Cavs F.A. 2020

[LivingLegend]

fit wise Sexton looked better with whomever he was with than DG did last year regardless of if DG has a better feel for finding bailouts and wide open shooters because he cannot finish like Sexton had the gl to do consistently.
I think there is a misconception about just how good of a floor general DGs and imo he really is not that guy , but I get that he really only has a shot to make in the league becoming that guy etc.
I dont want to see Sexton pushed to the bench in the name of Garland feeding the bigs more because he has too , I want to see DG go off and prove he can score at the same clip as Sexton does from all 3 levels and until that happens I dont care how well DG can see the floor or distribute if he isnt a 3 level scoring threat I mean if he cant do that than he needs to be running the 2nd unit himself

You're missing that part of the problem is Sexton taking 17 fga per game with only 3 assists. I'm quite sure that there are a number of players on the roster who can average 20 ppg on 17 shots if you give them long enough to do so. The question is whether the offense as a whole operates as efficiently as it needs to that way.

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sure but he is the one doing it so if the dime rate goes up or even just the feeds without finishes from his passed to teammates its his job to lose i mean garland has more to prove in other areas imo to justify staying in the sl.

He does, but I have faith he is going to break out this year. He was essentially a high school kid coming straight to the pros, coming off injury with zero preseason. He had a LOT working against him last year.

[gflem]

All the Garland/Sexton talk about who should start is kind of funny to me. Sexton has clearly proven at this point to be the guy that deserves to start. Garland simply hasn't earned it. Of course he needs more pt, but it was beyond frustrating to watch him clank 5 or 6 floaters per game off the rim due to not being quick enough to beat his player to the rim or strong enough to finish through contact when he actually could.
Did Garland show more willingness to pass? Yes, but was it due to not being able to shoot/score to the point that it was always the best option? If you ask me, it was. Was it more of a lack of confidence in his ability to score/finish. I'll let you guys answer that.
For the record I don't hate Garland. I hope last season was a combination of poor coaching for most of the season, not having his shot and quickness due to his injury, being a rookie, and of course as almost any 19 year old his lack of strength against professional NBA athletes. I will be happy to eat crow if he can defend at least at a poor level, hit shots as he was advertised to be able to, and run the offense at least at a decent level. That would be an huge improvement for him, and what should be expected of the 5th pick in any draft, even at 20 years old in his second season.

[LivingLegend]

All the Garland/Sexton talk about who should start is kind of funny to me. Sexton has clearly proven at this point to be the guy that deserves to start. Garland simply hasn't earned it. Of course he needs more pt, but it was beyond frustrating to watch him clank 5 or 6 floaters per game off the rim due to not being quick enough to beat his player to the rim or strong enough to finish through contact when he actually could.
Did Garland show more willingness to pass? Yes, but was it due to not being able to shoot/score to the point that it was always the best option? If you ask me, it was. Was it more of a lack of confidence in his ability to score/finish. I'll let you guys answer that.
For the record I don't hate Garland. I hope last season was a combination of poor coaching for most of the season, not having his shot and quickness due to his injury, being a rookie, and of course as almost any 19 year old his lack of strength against professional NBA athletes. I will be happy to eat crow if he can defend at least at a poor level, hit shots as he was advertised to be able to, and run the offense at least at a decent level. That would be an huge improvement for him, and what should be expected of the 5th pick in any draft, even at 20 years old in his second season.

I have faith. Like you said there was a lot going against him last year. I have a feeling he is going to do well in his second year and get on track

[Stillwater]

I wouldn't be surprised at anything at this point but i actually was hoping to see some kpj as the lead ball handler floor general letting either scoring guard play off him esp Sexton and now with his legal trouble idk what to think but have my doubt.
As far as how the line up goes both sexton and garland will see minutes on the court together its unavoidable but obviously you dont want to role them out like last season.
Lets be optimistic about Garland for a minute abd believe he has a 180 season. I still dont think it means more wins if dg does play alot better because hes a turnstile where there is some hope Sextons weight room work will help his defense to not be one.

[Revenged25]

fit wise Sexton looked better with whomever he was with than DG did last year regardless of if DG has a better feel for finding bailouts and wide open shooters because he cannot finish like Sexton had the gl to do consistently.
I think there is a misconception about just how good of a floor general DGs and imo he really is not that guy , but I get that he really only has a shot to make in the league becoming that guy etc.
I dont want to see Sexton pushed to the bench in the name of Garland feeding the bigs more because he has too , I want to see DG go off and prove he can score at the same clip as Sexton does from all 3 levels and until that happens I dont care how well DG can see the floor or distribute if he isnt a 3 level scoring threat I mean if he cant do that than he needs to be running the 2nd unit himself

You're missing that part of the problem is Sexton taking 17 fga per game with only 3 assists. I'm quite sure that there are a number of players on the roster who can average 20 ppg on 17 shots if you give them long enough to do so. The question is whether the offense as a whole operates as efficiently as it needs to that way.

