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Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond

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JonFromVA
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#41 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:19 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:well with draft being pushed to Nov 18th I guess there is some hope they can get a combine in or at least allow private workouts...
Many GMs are probably pushing for it given the college season ended before the tournament started.
Honestly, private workouts are dicey. Absent an injury concern, I'm not sure they add value.


They need everything they can get at this point.

I think it's also helpful when they can workout a group of prospects together, but presumably that's a no-go.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#42 » by jbk1234 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:24 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:well with draft being pushed to Nov 18th I guess there is some hope they can get a combine in or at least allow private workouts...
Many GMs are probably pushing for it given the college season ended before the tournament started.
Honestly, private workouts are dicey. Absent an injury concern, I'm not sure they add value.


They need everything they can get at this point.

I think it's also helpful when they can workout a group of prospects together, but presumably that's a no-go.


I'm not convinced those one-on-none workouts are helpful when evaluating players. You can walk away with a false sense of security because the guy isn't being guarded.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#43 » by Stillwater » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:50 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Honestly, private workouts are dicey. Absent an injury concern, I'm not sure they add value.


They need everything they can get at this point.

I think it's also helpful when they can workout a group of prospects together, but presumably that's a no-go.


I'm not convinced those one-on-none workouts are helpful when evaluating players. You can walk away with a false sense of security because the guy isn't being guarded.

yeah the one on none bs like the Garland workout is a bad choice, but the usual plan is the prospect is brought in with a couple others and they workout against eathother. & they get to get a in person feel for the kid which helps determine more. I think they have to at least get cavs medical staff to sign off or they should pass on anyone they are not sure about. Garland and WIndler are already potentially headed towards becoming injury prone so avoiding the testing or ignoring the unknown could be a devastating mistake.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#44 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:02 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
They need everything they can get at this point.

I think it's also helpful when they can workout a group of prospects together, but presumably that's a no-go.


I'm not convinced those one-on-none workouts are helpful when evaluating players. You can walk away with a false sense of security because the guy isn't being guarded.


yeah the one on none bs like the Garland workout is a bad choice, but the usual plan is the prospect is brought in with a couple others and they workout against eathother. & they get to get a in person feel for the kid which helps determine more. I think they have to at least get cavs medical staff to sign off or they should pass on anyone they are not sure about. Garland and WIndler are already potentially headed towards becoming injury prone so avoiding the testing or ignoring the unknown could be a devastating mistake.


In Garland's case, I'm sure the Cavs would insist that the 1 on 1 just confirmed their thoughts about him. They've said they were interested in him beforehand but just didn't think he'd be available when the Lakers were at 4.

But regardless of all that, it's still another case to meet, talk, and interact with the player rather than rely on what other people might tell them.

For instance, I'd be far more leery of repeating with what we did with Dion Waiters where we knew very little about him beyond what Syracuse's coaching staff told us. No matter the personal relationship, they had every reason to focus on the positive things about their player, because getting Dion drafted #5 helps them recruit.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#45 » by Stillwater » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:20 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I'm not convinced those one-on-none workouts are helpful when evaluating players. You can walk away with a false sense of security because the guy isn't being guarded.


yeah the one on none bs like the Garland workout is a bad choice, but the usual plan is the prospect is brought in with a couple others and they workout against eathother. & they get to get a in person feel for the kid which helps determine more. I think they have to at least get cavs medical staff to sign off or they should pass on anyone they are not sure about. Garland and WIndler are already potentially headed towards becoming injury prone so avoiding the testing or ignoring the unknown could be a devastating mistake.


In Garland's case, I'm sure the Cavs would insist that the 1 on 1 just confirmed their thoughts about him. They've said they were interested in him beforehand but just didn't think he'd be available when the Lakers were at 4.

But regardless of all that, it's still another case to meet, talk, and interact with the player rather than rely on what other people might tell them.

For instance, I'd be far more leery of repeating with what we did with Dion Waiters where we knew very little about him beyond what Syracuse's coaching staff told us. No matter the personal relationship, they had every reason to focus on the positive things about their player, because getting Dion drafted #5 helps them recruit.

