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Cavs 2020-21 season

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Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#1 » by jbk1234 » Wed Dec 2, 2020 12:48 am

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#2 » by Harper4Ferry? » Wed Dec 2, 2020 2:17 am

Win predictions? Since we're going in halves, I'd say 12-24, and hopefully something like 17-19 for a total of 29-43

Obviously bad but not completely wretched awful. That would be 32-33 win pace in a regular 82 game season. Then again, I'd be hard pressed to find any team in the East we should even be better than.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#3 » by jbk1234 » Wed Dec 2, 2020 2:30 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Win predictions? Since we're going in halves, I'd say 12-24, and hopefully something like 17-19 for a total of 29-43

Obviously bad but not completely wretched awful. That would be 32-33 win pace in a regular 82 game season. Then again, I'd be hard pressed to find any team in the East we should even be better than.
We should be better the Knicks, Bulls and the Magic. Maybe the Hornets and Pistons. I think the Celtics are going take a big step back this year with Hayward walking and Kemba's knee. The Wizards could implode if Wall isn't the same.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#4 » by Revenged25 » Wed Dec 2, 2020 2:42 am

If they actually try to put the best rotations/line-ups on the floor instead of forcing minutes when they shouldn't be, 36-36. If they follow the same pattern as last year, 24-48.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#5 » by jbk1234 » Wed Dec 2, 2020 3:11 am

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#6 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 2, 2020 5:44 am

jbk1234 wrote:
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Funny because Nance is coming off the bench and will be likely paired with dg who should also be a bench player lol.
Cavs media want so bad for dg to be anything besides what he was in year 1 .
If he earns the fn role im all for him getting higher reps but the best player at the bubble lol no chance
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#7 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 2, 2020 6:14 am

There are no valid legal arguments that people have any right to not wear masks in public at this point. Being asymptomatic or unaware if you are positive, does not make you exempt from any obligations to ensure society is free from your germs.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#8 » by jbk1234 » Thu Dec 3, 2020 12:49 am

Welp, it sounds like the Cavs are going with a starting backcourt of Garland/Sexton again. I just hate this for both guards and the starting unit as a whole.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#9 » by JonFromVA » Fri Dec 4, 2020 4:56 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20]

Funny because Nance is coming off the bench and will be likely paired with dg who should also be a bench player lol.
Cavs media want so bad for dg to be anything besides what he was in year 1 .
If he earns the fn role im all for him getting higher reps but the best player at the bubble lol no chance


You're a tough sell if you won't even give Garland credit for being the best player in series of controlled practices. That's still a long way from best player in training camp, or best player in pre-season, or best player in the regular season.

Growth from young players is expected and it's far better that Darius is showing something and his teammates are supporting him - then the opposite.

As for Nance, he says he's looking forward to a bigger role this season. Even without trading Kevin or Andre, that could come about just from all the back to backs in the schedule.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#10 » by JonFromVA » Fri Dec 4, 2020 5:11 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Welp, it sounds like the Cavs are going with a starting backcourt of Garland/Sexton again. I just hate this for both guards and the starting unit as a whole.


I keep trying tell you, no reason to hate.

Our best case is both guards play great. Period.

Then at least if we decide we need to move one of them to get to the next stage, we'll get something back.

And if as you expect, playing together makes them both look bad ... well ... there just has to be decent alternatives that doesn't involve players not in the future of the team. But we know even less about the other young players on the team beyond that they're physically taller.

On paper, Garland-Okoro-Windler could make for a terrific group of wings as starters or off the bench; but 2 of those guys haven't even played in the NBA. Porter Jr is another possibility but he's got a lot to work on, on both sides of the ball.

I don't know much about how JBB thinks and/or how much the organization wants to salvage Love and Drummond long-term, but there's an alternate reality where we're going to see a lot of Delly and Exum. Maybe even some of the GLeague-level guys we've picked up if they show they can fill a role and not hurt the team.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Fri Dec 4, 2020 6:09 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Welp, it sounds like the Cavs are going with a starting backcourt of Garland/Sexton again. I just hate this for both guards and the starting unit as a whole.


I keep trying tell you, no reason to hate.