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sure but he is the one doing it so if the dime rate goes up or even just the feeds without finishes from his passed to teammates its his job to lose i mean garland has more to prove in other areas imo to justify staying in the sl.

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

[jbk1234]

You're missing that part of the problem is Sexton taking 17 fga per game with only 3 assists. I'm quite sure that there are a number of players on the roster who can average 20 ppg on 17 shots if you give them long enough to do so. The question is whether the offense as a whole operates as efficiently as it needs to that way.

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sure but he is the one doing it so if the dime rate goes up or even just the feeds without finishes from his passed to teammates its his job to lose i mean garland has more to prove in other areas imo to justify staying in the sl.

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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[Revenged25]

sure but he is the one doing it so if the dime rate goes up or even just the feeds without finishes from his passed to teammates its his job to lose i mean garland has more to prove in other areas imo to justify staying in the sl.

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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That sort of what I was asking for. Like I know in football there's profootballfocus which although doesn't always have the most reliable rankings, do come up with different things like catchable throws, etc and wasn't sure if there was something like that for attempted assists taht just didn't go down and as you expanded up, good attempted assists vs bad.

[Revenged25]

sure but he is the one doing it so if the dime rate goes up or even just the feeds without finishes from his passed to teammates its his job to lose i mean garland has more to prove in other areas imo to justify staying in the sl.

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

Sexton was pretty close to Garland.

Looking at Sexton had 6.2 potential assists/game with only 3 assists being converted, while Garland has 3.9 assists/game with 7.7 potential assits/game. Compared to last year Sexton only had 5.6 potential assists/game with his 3 assists being converted. When you take into account that this season he was asked to score first and pass second and allow Garland to be the main distributor compared to last year where I think he was supposed to do both, the fact he increased his potential assists still shows he improved his decision making from his rookie seasonn.

Two players that Sexton was compared to on this forum for being score first guards with less than stellar defense, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell, I'll post their numbers for their rookie and 2nd years.

Collin Sexton (R) 20 y/o, 3 assists, 5.6 potential assists
Devin Booker (R) 19 Y/O, 2.6 Assists, 6.3 Potential Assists
Donovan Mitchell (R), 21 y/o, 3.7 assists, 6.8 potential assists

Collin Sexton (1) 21 y/o, 3 assists, 6.2 potential assists
Devin Booker (1) 20 y/o, 3.5 assists, 7.6 potential assists
Donovan Mitchell (1) 22 y/o, 4.2 assists, 8.2 potential assists

So although Sexton is behind those 2, he is within a respectable range while being in a worse situation coaching wise. I mean the Cavs are on their 4th coach in the 2 years he's been with the team. Definitely hard to really understand what your role on the team is supposed to be and how you should progress when it's changed halfway through each year.

[jbk1234]

Is there a stat somewhere that takes into account feeds without finishes? It would be interesting to see if Sexton really is that bad of a passer or if we've just had that bad of people attempting shots afterwards.

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

Sexton was pretty close to Garland.

Looking at Sexton had 6.2 potential assists/game with only 3 assists being converted, while Garland has 3.9 assists/game with 7.7 potential assits/game. Compared to last year Sexton only had 5.6 potential assists/game with his 3 assists being converted. When you take into account that this season he was asked to score first and pass second and allow Garland to be the main distributor compared to last year where I think he was supposed to do both, the fact he increased his potential assists still shows he improved his decision making from his rookie seasonn.

Two players that Sexton was compared to on this forum for being score first guards with less than stellar defense, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell, I'll post their numbers for their rookie and 2nd years.

Collin Sexton (R) 20 y/o, 3 assists, 5.6 potential assists
Devin Booker (R) 19 Y/O, 2.6 Assists, 6.3 Potential Assists
Donovan Mitchell (R), 21 y/o, 3.7 assists, 6.8 potential assists

Collin Sexton (1) 21 y/o, 3 assists, 6.2 potential assists
Devin Booker (1) 20 y/o, 3.5 assists, 7.6 potential assists
Donovan Mitchell (1) 22 y/o, 4.2 assists, 8.2 potential assists

So although Sexton is behind those 2, he is within a respectable range while being in a worse situation coaching wise. I mean the Cavs are on their 4th coach in the 2 years he's been with the team. Definitely hard to really understand what your role on the team is supposed to be and how you should progress when it's changed halfway through each year.

Cedi and Love hit a combined 4.5 3p shots per game on really good percentages which is a bit like free assists from a PGs perspective. Going from TT who struggles to finish at the rim, to Drummond who doesn't ought to be good for at least another assist per game. Even a replacement level PG should be able to get 5 assists per game with this roster.

