good for the team or worth ____ $$$, you'd round down and let Drummond walk ... but I'm thinking it's likely that Koby/Dan would round up and try to keep him *if* Andre is interested in extending now at something less than max.
My entire point is that there's no good reason to extend him until you've seen him play, at least half a season, and you have a better sense of what's going on with the salary cap.


That was sort of the Cavs' thinking when they decided not to extend Delly's rookie contract. What's the rush? We can save on some luxury tax, we can pay Shumpert now, and we can always sign Delly later. But what happened later is he got offered a $10M/yr deal by the Bucks which we decided wasn't worth the luxury tax penalty and then Shumpert kept getting hurt.

There were good reasons to wait, but as it turned out there were also good reasons to have extended Delly when we had the chance.

If Andre looks so good with the Cavs that he convinces you he's worth keeping, he'll probably convince some other teams as well.

There are risks to not taking risks too ...
I mean we got a first from the Bucks for taking back Delly because there's never been a version of Delly who was worth $10M per. We still made the Finals without him.

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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#65 » by Stillwater » Wed Sep 2, 2020 8:14 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:the test drive was too short of a time frame to get a solid take on if Dre is worth paying, but it was a good enough window to be optimistic he might be worth retaining if the market is dry which it should be and they can get him signed for less ...but they would not be finding that out if they did extend him early and really should only do that if they expect he would jump on a contender if he had to take a pay cut esp if they plan to try to keep him no matter what.
I thought they just just traded for him to get a idea of how a true dominant rebounder and big man presence could impact the guard play and if it was worth targetting Wiseman and flipping Dre as an expiring. Now with Wiseman likely off the table who knows what the thinking is.


Oh, I can think of all sorts of reasons, but the problem is that all the outcomes are out of our control.

We may have the opportunity to change that if the state of the world convinces Andre he'd be willing to extend with the Cavs for a number that makes sense to both sides.

SO if we dont know for sure what Altmans goal was why speculate as to what may or may not happen anyway?
of course there are several reasons that factor in, you could argue he is the best rebounder in the NBA but you could also argue he is not a good defender despite having the ability because he still lacks the motor and interest to play that hard day in day out which was the bitch about him predraft.
Either way he could be an assett to this roster this season if they ever play but i highly doubt he is on the roster this time next season whether he is dumped at the dl after no extension was given or traded for draft assets on a reasonable contract in June or whenever the draft is for the 21 class.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#66 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 2, 2020 9:08 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:My entire point is that there's no good reason to extend him until you've seen him play, at least half a season, and you have a better sense of what's going on with the salary cap.


That was sort of the Cavs' thinking when they decided not to extend Delly's rookie contract. What's the rush? We can save on some luxury tax, we can pay Shumpert now, and we can always sign Delly later. But what happened later is he got offered a $10M/yr deal by the Bucks which we decided wasn't worth the luxury tax penalty and then Shumpert kept getting hurt.

There were good reasons to wait, but as it turned out there were also good reasons to have extended Delly when we had the chance.

If Andre looks so good with the Cavs that he convinces you he's worth keeping, he'll probably convince some other teams as well.

There are risks to not taking risks too ...
I mean we got a first from the Bucks for taking back Delly because there's never been a version of Delly who was worth $10M per. We still made the Finals without him.


The point was we could have already had Delly locked up for a whole lot less. They call it an "opportunity cost" when you fail to make a decision you might had profited from. Kind of like not putting your money in a saving account will cost you 0.00001% a year ... :banghead:
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#67 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 2, 2020 9:25 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:the test drive was too short of a time frame to get a solid take on if Dre is worth paying, but it was a good enough window to be optimistic he might be worth retaining if the market is dry which it should be and they can get him signed for less ...but they would not be finding that out if they did extend him early and really should only do that if they expect he would jump on a contender if he had to take a pay cut esp if they plan to try to keep him no matter what.
I thought they just just traded for him to get a idea of how a true dominant rebounder and big man presence could impact the guard play and if it was worth targetting Wiseman and flipping Dre as an expiring. Now with Wiseman likely off the table who knows what the thinking is.


Oh, I can think of all sorts of reasons, but the problem is that all the outcomes are out of our control.

