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preseason opportunities

Moderator: jbk1234

of these pick ups fighting for spots who do look forward to seeing the most in preseason

Stevens
1
6%
Maker
6
38%
Matthews
1
6%
Dotson
0
No votes
Bolden
2
13%
Mooney
0
No votes
Randolph
0
No votes
only interested in Okoro Windler etc
3
19%
other aka current core players only
2
13%
wade and anyone else I didnt list
1
6%
 
Total votes: 16

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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#41 » by Stillwater » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:21 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
At his age, he's just going to play better vs some teams than others. Of course if he can lock in his 3pt shot in games, that alone will change things tremendously for him ... but even good shooters are streaky.

In other words ... bring on the Knicks.

you should be the gm of a tanking team lol with that kind of easy going attitude anyway.
I have no clue what to make of DG at this point in time but unless the man starts dropping dimes like Ja Morant or hitting step back bombs above 40% it is not a great resume if his turnover bug continues.
I guess what I am projecting is despite finally showing some of what made him an interesting recruit before college with his history of winning awards etc now showing the advantage with his ball handling and separation ability hell even his floater looks like $...I still dont see where in the hell this dynamic floor general is at that so many fans say they think he is.
I think he a higher % chance of being a score first rotation guard as he does running the offense of a good team.
I think DG is going to earn some time to prove himself off the bench and at this point any starting gig if he gets it is the org gifting it again.


Nah, I've just been watching the league for so many years and seen things playout so many different ways, I've learned drawing snap judgements is best left to the talking heads on TV who get paid to be wrong.

There's a natural progression to player development. You can hope it progresses quickly and linearly, but even that's not a given. Sometimes it's a step by step thing, and different aspects have to snap in to place before you see the player make overall progress.

Darius is not the "dynamic floor general" we'd like see to in game 2 of the pre-season .vs. the Pacers, but as long as he's showing improvement in some areas and not stagnating, I'm good. Waiting to see if players will develop is something you have to deal with when you draft 18 and 19 year olds, or you end up like the Clippers.

In the short term, Darius needs to eliminate the stupid passes and turnovers, and I fully expect him to do it. And if he's the player I think he is, at some point we do need to see that 3-ball start to drop and especially off the dribble; but I really don't mind him being conservative until he trusts it. Forcing up miss after miss is a good way to get frustrated and benched.

In the meantime, his ability to get in the paint is still a strength and his floater looks greatly improved. He's also using the backboard very well. His defense has improved, and as I noted last year, he makes a lot of good defensive decisions even if his body/length doesn't always let him make a stop.

Hopefully we get to see where Collin is at .vs. the Knicks. I still see no reason they can't compliment each other on offense, but we need to see the ball move. Alas, sometimes that's more about the offense stagnating and sometimes it's the defense doing something that's frustrating the offense. It's because of the later that we need to take care comparing performance .vs. the Pacer's starters .vs. their bench.

Yeah I just dont look at like that not for a prospect taken at 5th overall but thats water under the bridge...
However I thought the argument for drafting dg was he was the BPA but Its blatantly obvious he wasnt that guy that comes in and takes over the league and whatever made them think he was is hot garbage now that the man is healthy so if he doesnt break out this season as a dime dropping machine floor general or as a high level scorer then no matter how patient you or they are he aint who they thought he would be and they should stop expecting him to be that at any point and bring him off the damn bench.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#42 » by JonFromVA » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:00 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:you should be the gm of a tanking team lol with that kind of easy going attitude anyway.
I have no clue what to make of DG at this point in time but unless the man starts dropping dimes like Ja Morant or hitting step back bombs above 40% it is not a great resume if his turnover bug continues.
I guess what I am projecting is despite finally showing some of what made him an interesting recruit before college with his history of winning awards etc now showing the advantage with his ball handling and separation ability hell even his floater looks like $...I still dont see where in the hell this dynamic floor general is at that so many fans say they think he is.
I think he a higher % chance of being a score first rotation guard as he does running the offense of a good team.
I think DG is going to earn some time to prove himself off the bench and at this point any starting gig if he gets it is the org gifting it again.


