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JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
It certainly seems like a better fit for him, and he just might be able to clean up their mess with the help of analytics. For instance, Simmons+Embiid have been very effective in certain lineups, so, he could certainly choose to not break them up and instead focus on the lineups which haven't been working.

The last time he was stuck with a really large contract for a player who was good but wasn't working out, he traded it for an even worse contract for a player who wasn't as good and added picks for the privilege. Now he's sitting there with Horford, Harris, and it's not entirely clearly his two *stars* fit together. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Again, everyone says the trade of Paul for Westbrook wasn't being driven by Morey, but rather Harden and Fertita.

I'm not even sure they have to trade any of their starters, because Simmons-Richardson-Harris-Horford-Embiid was an effective lineup. One way to go is focus on the lineup when Embiid is resting, and the lineup when Simmons is resting, and then have swappable players to deal with injuries. Might be as simple as playing their shooters with Simmons, and using Trey Burke and Richardson with Embiid.

At least that's what a quick look at the lineup data suggests.

Of course, that alone (if it worked) would just mean they win a bunch of regular season games. Getting out of the East means solving the matchups .vs. their playoff opponents, which is a whole other level of planning.

The advanced numbers, especially in the post season, with Embiid and Horford on the floor together were terrible.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
The last time he was stuck with a really large contract for a player who was good but wasn't working out, he traded it for an even worse contract for a player who wasn't as good and added picks for the privilege. Now he's sitting there with Horford, Harris, and it's not entirely clearly his two *stars* fit together. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Again, everyone says the trade of Paul for Westbrook wasn't being driven by Morey, but rather Harden and Fertita.

I'm not even sure they have to trade any of their starters, because Simmons-Richardson-Harris-Horford-Embiid was an effective lineup. One way to go is focus on the lineup when Embiid is resting, and the lineup when Simmons is resting, and then have swappable players to deal with injuries. Might be as simple as playing their shooters with Simmons, and using Trey Burke and Richardson with Embiid.

At least that's what a quick look at the lineup data suggests.

Of course, that alone (if it worked) would just mean they win a bunch of regular season games. Getting out of the East means solving the matchups .vs. their playoff opponents, which is a whole other level of planning.

The advanced numbers, especially in the post season, with Embiid and Horford on the floor together were terrible.

Neither Simmons nor Burke played in the playoffs. So, my assumptions based on the regular season lineups can be neither supported nor refuted with the playoff data. Of course Morey would presumably take more than a 5 second glance at lineup data before drawing conclusions, but the data may be telling him there are ways to make things work with tweaks rather than major changes. *shrugs*

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Again, everyone says the trade of Paul for Westbrook wasn't being driven by Morey, but rather Harden and Fertita.

I'm not even sure they have to trade any of their starters, because Simmons-Richardson-Harris-Horford-Embiid was an effective lineup. One way to go is focus on the lineup when Embiid is resting, and the lineup when Simmons is resting, and then have swappable players to deal with injuries. Might be as simple as playing their shooters with Simmons, and using Trey Burke and Richardson with Embiid.

At least that's what a quick look at the lineup data suggests.

Of course, that alone (if it worked) would just mean they win a bunch of regular season games. Getting out of the East means solving the matchups .vs. their playoff opponents, which is a whole other level of planning.

The advanced numbers, especially in the post season, with Embiid and Horford on the floor together were terrible.

Neither Simmons nor Burke played in the playoffs. So, my assumptions based on the regular season lineups can be neither supported nor refuted with the playoff data. Of course Morey would presumably take more than a 5 second glance at lineup data before drawing conclusions, but the data may be telling him there are ways to make things work with tweaks rather than major changes. *shrugs*

I really think Horford is cooked and at a place in the regression curve where he's quickly going to turn into Antuan Jamison 2.0.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
The advanced numbers, especially in the post season, with Embiid and Horford on the floor together were terrible.

Neither Simmons nor Burke played in the playoffs. So, my assumptions based on the regular season lineups can be neither supported nor refuted with the playoff data. Of course Morey would presumably take more than a 5 second glance at lineup data before drawing conclusions, but the data may be telling him there are ways to make things work with tweaks rather than major changes. *shrugs*

I really think Horford is cooked and at a place in the regression curve where he's quickly going to turn into Antuan Jamison 2.0.

He sure seemed that way at times, but it's possible he was just misused. His numbers are not what they were in Boston by any means, but they don't indicate he's "cooked" either.

With Morey in charge they won't miss something just because nobody in power cares what the numbers say.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Neither Simmons nor Burke played in the playoffs. So, my assumptions based on the regular season lineups can be neither supported nor refuted with the playoff data. Of course Morey would presumably take more than a 5 second glance at lineup data before drawing conclusions, but the data may be telling him there are ways to make things work with tweaks rather than major changes. *shrugs*

I really think Horford is cooked and at a place in the regression curve where he's quickly going to turn into Antuan Jamison 2.0.