Our best case is both guards play great. Period.

Then at least if we decide we need to move one of them to get to the next stage, we'll get something back.

And if as you expect, playing together makes them both look bad ... well ... there just has to be decent alternatives that doesn't involve players not in the future of the team. But we know even less about the other young players on the team beyond that they're physically taller.

On paper, Garland-Okoro-Windler could make for a terrific group of wings as starters or off the bench; but 2 of those guys haven't even played in the NBA. Porter Jr is another possibility but he's got a lot to work on, on both sides of the ball.

I don't know much about how JBB thinks and/or how much the organization wants to salvage Love and Drummond long-term, but there's an alternate reality where we're going to see a lot of Delly and Exum. Maybe even some of the GLeague-level guys we've picked up if they show they can fill a role and not hurt the team.


When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#12 » by Revenged25 » Fri Dec 4, 2020 6:49 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Welp, it sounds like the Cavs are going with a starting backcourt of Garland/Sexton again. I just hate this for both guards and the starting unit as a whole.


I keep trying tell you, no reason to hate.

Our best case is both guards play great. Period.

Then at least if we decide we need to move one of them to get to the next stage, we'll get something back.

And if as you expect, playing together makes them both look bad ... well ... there just has to be decent alternatives that doesn't involve players not in the future of the team. But we know even less about the other young players on the team beyond that they're physically taller.

On paper, Garland-Okoro-Windler could make for a terrific group of wings as starters or off the bench; but 2 of those guys haven't even played in the NBA. Porter Jr is another possibility but he's got a lot to work on, on both sides of the ball.

I don't know much about how JBB thinks and/or how much the organization wants to salvage Love and Drummond long-term, but there's an alternate reality where we're going to see a lot of Delly and Exum. Maybe even some of the GLeague-level guys we've picked up if they show they can fill a role and not hurt the team.


When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.


So are you saying Sexton wasn't doing what he was asked to do last year when it's been reported multiple times IIRC that he was told to just focus on scoring? I don't think Sexton is just going out and doing his own thing, I think the coaching last year was poor and didn't help anyone. Hopefully they'll have more structure and understanding what they should be doing and how to play together as a team.

Also I don't think NOP would want Garland since they just drafted Kira Lewis, but a 3 team trade with Ball coming back to the Cavs would have a lot of merit for the Cavs if they could have a reasonable extension worked out prior to the trade. I'd be a little worried about the fact he's a RFA and whether or not he'd be a disruption playing in Cleveland, but if he was willing to sign a reasonable extension and wasn't causing a disruption, I think Ball would be a great fit with what the team needs.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#13 » by jbk1234 » Fri Dec 4, 2020 7:02 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I keep trying tell you, no reason to hate.

Our best case is both guards play great. Period.

Then at least if we decide we need to move one of them to get to the next stage, we'll get something back.

And if as you expect, playing together makes them both look bad ... well ... there just has to be decent alternatives that doesn't involve players not in the future of the team. But we know even less about the other young players on the team beyond that they're physically taller.

On paper, Garland-Okoro-Windler could make for a terrific group of wings as starters or off the bench; but 2 of those guys haven't even played in the NBA. Porter Jr is another possibility but he's got a lot to work on, on both sides of the ball.

I don't know much about how JBB thinks and/or how much the organization wants to salvage Love and Drummond long-term, but there's an alternate reality where we're going to see a lot of Delly and Exum. Maybe even some of the GLeague-level guys we've picked up if they show they can fill a role and not hurt the team.


When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.


So are you saying Sexton wasn't doing what he was asked to do last year when it's been reported multiple times IIRC that he was told to just focus on scoring? I don't think Sexton is just going out and doing his own thing, I think the coaching last year was poor and didn't help anyone. Hopefully they'll have more structure and understanding what they should be doing and how to play together as a team.

Also I don't think NOP would want Garland since they just drafted Kira Lewis, but a 3 team trade with Ball coming back to the Cavs would have a lot of merit for the Cavs if they could have a reasonable extension worked out prior to the trade. I'd be a little worried about the fact he's a RFA and whether or not he'd be a disruption playing in Cleveland, but if he was willing to sign a reasonable extension and wasn't causing a disruption, I think Ball would be a great fit with what the team needs.