But if you're repeatedly driving to the rim, and help defenders are repeatedly pinching down and packing the paint, because no one in the arena believes you're going to pass it back out to an open shooter, that's on you. There were signs towards the end of last season that Sexton started to figure that out.

That's the part of his game he really needs to improve on if he's going to start on a good team. He can be too predictable offensively and he makes himself easier to defend as a result. He's not really a triple threat right now.

As far as the comps, Booker really doesn't belong in a discussion about guards who are going to run an offense. There's a reason the Suns went out and got Rubio and then traded for CP3. They don't want Booker to the primary ball handler.

There's a reason the Jazz went out and got Conley.

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[Revenged25]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

Sexton was pretty close to Garland.

Looking at Sexton had 6.2 potential assists/game with only 3 assists being converted, while Garland has 3.9 assists/game with 7.7 potential assits/game. Compared to last year Sexton only had 5.6 potential assists/game with his 3 assists being converted. When you take into account that this season he was asked to score first and pass second and allow Garland to be the main distributor compared to last year where I think he was supposed to do both, the fact he increased his potential assists still shows he improved his decision making from his rookie seasonn.

Two players that Sexton was compared to on this forum for being score first guards with less than stellar defense, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell, I'll post their numbers for their rookie and 2nd years.

Collin Sexton (R) 20 y/o, 3 assists, 5.6 potential assists
Devin Booker (R) 19 Y/O, 2.6 Assists, 6.3 Potential Assists
Donovan Mitchell (R), 21 y/o, 3.7 assists, 6.8 potential assists

Collin Sexton (1) 21 y/o, 3 assists, 6.2 potential assists
Devin Booker (1) 20 y/o, 3.5 assists, 7.6 potential assists
Donovan Mitchell (1) 22 y/o, 4.2 assists, 8.2 potential assists

So although Sexton is behind those 2, he is within a respectable range while being in a worse situation coaching wise. I mean the Cavs are on their 4th coach in the 2 years he's been with the team. Definitely hard to really understand what your role on the team is supposed to be and how you should progress when it's changed halfway through each year.

Cedi and Love hit a combined 4.5 3p shots per game on really good percentages which is a bit like free assists from a PGs perspective. Going from TT who struggles to finish at the rim, to Drummond who doesn't ought to be good for at least another assist per game. Even a replacement level PG should be able to get 5 assists per game with this roster.

But if you're repeatedly driving to the rim, and help defenders are repeatedly pinching down and packing the paint, because no one in the arena believes you're going to pass it back out to an open shooter, that's on you. There were signs towards the end of last season that Sexton started to figure that out.

That's the part of his game he really needs to improve on if he's going to start on a good team. He can be too predictable offensively and he makes himself easier to defend as a result. He's not really a triple threat right now.

As far as the comps, Booker really doesn't belong in a discussion about guards who are going to run an offense. There's a reason the Suns went out and got Rubio and then traded for CP3. They don't want Booker to the primary ball handler.

There's a reason the Jazz went out and got Conley.

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I mean isn't that what the Cavs tried to do with getting Garland as well? Also just because tehy made 4.5 3pts a game it doesn't mean that they all happened on a single persons possible assists, especially when you consider not every shot is assisted and even then there are multiple people attempting to get assists. I think we all agree that Sexton isn't a starting PG but a scoring combo guard that can run the point at times. Sexton getting up to about 4-4.5 apg would be an ideal situation with him scoring about 25 pgg and improved effort on defense. To do that Sexton would probably need to boost his potential assists up from 6.2 to about 8.5 to do that. That obviously would come from better vision from driving and dishing to a shooter at the 3pt line, the big already in the lane, as well as on the fast breaks that I'm sure we'll be seeing from Sexton and Okoro/KPJ as before only KPJ really had the speed/ability to keep up with Sexton on such breaks.

[JonFromVA]

fit wise Sexton looked better with whomever he was with than DG did last year regardless of if DG has a better feel for finding bailouts and wide open shooters because he cannot finish like Sexton had the gl to do consistently.
I think there is a misconception about just how good of a floor general DGs and imo he really is not that guy , but I get that he really only has a shot to make in the league becoming that guy etc.
I dont want to see Sexton pushed to the bench in the name of Garland feeding the bigs more because he has too , I want to see DG go off and prove he can score at the same clip as Sexton does from all 3 levels and until that happens I dont care how well DG can see the floor or distribute if he isnt a 3 level scoring threat I mean if he cant do that than he needs to be running the 2nd unit himself

You're missing that part of the problem is Sexton taking 17 fga per game with only 3 assists. I'm quite sure that there are a number of players on the roster who can average 20 ppg on 17 shots if you give them long enough to do so. The question is whether the offense as a whole operates as efficiently as it needs to that way.