Nah, I've just been watching the league for so many years and seen things playout so many different ways, I've learned drawing snap judgements is best left to the talking heads on TV who get paid to be wrong.

There's a natural progression to player development. You can hope it progresses quickly and linearly, but even that's not a given. Sometimes it's a step by step thing, and different aspects have to snap in to place before you see the player make overall progress.

Darius is not the "dynamic floor general" we'd like see to in game 2 of the pre-season .vs. the Pacers, but as long as he's showing improvement in some areas and not stagnating, I'm good. Waiting to see if players will develop is something you have to deal with when you draft 18 and 19 year olds, or you end up like the Clippers.

In the short term, Darius needs to eliminate the stupid passes and turnovers, and I fully expect him to do it. And if he's the player I think he is, at some point we do need to see that 3-ball start to drop and especially off the dribble; but I really don't mind him being conservative until he trusts it. Forcing up miss after miss is a good way to get frustrated and benched.

In the meantime, his ability to get in the paint is still a strength and his floater looks greatly improved. He's also using the backboard very well. His defense has improved, and as I noted last year, he makes a lot of good defensive decisions even if his body/length doesn't always let him make a stop.

Hopefully we get to see where Collin is at .vs. the Knicks. I still see no reason they can't compliment each other on offense, but we need to see the ball move. Alas, sometimes that's more about the offense stagnating and sometimes it's the defense doing something that's frustrating the offense. It's because of the later that we need to take care comparing performance .vs. the Pacer's starters .vs. their bench.

Yeah I just dont look at like that not for a prospect taken at 5th overall but thats water under the bridge...
However I thought the argument for drafting dg was he was the BPA but Its blatantly obvious he wasnt that guy that comes in and takes over the league and whatever made them think he was is hot garbage now that the man is healthy so if he doesnt break out this season as a dime dropping machine floor general or as a high level scorer then no matter how patient you or they are he aint who they thought he would be and they should stop expecting him to be that at any point and bring him off the damn bench.


BPA isn't someone who comes right in and takes over the league, it's a projection somewhere down the line when your team is ready to compete - or else you'd only draft a 19yr old if he was a generational talent.

Which isn't to say the Cavs are any good at drafting (just saw a chart on the general board that rated the org worst in the league by a wide margin).

I'm just willing to be patient and find out.

And no, it doesn't have to happen this year.

When Dame Lillard and Steph Curry were Darius's age ... they were still in College.

Besides, do we really have a choice beyond whether we waste our time watching and talking about these guys?
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#43 » by Steelo Green » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:34 pm

Raptors fan in peace.

Just a quick Q about Garland. Took him in fantasy as my last guy. Any ideas on what I can expect? He’s a flier but if you guys think he won’t get the burn or will be benched later I may just move on.

Hoping for something like 13-5 with a steal and a couple triples but honestly no clue.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#44 » by JonFromVA » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:49 pm

Steelo Green wrote:Raptors fan in peace.

Just a quick Q about Garland. Took him in fantasy as my last guy. Any ideas on what I can expect? He’s a flier but if you guys think he won’t get the burn or will be benched later I may just move on.

Hoping for something like 13-5 with a steal and a couple triples but honestly no clue.


Kind of what we're all waiting to see, but your projection sounds obtainable regardless of whether he ends up starting the whole season or is moved to the bench to break up the pairing with Sexton.

I'm personally expecting more scoring from him than 13ppg. His floater is looking much improved and even though his shooting has been missing he's already averaged way above that in limited minutes against Indiana.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#45 » by Stillwater » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:51 pm

Steelo Green wrote:Raptors fan in peace.

Just a quick Q about Garland. Took him in fantasy as my last guy. Any ideas on what I can expect? He’s a flier but if you guys think he won’t get the burn or will be benched later I may just move on.