Let me say this, the Cavs wouldn't be the first team to cover for a player with friendly leaks like this. But if I'm wrong, and despite watching the Cavs get run out of the gym four out of five games for two months straight while team chemistry designated before their eyes, the Cavs told Sexton to keep doing what he was doing, then I'm ever more fearful of this organization's ability to develop players the correct way.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#14 » by JonFromVA » Fri Dec 4, 2020 7:55 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Welp, it sounds like the Cavs are going with a starting backcourt of Garland/Sexton again. I just hate this for both guards and the starting unit as a whole.


I keep trying tell you, no reason to hate.

Our best case is both guards play great. Period.

Then at least if we decide we need to move one of them to get to the next stage, we'll get something back.

And if as you expect, playing together makes them both look bad ... well ... there just has to be decent alternatives that doesn't involve players not in the future of the team. But we know even less about the other young players on the team beyond that they're physically taller.

On paper, Garland-Okoro-Windler could make for a terrific group of wings as starters or off the bench; but 2 of those guys haven't even played in the NBA. Porter Jr is another possibility but he's got a lot to work on, on both sides of the ball.

I don't know much about how JBB thinks and/or how much the organization wants to salvage Love and Drummond long-term, but there's an alternate reality where we're going to see a lot of Delly and Exum. Maybe even some of the GLeague-level guys we've picked up if they show they can fill a role and not hurt the team.


When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.


Otoh ... I'm confident both Collin and Darius are trying to do what's asked of them. I'm also confident that if we asked Collin to run an offense that isn't designed to cope with the fact he doesn't know how to do that, that it will fail miserably.

Offensively, Collin can play SG. It would help if he speeds up his decision making, but that's a minor tweak. If he doesn't regress again at the beginning of the season like he did last, his scoring efficiency is already valuable. Darius needs to be a threat in the paint and our bigs need to be able to finish and a whole lot of his game will suddenly open up for him.

Yes, there are defensive problems and as I've pointed out they predate both guards. You can't wreck something that's already been demo'd, and you can't expect improvement from untested players.

So it's no catastrophe to see what we've got, where they're at, and who is and who isn't ready to play winning ball ... and hey, if Collin showed he was more ready to be our starting PG then anybody else on the team, I'd be perfectly fine seeing him get that chance ... but setting him up to fail doesn't help him.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#15 » by JonFromVA » Fri Dec 4, 2020 8:19 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.


So are you saying Sexton wasn't doing what he was asked to do last year when it's been reported multiple times IIRC that he was told to just focus on scoring? I don't think Sexton is just going out and doing his own thing, I think the coaching last year was poor and didn't help anyone. Hopefully they'll have more structure and understanding what they should be doing and how to play together as a team.

Also I don't think NOP would want Garland since they just drafted Kira Lewis, but a 3 team trade with Ball coming back to the Cavs would have a lot of merit for the Cavs if they could have a reasonable extension worked out prior to the trade. I'd be a little worried about the fact he's a RFA and whether or not he'd be a disruption playing in Cleveland, but if he was willing to sign a reasonable extension and wasn't causing a disruption, I think Ball would be a great fit with what the team needs.


Let me say this, the Cavs wouldn't be the first team to cover for a player with friendly leaks like this. But if I'm wrong, and despite watching the Cavs get run out of the gym four out of five games for two months straight while team chemistry designated before their eyes, the Cavs told Sexton to keep doing what he was doing, then I'm ever more fearful of this organization's ability to develop players the correct way.


"focus on scoring" is the same thing we told Kyrie when LeBron quickly got sick of him trying to run the offense. The problem here is Collin is starting from even further behind in his PG skills than Kyrie.

And while it would be great from a contract POV if Collin would "show me" in his 3rd Season, that's not always how a player develops.

Kyle Lowry didn't even become a starting PG until his 5th season in the league at age 24. Didn't really breakout until he was 27 and on his 3rd team. Chauncey Billup's career followed a similar path.