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I agree, and what I really don't want to see is the Cavs force Sexton/Garland on the court together for the first 25 games until they realize it won't work. I hope they have the foresight to get out ahead of it and not waste games trying

You're implying we have something better to do with the first 25 games?

There is certainly a case to start Garland and bring Sexton off-the-bench, but offensively they actually do compliment each other in ways I'm not sure others do. It is beneficial to have multiple ball handlers on the floor who can do different things - it helps counter the "cut off the head of the snake" defense.

If we had Summer league, if we had a pre-season, if KPJ wasn't at risk of being suspended (let alone going to jail) we might be making some progress on figuring out who might compliment who better before the season starts, but I expect the Cavs to re-visit the Garland+Sexton backcourt and re-evaluate where they're at.

For the Cavs it seems there are always consequences for their decisions. Collin is trying to play himself in to a big extension, Darius is trying to recover from that injury and establish himself - and it's unlikely their agents will accept a setback unless everyone feels they have had a fair chance.

And then there's the "meta" game. Like what actually is our goal? Do we hope to raise the value of Drummond and Love to facilitate trading them? If so, maybe we should just start Delly, Okoro and Windler with Drummond and Love. Delly to get Love and Drummond the ball, Okoro and Delly to play D, and Windler to shoot.

A question for the franchise before deciding someone needs to go work on their game off the bench is whether we should just trade them first. It may not matter much in terms of trade value as neither has much at the moment (we'd be selling low), but we need to gauge how the move will or will not be accepted.

There's a good chance I'm inventing problems that wouldn't be there, but it's just the kind of stuff that has to be considered before pulling the plug on a player.

[jbk1234]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

Sexton was pretty close to Garland.

Looking at Sexton had 6.2 potential assists/game with only 3 assists being converted, while Garland has 3.9 assists/game with 7.7 potential assits/game. Compared to last year Sexton only had 5.6 potential assists/game with his 3 assists being converted. When you take into account that this season he was asked to score first and pass second and allow Garland to be the main distributor compared to last year where I think he was supposed to do both, the fact he increased his potential assists still shows he improved his decision making from his rookie seasonn.

Two players that Sexton was compared to on this forum for being score first guards with less than stellar defense, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell, I'll post their numbers for their rookie and 2nd years.

Collin Sexton (R) 20 y/o, 3 assists, 5.6 potential assists
Devin Booker (R) 19 Y/O, 2.6 Assists, 6.3 Potential Assists
Donovan Mitchell (R), 21 y/o, 3.7 assists, 6.8 potential assists

Collin Sexton (1) 21 y/o, 3 assists, 6.2 potential assists
Devin Booker (1) 20 y/o, 3.5 assists, 7.6 potential assists
Donovan Mitchell (1) 22 y/o, 4.2 assists, 8.2 potential assists

So although Sexton is behind those 2, he is within a respectable range while being in a worse situation coaching wise. I mean the Cavs are on their 4th coach in the 2 years he's been with the team. Definitely hard to really understand what your role on the team is supposed to be and how you should progress when it's changed halfway through each year.

Cedi and Love hit a combined 4.5 3p shots per game on really good percentages which is a bit like free assists from a PGs perspective. Going from TT who struggles to finish at the rim, to Drummond who doesn't ought to be good for at least another assist per game. Even a replacement level PG should be able to get 5 assists per game with this roster.

But if you're repeatedly driving to the rim, and help defenders are repeatedly pinching down and packing the paint, because no one in the arena believes you're going to pass it back out to an open shooter, that's on you. There were signs towards the end of last season that Sexton started to figure that out.

That's the part of his game he really needs to improve on if he's going to start on a good team. He can be too predictable offensively and he makes himself easier to defend as a result. He's not really a triple threat right now.

As far as the comps, Booker really doesn't belong in a discussion about guards who are going to run an offense. There's a reason the Suns went out and got Rubio and then traded for CP3. They don't want Booker to the primary ball handler.

There's a reason the Jazz went out and got Conley.

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I mean isn't that what the Cavs tried to do with getting Garland as well? Also just because tehy made 4.5 3pts a game it doesn't mean that they all happened on a single persons possible assists, especially when you consider not every shot is assisted and even then there are multiple people attempting to get assists. I think we all agree that Sexton isn't a starting PG but a scoring combo guard that can run the point at times. Sexton getting up to about 4-4.5 apg would be an ideal situation with him scoring about 25 pgg and improved effort on defense. To do that Sexton would probably need to boost his potential assists up from 6.2 to about 8.5 to do that. That obviously would come from better vision from driving and dishing to a shooter at the 3pt line, the big already in the lane, as well as on the fast breaks that I'm sure we'll be seeing from Sexton and Okoro/KPJ as before only KPJ really had the speed/ability to keep up with Sexton on such breaks.