Yeah nobody is suggesting Garland was not high on their board until after the one on none workout, and he did shoot an alarmingly high % with nobody on him ( sort of like his buddy Nesmith) that last part was a joke...
But the truth is no single workout shooting % good or bad should make you decide one way or the other if its not a live game simulation unless its a much different outcome than you expected...I mean knowing how high he was on their board might not have been as much as you think and all they liked about him if you think they'd still pick him if he threw bricks in the one on none I dont know what to tell you.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#46 » by Revenged25 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:02 am

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
yeah the one on none bs like the Garland workout is a bad choice, but the usual plan is the prospect is brought in with a couple others and they workout against eathother. & they get to get a in person feel for the kid which helps determine more. I think they have to at least get cavs medical staff to sign off or they should pass on anyone they are not sure about. Garland and WIndler are already potentially headed towards becoming injury prone so avoiding the testing or ignoring the unknown could be a devastating mistake.


In Garland's case, I'm sure the Cavs would insist that the 1 on 1 just confirmed their thoughts about him. They've said they were interested in him beforehand but just didn't think he'd be available when the Lakers were at 4.

But regardless of all that, it's still another case to meet, talk, and interact with the player rather than rely on what other people might tell them.

For instance, I'd be far more leery of repeating with what we did with Dion Waiters where we knew very little about him beyond what Syracuse's coaching staff told us. No matter the personal relationship, they had every reason to focus on the positive things about their player, because getting Dion drafted #5 helps them recruit.

Yeah nobody is suggesting Garland was not high on their board until after the one on none workout, and he did shoot an alarmingly high % with nobody on him ( sort of like his buddy Nesmith) that last part was a joke...
But the truth is no single workout shooting % good or bad should make you decide one way or the other if its not a live game simulation unless its a much different outcome than you expected...I mean knowing how high he was on their board might not have been as much as you think and all they liked about him if you think they'd still pick him if he threw bricks in the one on none I dont know what to tell you.


Pretty sure the only thing the one-on-none workout could've done was hurt his positioning if he shot poorly while shooting as well as he did simply confirmed where they had him in their eyes.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#47 » by Stillwater » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:06 am

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
In Garland's case, I'm sure the Cavs would insist that the 1 on 1 just confirmed their thoughts about him. They've said they were interested in him beforehand but just didn't think he'd be available when the Lakers were at 4.

But regardless of all that, it's still another case to meet, talk, and interact with the player rather than rely on what other people might tell them.

For instance, I'd be far more leery of repeating with what we did with Dion Waiters where we knew very little about him beyond what Syracuse's coaching staff told us. No matter the personal relationship, they had every reason to focus on the positive things about their player, because getting Dion drafted #5 helps them recruit.

Yeah nobody is suggesting Garland was not high on their board until after the one on none workout, and he did shoot an alarmingly high % with nobody on him ( sort of like his buddy Nesmith) that last part was a joke...
But the truth is no single workout shooting % good or bad should make you decide one way or the other if its not a live game simulation unless its a much different outcome than you expected...I mean knowing how high he was on their board might not have been as much as you think and all they liked about him if you think they'd still pick him if he threw bricks in the one on none I dont know what to tell you.


Pretty sure the only thing the one-on-none workout could've done was hurt his positioning if he shot poorly while shooting as well as he did simply confirmed where they had him in their eyes.

could be...but if one on none workouts dont mean anything of real value than why would it steer them either way???
Personally think they did overvalue his shooting in that workout because he never showed that in HS or his short stint in college and nobody expected him to be a high % shooter.Turns out he isnt when defended
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#48 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:25 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Yeah nobody is suggesting Garland was not high on their board until after the one on none workout, and he did shoot an alarmingly high % with nobody on him ( sort of like his buddy Nesmith) that last part was a joke...
But the truth is no single workout shooting % good or bad should make you decide one way or the other if its not a live game simulation unless its a much different outcome than you expected...I mean knowing how high he was on their board might not have been as much as you think and all they liked about him if you think they'd still pick him if he threw bricks in the one on none I dont know what to tell you.


Pretty sure the only thing the one-on-none workout could've done was hurt his positioning if he shot poorly while shooting as well as he did simply confirmed where they had him in their eyes.

could be...but if one on none workouts dont mean anything of real value than why would it steer them either way???
Personally think they did overvalue his shooting in that workout because he never showed that in HS or his short stint in college and nobody expected him to be a high % shooter.Turns out he isnt when defended


To the comment I bolded, what exactly are you talking about? When hasn't Garland shown he can shoot and shoot with deep range?