Which isn't to say Collin is anything like them, it's just to point out his clock and his ceiling may not fit the window you (or the Cavs) will be willing to grant him.

But his scoring ability has been coming along great, so why not let him focus on that?
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Fri Dec 4, 2020 8:36 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I keep trying tell you, no reason to hate.

Our best case is both guards play great. Period.

Then at least if we decide we need to move one of them to get to the next stage, we'll get something back.

And if as you expect, playing together makes them both look bad ... well ... there just has to be decent alternatives that doesn't involve players not in the future of the team. But we know even less about the other young players on the team beyond that they're physically taller.

On paper, Garland-Okoro-Windler could make for a terrific group of wings as starters or off the bench; but 2 of those guys haven't even played in the NBA. Porter Jr is another possibility but he's got a lot to work on, on both sides of the ball.

I don't know much about how JBB thinks and/or how much the organization wants to salvage Love and Drummond long-term, but there's an alternate reality where we're going to see a lot of Delly and Exum. Maybe even some of the GLeague-level guys we've picked up if they show they can fill a role and not hurt the team.


When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.


Otoh ... I'm confident both Collin and Darius are trying to do what's asked of them. I'm also confident that if we asked Collin to run an offense that isn't designed to cope with the fact he doesn't know how to do that, that it will fail miserably.

Offensively, Collin can play SG. It would help if he speeds up his decision making, but that's a minor tweak. If he doesn't regress again at the beginning of the season like he did last, his scoring efficiency is already valuable. Darius needs to be a threat in the paint and our bigs need to be able to finish and a whole lot of his game will suddenly open up for him.

Yes, there are defensive problems and as I've pointed out they predate both guards. You can't wreck something that's already been demo'd, and you can't expect improvement from untested players.

So it's no catastrophe to see what we've got, where they're at, and who is and who isn't ready to play winning ball ... and hey, if Collin showed he was more ready to be our starting PG then anybody else on the team, I'd be perfectly fine seeing him get that chance ... but setting him up to fail doesn't help him.


I'm less confident than you that Sexton would fail miserably at running an offense if not only asked, but insisted upon by the Cavs. But I really believe that the Cavs need a definitive answer to that question sooner rather later. It's important, one way or another, in how they evaluate him, and how they build this team, going forward. It's also probably important for Collin to feel like he was given a fair chance to do it if a decision is made to send him to the bench down the line.

They simply cannot have that as open question at the start of next season or during extension discussions. If the answer is absolutely not, running an offense and getting his teammates looks is simply not a skill set he possesses, they need to know that this season. You give that young man a starter's extension, and poison pill his contract, and you've destroyed his trade value. You burn off this year where a capped out team could use him in not only one, but two post seasons runs, and you've lowered his trade value, perhaps significantly. Well-run teams don't find themselves victims of circumstances of their own making.

Moreover, if Garland plays better with KPJ, and he does, then why are we sacrificing his ability to develop by playing him alongside Sexton? If the Cavs have questions about Garland, then they should really put him in the best position to succeed also, so they can get answers to those questions. Maybe they should trade him for Ball and some draft capital if they're higher on Sexton than Garland. But you've really want to be confident in knowing what these two young men do and don't do well before making long term decisions with regard to either of them, before you circumstances start dictating some of those decisions for you. Those answers aren't going to be as clearer, if they're clear at all, so long as they're playing alongside one another.

As far as defense, advanced stats would strongly disagree with the bolded. They're not the end all be all, but I don't get why so many Cavs fans are fine just ignoring what they tell us about the defensive impact of playing those two together (or separately for that matter).
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#17 » by jbk1234 » Fri Dec 4, 2020 8:47 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
So are you saying Sexton wasn't doing what he was asked to do last year when it's been reported multiple times IIRC that he was told to just focus on scoring? I don't think Sexton is just going out and doing his own thing, I think the coaching last year was poor and didn't help anyone. Hopefully they'll have more structure and understanding what they should be doing and how to play together as a team.

