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Cavs 2020-21 season

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#401 » by jbk1234 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:21 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:There is a chance they refuse to offer him a buyout and try a s/t this summer as at this point the amt of $ saved in a buyout seems unlikely to provide any short term answers and def no long term ones.
But they will buy him out as expected after they sat him for a month which was useless and why people have a problem with it imo. Had they just played him through the process and then opted not to take back $ to move him for a pick or 2 and gave him the buyout it would have looked better on the surface even though the result is the same. As it was everyone pretty much knew he was disgruntled after the trade for Allen and the Cavs had no leverage.
Based on all available reporting, Drummond sitting out was a mutual decision. If he was angry about the minutes Allen was getting, before the Cavs decided to start Allen, then it sounds like Drummond's expectations were unreasonable. Players get a say in how things go down.

Drummond could've beasted of the bench, been a good teammate, and had better trade value. But I suspect neither he nor his agent wanted other teams to perceive him as a really good bench player heading into FA. Sometimes the situation just is what is.

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right I mean I think the problem is they needed to continue to start him to keep his value high and since they were unwilling to do that needing to focus on getting Allen reps with the rest of the young starters they really had no choice if he refused to play off the bench etc. Regardless of what transpired they obviously hoped they would get something besides nothing
Drummond was pretty bad on the West coast trip and any team interested in trading for him was probably watching those games as well. I'm not sure continuing to start him and pretending not to notice would've fooled anyone.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#402 » by Stillwater » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:55 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Based on all available reporting, Drummond sitting out was a mutual decision. If he was angry about the minutes Allen was getting, before the Cavs decided to start Allen, then it sounds like Drummond's expectations were unreasonable. Players get a say in how things go down.

Drummond could've beasted of the bench, been a good teammate, and had better trade value. But I suspect neither he nor his agent wanted other teams to perceive him as a really good bench player heading into FA. Sometimes the situation just is what is.

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right I mean I think the problem is they needed to continue to start him to keep his value high and since they were unwilling to do that needing to focus on getting Allen reps with the rest of the young starters they really had no choice if he refused to play off the bench etc. Regardless of what transpired they obviously hoped they would get something besides nothing
Drummond was pretty bad on the West coast trip and any team interested in trading for him was probably watching those games as well. I'm not sure continuing to start him and pretending not to notice would've fooled anyone.

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Too me it's obvious the problem overall was just the Cavs not as interested in eating any $ coming back for meh picks and meh players which is obviously all that was offered given the amount any given team had to send back that included any useful players was less appealing than trying to get him after he was bought out. I dont think they would have been trying to fool anyone by starting him but if that is the only way he would have kept playing at least it would not have put them in a weak negotiating position had nobody known about the disgruntled Dre.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#403 » by toooskies » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:19 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Drummond getting bought out.

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If I ran the team I'd probably fire Altman over the Drummond thing. Paid him roughly 33 million for 33 games.


Well, it was expected that Drummond was going to opt out of this season until the pandemic hit. It looked like a short-term rental at the time to see what his ceiling was. But let's say that was a firable offense, opting in was a known risk.

I'd re-hire him for getting three 2nds (one when acquiring, two when trading away) for Javale McGee.

And hire him again for getting another young core piece (Allen) for much less than market value.

And hire him again for drafting reasonably well. You can't say for certain whether Sexton was the best player on the board when he was drafted, but anyone who can score 24 a game on reasonable efficiency in his third year is a great pickup at #8, even on a bad team. Garland has developed a lot and shows promise, and at his current trajectory could be the 5th best player in his draft. Not sure what to say about Okoro, other than that there haven't been a lot of winners out of last year's draft and a lot of teams passed on Haliburton/Quickley.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#404 » by JonFromVA » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:39 pm

Andre's value might have gone up if he accepted coming off the bench and played well in the role, but that's not worth $28M/yr either. I'm not fond of catering to players who never learned how to act like a professional, but that's kind of our own fault because we knew Drummond's history.