Kevin Love got 3.2 assists per game and he doesn't even bring the ball up or handle the ball in PNR situations. There are going to be plenty of assist opportunities for a guard with this roster.

As far as Sexton averaging 25 ppg, if he can do that based upon improved efficiency, great. If he does that by taking even more shots per game, hard pass.

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[jbk1234]

You're missing that part of the problem is Sexton taking 17 fga per game with only 3 assists. I'm quite sure that there are a number of players on the roster who can average 20 ppg on 17 shots if you give them long enough to do so. The question is whether the offense as a whole operates as efficiently as it needs to that way.

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I agree, and what I really don't want to see is the Cavs force Sexton/Garland on the court together for the first 25 games until they realize it won't work. I hope they have the foresight to get out ahead of it and not waste games trying

You're implying we have something better to do with the first 25 games?

There is certainly a case to start Garland and bring Sexton off-the-bench, but offensively they actually do compliment each other in ways I'm not sure others do. It is beneficial to have multiple ball handlers on the floor who can do different things - it helps counter the "cut off the head of the snake" defense.

If we had Summer league, if we had a pre-season, if KPJ wasn't at risk of being suspended (let alone going to jail) we might be making some progress on figuring out who might compliment who better before the season starts, but I expect the Cavs to re-visit the Garland+Sexton backcourt and re-evaluate where they're at.

For the Cavs it seems there are always consequences for their decisions. Collin is trying to play himself in to a big extension, Darius is trying to recover from that injury and establish himself - and it's unlikely their agents will accept a setback unless everyone feels they have had a fair chance.

And then there's the "meta" game. Like what actually is our goal? Do we hope to raise the value of Drummond and Love to facilitate trading them? If so, maybe we should just start Delly, Okoro and Windler with Drummond and Love. Delly to get Love and Drummond the ball, Okoro and Delly to play D, and Windler to shoot.

A question for the franchise before deciding someone needs to go work on their game off the bench is whether we should just trade them first. It may not matter much in terms of trade value as neither has much at the moment (we'd be selling low), but we need to gauge how the move will or will not be accepted.

There's a good chance I'm inventing problems that wouldn't be there, but it's just the kind of stuff that has to be considered before pulling the plug on a player.

I cannot believe there's any serious talk about extending Sexton on his rookie contract when we're not 100% sure he's a long-term starter. The Bulls were convinced that LaVine was great value on a $20M per deal, that he'd be a real trade asset, and that hasn't come to fruition because the rest of league isn't sure he's a starter on a good team.

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[JonFromVA]

Cedi and Love are two of the better three point shooters you can ask to start alongside you. There are a couple problems with the finishing argument one of which has been dealt with by TT leaving for Boston.

As the lead guard, you really should be getting your teammates easier looks that come with you breaking down a defense which is not a skill set Sexton has really demonstrated yet. But last year, in addition to Sexton taking too many shots, TT took way too many shots for his role because TT was always the easy bail out pass at the rim. The problem is TT was essentially unguarded because he doesn't get his shot off quickly and he's pretty easy to block for a center.

It's not just whether you pass at all, it's whether you're creating a good assist opportunity.

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https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

Sexton was pretty close to Garland.

Looking at Sexton had 6.2 potential assists/game with only 3 assists being converted, while Garland has 3.9 assists/game with 7.7 potential assits/game. Compared to last year Sexton only had 5.6 potential assists/game with his 3 assists being converted. When you take into account that this season he was asked to score first and pass second and allow Garland to be the main distributor compared to last year where I think he was supposed to do both, the fact he increased his potential assists still shows he improved his decision making from his rookie seasonn.

Two players that Sexton was compared to on this forum for being score first guards with less than stellar defense, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell, I'll post their numbers for their rookie and 2nd years.

Collin Sexton (R) 20 y/o, 3 assists, 5.6 potential assists
Devin Booker (R) 19 Y/O, 2.6 Assists, 6.3 Potential Assists
Donovan Mitchell (R), 21 y/o, 3.7 assists, 6.8 potential assists

Collin Sexton (1) 21 y/o, 3 assists, 6.2 potential assists
Devin Booker (1) 20 y/o, 3.5 assists, 7.6 potential assists
Donovan Mitchell (1) 22 y/o, 4.2 assists, 8.2 potential assists

So although Sexton is behind those 2, he is within a respectable range while being in a worse situation coaching wise. I mean the Cavs are on their 4th coach in the 2 years he's been with the team. Definitely hard to really understand what your role on the team is supposed to be and how you should progress when it's changed halfway through each year.

Cedi and Love hit a combined 4.5 3p shots per game on really good percentages which is a bit like free assists from a PGs perspective. Going from TT who struggles to finish at the rim, to Drummond who doesn't ought to be good for at least another assist per game. Even a replacement level PG should be able to get 5 assists per game with this roster.