Also I don't think NOP would want Garland since they just drafted Kira Lewis, but a 3 team trade with Ball coming back to the Cavs would have a lot of merit for the Cavs if they could have a reasonable extension worked out prior to the trade. I'd be a little worried about the fact he's a RFA and whether or not he'd be a disruption playing in Cleveland, but if he was willing to sign a reasonable extension and wasn't causing a disruption, I think Ball would be a great fit with what the team needs.


Let me say this, the Cavs wouldn't be the first team to cover for a player with friendly leaks like this. But if I'm wrong, and despite watching the Cavs get run out of the gym four out of five games for two months straight while team chemistry designated before their eyes, the Cavs told Sexton to keep doing what he was doing, then I'm ever more fearful of this organization's ability to develop players the correct way.


"focus on scoring" is the same thing we told Kyrie when LeBron quickly got sick of him trying to run the offense. The problem here is Collin is starting from even further behind in his PG skills than Kyrie.

And while it would be great from a contract POV if Collin would "show me" in his 3rd Season, that's not always how a player develops.

Kyle Lowry didn't even become a starting PG until his 5th season in the league at age 24. Didn't really breakout until he was 27 and on his 3rd team. Chauncey Billup's career followed a similar path.

Which isn't to say Collin is anything like them, it's just to point out his clock and his ceiling may not fit the window you (or the Cavs) will be willing to grant him.

But his scoring ability has been coming along great, so why not let him focus on that?


Stillwater and I just had this discussion. Letting a young player do what they do well as a starter, and nothing else, when the team is losing in demoralizing fashion, is garbage development. The Spurs only started Kawhi Leonard 38 games his rookie year. Brown and Smart both started less than 40 games their rookie year. Bam barely started his first two years and Herro only started nine games last season.

I'm 100% fine with players who develop at different rates, but their role and minutes should reflect that. There should be expectations for players who start in the NBA that go well beyond focus on the one thing you do well. Otherwise, you're not really developing them at all.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#18 » by Stillwater » Fri Dec 4, 2020 9:59 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20]

Funny because Nance is coming off the bench and will be likely paired with dg who should also be a bench player lol.
Cavs media want so bad for dg to be anything besides what he was in year 1 .
If he earns the fn role im all for him getting higher reps but the best player at the bubble lol no chance


You're a tough sell if you won't even give Garland credit for being the best player in series of controlled practices. That's still a long way from best player in training camp, or best player in pre-season, or best player in the regular season.

Growth from young players is expected and it's far better that Darius is showing something and his teammates are supporting him - then the opposite.

As for Nance, he says he's looking forward to a bigger role this season. Even without trading Kevin or Andre, that could come about just from all the back to backs in the schedule.

I know I come off as a dg hater but all I am saying is I dont believe he was the best player in the bubble however the word best could be substituted with the phrase:" most improved" and I could buy into that being likely and positive news since he obviously had to get busy during the long break to even justify a roster spot on any other NBA roster after last season where he was considered arguably the worst starter in the NBA
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#19 » by Stillwater » Fri Dec 4, 2020 10:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
When I say playing Garland and Sexton together isn't fair to Garland or Sexton, to say nothing of the three other guys sharing the court with them, that's exactly what I mean. I think Sexton should've been given a chance in his third year to show he was capable of running an offense and sharing the ball. If at this point, he was still incapable, then the situation is what it is. He's a prolific scorer who can create his own shot on reasonable efficiency, but he's not much more. He either comes off the bench or is traded. He's cost controlled and could probably start on a team like the Sixers or Pelicans who have Simmons and Ball. Or, maybe trade Garland for Ball and draft capital. Or, trade him to a capped out contender that really needs bench scoring. Or, maybe we're anticipating problems that won't arise and Sexton will be fine getting a ton of buckets off the bench.

Ideally, you're hiding Garland and Sexton some on defense, and even if they both show significant improvement on that end, they're unlikely to ever get to replacement level. You can't hide Garland and Sexton together. If the majority of Garland's value comes from having the ball in his hands and running an offense, then putting him out there with Sexton negates a lot of his value. Sexton reminds of Kyrie in that if he's not going to do what's asked, you need someone with more stature to come along and just take the ball out of his hands. That's not Garland and likely won't be while the two are on rookie contracts. Whatever the opposite of synergy is, these two have it.