IMO, Darius will have an easier time finding space to shoot his 3's when defenders respect his driving ability more. There's no "triple threat" until a player can shoot, pass, and drive effectively. If he becomes great at that, then he can become a Lillard/Curry style player who creates offense just because of his threat-level on the floor; but he doesn't need to become that to be an effective PG.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#49 » by Stillwater » Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:39 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Pretty sure the only thing the one-on-none workout could've done was hurt his positioning if he shot poorly while shooting as well as he did simply confirmed where they had him in their eyes.

could be...but if one on none workouts dont mean anything of real value than why would it steer them either way???
Personally think they did overvalue his shooting in that workout because he never showed that in HS or his short stint in college and nobody expected him to be a high % shooter.Turns out he isnt when defended


To the comment I bolded, what exactly are you talking about? When hasn't Garland shown he can shoot and shoot with deep range?

IMO, Darius will have an easier time finding space to shoot his 3's when defenders respect his driving ability more. There's no "triple threat" until a player can shoot, pass, and drive effectively. If he becomes great at that, then he can become a Lillard/Curry style player who creates offense just because of his threat-level on the floor; but he doesn't need to become that to be an effective PG.

He was never considered a legit 3 level scorer in HS but there was a lot of hype around him as a floor general
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#50 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:41 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:could be...but if one on none workouts dont mean anything of real value than why would it steer them either way???
Personally think they did overvalue his shooting in that workout because he never showed that in HS or his short stint in college and nobody expected him to be a high % shooter.Turns out he isnt when defended


To the comment I bolded, what exactly are you talking about? When hasn't Garland shown he can shoot and shoot with deep range?

IMO, Darius will have an easier time finding space to shoot his 3's when defenders respect his driving ability more. There's no "triple threat" until a player can shoot, pass, and drive effectively. If he becomes great at that, then he can become a Lillard/Curry style player who creates offense just because of his threat-level on the floor; but he doesn't need to become that to be an effective PG.


He was never considered a legit 3 level scorer in HS but there was a lot of hype around him as a floor general


Never considered by who (other than you)?

Example: Red Team Scouting ... https://www.redteamscouting.com/darius-garland-role

Strengths
Extremely skilled ball handler
Playmaker who elevates his teammates
Strong, confident jump shooter with NBA+ range
Quick lateral movement
Smart, high-level decision maker

Weaknesses
Frame and length limit defensive impact
Struggles to finish through contact
Can coast off-ball defensively
Not a strong rebounder
Will be coming back from knee injury

Offensive role projection -
Initiator, off-ball threat

Some point guards are able to use a tight dribble to protect the ball. Others are deft at using screens to keep defenders away. Still others use their body to keep defenders away from the ball. Garland excels at all three, a truly special ball-handler. A savvy manipulator of the pick-and-roll, Garland can use his dribble to get off a high-level shot against all sorts of defenders. He creates space with his dribble and can easily transition into a well-balanced jumper with the newly-created space. His variety of shots include a step back, pulling up on a dime, or breaking for the rim. He can get to the rim easily and finish well with either hand, although his lack of size means he struggles to finish through contact. His floater game is also inconsistent, an area for him to work on. Garland’s skill at creating his own shot should not mask his elite passing ability, although he does at times hunt his own shot.


We're not surprised that 6'2" 170lb that he wasn't yamming on opponents like Russell Westbrook are we?
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#51 » by Stillwater » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:09 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
To the comment I bolded, what exactly are you talking about? When hasn't Garland shown he can shoot and shoot with deep range?

IMO, Darius will have an easier time finding space to shoot his 3's when defenders respect his driving ability more. There's no "triple threat" until a player can shoot, pass, and drive effectively. If he becomes great at that, then he can become a Lillard/Curry style player who creates offense just because of his threat-level on the floor; but he doesn't need to become that to be an effective PG.


He was never considered a legit 3 level scorer in HS but there was a lot of hype around him as a floor general


Never considered by who (other than you)?