We may have the opportunity to change that if the state of the world convinces Andre he'd be willing to extend with the Cavs for a number that makes sense to both sides.

SO if we dont know for sure what Altmans goal was why speculate as to what may or may not happen anyway?
of course there are several reasons that factor in, you could argue he is the best rebounder in the NBA but you could also argue he is not a good defender despite having the ability because he still lacks the motor and interest to play that hard day in day out which was the bitch about him predraft.
Either way he could be an assett to this roster this season if they ever play but i highly doubt he is on the roster this time next season whether he is dumped at the dl after no extension was given or traded for draft assets on a reasonable contract in June or whenever the draft is for the 21 class.


Probably because sports fans like to state opinions as absolutes ... but mostly I enjoy examining causes & effects and trying to get "in the mind" of our coaches and GMs. If we can figure out their thought process/motivations, we really can start to predict their actions.

I don't have much of a feel for Koby and JBB, so much as I have for Dan; which is why I suspect we'll once again try to draft a high-upside player.
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#68 » by Stillwater » Wed Sep 2, 2020 10:07 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Oh, I can think of all sorts of reasons, but the problem is that all the outcomes are out of our control.

We may have the opportunity to change that if the state of the world convinces Andre he'd be willing to extend with the Cavs for a number that makes sense to both sides.

SO if we dont know for sure what Altmans goal was why speculate as to what may or may not happen anyway?
of course there are several reasons that factor in, you could argue he is the best rebounder in the NBA but you could also argue he is not a good defender despite having the ability because he still lacks the motor and interest to play that hard day in day out which was the bitch about him predraft.
Either way he could be an assett to this roster this season if they ever play but i highly doubt he is on the roster this time next season whether he is dumped at the dl after no extension was given or traded for draft assets on a reasonable contract in June or whenever the draft is for the 21 class.


Probably because sports fans like to state opinions as absolutes ... but mostly I enjoy examining causes & effects and trying to get "in the mind" of our coaches and GMs. If we can figure out their thought process/motivations, we really can start to predict their actions.

I don't have much of a feel for Koby and JBB, so much as I have for Dan; which is why I suspect we'll once again try to draft a high-upside player.

do you mean as opposed to a high floor one? lol
yeah I still think Klutch influenced the Garland pick heavily esp after he went 45 for 50 or whatever it was in a one on none workout setting and if it were not for Sextons in person workout lighting up the building before the 18 draft I would not be surprised if they would have picked Miles Bridges at 8.
This org during this rebuild so far relies heavily on small window selling points, if a prospect wants to be there so Dan can relax & has a work ethic they can trust , but they also have not valued defensive focused prospects and really need to this time
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#69 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 2, 2020 11:20 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:SO if we dont know for sure what Altmans goal was why speculate as to what may or may not happen anyway?
of course there are several reasons that factor in, you could argue he is the best rebounder in the NBA but you could also argue he is not a good defender despite having the ability because he still lacks the motor and interest to play that hard day in day out which was the bitch about him predraft.
Either way he could be an assett to this roster this season if they ever play but i highly doubt he is on the roster this time next season whether he is dumped at the dl after no extension was given or traded for draft assets on a reasonable contract in June or whenever the draft is for the 21 class.


Probably because sports fans like to state opinions as absolutes ... but mostly I enjoy examining causes & effects and trying to get "in the mind" of our coaches and GMs. If we can figure out their thought process/motivations, we really can start to predict their actions.

I don't have much of a feel for Koby and JBB, so much as I have for Dan; which is why I suspect we'll once again try to draft a high-upside player.

do you mean as opposed to a high floor one? lol
yeah I still think Klutch influenced the Garland pick heavily esp after he went 45 for 50 or whatever it was in a one on none workout setting and if it were not for Sextons in person workout lighting up the building before the 18 draft I would not be surprised if they would have picked Miles Bridges at 8.
This org during this rebuild so far relies heavily on small window selling points, if a prospect wants to be there so Dan can relax & has a work ethic they can trust , but they also have not valued defensive focused prospects and really need to this time


Yeah, floor is not much of a concern, but they are emphasizing character and work-ethic as well which I think played a major part in all of their selections. If they successfully identify players who love basketball, love to be in the gym, then there's a better chance they will reach that high-upside they're shooting for. And it they don't mind playing for the Cavaliers, they may even reach it with us.