It's fine for a GM to experiment and great when he can turn nothing in to something, but sometimes the right thing is to just burn the experiment, throw it away, and never look back. We were willing to do that when we traded for Andre, and we eventually followed through in a non-contentious manner before Andre's loss of focus could disrupt the team.

It would be nice if Koby knew exactly which buttons to push to make everything work out, but he's no "zen master" who's played in the league or learned how to inspire people. It would be nice if Koby was an authoritarian who demanded respect and knew how to build a culture with the right types of people ... but NBA players respect primarily two things: money and rings. Alas, Koby has no rings, and any chance of Andre getting a big contract from the Cavs dried up when we traded for Allen.

Nope, he's just a young GM learning on the job, trying not to step on toes, and attempting to build a core of players and coaches with the right attitude and work ethic so he won't have to be something he's not.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#405 » by jbk1234 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:31 pm

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#406 » by jbk1234 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:36 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Andre's value might have gone up if he accepted coming off the bench and played well in the role, but that's not worth $28M/yr either. I'm not fond of catering to players who never learned how to act like a professional, but that's kind of our own fault because we knew Drummond's history.

It's fine for a GM to experiment and great when he can turn nothing in to something, but sometimes the right thing is to just burn the experiment, throw it away, and never look back. We were willing to do that when we traded for Andre, and we eventually followed through in a non-contentious manner before Andre's loss of focus could disrupt the team.

It would be nice if Koby knew exactly which buttons to push to make everything work out, but he's no "zen master" who's played in the league or learned how to inspire people. It would be nice if Koby was an authoritarian who demanded respect and knew how to build a culture with the right types of people ... but NBA players respect primarily two things: money and rings. Alas, Koby has no rings, and any chance of Andre getting a big contract from the Cavs dried up when we traded for Allen.

Nope, he's just a young GM learning on the job, trying not to step on toes, and attempting to build a core of players and coaches with the right attitude and work ethic so he won't have to be something he's not.
Not everything is under the organization's control. The player has a say in how things work out. If you're constantly having to manage a player, that's not a good sign.

Kyrie is taking mini vacations in the middle of the season. I expect the Nets to keep it together to win a title, but after that, there's a decent chance that Harden and Durant decide the drama isn't worth it.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#407 » by JonFromVA » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:53 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Andre's value might have gone up if he accepted coming off the bench and played well in the role, but that's not worth $28M/yr either. I'm not fond of catering to players who never learned how to act like a professional, but that's kind of our own fault because we knew Drummond's history.

It's fine for a GM to experiment and great when he can turn nothing in to something, but sometimes the right thing is to just burn the experiment, throw it away, and never look back. We were willing to do that when we traded for Andre, and we eventually followed through in a non-contentious manner before Andre's loss of focus could disrupt the team.

It would be nice if Koby knew exactly which buttons to push to make everything work out, but he's no "zen master" who's played in the league or learned how to inspire people. It would be nice if Koby was an authoritarian who demanded respect and knew how to build a culture with the right types of people ... but NBA players respect primarily two things: money and rings. Alas, Koby has no rings, and any chance of Andre getting a big contract from the Cavs dried up when we traded for Allen.

Nope, he's just a young GM learning on the job, trying not to step on toes, and attempting to build a core of players and coaches with the right attitude and work ethic so he won't have to be something he's not.
Not everything is under the organization's control. The player has a say in how things work out. If you're constantly having to manage a player, that's not a good sign.

Kyrie is taking mini vacations in the middle of the season. I expect the Nets to keep it together to win a title, but after that, there's a decent chance that Harden and Durant decide the drama isn't worth it.


Technically speaking the team has to first commit to a player before anything the player's says or does means anything, and even after that both sides are bound by the contract, the CBA, and the league's rules. If the team decides not to use all the leverage they can bring to bear against a belligerent player, that's again their choice.

The Nets and Cavs are presumably happy with their choices. The Nets because Kyrie helped bring in Durant and Harden and helped make them a top team; and the Cavs ... well ... because they're not interested in letting Andre become any sort of distraction.

