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Cavs 2020-21 season

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#361 » by jbk1234 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:59 pm

I'm having a difficult time getting too excited about flashes or glimpses, in a season where reversion to the mean has been the norm, but I felt like Garland and Sexton did a pretty good job of playing as a unit to beat the Celtics late game press, and the Celtics are really good at it.

It wasn't always pretty or perfect, but they made themselves available to one another when the other guy was getting trapped often enough, that the team got the W.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#362 » by jbk1234 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:13 pm

Sounds like Delly is getting ready to return sooner rather than later.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#363 » by JonFromVA » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Just something I've noticed. (oversimplifying prob) The cavs guards drive and it's like 90% certain they will take a runner/drive of some sort. Other teams guards drive and 2 passes to the perimeter later someone is taking a wide open 3 from the corner or wing. Our games always feel like it's Colin's turn, then it's Darius', back and forth. Guys go 5 minute stretches without touching the ball. I know it's a byproduct of who can create their own shot, but guys like Okoro may as well set up a folding chair on the perimeter while we are on offense.

Also big props to DWade, keep firing them 3's without shame. Maybe it'll catch on with other players.


That's practicable to an extent ... if they could practice. It's all about reading the D, knowing your teammates and how they will read the D.

Collin still needs to learn how to play slower and avoid driving in to a wall ... albeit better floor spacing would help avoid that.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#364 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:13 pm

That dead sprint turnaround curl from 3 shot that Cedi attempts multiple times a game is really starting to trigger me.

Cedi, the defender isn't even bothering to go over the pick most of the time. Take the handoff, square up and shoot.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#365 » by Stillwater » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:05 pm

jbk1234 wrote:That dead sprint turnaround curl from 3 shot that Cedi attempts multiple times a game is really starting to trigger me.

Cedi, the defender isn't even bothering to go over the pick most of the time. Take the handoff, square up and shoot.

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hes just going through the motions practicing a low % shot looking to be traded imo
playing on LBJ teams compared to this is a long way to fall
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#366 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:36 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:That dead sprint turnaround curl from 3 shot that Cedi attempts multiple times a game is really starting to trigger me.

Cedi, the defender isn't even bothering to go over the pick most of the time. Take the handoff, square up and shoot.

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hes just going through the motions practicing a low % shot looking to be traded imo
playing on LBJ teams compared to this is a long way to fall
There's just so many stupid, easily fixable things that different players do that aren't getting fixed and it's getting really frustrating. Allen is getting dogpiled on the boards, after rotating to help, over and over again with minimal help from his teammates. The season is lost. Start using the pine as an instructional device if players aren't listening.

Just getting guys to play the right way and cutting out the stupid/lazy stuff would go a ways to improving this team.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#367 » by Stillwater » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:36 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:That dead sprint turnaround curl from 3 shot that Cedi attempts multiple times a game is really starting to trigger me.

Cedi, the defender isn't even bothering to go over the pick most of the time. Take the handoff, square up and shoot.

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hes just going through the motions practicing a low % shot looking to be traded imo
playing on LBJ teams compared to this is a long way to fall
There's just so many stupid, easily fixable things that different players do that aren't getting fixed and it's getting really frustrating. Allen is getting dogpiled on the boards, after rotating to help, over and over again with minimal help from his teammates. The season is lost. Start using the pine as an instructional device if players aren't listening.

Just getting guys to play the right way and cutting out the stupid/lazy stuff would go a ways to improving this team.

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yep well there is the problem you have with pro athletes on a roster with no clear cut first options because the org and coaching staff are trying to work around that and win games with massive holes in their roster. I dont think any amount of benching will solve anything at this point because the players that are messing up the most are the ones they have invested the most in and need the most pt
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#368 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:19 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:hes just going through the motions practicing a low % shot looking to be traded imo
playing on LBJ teams compared to this is a long way to fall
There's just so many stupid, easily fixable things that different players do that aren't getting fixed and it's getting really frustrating. Allen is getting dogpiled on the boards, after rotating to help, over and over again with minimal help from his teammates. The season is lost. Start using the pine as an instructional device if players aren't listening.

Just getting guys to play the right way and cutting out the stupid/lazy stuff would go a ways to improving this team.

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yep well there is the problem you have with pro athletes on a roster with no clear cut first options because the org and coaching staff are trying to work around that and win games with massive holes in their roster. I dont think any amount of benching will solve anything at this point because the players that are messing up the most are the ones they have invested the most in and need the most pt


You don't need a clear cut first option on the roster to play the game the right way. Well run teams play above their talent level precisely because the do the little things that matter and refrain from doing the dumb/lazy things that waste possessions or the defensive efforts of their teammates. The reason they get guys to do that is because when they don't do that, they go have a seat.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#369 » by Stillwater » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:06 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:There's just so many stupid, easily fixable things that different players do that aren't getting fixed and it's getting really frustrating. Allen is getting dogpiled on the boards, after rotating to help, over and over again with minimal help from his teammates. The season is lost. Start using the pine as an instructional device if players aren't listening.