He sure seemed that way at times, but it's possible he was just misused. His numbers are not what they were in Boston by any means, but they don't indicate he's "cooked" either.

With Morey in charge they won't miss something just because nobody in power cares what the numbers say.

His vaunted, habitually overrated IMO, defense looked pretty pedestrian when he was sharing the court with Kyrie. It looked even worse last year in the postseason when he was getting cooked by faster players at the 4. It's only going in one direction at his age, and he's not really a plus starter anymore once that happens.

I think they're crazy to keep him with the hope his value improves.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I really think Horford is cooked and at a place in the regression curve where he's quickly going to turn into Antuan Jamison 2.0.

He sure seemed that way at times, but it's possible he was just misused. His numbers are not what they were in Boston by any means, but they don't indicate he's "cooked" either.

With Morey in charge they won't miss something just because nobody in power cares what the numbers say.

His vaunted, habitually overrated IMO, defense looked pretty pedestrian when he was sharing the court with Kyrie. It looked even worse last year in the postseason when he was getting cooked by faster players at the 4. It's only going in one direction at his age, and he's not really a plus starter anymore once that happens.

I think they're crazy to keep him with the hope his value improves.

They're kind of stuck with Horford unless they're going to spend assets to move him. Still Kyrie has a history of making big men look like crappy defenders. The 76'ers, otoh, have a terrific D and Horford was not hurting their team D. So, the thought of juggling things around a bit and re-working the roster around the edges sounds pretty attractive compared to smashing the detonator, but I suppose that depends what's on the table.

Their biggest challenge appears to be keeping Simmons and Embiid healthy through the post-season.

tough to read about but post worthy condolences to the family
RIP

Stillwater wrote:

Read on Twitter

tough to read about but post worthy condolences to the family
RIP

This is awful news.

Locked on Cavs takes a deep dive in to Collin Sexton ...

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-heavy-pour-of-collin-sexton-with-a-splash-of-javale-mcgee/id1136055333?i=1000501710201

JonFromVA wrote:Locked on Cavs takes a deep dive in to Collin Sexton ...

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-heavy-pour-of-collin-sexton-with-a-splash-of-javale-mcgee/id1136055333?i=1000501710201

some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season.

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Locked on Cavs takes a deep dive in to Collin Sexton ...

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-heavy-pour-of-collin-sexton-with-a-splash-of-javale-mcgee/id1136055333?i=1000501710201

some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season.

You can be a leading scorer and not be net positive player. All it takes is for that player to take too many shots and not do anything else that helps the team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Locked on Cavs takes a deep dive in to Collin Sexton ...

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-heavy-pour-of-collin-sexton-with-a-splash-of-javale-mcgee/id1136055333?i=1000501710201

some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season

I watched every game and never doubted we were better with Collin off the floor then on.

The interesting thing about the interviewee is his approach to data analysis, looking at a player in a role, and trying to determine how good they are in it, and how well they were used in it.

I thought he was pretty insightful for someone who only watched some clips of Collin before the interview.

I thought he was spot on with Collin's strengths/weaknesses and areas he needs to improve. If anything he was more positive about Collin's defense than I am.

Also made a good point that the strength of the P&R is getting the ball to the roll man for the slam, that the ball-handler scoring is the lower point producing option. Something I complained for years about Kyrie as he always saw his screener more as just another obstacle to navigate rather than a target for a pass.

He also pointed out he thought Collin wasn't shooting enough to keep defenses honest - that most of the time they're still using drop coverage when he comes off a screen, and that Collin will have even more space if he forces them to play up on him. He thinks it Collin just getting more shots up in that circumstance will fix it, but I think it may be more of a pick your poison decision. I think Collin will have to show the defense he's more dangerous shooting the ball than driving and force them to adjust. So, for instance shooting 3's at 33.3% in that situation won't be enough to get the job done.

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Locked on Cavs takes a deep dive in to Collin Sexton ...

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-heavy-pour-of-collin-sexton-with-a-splash-of-javale-mcgee/id1136055333?i=1000501710201

some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season

I watched every game and never doubted we were better with Collin off the floor then on.

The interesting thing about the interviewee is his approach to data analysis, looking at a player in a role, and trying to determine how good they are in it, and how well they were used in it.

I thought he was pretty insightful for someone who only watched some clips of Collin before the interview.

I thought he was spot on with Collin's strengths/weaknesses and areas he needs to improve. If anything he was more positive about Collin's defense than I am.

Also made a good point that the strength of the P&R is getting the ball to the roll man for the slam, that the ball-handler scoring is the lower point producing option. Something I complained for years about Kyrie as he always saw his screener more as just another obstacle to navigate rather than a target for a pass.