Example: Red Team Scouting ... https://www.redteamscouting.com/darius-garland-role

Strengths
Extremely skilled ball handler
Playmaker who elevates his teammates
Strong, confident jump shooter with NBA+ range
Quick lateral movement
Smart, high-level decision maker

Weaknesses
Frame and length limit defensive impact
Struggles to finish through contact
Can coast off-ball defensively
Not a strong rebounder
Will be coming back from knee injury

Offensive role projection -
Initiator, off-ball threat

Some point guards are able to use a tight dribble to protect the ball. Others are deft at using screens to keep defenders away. Still others use their body to keep defenders away from the ball. Garland excels at all three, a truly special ball-handler. A savvy manipulator of the pick-and-roll, Garland can use his dribble to get off a high-level shot against all sorts of defenders. He creates space with his dribble and can easily transition into a well-balanced jumper with the newly-created space. His variety of shots include a step back, pulling up on a dime, or breaking for the rim. He can get to the rim easily and finish well with either hand, although his lack of size means he struggles to finish through contact. His floater game is also inconsistent, an area for him to work on. Garland’s skill at creating his own shot should not mask his elite passing ability, although he does at times hunt his own shot.


We're not surprised that 6'2" 170lb that he wasn't yamming on opponents like Russell Westbrook are we?

His finishing ability was always going to be an issue at the next level until he gets stronger and it was only the over optimistic reviews that said otherwise.
IDK what you are trying to imply here, but his weakness they list are far more concerning as a prospect than their list of strengths.
Regardless they probably choked on this selection no matter what scouting reports you believe. What I saw predraft was a decent shooter in space and a pg that could create some offense in the pick and roll against meh defenses. I also saw a red flag area athletically and esp post injury despite it being a common injury. I also saw a lot less of the claimed playmaking ability whenver his shot wasnt falling.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#52 » by Stillwater » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:20 pm

just for the record imo garland needs to become like Trae Young ,Curry or similar guards who generate a ton of offense but more importantly are elite at drawing fake contact jacking up bombs. But like we see with Harden you wont gets those calls in the post season so you better be making those contested bombs at a high clip. Then maybe he can start in the NBA for somebody. Personaly dont like any player that just has no chance to be a defensive impact option not even his morror 1 guard. That is unless they bring that much offense where you dont care. Who knows what the Cavs plans are regarding him, I would love for him to come out this season and look like the prospect so many though he could be, but he played an unearned full season and came off looking like the bust of the top 10.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
JonFromVA
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#53 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
He was never considered a legit 3 level scorer in HS but there was a lot of hype around him as a floor general


Never considered by who (other than you)?

Example: Red Team Scouting ... https://www.redteamscouting.com/darius-garland-role

Strengths
Extremely skilled ball handler
Playmaker who elevates his teammates
Strong, confident jump shooter with NBA+ range
Quick lateral movement
Smart, high-level decision maker

Weaknesses
Frame and length limit defensive impact
Struggles to finish through contact
Can coast off-ball defensively
Not a strong rebounder
Will be coming back from knee injury

Offensive role projection -
Initiator, off-ball threat

Some point guards are able to use a tight dribble to protect the ball. Others are deft at using screens to keep defenders away. Still others use their body to keep defenders away from the ball. Garland excels at all three, a truly special ball-handler. A savvy manipulator of the pick-and-roll, Garland can use his dribble to get off a high-level shot against all sorts of defenders. He creates space with his dribble and can easily transition into a well-balanced jumper with the newly-created space. His variety of shots include a step back, pulling up on a dime, or breaking for the rim. He can get to the rim easily and finish well with either hand, although his lack of size means he struggles to finish through contact. His floater game is also inconsistent, an area for him to work on. Garland’s skill at creating his own shot should not mask his elite passing ability, although he does at times hunt his own shot.


We're not surprised that 6'2" 170lb that he wasn't yamming on opponents like Russell Westbrook are we?

His finishing ability was always going to be an issue at the next level until he gets stronger and it was only the over optimistic reviews that said otherwise.

IDK what you are trying to imply here, but his weakness they list are far more concerning as a prospect than their list of strengths.
Regardless they probably choked on this selection no matter what scouting reports you believe. What I saw predraft was a decent shooter in space and a pg that could create some offense in the pick and roll against meh defenses. I also saw a red flag area athletically and esp post injury despite it being a common injury. I also saw a lot less of the claimed playmaking ability whenver his shot wasnt falling.


Still - when you state things as generalities and those generalities don't seem to make any sense, people are going to ask you what you're talking about. Who are all these people who agreed with you? What are the links/quotes? When you make it clear you're stating your own opinion like you did in this reply it eliminates a lot of confusion and unnecessary back and forth.