The audit trail on this stuff is pretty clear from the smoking wreckage of our previous picks ... or what we call, learning on the job for Dan Gilbert.
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#70 » by Stillwater » Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:01 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Probably because sports fans like to state opinions as absolutes ... but mostly I enjoy examining causes & effects and trying to get "in the mind" of our coaches and GMs. If we can figure out their thought process/motivations, we really can start to predict their actions.

I don't have much of a feel for Koby and JBB, so much as I have for Dan; which is why I suspect we'll once again try to draft a high-upside player.

do you mean as opposed to a high floor one? lol
yeah I still think Klutch influenced the Garland pick heavily esp after he went 45 for 50 or whatever it was in a one on none workout setting and if it were not for Sextons in person workout lighting up the building before the 18 draft I would not be surprised if they would have picked Miles Bridges at 8.
This org during this rebuild so far relies heavily on small window selling points, if a prospect wants to be there so Dan can relax & has a work ethic they can trust , but they also have not valued defensive focused prospects and really need to this time


Yeah, floor is not much of a concern, but they are emphasizing character and work-ethic as well which I think played a major part in all of their selections. If they successfully identify players who love basketball, love to be in the gym, then there's a better chance they will reach that high-upside they're shooting for. And it they don't mind playing for the Cavaliers, they may even reach it with us.

The audit trail on this stuff is pretty clear from the smoking wreckage of our previous picks ... or what we call, learning on the job for Dan Gilbert.

I would have no problem with Dan selling the team & moving them to Canada if they dont pick a high floor defender in the lottery this time
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#71 » by jbk1234 » Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:07 am

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:do you mean as opposed to a high floor one? lol
yeah I still think Klutch influenced the Garland pick heavily esp after he went 45 for 50 or whatever it was in a one on none workout setting and if it were not for Sextons in person workout lighting up the building before the 18 draft I would not be surprised if they would have picked Miles Bridges at 8.
This org during this rebuild so far relies heavily on small window selling points, if a prospect wants to be there so Dan can relax & has a work ethic they can trust , but they also have not valued defensive focused prospects and really need to this time


Yeah, floor is not much of a concern, but they are emphasizing character and work-ethic as well which I think played a major part in all of their selections. If they successfully identify players who love basketball, love to be in the gym, then there's a better chance they will reach that high-upside they're shooting for. And it they don't mind playing for the Cavaliers, they may even reach it with us.

The audit trail on this stuff is pretty clear from the smoking wreckage of our previous picks ... or what we call, learning on the job for Dan Gilbert.

I would have no problem with Dan selling the team & moving them to Canada if they dont pick a high floor defender in the lottery this time
Let's not get carried away.

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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#72 » by Stillwater » Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:08 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Yeah, floor is not much of a concern, but they are emphasizing character and work-ethic as well which I think played a major part in all of their selections. If they successfully identify players who love basketball, love to be in the gym, then there's a better chance they will reach that high-upside they're shooting for. And it they don't mind playing for the Cavaliers, they may even reach it with us.

The audit trail on this stuff is pretty clear from the smoking wreckage of our previous picks ... or what we call, learning on the job for Dan Gilbert.

I would have no problem with Dan selling the team & moving them to Canada if they dont pick a high floor defender in the lottery this time
Let's not get carried away.

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lol yeah I just know they are gonna reach on some offensive prospect
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#73 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 3, 2020 3:34 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I would have no problem with Dan selling the team & moving them to Canada if they dont pick a high floor defender in the lottery this time
Let's not get carried away.

lol yeah I just know they are gonna reach on some offensive prospect


While I have little faith in their talent evaluation + decision making, it's always possible they get something right or just get lucky.

Takes a lot of patience to find out ... heck, we're still discovering whether a player that demonstrated super-star potential as a rookie like Kyrie Irving actually makes his team better when he's on the floor let alone whether he can stay healthy.
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#74 » by Stillwater » Thu Sep 3, 2020 5:40 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Let's not get carried away.

lol yeah I just know they are gonna reach on some offensive prospect


While I have little faith in their talent evaluation + decision making, it's always possible they get something right or just get lucky.