He also pointed out he thought Collin wasn't shooting enough to keep defenses honest - that most of the time they're still using drop coverage when he comes off a screen, and that Collin will have even more space if he forces them to play up on him. He thinks it Collin just getting more shots up in that circumstance will fix it, but I think it may be more of a pick your poison decision. I think Collin will have to show the defense he's more dangerous shooting the ball than driving and force them to adjust. So, for instance shooting 3's at 33.3% in that situation won't be enough to get the job done.

This is usually the case. I'd like to see what those numbers look like with TT as the roll option.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season

I watched every game and never doubted we were better with Collin off the floor then on.

The interesting thing about the interviewee is his approach to data analysis, looking at a player in a role, and trying to determine how good they are in it, and how well they were used in it.

I thought he was pretty insightful for someone who only watched some clips of Collin before the interview.

I thought he was spot on with Collin's strengths/weaknesses and areas he needs to improve. If anything he was more positive about Collin's defense than I am.

Also made a good point that the strength of the P&R is getting the ball to the roll man for the slam, that the ball-handler scoring is the lower point producing option. Something I complained for years about Kyrie as he always saw his screener more as just another obstacle to navigate rather than a target for a pass.

He also pointed out he thought Collin wasn't shooting enough to keep defenses honest - that most of the time they're still using drop coverage when he comes off a screen, and that Collin will have even more space if he forces them to play up on him. He thinks it Collin just getting more shots up in that circumstance will fix it, but I think it may be more of a pick your poison decision. I think Collin will have to show the defense he's more dangerous shooting the ball than driving and force them to adjust. So, for instance shooting 3's at 33.3% in that situation won't be enough to get the job done.

This is usually the case. I'd like to see what those numbers look like with TT as the roll option.

I imagine it depended on who was feeding him.

Delly has really struggled to finish his own drives, but he was money connecting with Tristan if the defense took their eyes off TT for an instant - often connecting with a high % alley-oop.

otoh, if the guard just dumped it to Tristan in a crowd of defenders, the outcome was going to be a lot more suspect.

nba.com has Tristan at 0.91 PPP on his pick & roll based on 2.6 per game. Drummond was at 1.25 and Love was at 1.38. McGee was 1.33 in LA.

So, overall Tristan's number were unacceptable and you can see why we're trying to find our guards some easier targets.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/roll-man/

The data for our ball-handlers were not good. Clarkson led the team at 0.95, Sexton was at 0.90, , Garland was 0.76, and Delly was 0.69. For our Exum fan, he ended up at 0.91; but 0.95 as a guard is not as big of an outlier as 0.91 as a big.

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Locked on Cavs takes a deep dive in to Collin Sexton ...

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-heavy-pour-of-collin-sexton-with-a-splash-of-javale-mcgee/id1136055333?i=1000501710201

some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season.

You can be a leading scorer and not be net positive player. All it takes is for that player to take too many shots and not do anything else that helps the team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

true but in Sextons case imo anyway it is not the case now or at the end of last season even though it was early on. I think with the development of the other young players in parallel with his improvements & or near parallel its quite possible he can expand his role
beyond being just the guard who can score with ease on a losing team But it would not surprise me a more pass first oriented player if thats who Garland becomes would be more complimentary to the current vets who are best when they play off of gifted creators rather than creating for themselves. I think however that it is also very possible the vets are gone after this season and if Sexton Okoro combos are more effective than Garland Love ones for example that is probably the direction they will go building around them

Stillwater wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:some good points but the guy even admits he didnt watch much of the Cavs so as typical of those relying on data crunching
and coming away with the impression the leading scorer on the roster was actually a negative impact player lol.
is easy for me to dismiss these types of takes as they are fairly common from the outside in or for those under the assumption
Its garlands job to lose since he was drafted the year after smh
Sexton is still improving and at a rate worth being confident about and I fully expect to see a much better defender this season.

You can be a leading scorer and not be net positive player. All it takes is for that player to take too many shots and not do anything else that helps the team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

true but in Sextons case imo anyway it is not the case now or at the end of last season even though it was early on. I think with the development of the other young players in parallel with his improvements & or near parallel its quite possible he can expand his role
beyond being just the guard who can score with ease on a losing team But it would not surprise me a more pass first oriented player if thats who Garland becomes would be more complimentary to the current vets who are best when they play off of gifted creators rather than creating for themselves. I think however that it is also very possible the vets are gone after this season and if Sexton Okoro combos are more effective than Garland Love ones for example that is probably the direction they will go building around them

We were hoping Collin would continue to build off his rookie season too, but he struggled early in the season and yes, it dragged his numbers down; but any conclusions we care to draw from the end of the season are going to be based on a small sample size. So, we're just going to have to see.