Overall, I'm uncomfortable with the repeated opportunity costs being paid by the Cavs in trying to slam a square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer. This is Sexton's third year and that's the show-me year for guys on rookie contracts. I would've given him the starting job along with clear expectations. It's hard to hold players accountable when you're also providing them with legitimate excuses for things not working out.


So are you saying Sexton wasn't doing what he was asked to do last year when it's been reported multiple times IIRC that he was told to just focus on scoring? I don't think Sexton is just going out and doing his own thing, I think the coaching last year was poor and didn't help anyone. Hopefully they'll have more structure and understanding what they should be doing and how to play together as a team.

Also I don't think NOP would want Garland since they just drafted Kira Lewis, but a 3 team trade with Ball coming back to the Cavs would have a lot of merit for the Cavs if they could have a reasonable extension worked out prior to the trade. I'd be a little worried about the fact he's a RFA and whether or not he'd be a disruption playing in Cleveland, but if he was willing to sign a reasonable extension and wasn't causing a disruption, I think Ball would be a great fit with what the team needs.


Let me say this, the Cavs wouldn't be the first team to cover for a player with friendly leaks like this. But if I'm wrong, and despite watching the Cavs get run out of the gym four out of five games for two months straight while team chemistry designated before their eyes, the Cavs told Sexton to keep doing what he was doing, then I'm ever more fearful of this organization's ability to develop players the correct way.

I honestly chalk it up to both and more factors really tugging from many sides where Beilein pretty much lost the vets from day 1 tried to instill his plans with Sexton and DG who were trying to buy in but most were more in tune with Gottlieb etc all the young players were prioritized by the front office and most of the struggles with the team that was basically divided by the prioritizing of playing DG before he was ready and having to rely heavily on Sexton to score because of DGs struggles were not based on doing or not doing what anyone was told and more likely just a bunch of disorganized crap. JBB cleans this up imo but there is no chance we dont see the priority remaining the young core this season just hopefully there is a better chemistry and more defined roles.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#20 » by jbk1234 » Fri Dec 4, 2020 10:34 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
So are you saying Sexton wasn't doing what he was asked to do last year when it's been reported multiple times IIRC that he was told to just focus on scoring? I don't think Sexton is just going out and doing his own thing, I think the coaching last year was poor and didn't help anyone. Hopefully they'll have more structure and understanding what they should be doing and how to play together as a team.

Also I don't think NOP would want Garland since they just drafted Kira Lewis, but a 3 team trade with Ball coming back to the Cavs would have a lot of merit for the Cavs if they could have a reasonable extension worked out prior to the trade. I'd be a little worried about the fact he's a RFA and whether or not he'd be a disruption playing in Cleveland, but if he was willing to sign a reasonable extension and wasn't causing a disruption, I think Ball would be a great fit with what the team needs.


Let me say this, the Cavs wouldn't be the first team to cover for a player with friendly leaks like this. But if I'm wrong, and despite watching the Cavs get run out of the gym four out of five games for two months straight while team chemistry designated before their eyes, the Cavs told Sexton to keep doing what he was doing, then I'm ever more fearful of this organization's ability to develop players the correct way.

I honestly chalk it up to both and more factors really tugging from many sides where Beilein pretty much lost the vets from day 1 tried to instill his plans with Sexton and DG who were trying to buy in but most were more in tune with Gottlieb etc all the young players were prioritized by the front office and most of the struggles with the team that was basically divided by the prioritizing of playing DG before he was ready and having to rely heavily on Sexton to score because of DGs struggles were not based on doing or not doing what anyone was told and more likely just a bunch of disorganized crap. JBB cleans this up imo but there is no chance we dont see the priority remaining the young core this season just hopefully there is a better chemistry and more defined roles.


And maybe this is the fundamental disconnect. I just don't see giving young guys unlimited and unconditional minutes as starters, while you're losing badly and to the overall detriment of the team, as *good* development. I also don't think front offices should worry about draft position when making a decision about starting. That's the sign of an insecure organization more worried about the perception of whether they missed, than an indication that they're bringing a player along in a way that's best for the player and the organization.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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