Takes a lot of patience to find out ... heck, we're still discovering whether a player that demonstrated super-star potential as a rookie like Kyrie Irving actually makes his team better when he's on the floor let alone whether he can stay healthy.

thats an intersting take...since players of similar build and skill rarely ever make their teams better and Kyrie is probably the best under the rim scorer in NBA history so if he doesnt make his team better its because noone is expecting him too even try to sinnce they aint even close to being on his level as a scorer and would always be the lesser option so he absolutely will be the first option in his head all day long on a team void of other at least similar level scorers. Unlike Lebron who can dominate both sides of the ball create massive amounts of offense for role players due to the attention he gets and yet still hasnt won it all without a player like Kyrie or Wade
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#75 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 3, 2020 7:58 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:lol yeah I just know they are gonna reach on some offensive prospect


While I have little faith in their talent evaluation + decision making, it's always possible they get something right or just get lucky.

Takes a lot of patience to find out ... heck, we're still discovering whether a player that demonstrated super-star potential as a rookie like Kyrie Irving actually makes his team better when he's on the floor let alone whether he can stay healthy.

thats an intersting take...since players of similar build and skill rarely ever make their teams better and Kyrie is probably the best under the rim scorer in NBA history so if he doesnt make his team better its because noone is expecting him too even try to sinnce they aint even close to being on his level as a scorer and would always be the lesser option so he absolutely will be the first option in his head all day long on a team void of other at least similar level scorers. Unlike Lebron who can dominate both sides of the ball create massive amounts of offense for role players due to the attention he gets and yet still hasnt won it all without a player like Kyrie or Wade


You may be putting more emphasis on the word "make" then I am. For instance I think Kemba is making the Celtics a better team by being willing to do less which allows his teammates to do more. I'm also not taking a championship or bust approach here either.

The Nets and Lakers are roughly .500 teams without Kyrie and James on the floor ... but the Nets are about the same when Kyrie is on the floor, while the Lakers are more like a 64-win team. We might argue the Lakers would be better without LeBron if they actually had a viable PG on the roster, but Jrue Holiday for instance does not make them a 64-win team.

There are lots of ways a player can make his team better through his own actions on the floor, with defense, by playmaking, or by just doing what the coaching staff wants (moving the ball, setting screens, rebounding, boxing out, running the system, etc, etc).
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#76 » by Stillwater » Thu Sep 3, 2020 8:46 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
While I have little faith in their talent evaluation + decision making, it's always possible they get something right or just get lucky.

Takes a lot of patience to find out ... heck, we're still discovering whether a player that demonstrated super-star potential as a rookie like Kyrie Irving actually makes his team better when he's on the floor let alone whether he can stay healthy.

thats an intersting take...since players of similar build and skill rarely ever make their teams better and Kyrie is probably the best under the rim scorer in NBA history so if he doesnt make his team better its because noone is expecting him too even try to sinnce they aint even close to being on his level as a scorer and would always be the lesser option so he absolutely will be the first option in his head all day long on a team void of other at least similar level scorers. Unlike Lebron who can dominate both sides of the ball create massive amounts of offense for role players due to the attention he gets and yet still hasnt won it all without a player like Kyrie or Wade


You may be putting more emphasis on the word "make" then I am. For instance I think Kemba is making the Celtics a better team by being willing to do less which allows his teammates to do more. I'm also not taking a championship or bust approach here either.

The Nets and Lakers are roughly .500 teams without Kyrie and James on the floor ... but the Nets are about the same when Kyrie is on the floor, while the Lakers are more like a 64-win team. We might argue the Lakers would be better without LeBron if they actually had a viable PG on the roster, but Jrue Holiday for instance does not make them a 64-win team.

There are lots of ways a player can make his team better through his own actions on the floor, with defense, by playmaking, or by just doing what the coaching staff wants (moving the ball, setting screens, rebounding, boxing out, running the system, etc, etc).