Hoping for something like 13-5 with a steal and a couple triples but honestly no clue.

if he doesn't start he wont average 5 dimes and if he does start he wont be for long if he doesn't average 5 dimes imo.
Unless of course he comes out firing Steph Bombs from all over and dominating.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#46 » by Stillwater » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:27 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Nah, I've just been watching the league for so many years and seen things playout so many different ways, I've learned drawing snap judgements is best left to the talking heads on TV who get paid to be wrong.

There's a natural progression to player development. You can hope it progresses quickly and linearly, but even that's not a given. Sometimes it's a step by step thing, and different aspects have to snap in to place before you see the player make overall progress.

Darius is not the "dynamic floor general" we'd like see to in game 2 of the pre-season .vs. the Pacers, but as long as he's showing improvement in some areas and not stagnating, I'm good. Waiting to see if players will develop is something you have to deal with when you draft 18 and 19 year olds, or you end up like the Clippers.

In the short term, Darius needs to eliminate the stupid passes and turnovers, and I fully expect him to do it. And if he's the player I think he is, at some point we do need to see that 3-ball start to drop and especially off the dribble; but I really don't mind him being conservative until he trusts it. Forcing up miss after miss is a good way to get frustrated and benched.

In the meantime, his ability to get in the paint is still a strength and his floater looks greatly improved. He's also using the backboard very well. His defense has improved, and as I noted last year, he makes a lot of good defensive decisions even if his body/length doesn't always let him make a stop.

Hopefully we get to see where Collin is at .vs. the Knicks. I still see no reason they can't compliment each other on offense, but we need to see the ball move. Alas, sometimes that's more about the offense stagnating and sometimes it's the defense doing something that's frustrating the offense. It's because of the later that we need to take care comparing performance .vs. the Pacer's starters .vs. their bench.

Yeah I just dont look at like that not for a prospect taken at 5th overall but thats water under the bridge...
However I thought the argument for drafting dg was he was the BPA but Its blatantly obvious he wasnt that guy that comes in and takes over the league and whatever made them think he was is hot garbage now that the man is healthy so if he doesnt break out this season as a dime dropping machine floor general or as a high level scorer then no matter how patient you or they are he aint who they thought he would be and they should stop expecting him to be that at any point and bring him off the damn bench.


BPA isn't someone who comes right in and takes over the league, it's a projection somewhere down the line when your team is ready to compete - or else you'd only draft a 19yr old if he was a generational talent.

Which isn't to say the Cavs are any good at drafting (just saw a chart on the general board that rated the org worst in the league by a wide margin).

I'm just willing to be patient and find out.

And no, it doesn't have to happen this year.

When Dame Lillard and Steph Curry were Darius's age ... they were still in College.

Besides, do we really have a choice beyond whether we waste our time watching and talking about these guys?

I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#47 » by jbk1234 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:54 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Yeah I just dont look at like that not for a prospect taken at 5th overall but thats water under the bridge...
However I thought the argument for drafting dg was he was the BPA but Its blatantly obvious he wasnt that guy that comes in and takes over the league and whatever made them think he was is hot garbage now that the man is healthy so if he doesnt break out this season as a dime dropping machine floor general or as a high level scorer then no matter how patient you or they are he aint who they thought he would be and they should stop expecting him to be that at any point and bring him off the damn bench.


BPA isn't someone who comes right in and takes over the league, it's a projection somewhere down the line when your team is ready to compete - or else you'd only draft a 19yr old if he was a generational talent.

Which isn't to say the Cavs are any good at drafting (just saw a chart on the general board that rated the org worst in the league by a wide margin).

I'm just willing to be patient and find out.

And no, it doesn't have to happen this year.

When Dame Lillard and Steph Curry were Darius's age ... they were still in College.

Besides, do we really have a choice beyond whether we waste our time watching and talking about these guys?

I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never
That's great and all but Sexton sucked pretty hard his first year and a half in the league and you were thrilled with him so maybe you're not all that objective.