Just getting guys to play the right way and cutting out the stupid/lazy stuff would go a ways to improving this team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

yep well there is the problem you have with pro athletes on a roster with no clear cut first options because the org and coaching staff are trying to work around that and win games with massive holes in their roster. I dont think any amount of benching will solve anything at this point because the players that are messing up the most are the ones they have invested the most in and need the most pt


You don't need a clear cut first option on the roster to play the game the right way. Well run teams play above their talent level precisely because the do the little things that matter and refrain from doing the dumb/lazy things that waste possessions or the defensive efforts of their teammates. The reason they get guys to do that is because when they don't do that, they go have a seat.

I thought you wanted to tank lol benching young core players doesnt work at the nba level if they are already busting their respective asses and it just isnt working anyway.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#370 » by jbk1234 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:37 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:yep well there is the problem you have with pro athletes on a roster with no clear cut first options because the org and coaching staff are trying to work around that and win games with massive holes in their roster. I dont think any amount of benching will solve anything at this point because the players that are messing up the most are the ones they have invested the most in and need the most pt


You don't need a clear cut first option on the roster to play the game the right way. Well run teams play above their talent level precisely because the do the little things that matter and refrain from doing the dumb/lazy things that waste possessions or the defensive efforts of their teammates. The reason they get guys to do that is because when they don't do that, they go have a seat.

I thought you wanted to tank lol benching young core players doesnt work at the nba level if they are already busting their respective asses and it just isnt working anyway.


I don't want them to make a short-term trade that will make them better for the last third of the season. What I would like is for them to start developing good habits that will carry through to next season.

A good portion of what I'm talking about is just the Cavs being slow to counter how other teams adjust after scouting us. But it's well past time for Okoro, Sexton, and even Garland to help out Allen on the boards when he's getting triple teamed and Nance is defending a three point attempt at the perimeter. That's a halftime adjustment, not an unlock in film session after several games. Garland and Sexton refusing to take 3 points shots, even open looks, to bust up a zone or packed paint is something that should've been addressed 15 or 20 games ago.

Some of it, though, is just fundamentally bad. McGee chucking up a three early in the shot clock is a bad play every time. Cedi's dead sprint curl 3 is a bad play every time. Windler repeatedly getting one or zero attempts from 3 point range is mindboggling. Same with Wade. Sexton still reverts to five to ten seconds of ISO dribbling before he drives on his guy, or decides it's not there and passes with time running out. Both guards, heck the entire team, is still guilty of lazy passing that results in turnovers. That stuff lets the defense off the hook and will get you beat. It will get you beat regardless of whether you add a top 5 talent next draft.

If the team can play fundamentally sound basketball and that results in a few more wins than are ideal in terms of draft position, then I'll take it, because it will result in even more wins next season, and the season after that, and the season after that...
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#371 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
You don't need a clear cut first option on the roster to play the game the right way. Well run teams play above their talent level precisely because the do the little things that matter and refrain from doing the dumb/lazy things that waste possessions or the defensive efforts of their teammates. The reason they get guys to do that is because when they don't do that, they go have a seat.

I thought you wanted to tank lol benching young core players doesnt work at the nba level if they are already busting their respective asses and it just isnt working anyway.


I don't want them to make a short-term trade that will make them better for the last third of the season. What I would like is for them to start developing good habits that will carry through to next season.

A good portion of what I'm talking about is just the Cavs being slow to counter how other teams adjust after scouting us. But it's well past time for Okoro, Sexton, and even Garland to help out Allen on the boards when he's getting triple teamed and Nance is defending a three point attempt at the perimeter. That's a halftime adjustment, not an unlock in film session after several games. Garland and Sexton refusing to take 3 points shots, even open looks, to bust up a zone or packed paint is something that should've been addressed 15 or 20 games ago.

Some of it, though, is just fundamentally bad. McGee chucking up a three early in the shot clock is a bad play every time. Cedi's dead sprint curl 3 is a bad play every time. Windler repeatedly getting one or zero attempts from 3 point range is mindboggling. Same with Wade. Sexton still reverts to five to ten seconds of ISO dribbling before he drives on his guy, or decides it's not there and passes with time running out. Both guards, heck the entire team, is still guilty of lazy passing that results in turnovers. That stuff lets the defense off the hook and will get you beat. It will get you beat regardless of whether you add a top 5 talent next draft.

If the team can play fundamentally sound basketball and that results in a few more wins than are ideal in terms of draft position, then I'll take it, because it will result in even more wins next season, and the season after that, and the season after that...