But if you're repeatedly driving to the rim, and help defenders are repeatedly pinching down and packing the paint, because no one in the arena believes you're going to pass it back out to an open shooter, that's on you. There were signs towards the end of last season that Sexton started to figure that out.

That's the part of his game he really needs to improve on if he's going to start on a good team. He can be too predictable offensively and he makes himself easier to defend as a result. He's not really a triple threat right now.

As far as the comps, Booker really doesn't belong in a discussion about guards who are going to run an offense. There's a reason the Suns went out and got Rubio and then traded for CP3. They don't want Booker to the primary ball handler.

There's a reason the Jazz went out and got Conley.

Our vet minimum PG averaged 7.9 assists per 36 minutes, which is actually above his career average but below his career best.

If we have to bench Garland, the obvious answer is to start Delly with Collin. We have some numbers on that from last season with Osman-Love-Thompson and it was pretty good. Unfortunately we didn't get to see Drummond long enough to get anything positive out of his lineups.

Some of our bench lineups were outshining our starters, but we broke those up by trading Henson and Clarkson; still more minutes for Nance Jr seems like something we should work on.

[JonFromVA]

I agree, and what I really don't want to see is the Cavs force Sexton/Garland on the court together for the first 25 games until they realize it won't work. I hope they have the foresight to get out ahead of it and not waste games trying

You're implying we have something better to do with the first 25 games?

There is certainly a case to start Garland and bring Sexton off-the-bench, but offensively they actually do compliment each other in ways I'm not sure others do. It is beneficial to have multiple ball handlers on the floor who can do different things - it helps counter the "cut off the head of the snake" defense.

If we had Summer league, if we had a pre-season, if KPJ wasn't at risk of being suspended (let alone going to jail) we might be making some progress on figuring out who might compliment who better before the season starts, but I expect the Cavs to re-visit the Garland+Sexton backcourt and re-evaluate where they're at.

For the Cavs it seems there are always consequences for their decisions. Collin is trying to play himself in to a big extension, Darius is trying to recover from that injury and establish himself - and it's unlikely their agents will accept a setback unless everyone feels they have had a fair chance.

And then there's the "meta" game. Like what actually is our goal? Do we hope to raise the value of Drummond and Love to facilitate trading them? If so, maybe we should just start Delly, Okoro and Windler with Drummond and Love. Delly to get Love and Drummond the ball, Okoro and Delly to play D, and Windler to shoot.

A question for the franchise before deciding someone needs to go work on their game off the bench is whether we should just trade them first. It may not matter much in terms of trade value as neither has much at the moment (we'd be selling low), but we need to gauge how the move will or will not be accepted.

There's a good chance I'm inventing problems that wouldn't be there, but it's just the kind of stuff that has to be considered before pulling the plug on a player.

I cannot believe there's any serious talk about extending Sexton on his rookie contract when we're not 100% sure he's a long-term starter. The Bulls were convinced that LaVine was great value on a $20M per deal, that he'd be a real trade asset, and that hasn't come to fruition because the rest of league isn't sure he's a starter on a good team.

It's all part of the fun of playing the lottery game. If you grab a can't miss guy, you pay him the max and enjoy the fact you got a bargain; but other top picks get messy. Lots of guys have gotten max rookie extensions just based on a hope they might someday earn it. You can string them out, make them "test the market" in restricted free-agency, etc, but there's often consequences to that approach as well.

[jbk1234]

You're implying we have something better to do with the first 25 games?

There is certainly a case to start Garland and bring Sexton off-the-bench, but offensively they actually do compliment each other in ways I'm not sure others do. It is beneficial to have multiple ball handlers on the floor who can do different things - it helps counter the "cut off the head of the snake" defense.

If we had Summer league, if we had a pre-season, if KPJ wasn't at risk of being suspended (let alone going to jail) we might be making some progress on figuring out who might compliment who better before the season starts, but I expect the Cavs to re-visit the Garland+Sexton backcourt and re-evaluate where they're at.

For the Cavs it seems there are always consequences for their decisions. Collin is trying to play himself in to a big extension, Darius is trying to recover from that injury and establish himself - and it's unlikely their agents will accept a setback unless everyone feels they have had a fair chance.

And then there's the "meta" game. Like what actually is our goal? Do we hope to raise the value of Drummond and Love to facilitate trading them? If so, maybe we should just start Delly, Okoro and Windler with Drummond and Love. Delly to get Love and Drummond the ball, Okoro and Delly to play D, and Windler to shoot.

A question for the franchise before deciding someone needs to go work on their game off the bench is whether we should just trade them first. It may not matter much in terms of trade value as neither has much at the moment (we'd be selling low), but we need to gauge how the move will or will not be accepted.

There's a good chance I'm inventing problems that wouldn't be there, but it's just the kind of stuff that has to be considered before pulling the plug on a player.