But there's a lesson in every failed experiment, and seeing the team struggling to keep players moving in the direction they want when they've come off the rails has been an ongoing problem. It's basically a sign they don't know what they're doing and they're trying to learn on the fly.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#408 » by jbk1234 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:14 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Andre's value might have gone up if he accepted coming off the bench and played well in the role, but that's not worth $28M/yr either. I'm not fond of catering to players who never learned how to act like a professional, but that's kind of our own fault because we knew Drummond's history.

It's fine for a GM to experiment and great when he can turn nothing in to something, but sometimes the right thing is to just burn the experiment, throw it away, and never look back. We were willing to do that when we traded for Andre, and we eventually followed through in a non-contentious manner before Andre's loss of focus could disrupt the team.

It would be nice if Koby knew exactly which buttons to push to make everything work out, but he's no "zen master" who's played in the league or learned how to inspire people. It would be nice if Koby was an authoritarian who demanded respect and knew how to build a culture with the right types of people ... but NBA players respect primarily two things: money and rings. Alas, Koby has no rings, and any chance of Andre getting a big contract from the Cavs dried up when we traded for Allen.

Nope, he's just a young GM learning on the job, trying not to step on toes, and attempting to build a core of players and coaches with the right attitude and work ethic so he won't have to be something he's not.
Not everything is under the organization's control. The player has a say in how things work out. If you're constantly having to manage a player, that's not a good sign.

Kyrie is taking mini vacations in the middle of the season. I expect the Nets to keep it together to win a title, but after that, there's a decent chance that Harden and Durant decide the drama isn't worth it.


Technically speaking the team has to first commit to a player before anything the player's says or does means anything, and even after that both sides are bound by the contract, the CBA, and the league's rules. If the team decides not to use all the leverage they can bring to bear against a belligerent player, that's again their choice.

The Nets and Cavs are presumably happy with their choices. The Nets because Kyrie helped bring in Durant and Harden and helped make them a top team; and the Cavs ... well ... because they're not interested in letting Andre become any sort of distraction.

But there's a lesson in every failed experiment, and seeing the team struggling to keep players moving in the direction they want when they've come off the rails has been an ongoing problem. It's basically a sign they don't know what they're doing and they're trying to learn on the fly.
Both KPJ and Drummond were low risk gambles that didn't work out, but I'd like to think that the Cavs knew that when they picked KPJ and traded for Drummond.

They didn't extend Drummond last summer and dodged a huge bullet. That would suggest they learned from the Love extension. There haven't been any reports of locker room problems since they traded KPJ. That would suggest a decent culture might be taking hold.



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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#409 » by jbk1234 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:31 pm

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#410 » by JonFromVA » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:00 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Not everything is under the organization's control. The player has a say in how things work out. If you're constantly having to manage a player, that's not a good sign.

Kyrie is taking mini vacations in the middle of the season. I expect the Nets to keep it together to win a title, but after that, there's a decent chance that Harden and Durant decide the drama isn't worth it.


Technically speaking the team has to first commit to a player before anything the player's says or does means anything, and even after that both sides are bound by the contract, the CBA, and the league's rules. If the team decides not to use all the leverage they can bring to bear against a belligerent player, that's again their choice.

The Nets and Cavs are presumably happy with their choices. The Nets because Kyrie helped bring in Durant and Harden and helped make them a top team; and the Cavs ... well ... because they're not interested in letting Andre become any sort of distraction.

But there's a lesson in every failed experiment, and seeing the team struggling to keep players moving in the direction they want when they've come off the rails has been an ongoing problem. It's basically a sign they don't know what they're doing and they're trying to learn on the fly.
Both KPJ and Drummond were low risk gambles that didn't work out, but I'd like to think that the Cavs knew that when they picked KPJ and traded for Drummond.

They didn't extend Drummond last summer and dodged a huge bullet. That would suggest they learned from the Love extension. There haven't been any reports of locker room problems since they traded KPJ. That would suggest a decent culture might be taking hold.