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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#48 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:58 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
BPA isn't someone who comes right in and takes over the league, it's a projection somewhere down the line when your team is ready to compete - or else you'd only draft a 19yr old if he was a generational talent.

Which isn't to say the Cavs are any good at drafting (just saw a chart on the general board that rated the org worst in the league by a wide margin).

I'm just willing to be patient and find out.

And no, it doesn't have to happen this year.

When Dame Lillard and Steph Curry were Darius's age ... they were still in College.

Besides, do we really have a choice beyond whether we waste our time watching and talking about these guys?

I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never
That's great and all but Sexton sucked pretty hard his first year and a half in the league and you were thrilled with him so maybe you're not all that objective.

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no argument there , But I will explain myself better :
I value speed and relentless motor for smallish guards as the keys to success at the nba level ( sans having some ridiculous ability to shoot from anywhere like Curry or Kyrie) and since Sexton has that motor speed aspect I buy that his ceiling is likely higher than dg.
I mean if you took DG's bbiq from a court vision standpoint and put in Sextons head DG is immediately expendable on the same roster same as if you could take Sextons motor and speed and gift it to DG then Sexton is expendable without the iq but the truth is only one can attain that which he lacks here and thats Sexton getting smarter with the ball which he is already showing over the course of two seasons esp at the last few weeks before covid hit under the current coach. I dont know how much of a factor it is since I was never that smart but Sexton was a straight A student in HS apparently so its not like he cant learn this **** hes got a QB egg on him
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#49 » by jbk1234 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:31 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never
That's great and all but Sexton sucked pretty hard his first year and a half in the league and you were thrilled with him so maybe you're not all that objective.

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no argument there , But I will explain myself better :
I value speed and relentless motor for smallish guards as the keys to success at the nba level ( sans having some ridiculous ability to shoot from anywhere like Curry or Kyrie) and since Sexton has that motor speed aspect I buy that his ceiling is likely higher than dg.
I mean if you took DG's bbiq from a court vision standpoint and put in Sextons head DG is immediately expendable on the same roster same as if you could take Sextons motor and speed and gift it to DG then Sexton is expendable without the iq but the truth is only one can attain that which he lacks here and thats Sexton getting smarter with the ball which he is already showing over the course of two seasons esp at the last few weeks before covid hit under the current coach. I dont know how much of a factor it is since I was never that smart but Sexton was a straight A student in HS apparently so its not like he cant learn this **** hes got a QB egg on him
I'm simply not convinced that Sexton will be the better player at this juncture. If you project growth out indefinitely, then they're all all stars. Sexton's speed is a double-edged sword. He doesn't always see the floor well and he often commits without a plan B.

Moreover, I'm not sure the team is ever going to function efficiently with him as the primary ball handler in the starting unit. Not without him actually slowing down at times and involving his teammates.

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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#50 » by JonFromVA » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:51 am

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Yeah I just dont look at like that not for a prospect taken at 5th overall but thats water under the bridge...
However I thought the argument for drafting dg was he was the BPA but Its blatantly obvious he wasnt that guy that comes in and takes over the league and whatever made them think he was is hot garbage now that the man is healthy so if he doesnt break out this season as a dime dropping machine floor general or as a high level scorer then no matter how patient you or they are he aint who they thought he would be and they should stop expecting him to be that at any point and bring him off the damn bench.


BPA isn't someone who comes right in and takes over the league, it's a projection somewhere down the line when your team is ready to compete - or else you'd only draft a 19yr old if he was a generational talent.

Which isn't to say the Cavs are any good at drafting (just saw a chart on the general board that rated the org worst in the league by a wide margin).

I'm just willing to be patient and find out.

And no, it doesn't have to happen this year.

When Dame Lillard and Steph Curry were Darius's age ... they were still in College.

Besides, do we really have a choice beyond whether we waste our time watching and talking about these guys?

I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never


That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#51 » by LivingLegend » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:01 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
BPA isn't someone who comes right in and takes over the league, it's a projection somewhere down the line when your team is ready to compete - or else you'd only draft a 19yr old if he was a generational talent.