You have said numerous times you think the only thing Garland can do is shoot when left wide open. The scouting report I referenced shows he can run the triple threat with the qualification that he's not going to finish through contact.

Is that really a big problem?

I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head: 1) get stronger, 2) work on a floater,/pullup, 3) pull opposing bigs out of the paint.

Every player has weaknesses and many of those weaknesses will need to be addressed if a player is going to be able to contribute to winning. That's a given. What I find odd is that you struggle to see the upside of a young PG with Darius's list of accomplishments. Drafting a player based on little more than high-school, AAU, EYBL, McDonalds, TeamUSA, is not some new kind of concept. It's what NBA teams had to do before the one and done rule.

But whatever, you have problems. A lot of other people do not and think he's a high-level prospect.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#54 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:12 pm

Stillwater wrote:just for the record imo garland needs to become like Trae Young ,Curry or similar guards who generate a ton of offense but more importantly are elite at drawing fake contact jacking up bombs. But like we see with Harden you wont gets those calls in the post season so you better be making those contested bombs at a high clip. Then maybe he can start in the NBA for somebody. Personaly dont like any player that just has no chance to be a defensive impact option not even his morror 1 guard. That is unless they bring that much offense where you dont care. Who knows what the Cavs plans are regarding him, I would love for him to come out this season and look like the prospect so many though he could be, but he played an unearned full season and came off looking like the bust of the top 10.


Not sure how you've determined Garland will never be good on defense. Young players struggle with it, and it only makes matters worse if not put in to a system where they're the only weak link.

Personally, I'm more worried about Collin who hasn't had to deal with a major injury, has always been in great shape, has a year under his belt and still gets completely lost on defense at times. Garland gives solid effort and seems to know where he's supposed to be and just gets bullied by bigger players at times.

The Cavs were giving up 119.7 points per 100 when Collin was on the floor this season. That's worst on the team for players who played more than 7 games (Drummond :o).
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#55 » by Stillwater » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:53 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Never considered by who (other than you)?

Example: Red Team Scouting ... https://www.redteamscouting.com/darius-garland-role



We're not surprised that 6'2" 170lb that he wasn't yamming on opponents like Russell Westbrook are we?

His finishing ability was always going to be an issue at the next level until he gets stronger and it was only the over optimistic reviews that said otherwise.

IDK what you are trying to imply here, but his weakness they list are far more concerning as a prospect than their list of strengths.
Regardless they probably choked on this selection no matter what scouting reports you believe. What I saw predraft was a decent shooter in space and a pg that could create some offense in the pick and roll against meh defenses. I also saw a red flag area athletically and esp post injury despite it being a common injury. I also saw a lot less of the claimed playmaking ability whenver his shot wasnt falling.


Still - when you state things as generalities and those generalities don't seem to make any sense, people are going to ask you what you're talking about. Who are all these people who agreed with you? What are the links/quotes? When you make it clear you're stating your own opinion like you did in this reply it eliminates a lot of confusion and unnecessary back and forth.

You have said numerous times you think the only thing Garland can do is shoot when left wide open. The scouting report I referenced shows he can run the triple threat with the qualification that he's not going to finish through contact.

Is that really a big problem?

I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head: 1) get stronger, 2) work on a floater,/pullup, 3) pull opposing bigs out of the paint.

Every player has weaknesses and many of those weaknesses will need to be addressed if a player is going to be able to contribute to winning. That's a given. What I find odd is that you struggle to see the upside of a young PG with Darius's list of accomplishments. Drafting a player based on little more than high-school, AAU, EYBL, McDonalds, TeamUSA, is not some new kind of concept. It's what NBA teams had to do before the one and done rule.

But whatever, you have problems. A lot of other people do not and think he's a high-level prospect.

Your mixing pre draft opinion with my current opinion.
Anyway you would be lucky to find anyone that would redraft him at 5 and that should be enough for you given how you value media opinion but apparently its not.
There were prospects including KPJ that were higher value targets imo even though DG had his list of valuable skills that could have made the pick the right one but didn't transfer. Garland might be a reasonably solid pro if his shot starts falling at a much higher clip like the 47% he shot in 5 meaningless games at Vandy
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#56 » by JonFromVA » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:32 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:His finishing ability was always going to be an issue at the next level until he gets stronger and it was only the over optimistic reviews that said otherwise.