IMO, a 5 man offense is better than 2 man offense, and I think that's why the Cavs have emphasized initiating the offense to Darius. Darius could be a ball dominant point guard, but I think they're trying to avoid him going down that path and not just because he's not ready for that kind of role.

Honestly until the players have a stable coaching staff for more than half a season I'm taking the struggles of the team, especially our young players, with a grain of salt. I can only imagine how hard it is for the players/team to be constantly being told their focus/role is changing halfway through each season. Obviously there are things that were issues that could be identified to be improved upon regardless of coaching changes, such as effort on defense/off ball defense IQ, but the offense especially it's hard to know if it's just not getting the right coaching/direction or an individual problem.

Revenged25 wrote:Honestly until the players have a stable coaching staff for more than half a season I'm taking the struggles of the team, especially our young players, with a grain of salt. I can only imagine how hard it is for the players/team to be constantly being told their focus/role is changing halfway through each season. Obviously there are things that were issues that could be identified to be improved upon regardless of coaching changes, such as effort on defense/off ball defense IQ, but the offense especially it's hard to know if it's just not getting the right coaching/direction or an individual problem.

Pass the ball to your teammates isn't exactly some MENSA level X & O stuff. The flip side of coaching turmoil is bad for development is that if you're on your third coach, and you as a player are still having the same issues, coaching probably isn't the problem. I hope that what we saw at the end of last season was it finally starting click for Sexton. I really do. But, there's no way I'd burn an entire half a season with him as a starter if he hasn't figured it out yet. We've got five young guys on this roster who need to develop, not just one.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Honestly until the players have a stable coaching staff for more than half a season I'm taking the struggles of the team, especially our young players, with a grain of salt. I can only imagine how hard it is for the players/team to be constantly being told their focus/role is changing halfway through each season. Obviously there are things that were issues that could be identified to be improved upon regardless of coaching changes, such as effort on defense/off ball defense IQ, but the offense especially it's hard to know if it's just not getting the right coaching/direction or an individual problem.

Pass the ball to your teammates isn't exactly some MENSA level X & O stuff. The flip side of coaching turmoil is bad for development is that if you're on your third coach, and you as a player are still having the same issues, coaching probably isn't the problem. I hope that what we saw at the end of last season was it finally starting click for Sexton. I really do. But, there's no way I'd burn an entire half a season with him as a starter if he hasn't figured it out yet. We've got five young guys on this roster who need to develop, not just one.

I mean all those coaches were around for half a season at most and kept giving different direction/roles to be fulfilled. When you tell a player to focus on scoring and they do, efficiently at that, you're complaining they're not passing when they're told to score? It's be one thing if he had a poor TS% but he's above average there for the position. If you want to knock him for his defense, the effort he put into it, and losing his man when off-ball, go right ahead, those are things that regardless of role/direction won't change, but complaining about his passing. I mean what is your excuse for Garlands poor passing then?

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Honestly until the players have a stable coaching staff for more than half a season I'm taking the struggles of the team, especially our young players, with a grain of salt. I can only imagine how hard it is for the players/team to be constantly being told their focus/role is changing halfway through each season. Obviously there are things that were issues that could be identified to be improved upon regardless of coaching changes, such as effort on defense/off ball defense IQ, but the offense especially it's hard to know if it's just not getting the right coaching/direction or an individual problem.

Pass the ball to your teammates isn't exactly some MENSA level X & O stuff. The flip side of coaching turmoil is bad for development is that if you're on your third coach, and you as a player are still having the same issues, coaching probably isn't the problem. I hope that what we saw at the end of last season was it finally starting click for Sexton. I really do. But, there's no way I'd burn an entire half a season with him as a starter if he hasn't figured it out yet. We've got five young guys on this roster who need to develop, not just one.

Imo if he is forcing bad shots or trying to finish and coming up short a lot like he did in year 1 then sure there is a reason to be mad about it but he is obviously more than capable of finding an open man eps when plays are run and executed efficiently which they rarely were under Beilein... but where he can do the most damage in that choice of "someone else becomes the better option" but imo he has always for the most part had the green light to score first and basically not worry about involving his teammates unless his option to score is not the best one the problem is his option was in fact often the best option on a bad team and he just didnt get it done efficiently because he was still forcing it too/.
So now that they have added DG Okoro and KPJ collectively as well as the off ball elite shooter and cutter in Windler /is Sexton as likely to always be the best option? NO. I think because of that Love will also get a lot more open looks from Sexton because Love is not getting as much attn as he has the past two seasons.
I am looking forward to this season more than most and dont care if Sexton ever lets up on his scoring or starts passing more unless of course his teammates have the better shot opportunity and Sexton is passing them up forcing poor ones.