They were talking with Allen during the broadcast and he touched on the topic, said they were trying some things to adapt and prevent the paint from getting so packed even if it meant he had to act as more of a distraction then a target.

The important thing IMO is the team has bounced back from their losing streaks, they're not getting stuck in a rut. While I wasn't exactly easy on them during the losing streaks, I think we have to throw Bickerstaff and his assistants a mulligan for the season. Apparently they can't even run a shoot around before games. They have to walk through plays in a hotel ball room. The schedule is packed and they won't even have time for practices even if they could run them.

It's a slog but as long as the team isn't getting stuck in the mud, I think we'll need to accept what happens.

I wonder if teams will be more conservative than usual at the trade deadline due to the extra difficulties there are going to be with incorporating new players - unless they clearly fill an obvious roster hole.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#372 » by Stillwater » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:41 pm

it is a tough grind when you cannot practice on the road at all and its amazing to me this season is still rolling with the covid impact being so easily brushed aside etc. I dont really know if they ever really thought they would get anything for Dre but wtf if they dont why did they rest him if they are not tanking...they are imo if he does not get traded
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#373 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:01 pm

Stillwater wrote:it is a tough grind when you cannot practice on the road at all and its amazing to me this season is still rolling with the covid impact being so easily brushed aside etc. I dont really know if they ever really thought they would get anything for Dre but wtf if they dont why did they rest him if they are not tanking...they are imo if he does not get traded


Once we acquired Allen, we no longer needed to experiment to see how our guards would look with a 7ft stand-in. We needed to move quickly in to integrating Allen and convincing him he wants to re-sign with us.

As for Andre, maybe he refused to come off the bench? Or maybe we'd simply seen enough of how he plays after he realizes he'd been replaced and wasn't going to get a $30M/year contract from the Cavs, combined with the hope that if he didn't go and get himself hurt, we might be able to trade him for something.

Ultimately the market speaks louder than we do. No matter how badly the Cavs bungle things, if other teams thought we were sitting on talent - we'd get some decent offers.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#374 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:25 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:it is a tough grind when you cannot practice on the road at all and its amazing to me this season is still rolling with the covid impact being so easily brushed aside etc. I dont really know if they ever really thought they would get anything for Dre but wtf if they dont why did they rest him if they are not tanking...they are imo if he does not get traded


Once we acquired Allen, we no longer needed to experiment to see how our guards would look with a 7ft stand-in. We needed to move quickly in to integrating Allen and convincing him he wants to re-sign with us.

As for Andre, maybe he refused to come off the bench? Or maybe we'd simply seen enough of how he plays after he realizes he'd been replaced and wasn't going to get a $30M/year contract from the Cavs, combined with the hope that if he didn't go and get himself hurt, we might be able to trade him for something.

Ultimately the market speaks louder than we do. No matter how badly the Cavs bungle things, if other teams thought we were sitting on talent - we'd get some decent offers.
I read on one of the local websites that it was actually Drummond who came to the Cavs to complain about the minute allocation in a contract year after we traded for Allen. This was before we decided to start Allen. If true, and these guys sources aren't always as good as they like to think, then Drummond made the decision easy.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#375 » by JonFromVA » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:56 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:it is a tough grind when you cannot practice on the road at all and its amazing to me this season is still rolling with the covid impact being so easily brushed aside etc. I dont really know if they ever really thought they would get anything for Dre but wtf if they dont why did they rest him if they are not tanking...they are imo if he does not get traded


Once we acquired Allen, we no longer needed to experiment to see how our guards would look with a 7ft stand-in. We needed to move quickly in to integrating Allen and convincing him he wants to re-sign with us.

As for Andre, maybe he refused to come off the bench? Or maybe we'd simply seen enough of how he plays after he realizes he'd been replaced and wasn't going to get a $30M/year contract from the Cavs, combined with the hope that if he didn't go and get himself hurt, we might be able to trade him for something.

Ultimately the market speaks louder than we do. No matter how badly the Cavs bungle things, if other teams thought we were sitting on talent - we'd get some decent offers.
I read on one of the local websites that it was actually Drummond who came to the Cavs to complain about the minute allocation in a contract year after we traded for Allen. This was before we decided to start Allen. If true, and these guys sources aren't always as good as they like to think, then Drummond made the decision easy.


Andre's agent agent should have sat him down and reset his expectations and approach for this next contract. JBB grants his players a lot of freedom to try to be their best, but someone needed to tell Andre his best was going to be showing he could stay focused on the floor, play D, protect the rim, share the ball, and do the little things to help his teammate like setting real screens, rim running, getting back in transition, executing the P&R properly, etc, etc.

The days he was going to get paid $30M/yr because he filled the box score with 20 & 15's ended last Summer.