IDK what you are trying to imply here, but his weakness they list are far more concerning as a prospect than their list of strengths.
Regardless they probably choked on this selection no matter what scouting reports you believe. What I saw predraft was a decent shooter in space and a pg that could create some offense in the pick and roll against meh defenses. I also saw a red flag area athletically and esp post injury despite it being a common injury. I also saw a lot less of the claimed playmaking ability whenver his shot wasnt falling.


Still - when you state things as generalities and those generalities don't seem to make any sense, people are going to ask you what you're talking about. Who are all these people who agreed with you? What are the links/quotes? When you make it clear you're stating your own opinion like you did in this reply it eliminates a lot of confusion and unnecessary back and forth.

You have said numerous times you think the only thing Garland can do is shoot when left wide open. The scouting report I referenced shows he can run the triple threat with the qualification that he's not going to finish through contact.

Is that really a big problem?

I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head: 1) get stronger, 2) work on a floater,/pullup, 3) pull opposing bigs out of the paint.

Every player has weaknesses and many of those weaknesses will need to be addressed if a player is going to be able to contribute to winning. That's a given. What I find odd is that you struggle to see the upside of a young PG with Darius's list of accomplishments. Drafting a player based on little more than high-school, AAU, EYBL, McDonalds, TeamUSA, is not some new kind of concept. It's what NBA teams had to do before the one and done rule.

But whatever, you have problems. A lot of other people do not and think he's a high-level prospect.

Your mixing pre draft opinion with my current opinion.
Anyway you would be lucky to find anyone that would redraft him at 5 and that should be enough for you given how you value media opinion but apparently its not.
There were prospects including KPJ that were higher value targets imo even though DG had his list of valuable skills that could have made the pick the right one but didn't transfer. Garland might be a reasonably solid pro if his shot starts falling at a much higher clip like the 47% he shot in 5 meaningless games at Vandy


I bring up media opinions as counter-points to your generalities. If you want to stick to your own opinions, I have no problem sticking to mine.

Which btw, is that 35% from 3pt is perfectly acceptable considering what Darius was dealing with as a rookie. Gotta have your legs to shoot 3's consistently, and Darius was not in NBA shape to begin the season, and certainly not adapted to an 82game season.

Do you have his 3pt shooting numbers from high-school? I've looked and could only find his overall FG% which was like > 50%, which itself is no small thing for a guard.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#57 » by Stillwater » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Still - when you state things as generalities and those generalities don't seem to make any sense, people are going to ask you what you're talking about. Who are all these people who agreed with you? What are the links/quotes? When you make it clear you're stating your own opinion like you did in this reply it eliminates a lot of confusion and unnecessary back and forth.

You have said numerous times you think the only thing Garland can do is shoot when left wide open. The scouting report I referenced shows he can run the triple threat with the qualification that he's not going to finish through contact.

Is that really a big problem?

I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head: 1) get stronger, 2) work on a floater,/pullup, 3) pull opposing bigs out of the paint.

Every player has weaknesses and many of those weaknesses will need to be addressed if a player is going to be able to contribute to winning. That's a given. What I find odd is that you struggle to see the upside of a young PG with Darius's list of accomplishments. Drafting a player based on little more than high-school, AAU, EYBL, McDonalds, TeamUSA, is not some new kind of concept. It's what NBA teams had to do before the one and done rule.

But whatever, you have problems. A lot of other people do not and think he's a high-level prospect.

Your mixing pre draft opinion with my current opinion.
Anyway you would be lucky to find anyone that would redraft him at 5 and that should be enough for you given how you value media opinion but apparently its not.
There were prospects including KPJ that were higher value targets imo even though DG had his list of valuable skills that could have made the pick the right one but didn't transfer. Garland might be a reasonably solid pro if his shot starts falling at a much higher clip like the 47% he shot in 5 meaningless games at Vandy


I bring up media opinions as counter-points to your generalities. If you want to stick to your own opinions, I have no problem sticking to mine.

Which btw, is that 35% from 3pt is perfectly acceptable considering what Darius was dealing with as a rookie. Gotta have your legs to shoot 3's consistently, and Darius was not in NBA shape to begin the season, and certainly not adapted to an 82game season.