I cannot believe there's any serious talk about extending Sexton on his rookie contract when we're not 100% sure he's a long-term starter. The Bulls were convinced that LaVine was great value on a $20M per deal, that he'd be a real trade asset, and that hasn't come to fruition because the rest of league isn't sure he's a starter on a good team.

It's all part of the fun of playing the lottery game. If you grab a can't miss guy, you pay him the max and enjoy the fact you got a bargain; but other top picks get messy. Lots of guys have gotten max rookie extensions just based on a hope they might someday earn it. You can string them out, make them "test the market" in restricted free-agency, etc, but there's often consequences to that approach as well.

I'll take my chances with the latter approach and if I have to put a max offer in front of a young guy on the day F.A. starts at 12:01, so be it. But, I don't think that's going to be a problem. Teams are entirely too scared of letting young players, or any player for that matter, test the market IMO.

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[Stillwater]

If I was the Cavs coaching staff I would be looking for line ups that feed Okoro and see what he can do early on. I think there is a possibility the low outside shooting % is fixed a lot similar to how Sexton was far better than expected.
I think if KPJ plays he is a starter for sure but no only that maybe should be the guy bringing the ball up the floor with one of the smaller guards playing off him probably Sexton. Having DG run the 2nd unit for awhile may be good for him and Windler to establish some chemistry etc.
at the end of the day having 3 or 4 guards who can bring the ball up and initiate sets and ones that can get their own buckets is a good problem to have

[LivingLegend]

I agree, and what I really don't want to see is the Cavs force Sexton/Garland on the court together for the first 25 games until they realize it won't work. I hope they have the foresight to get out ahead of it and not waste games trying

You're implying we have something better to do with the first 25 games?

There is certainly a case to start Garland and bring Sexton off-the-bench, but offensively they actually do compliment each other in ways I'm not sure others do. It is beneficial to have multiple ball handlers on the floor who can do different things - it helps counter the "cut off the head of the snake" defense.

If we had Summer league, if we had a pre-season, if KPJ wasn't at risk of being suspended (let alone going to jail) we might be making some progress on figuring out who might compliment who better before the season starts, but I expect the Cavs to re-visit the Garland+Sexton backcourt and re-evaluate where they're at.

For the Cavs it seems there are always consequences for their decisions. Collin is trying to play himself in to a big extension, Darius is trying to recover from that injury and establish himself - and it's unlikely their agents will accept a setback unless everyone feels they have had a fair chance.

And then there's the "meta" game. Like what actually is our goal? Do we hope to raise the value of Drummond and Love to facilitate trading them? If so, maybe we should just start Delly, Okoro and Windler with Drummond and Love. Delly to get Love and Drummond the ball, Okoro and Delly to play D, and Windler to shoot.

A question for the franchise before deciding someone needs to go work on their game off the bench is whether we should just trade them first. It may not matter much in terms of trade value as neither has much at the moment (we'd be selling low), but we need to gauge how the move will or will not be accepted.

There's a good chance I'm inventing problems that wouldn't be there, but it's just the kind of stuff that has to be considered before pulling the plug on a player.

I cannot believe there's any serious talk about extending Sexton on his rookie contract when we're not 100% sure he's a long-term starter. The Bulls were convinced that LaVine was great value on a $20M per deal, that he'd be a real trade asset, and that hasn't come to fruition because the rest of league isn't sure he's a starter on a good team.

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There was a article on the Athletic that said opposing GMs see Collin Sexton as a really good bench player. So if thats the pulse around the league, I doubt anybody is really winding up to trade for him or offer him something Cleveland cannot.

In all, he is a very similar player to Westbrook in terms of play-style. He is a ball dominant guard that doesnt work off the ball well, doesnt facilitate well, he has a low BBIQ and feel for the game and doesnt play defense well. His only positive is transition offense and ISO ball. That to me screams 6th man. I just think he is destined to be a microwave scorer off the bench. You can compare his raw stats to Booker, Mitchell and Murry but what you cant compare is that those guys make the right smart plays and they initiate the offense. Sexton just sort of fumbles, bumbles and stumbles his way into 25 point scoring games on volume.

Like you said with Lavine though the Bulls were banking on the future but he never really progressed. I can see Collin being in that same boat, a starter on a bad team or a great role player on a good team. His vision and feel for the game just needs to improve dramatically.

Side note: this is also why subscribing to the BPA or bust model can backfire. You keep taking BPA and then you create a unbalanced roster that doesnt allow anybody to really succeed or breakthrough and you spend the next 3 years trying to figure out the fit with everybody.

[Stillwater]

You're implying we have something better to do with the first 25 games?

There is certainly a case to start Garland and bring Sexton off-the-bench, but offensively they actually do compliment each other in ways I'm not sure others do. It is beneficial to have multiple ball handlers on the floor who can do different things - it helps counter the "cut off the head of the snake" defense.