Which isn't to say the Cavs are any good at drafting (just saw a chart on the general board that rated the org worst in the league by a wide margin).

I'm just willing to be patient and find out.

And no, it doesn't have to happen this year.

When Dame Lillard and Steph Curry were Darius's age ... they were still in College.

Besides, do we really have a choice beyond whether we waste our time watching and talking about these guys?

I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never


That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.


I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#52 » by JonFromVA » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:23 am

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never


That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.


I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.


Sure, and even Kyrie who broke in to the league putting up amazing numbers as rookie, has struggled to find groups he can actually make better when he's part of them. Heck, just last season the Nets were no better with Irving on the floor then off. Dinwiddie was significantly better with Harris-LeVert-Prince-Allen than Irving.

So, the true test is whether we can figure out a way to win with these guys - which is going to be tricky given that at best our roster consists of guys who can win when used in the right situation, but easily flip negative in less optimal situations. Okoro if all goes to plan may actually be our first player (other than perhaps Nance Jr) we can confidently say will make pretty much any group better when he's part of it because of his defense and play-style.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#53 » by LivingLegend » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:27 am

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.


I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.


Sure, and even Kyrie who broke in to the league putting up amazing numbers as rookie, has struggled to find groups he can actually make better when he's part of them. Heck, just last season the Nets were no better with Irving on the floor then off. Dinwiddie was significantly better with Harris-LeVert-Prince-Allen than Irving.

So, the true test is whether we can figure out a way to win with these guys - which is going to be tricky given that at best our roster consists of guys who can win when used in the right situation, but easily flip negative in less optimal situations. Okoro if all goes to plan may actually be our first player (other than perhaps Nance Jr) we can confidently say will make pretty much any group better when he's part of it because of his defense and play-style.


I think garlands best path to becoming great for the Cavs is becoming the teams best playmaker. He doesn't need to score 20+. If he can work on playmaking for others and getting Sexton/KPJ/Love/Drummond their shots it would be invaluable
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#54 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:36 am

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think the point I have made a thousand times over is that I dont see star potential with DG not now and likely not ever so I am not sold it makes any sense to slow the development of other players by prioritizing him in the sl and maybe the difference between me and others is if you are going to take a prospect in the top 5 that doesnt have that potential they better have a proven transferable skillset that shows up day 1 . case in point Okoro whos defense is already transfering quite well the nice thing about him is he does have upside as well.
I was very content with grabbibg KPJ who I honestly believe has all nba potential even now after all the off court stuff and I think if he can get his **** together will be one of the top 3 guys taken in the 19 draft when its all over.
DG will litterally have to be steph 2.0 in a couple of seasons to make me a believer this org made wouldnt have been better off taking KPJ at 5th overall and Bol at 30.
He has way to many limitations physically to come into the league at 5th overall and be this behind the 8 ball is all I am saying and sure there is always a chance he breaks out this season and I sure hope he does, but if not this year I say it will be never


That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.


I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.

yeah I dont see that level of clutch factor yet not to say it wont ever happen.
Maybe if you try to look at it from the perspective of this: forget when they were picked so as to lower your expectations then forget what the expectations were by scouting reports pre draft , and forget who they play for now.
Then ask yourself what you think they are as a player going forward if he wasn't a Cav wasn't taken in the lottery or maybe go to the extent of saying he wasn't even in the nba yet and then what do you think of him now with those truth s not there...
I think when you forget he was the 5th pick forget he never played in college to speak of but has nba bloodlines that pumped up his stock along with the injury excuses and forget he wears the wine and gold so you dont have any vested interest and just simply look at the man for what he brings to the table & imo the outlook is far less rosey
I see a back up pg with a dynamic handle and no clutch shooting ability to take advantage of it
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#55 » by jbk1234 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:19 am

Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.