It was well known Andre was out to keep the gravy train rolling ... our best case scenario was to let him become a free-agent and then see if we couldn't sign him after all the free-agent money ran out and his offers dwindled. At that point, our Bird rights might had helped us beat some teams who could only offer at most the MLE.

That we'd actually enter contract talks with him before we were sure he was actually good for our team is a red-flag. We also ran the risk of pissing him off if we made a low-ball offer.

What I'm getting at here is that it's one thing to be willing to take a risk, and something else to manage it.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#411 » by jbk1234 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:00 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Technically speaking the team has to first commit to a player before anything the player's says or does means anything, and even after that both sides are bound by the contract, the CBA, and the league's rules. If the team decides not to use all the leverage they can bring to bear against a belligerent player, that's again their choice.

The Nets and Cavs are presumably happy with their choices. The Nets because Kyrie helped bring in Durant and Harden and helped make them a top team; and the Cavs ... well ... because they're not interested in letting Andre become any sort of distraction.

But there's a lesson in every failed experiment, and seeing the team struggling to keep players moving in the direction they want when they've come off the rails has been an ongoing problem. It's basically a sign they don't know what they're doing and they're trying to learn on the fly.
Both KPJ and Drummond were low risk gambles that didn't work out, but I'd like to think that the Cavs knew that when they picked KPJ and traded for Drummond.

They didn't extend Drummond last summer and dodged a huge bullet. That would suggest they learned from the Love extension. There haven't been any reports of locker room problems since they traded KPJ. That would suggest a decent culture might be taking hold.


It was well known Andre was out to keep the gravy train rolling ... our best case scenario was to let him become a free-agent and then see if we couldn't sign him after all the free-agent money ran out and his offers dwindled. At that point, our Bird rights might had helped us beat some teams who could only offer at most the MLE.

That we'd actually enter contract talks with him before we were sure he was actually good for our team is a red-flag. We also ran the risk of pissing him off if we made a low-ball offer.

What I'm getting at here is that it's one thing to be willing to take a risk, and something else to manage it.
Yeah, I was sounding the alarm on even having those extension talks when they were happening so I hear you on that. It's obviously difficult to know who is actually making some of these calls, but hopefully this close call, in addition to that Love extension, will remind the decision makers that cap flexibility is really important. Opportunities that you don't necessarily anticipate will arise, and even players who add value on the court can quickly become untradable if overpaid.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#412 » by Stillwater » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:06 pm

If Dre actually thought and or worse still thinks he can get a huge paycheck at this point it is absolutely a blessing they were able to trade for JFro so they didnt have any pressure to overpay Dre this summer which they may very well have given they cannot seem to decide if they are tanking or just suck
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#413 » by JonFromVA » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:17 pm

Stillwater wrote:If Dre actually thought and or worse still thinks he can get a huge paycheck at this point it is absolutely a blessing they were able to trade for JFro so they didnt have any pressure to overpay Dre this summer which they may very well have given they cannot seem to decide if they are tanking or just suck


The only thing we lost was the ability to play them off each other. They'll need to think long and hard whether they have a limit on how high they'll go when it comes to matching an offer from another team for Allen.

I suppose the first question is how big of a contract is he eligible for? If it maxes out at say $24M, we may have no reason to blink if the bidding goes that high. I'm sure we'd prefer something around $18M, but I doubt we'd let him walk over that much of a difference.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#414 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:16 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:If Dre actually thought and or worse still thinks he can get a huge paycheck at this point it is absolutely a blessing they were able to trade for JFro so they didnt have any pressure to overpay Dre this summer which they may very well have given they cannot seem to decide if they are tanking or just suck


The only thing we lost was the ability to play them off each other. They'll need to think long and hard whether they have a limit on how high they'll go when it comes to matching an offer from another team for Allen.

I suppose the first question is how big of a contract is he eligible for? If it maxes out at say $24M, we may have no reason to blink if the bidding goes that high. I'm sure we'd prefer something around $18M, but I doubt we'd let him walk over that much of a difference.
I'm hoping Drummond signs with the Knicks and removes them as bidders.