Hassan Whiteside's salary jumped from $27M/year down to $2M/year. If that happens to Andre, he should probably try to sue his agent for the difference. The negligence here is potentially that bad, because he should at least be earning himself a contract in the $12M to $18M range.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#376 » by Revenged25 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:00 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Once we acquired Allen, we no longer needed to experiment to see how our guards would look with a 7ft stand-in. We needed to move quickly in to integrating Allen and convincing him he wants to re-sign with us.

As for Andre, maybe he refused to come off the bench? Or maybe we'd simply seen enough of how he plays after he realizes he'd been replaced and wasn't going to get a $30M/year contract from the Cavs, combined with the hope that if he didn't go and get himself hurt, we might be able to trade him for something.

Ultimately the market speaks louder than we do. No matter how badly the Cavs bungle things, if other teams thought we were sitting on talent - we'd get some decent offers.
I read on one of the local websites that it was actually Drummond who came to the Cavs to complain about the minute allocation in a contract year after we traded for Allen. This was before we decided to start Allen. If true, and these guys sources aren't always as good as they like to think, then Drummond made the decision easy.


Andre's agent agent should have sat him down and reset his expectations and approach for this next contract. JBB grants his players a lot of freedom to try to be their best, but someone needed to tell Andre his best was going to be showing he could stay focused on the floor, play D, protect the rim, share the ball, and do the little things to help his teammate like setting real screens, rim running, getting back in transition, executing the P&R properly, etc, etc.

The days he was going to get paid $30M/yr because he filled the box score with 20 & 15's ended last Summer.

Hassan Whiteside's salary jumped from $27M/year down to $2M/year. If that happens to Andre, he should probably try to sue his agent for the difference. The negligence here is potentially that bad, because he should at least be earning himself a contract in the $12M to $18M range.


Honestly if he just played within the offense like Allen has been even with reduced minutes he would be putting up probably 16/12 and the fact he would likely be much more efficient in those points means he would be able to try and approach even $20M range by showing he can accept not being the focal point and help a team win. I mean could you imagine a legit center rotation of Allen/Drummond both playing within their roles on the team? Cavs would be back into playoff contention and Drummond would be looking at a better payday than he is right now.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#377 » by JonFromVA » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:18 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I read on one of the local websites that it was actually Drummond who came to the Cavs to complain about the minute allocation in a contract year after we traded for Allen. This was before we decided to start Allen. If true, and these guys sources aren't always as good as they like to think, then Drummond made the decision easy.


Andre's agent agent should have sat him down and reset his expectations and approach for this next contract. JBB grants his players a lot of freedom to try to be their best, but someone needed to tell Andre his best was going to be showing he could stay focused on the floor, play D, protect the rim, share the ball, and do the little things to help his teammate like setting real screens, rim running, getting back in transition, executing the P&R properly, etc, etc.

The days he was going to get paid $30M/yr because he filled the box score with 20 & 15's ended last Summer.

Hassan Whiteside's salary jumped from $27M/year down to $2M/year. If that happens to Andre, he should probably try to sue his agent for the difference. The negligence here is potentially that bad, because he should at least be earning himself a contract in the $12M to $18M range.


Honestly if he just played within the offense like Allen has been even with reduced minutes he would be putting up probably 16/12 and the fact he would likely be much more efficient in those points means he would be able to try and approach even $20M range by showing he can accept not being the focal point and help a team win. I mean could you imagine a legit center rotation of Allen/Drummond both playing within their roles on the team? Cavs would be back into playoff contention and Drummond would be looking at a better payday than he is right now.


Of course Andre's greatest weakness since UConn has been staying focused on the game, so, this result probably shouldn't surprise anyone; but was I kind of hoping the Piston's throwing in the towel on him last Summer would have sufficed as a wake-up call.

It complicates things that our ownership, GM, and coach are all enablers; or we might had tried to set some expectations for him.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#378 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:52 pm

Meanwhile there is a chance the Mavs dump JJ and Powell our way for him as they are a terrible rebounding team and despite not having a ton of draft capitol to ship out are more than capable of justifying sending their 21 2nd and a young wing or forward like Hinton or Bey as incentive I would even think CLE could justify sending back the SAS 22 2nd if the Mavs sent Terry instead of a 2nd.
Getting off Powells deal and taking a flier on Dre to if nothing else improve their rotation at the price of Terry seems fair but even if they balk at that they would surely consider it for their 21 2nd and Tyler Bey ...
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#379 » by Harper4Ferry? » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:02 pm

we're better off buying out Dre than taking back Powell. Powell making 10+ million would seriously restrict our ability to use the Midlevel and stay under the tax in his 2 remaining years.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#380 » by jbk1234 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:12 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:we're better off buying out Dre than taking back Powell. Powell making 10+ million would seriously restrict our ability to use the Midlevel and stay under the tax in his 2 remaining years.
Yep. I'd need a second for Drummond and a 1st to eat Powell.

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