Do you have his 3pt shooting numbers from high-school? I've looked and could only find his overall FG% which was like > 50%, which itself is no small thing for a guard.

not getting personal here with the generalities bs so let that go...
I will tell you that I dont hate DG as a 6th man type which is exactly what I saw him as pre draft and what he might be able to achieve but at this point not even sure I am confident he can be that .
at the time of the pick my only gripe was I just liked others ahead of him at the time of the draft for fit esp and also for upside on this roster esp given my faith in Sextons development as a lead ball ahndler despite few opinions matching that and lets be honest ...I was right to think that.
So I did not like the idea of another 1 way combo guard who was undersized to get it done defensively outside of his mirror...
and the real kicker is DG had less speed length and athleticism as the one the Cavs already had in Sexton who at least has the physical ability and length to handle some switches as his BBIQ increases defensively etc etc.

Garland should not be a starting pg in the NBA until he earns it...not just based on what we saw from him in his 1 season in the NBA, but because he maybe never should have been targetted as such given his ball handling strengths and ability to get his shot off by creating space was always his greatest attribute esp if the shot starts falling. If it doesnt start falling what is he? a meh defender a meh scoring threat and a avg at best distributor because nobody will be open except him when he is the ball handler.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#58 » by Stillwater » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:32 pm

Roster 20-21
Losses: TT,Delly, Zizic,Osman,McKinnie,Wade.
Here is the mock where CLE trades down 2 times:
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/773380/

First they agree to pass on Melo and trade down with NY where
they get the Dallas 21 1st from NY for Osman & eating 1 season of DSJ and they get 8 and 38 for 5th.

Then they trade 8th Mckinnie and Wade to NOP who want Obi for rim runner protector Jaxson Hayes and 13th overall where CLE then drafts Jalen Smith stretch 4-5 who will compliment Hayes longterm.

Then they agree to s/t TT to ORL who just traded Vuc to GSW for #2 to draft Wiseman for the future in turn ORL agrees to S/T Okeke ( still not fully recovered) and 17th overall pick
where Cavs draft sharpshooter Nesmith or maybe the FL ST prospect WIlliams is higher on their board.

note at 38 is where the Cavs get the steal of the draft if he proves to be the real deal in a couple seasons
in Tyrell Terry who at this point is even weaker than Garland but has that clutch gene Garland hasnt shown yet.

last they take a iflier on an interesting prospect to stash in Vit Krejci who can play multiple positions back and front court ,create offense and maybe be an
Osman replacement with more time.

post draft and s/t of TT & Okeke swap:

Sexton Garland DSJ KPJ Terry
KPJ Exum Nesmith Sexton Garland
Okeke Nance WIndler KPJ Nesmith
Love Nance Smith Okeke
Dre Nance Hayes Smith
Bell as 15th man or maybe Terry
2-ways= probably Terry and ? :
Maybe nobody so there is an open spot or:
Krejci if brought over right away is 17th man but should be stashed a year.
if not some UDFA probably

Cavs flip Dre at the dl esp if he wont committ to a cheaper deal long term
hope that Garland has some trade value if he gets disgruntled or plays so well he takes the pg role.
maybe can also flip Exum at the dl and if Sexton doesnt continue his trajectory , sell high before anyone notices.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#59 » by JonFromVA » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:30 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Your mixing pre draft opinion with my current opinion.
Anyway you would be lucky to find anyone that would redraft him at 5 and that should be enough for you given how you value media opinion but apparently its not.
There were prospects including KPJ that were higher value targets imo even though DG had his list of valuable skills that could have made the pick the right one but didn't transfer. Garland might be a reasonably solid pro if his shot starts falling at a much higher clip like the 47% he shot in 5 meaningless games at Vandy


I bring up media opinions as counter-points to your generalities. If you want to stick to your own opinions, I have no problem sticking to mine.

Which btw, is that 35% from 3pt is perfectly acceptable considering what Darius was dealing with as a rookie. Gotta have your legs to shoot 3's consistently, and Darius was not in NBA shape to begin the season, and certainly not adapted to an 82game season.

Do you have his 3pt shooting numbers from high-school? I've looked and could only find his overall FG% which was like > 50%, which itself is no small thing for a guard.

not getting personal here with the generalities bs so let that go...
I will tell you that I dont hate DG as a 6th man type which is exactly what I saw him as pre draft and what he might be able to achieve but at this point not even sure I am confident he can be that .
at the time of the pick my only gripe was I just liked others ahead of him at the time of the draft for fit esp and also for upside on this roster esp given my faith in Sextons development as a lead ball ahndler despite few opinions matching that and lets be honest ...I was right to think that.
So I did not like the idea of another 1 way combo guard who was undersized to get it done defensively outside of his mirror...
and the real kicker is DG had less speed length and athleticism as the one the Cavs already had in Sexton who at least has the physical ability and length to handle some switches as his BBIQ increases defensively etc etc.