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#415 » by jbk1234 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:18 pm

The NBA is broken

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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#416 » by Harper4Ferry? » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:50 pm

disgusting. should have let him rot on the bench if he was giving up that much less than Aldridge or Griffin. This means we'll never save anything on the inevitable Love buyout that's coming.

Also-that's why the information was so hard to find out about the buyout. The Cavs knew it was going to look super weaksauce and hid it for as long as possible.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#417 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:55 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:disgusting. should have let him rot on the bench if he was giving up that much less than Aldridge or Griffin. This means we'll never save anything on the inevitable Love buyout that's coming.

Also-that's why the information was so hard to find out about the buyout. The Cavs knew it was going to look super weaksauce and hid it for as long as possible.


I suspect they concluded that eliminating drama was more important that whatever they might have gained by dealing with Andre differently. We may have lost Andre a few months earlier than expected, but we gained Allen.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#418 » by Stillwater » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:03 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:disgusting. should have let him rot on the bench if he was giving up that much less than Aldridge or Griffin. This means we'll never save anything on the inevitable Love buyout that's coming.

Also-that's why the information was so hard to find out about the buyout. The Cavs knew it was going to look super weaksauce and hid it for as long as possible.


I suspect they concluded that eliminating drama was more important that whatever they might have gained by dealing with Andre differently. We may have lost Andre a few months earlier than expected, but we gained Allen.

And they must be committed to giving him a massive payday right? He better show more than he has or he isnt worth that much.
You need a rim protector and presence like JFro to win in the playoffs but you need a lot more than that too.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#419 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:26 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:disgusting. should have let him rot on the bench if he was giving up that much less than Aldridge or Griffin. This means we'll never save anything on the inevitable Love buyout that's coming.

Also-that's why the information was so hard to find out about the buyout. The Cavs knew it was going to look super weaksauce and hid it for as long as possible.


I suspect they concluded that eliminating drama was more important that whatever they might have gained by dealing with Andre differently. We may have lost Andre a few months earlier than expected, but we gained Allen.


And they must be committed to giving him a massive payday right? He better show more than he has or he isnt worth that much.
You need a rim protector and presence like JFro to win in the playoffs but you need a lot more than that too.


I wasn't sure what the number could be, but then did some searching ...

Bam Adebayo got a $163M/5yr max extension that will pay him $28M starting next season and escalates to $37M by the final season.

That's a lot higher than I expected, and I've got to imagine they would let Allen walk before investing that much, albeit if they're matching an RFA offer it will end up being shorter with lower raises.

Big test for Altman ahead of deciding what to do with Collin.

Not many 7ft'ers let alone 6ft'ers are worth that kind of money.
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Re: Cavs 2020-21 season 

Post#420 » by jbk1234 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:04 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:disgusting. should have let him rot on the bench if he was giving up that much less than Aldridge or Griffin. This means we'll never save anything on the inevitable Love buyout that's coming.

Also-that's why the information was so hard to find out about the buyout. The Cavs knew it was going to look super weaksauce and hid it for as long as possible.


The league fixes this or it doesn't get fixed. Drummond and Love are represented by the same agent (the irony is that for all the complaints about Klutch, the Cavs paid $60M to two guys who didn't even play half a season combined and it's a far worse situation than TT and JR). If there's any chance at a medical retirement for Love, there's no real alternative here. You have to lie back and think of England.

But even if Love wasn't a factor, there's always an element of extortion in situations like this because the agent has a client list that goes beyond the guy with whom you're presently negotiating. If the league doesn't fix this, it probably doesn't get fixed. Maybe at some point a mid-market team gets fed up enough to say no, and if you're going to tell your other clients to turn down the opportunity to make more money, or play in a better situation, then that's on you. But no team wants to jump in that volcano first.

The only silver lining is that they turned down the extension offer.

As far as the bolded, the only way I'd even consider a Love buyout is if he offered to give back the most money allowed under the CBA, and even then, I'd tell him to get on the court and play himself into game shape, or I'm calling the league doctor and asking for a medical retirement declaration.
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