imo these gms knowing its a star driven league are almost always trying to find the next big thing unless they are already a playoff team using lottery picks from other orgs as trade bait or in the rare instance the top 3 players are either moved on or injured and you have the worst record in the nba after having the best for several seasons...
My point is even though building a roster should be the gm and scouts finding pieces that fit together to build a SAS type basketball team, most orgs including this one are just putting whomever the BPA lottery pick on their bb is in the strarting line up without earning it but bringing the one who was earning it and picked at 30 off the bench...
They do things most of the time based on value retention in addition to player development and winning eventually.
Garland for example is nothing like they had hoped even if he turns out much better than he was in year one which would be a damn shame and a bust if he didnt no matter how much Koby tries to justify it away due to age lack of college level experience and coming off an injury that had already sidelined him for a long time before ever being drafted.
I think whomever they see as the biggest potential to give them someone elite at something anything they willl jump on it even if 3 or 4 much more skilled prospects are sitting in front of them but dont have that appaerent potential even some might.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#77 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:16 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:thats an intersting take...since players of similar build and skill rarely ever make their teams better and Kyrie is probably the best under the rim scorer in NBA history so if he doesnt make his team better its because noone is expecting him too even try to sinnce they aint even close to being on his level as a scorer and would always be the lesser option so he absolutely will be the first option in his head all day long on a team void of other at least similar level scorers. Unlike Lebron who can dominate both sides of the ball create massive amounts of offense for role players due to the attention he gets and yet still hasnt won it all without a player like Kyrie or Wade


You may be putting more emphasis on the word "make" then I am. For instance I think Kemba is making the Celtics a better team by being willing to do less which allows his teammates to do more. I'm also not taking a championship or bust approach here either.

The Nets and Lakers are roughly .500 teams without Kyrie and James on the floor ... but the Nets are about the same when Kyrie is on the floor, while the Lakers are more like a 64-win team. We might argue the Lakers would be better without LeBron if they actually had a viable PG on the roster, but Jrue Holiday for instance does not make them a 64-win team.

There are lots of ways a player can make his team better through his own actions on the floor, with defense, by playmaking, or by just doing what the coaching staff wants (moving the ball, setting screens, rebounding, boxing out, running the system, etc, etc).

imo these gms knowing its a star driven league are almost always trying to find the next big thing unless they are already a playoff team using lottery picks from other orgs as trade bait or in the rare instance the top 3 players are either moved on or injured and you have the worst record in the nba after having the best for several seasons...
My point is even though building a roster should be the gm and scouts finding pieces that fit together to build a SAS type basketball team, most orgs including this one are just putting whomever the BPA lottery pick on their bb is in the strarting line up without earning it but bringing the one who was earning it and picked at 30 off the bench...
They do things most of the time based on value retention in addition to player development and winning eventually.
Garland for example is nothing like they had hoped even if he turns out much better than he was in year one which would be a damn shame and a bust if he didnt no matter how much Koby tries to justify it away due to age lack of college level experience and coming off an injury that had already sidelined him for a long time before ever being drafted.
I think whomever they see as the biggest potential to give them someone elite at something anything they willl jump on it even if 3 or 4 much more skilled prospects are sitting in front of them but dont have that appaerent potential even some might.


What makes you think the Cavs consider Garland a disappointment?

Of course they hope any player they draft makes an instant splash, but rookie seasons can be brutal enough for a 19 year old without coming in out of shape off an injury.
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#78 » by Stillwater » Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:54 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
You may be putting more emphasis on the word "make" then I am. For instance I think Kemba is making the Celtics a better team by being willing to do less which allows his teammates to do more. I'm also not taking a championship or bust approach here either.

The Nets and Lakers are roughly .500 teams without Kyrie and James on the floor ... but the Nets are about the same when Kyrie is on the floor, while the Lakers are more like a 64-win team. We might argue the Lakers would be better without LeBron if they actually had a viable PG on the roster, but Jrue Holiday for instance does not make them a 64-win team.

There are lots of ways a player can make his team better through his own actions on the floor, with defense, by playmaking, or by just doing what the coaching staff wants (moving the ball, setting screens, rebounding, boxing out, running the system, etc, etc).

imo these gms knowing its a star driven league are almost always trying to find the next big thing unless they are already a playoff team using lottery picks from other orgs as trade bait or in the rare instance the top 3 players are either moved on or injured and you have the worst record in the nba after having the best for several seasons...
My point is even though building a roster should be the gm and scouts finding pieces that fit together to build a SAS type basketball team, most orgs including this one are just putting whomever the BPA lottery pick on their bb is in the strarting line up without earning it but bringing the one who was earning it and picked at 30 off the bench...
They do things most of the time based on value retention in addition to player development and winning eventually.
Garland for example is nothing like they had hoped even if he turns out much better than he was in year one which would be a damn shame and a bust if he didnt no matter how much Koby tries to justify it away due to age lack of college level experience and coming off an injury that had already sidelined him for a long time before ever being drafted.
I think whomever they see as the biggest potential to give them someone elite at something anything they willl jump on it even if 3 or 4 much more skilled prospects are sitting in front of them but dont have that appaerent potential even some might.