If we had Summer league, if we had a pre-season, if KPJ wasn't at risk of being suspended (let alone going to jail) we might be making some progress on figuring out who might compliment who better before the season starts, but I expect the Cavs to re-visit the Garland+Sexton backcourt and re-evaluate where they're at.

For the Cavs it seems there are always consequences for their decisions. Collin is trying to play himself in to a big extension, Darius is trying to recover from that injury and establish himself - and it's unlikely their agents will accept a setback unless everyone feels they have had a fair chance.

And then there's the "meta" game. Like what actually is our goal? Do we hope to raise the value of Drummond and Love to facilitate trading them? If so, maybe we should just start Delly, Okoro and Windler with Drummond and Love. Delly to get Love and Drummond the ball, Okoro and Delly to play D, and Windler to shoot.

A question for the franchise before deciding someone needs to go work on their game off the bench is whether we should just trade them first. It may not matter much in terms of trade value as neither has much at the moment (we'd be selling low), but we need to gauge how the move will or will not be accepted.

There's a good chance I'm inventing problems that wouldn't be there, but it's just the kind of stuff that has to be considered before pulling the plug on a player.

I cannot believe there's any serious talk about extending Sexton on his rookie contract when we're not 100% sure he's a long-term starter. The Bulls were convinced that LaVine was great value on a $20M per deal, that he'd be a real trade asset, and that hasn't come to fruition because the rest of league isn't sure he's a starter on a good team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

There was a article on the Athletic that said opposing GMs see Collin Sexton as a really good bench player. So if thats the pulse around the league, I doubt anybody is really winding up to trade for him or offer him something Cleveland cannot.

In all, he is a very similar player to Westbrook in terms of play-style. He is a ball dominant guard that doesnt work off the ball well, doesnt facilitate well, he has a low BBIQ and feel for the game and doesnt play defense well. His only positive is transition offense and ISO ball. That to me screams 6th man. I just think he is destined to be a microwave scorer off the bench. You can compare his raw stats to Booker, Mitchell and Murry but what you cant compare is that those guys make the right smart plays and they initiate the offense. Sexton just sort of fumbles, bumbles and stumbles his way into 25 point scoring games on volume.

Like you said with Lavine though the Bulls were banking on the future but he never really progressed. I can see Collin being in that same boat, a starter on a bad team or a great role player on a good team. His vision and feel for the game just needs to improve dramatically.

Side note: this is also why subscribing to the BPA or bust model can backfire. You keep taking BPA and then you create a unbalanced roster that doesnt allow anybody to really succeed or breakthrough and you spend the next 3 years trying to figure out the fit with everybody.

no chance that is still the case like it was early on he is a gym rat and a film study machine which we have already witnessed. Just because outside the front office orgs claim he is a bench player doesnt mean jshizit

[LivingLegend]

I cannot believe there's any serious talk about extending Sexton on his rookie contract when we're not 100% sure he's a long-term starter. The Bulls were convinced that LaVine was great value on a $20M per deal, that he'd be a real trade asset, and that hasn't come to fruition because the rest of league isn't sure he's a starter on a good team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

There was a article on the Athletic that said opposing GMs see Collin Sexton as a really good bench player. So if thats the pulse around the league, I doubt anybody is really winding up to trade for him or offer him something Cleveland cannot.

In all, he is a very similar player to Westbrook in terms of play-style. He is a ball dominant guard that doesnt work off the ball well, doesnt facilitate well, he has a low BBIQ and feel for the game and doesnt play defense well. His only positive is transition offense and ISO ball. That to me screams 6th man. I just think he is destined to be a microwave scorer off the bench. You can compare his raw stats to Booker, Mitchell and Murry but what you cant compare is that those guys make the right smart plays and they initiate the offense. Sexton just sort of fumbles, bumbles and stumbles his way into 25 point scoring games on volume.

Like you said with Lavine though the Bulls were banking on the future but he never really progressed. I can see Collin being in that same boat, a starter on a bad team or a great role player on a good team. His vision and feel for the game just needs to improve dramatically.

Side note: this is also why subscribing to the BPA or bust model can backfire. You keep taking BPA and then you create a unbalanced roster that doesnt allow anybody to really succeed or breakthrough and you spend the next 3 years trying to figure out the fit with everybody.

no chance that is still the case like it was early on he is a gym rat and a film study machine which we have already witnessed. Just because outside the front office orgs claim he is a bench player doesnt mean jshizit

I mean I hope its not true but he was pretty awful last year with situational awareness. Kevin Love wanted to rip his head off on like 10 different occasions because he doesnt see the obvious play with his tunnel vision.

I dont know if thats something he can learn or if its just ingrained in him. Its very Dion Waiters-esq