Garland should not be a starting pg in the NBA until he earns it...not just based on what we saw from him in his 1 season in the NBA, but because he maybe never should have been targetted as such given his ball handling strengths and ability to get his shot off by creating space was always his greatest attribute esp if the shot starts falling. If it doesnt start falling what is he? a meh defender a meh scoring threat and a avg at best distributor because nobody will be open except him when he is the ball handler.


You know what he is? A rook. A rook who was asked to focus on initiating the offense rather then working on his dribble-shoot game because Collin couldn't. He may turn out to be far more or far less than you imagine, but it takes time to find out.

The real question is whether he will be willing to work on the things he needs to do to advance his game ... and don't know why you don't see it ... but I think he's already demonstrated he will. Combined with his intelligence, attitude, bbiq, passing, dribbling, and shooting you should be spending less time worrying and more time anticipating.

I think you're seeing Darius as a repudiation of Collin, and hold that against him, but the Cavs talked to Collin before drafting Darius and he was excited to try to make it work.
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Re: Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond 

Post#60 » by Stillwater » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:36 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I bring up media opinions as counter-points to your generalities. If you want to stick to your own opinions, I have no problem sticking to mine.

Which btw, is that 35% from 3pt is perfectly acceptable considering what Darius was dealing with as a rookie. Gotta have your legs to shoot 3's consistently, and Darius was not in NBA shape to begin the season, and certainly not adapted to an 82game season.

Do you have his 3pt shooting numbers from high-school? I've looked and could only find his overall FG% which was like > 50%, which itself is no small thing for a guard.

not getting personal here with the generalities bs so let that go...
I will tell you that I dont hate DG as a 6th man type which is exactly what I saw him as pre draft and what he might be able to achieve but at this point not even sure I am confident he can be that .
at the time of the pick my only gripe was I just liked others ahead of him at the time of the draft for fit esp and also for upside on this roster esp given my faith in Sextons development as a lead ball ahndler despite few opinions matching that and lets be honest ...I was right to think that.
So I did not like the idea of another 1 way combo guard who was undersized to get it done defensively outside of his mirror...
and the real kicker is DG had less speed length and athleticism as the one the Cavs already had in Sexton who at least has the physical ability and length to handle some switches as his BBIQ increases defensively etc etc.

Garland should not be a starting pg in the NBA until he earns it...not just based on what we saw from him in his 1 season in the NBA, but because he maybe never should have been targetted as such given his ball handling strengths and ability to get his shot off by creating space was always his greatest attribute esp if the shot starts falling. If it doesnt start falling what is he? a meh defender a meh scoring threat and a avg at best distributor because nobody will be open except him when he is the ball handler.


You know what he is? A rook. A rook who was asked to focus on initiating the offense rather then working on his dribble-shoot game because Collin couldn't. He may turn out to be far more or far less than you imagine, but it takes time to find out.

The real question is whether he will be willing to work on the things he needs to do to advance his game ... and don't know why you don't see it ... but I think he's already demonstrated he will. Combined with his intelligence, attitude, bbiq, passing, dribbling, and shooting you should be spending less time worrying and more time anticipating.

I think you're seeing Darius as a repudiation of Collin, and hold that against him, but the Cavs talked to Collin before drafting Darius and he was excited to try to make it work.

Yeah I cannot figure out why you are so confident in his trajectory when he hasnt improved much since he was draft at all. I guess he gets a pass because he was thrown in the fire next to a ball dominant guard and add that he wasnt strong enough or healthy enough or maybe you can place blame on Beilein which would be more understandable.
In the end he is not better than Sexton has shown, and he definitely has to have a really impressive season to make up for his poor showing in yr 1. Some like yourself for whatever reason are still falling for his upside but the truth is he was drafted to be some high floor ball handler floor gen that could knock down shots in an emty gym and his overall skillset despite being solid for the 5th overall pick didnt come close to transfering to the pros. Maybe after a full offseason we will see the next phase and I can get on board with your optimism, right now I am just hoping he can become a rotation level pro.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater

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