What makes you think the Cavs consider Garland a disappointment?

Of course they hope any player they draft makes an instant splash, but rookie seasons can be brutal enough for a 19 year old without coming in out of shape off an injury.

I am not sold they even recognize they should be disappointed in themselves if nothing else...I mean the guy they picked at 30 is better out of the gate and has more upside than the one they took at 5.
There is really nothing that DG showed predraft that indicated he will be a star in this league, so why would they have looked at him like one unless they were convinced he was something he isnt?
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now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#79 » by jbk1234 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:11 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:lol yeah I just know they are gonna reach on some offensive prospect


While I have little faith in their talent evaluation + decision making, it's always possible they get something right or just get lucky.

Takes a lot of patience to find out ... heck, we're still discovering whether a player that demonstrated super-star potential as a rookie like Kyrie Irving actually makes his team better when he's on the floor let alone whether he can stay healthy.

thats an intersting take...since players of similar build and skill rarely ever make their teams better and Kyrie is probably the best under the rim scorer in NBA history so if he doesnt make his team better its because noone is expecting him too even try to sinnce they aint even close to being on his level as a scorer and would always be the lesser option so he absolutely will be the first option in his head all day long on a team void of other at least similar level scorers. Unlike Lebron who can dominate both sides of the ball create massive amounts of offense for role players due to the attention he gets and yet still hasnt won it all without a player like Kyrie or Wade
Teams shouldn't build around high usage guards who don't make their teammates better, and they really shouldn't build around guards who actually make their teammates worse. The only reason Durant is willing to play with Kyrie is because he saw it work with LBJ, and the only reason it worked with LBJ is because LBJ physically removed the ball from Kyrie's hands at times.

I don't know where this idea comes from that you can seriously contend with a guy like Kyrie as your best piece. If he manages to contend with Durant, and I'm not at all certain they will, Kyrie will have only enjoyed post season success when he was on the same team with a top-3 player in the NBA.

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Re: A Drummond extension? 

Post#80 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 4, 2020 3:07 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
While I have little faith in their talent evaluation + decision making, it's always possible they get something right or just get lucky.

Takes a lot of patience to find out ... heck, we're still discovering whether a player that demonstrated super-star potential as a rookie like Kyrie Irving actually makes his team better when he's on the floor let alone whether he can stay healthy.

thats an intersting take...since players of similar build and skill rarely ever make their teams better and Kyrie is probably the best under the rim scorer in NBA history so if he doesnt make his team better its because noone is expecting him too even try to sinnce they aint even close to being on his level as a scorer and would always be the lesser option so he absolutely will be the first option in his head all day long on a team void of other at least similar level scorers. Unlike Lebron who can dominate both sides of the ball create massive amounts of offense for role players due to the attention he gets and yet still hasnt won it all without a player like Kyrie or Wade
Teams shouldn't build around high usage guards who don't make their teammates better, and they really shouldn't build around guards who actually make their teammates worse. The only reason Durant is willing to play with Kyrie is because he saw it work with LBJ, and the only reason it worked with LBJ is because LBJ physically removed the ball from Kyrie's hands at times.

I don't know where this idea comes from that you can seriously contend with a guy like Kyrie as your best piece. If he manages to contend with Durant, and I'm not at all certain they will, Kyrie will have only enjoyed post season success when he was on the same team with a top-3 player in the NBA.


I don't think Durant enjoyed playing in a structured system in Golden State and might enjoy more of a your turn / my turn approach in Brooklyn. The question then becomes how well will they involve the other 3 players on the floor, and do they care. They might get away with running some simple 2-man stuff and letting the other players focus on grabbing rebounds, and knock down open shots.

If KD and Kyrie return to near 100% and with the right mix of players and attitude they should contend, but I wouldn't count on them dominating the East.

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