I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.

yeah I dont see that level of clutch factor yet not to say it wont ever happen.
Maybe if you try to look at it from the perspective of this: forget when they were picked so as to lower your expectations then forget what the expectations were by scouting reports pre draft , and forget who they play for now.
Then ask yourself what you think they are as a player going forward if he wasn't a Cav wasn't taken in the lottery or maybe go to the extent of saying he wasn't even in the nba yet and then what do you think of him now with those truth s not there...
I think when you forget he was the 5th pick forget he never played in college to speak of but has nba bloodlines that pumped up his stock along with the injury excuses and forget he wears the wine and gold so you dont have any vested interest and just simply look at the man for what he brings to the table & imo the outlook is far less rosey
I see a back up pg with a dynamic handle and no clutch shooting ability to take advantage of it
Then he looks like a 20 year old who can play PG in the NBA, at the very least as a backup. But no F.O. is going to decide that's all he is at 20. He'd be a junior in college right now.

I don't care if he starts. Bringing him off the bench is fine if you want him to develop him that way. I don't care if Sexton starts either though. I'd trade both of them and an unprotected 1st for Morant tomorrow.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#56 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:42 pm

^Ja is a mvp candidate if his game continues to rise so yeah lol
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#57 » by jbk1234 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:51 pm

Stillwater wrote:^Ja is a mvp candidate if his game continues to rise so yeah lol


Let me put it this way, assuming that KPJ can sort out his off-the-court issues, I suspect that by the end of the season the Sexton v. Garland debate is a debate over who is the 3rd versus 4th best prospect on the Cavs roster. I'm fine starting Sexton and sending Garland to the bench. I'm fine starting Garland and sending Sexton to the bench. Just don't start them together and try to play them alongside prospects who compliment their skill sets and vice versa.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#58 » by JonFromVA » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:07 pm

Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's kind of the point .. they were shooting for Steph 2.0 (or Dame 2.0) when they drafted Garland, but those guys got a headstart on their development "being the man" in the NCAA whereas Garland had 5 games and 2/3rds of a dysfunctional season most of it spent trying to get in to NBA shape.

As far as skills, he can get where he needs to get on the floor easy enough. His shooting needs to come through, and he needs to learn how to run a team which is something that can be constantly improved.

Anyway, in this age of shooting, there are plenty of outcomes where DG can be valuable short of superstar-level.

I get where you're coming from better, but that doesn't change the fact that raw/young and especially PG prospects need time and development. Goes for all of 'em. Collin needs to grow too. He needs to learn winning habits.


I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.

yeah I dont see that level of clutch factor yet not to say it wont ever happen.
Maybe if you try to look at it from the perspective of this: forget when they were picked so as to lower your expectations then forget what the expectations were by scouting reports pre draft , and forget who they play for now.
Then ask yourself what you think they are as a player going forward if he wasn't a Cav wasn't taken in the lottery or maybe go to the extent of saying he wasn't even in the nba yet and then what do you think of him now with those truth s not there...
I think when you forget he was the 5th pick forget he never played in college to speak of but has nba bloodlines that pumped up his stock along with the injury excuses and forget he wears the wine and gold so you dont have any vested interest and just simply look at the man for what he brings to the table & imo the outlook is far less rosey
I see a back up pg with a dynamic handle and no clutch shooting ability to take advantage of it


Our young players are Cavs, so, I'm definitely going to look at it with an optimistic outlook. If I felt these guys were doomed, I wouldn't be wasting my time watching the games looking for signs that they might become what I (and the organization) hopes they may become.

On the flip side, I don't care about box score stats, I care about players who can contribute to winning and make their teammates better, fill a role, space the floor, or play some D, etc, etc; so until a player reaches that level they are all just works in progress.

Just last season, Collin Sexton and Trae Young were considered the worst players in the league according to APM-type stats. What exactly do we lose by being patient as fans? What choice do we have? Want to boo these kids out of town? We can't even do that (this season).

btw, Darius has shown up sometimes in clutch situations last season, and his eFG% in the clutch isn't very good, but it's significantly higher than Collin's for instance. Getting Kevin a jumper looks to be our best "clutch play" and that means our guards should probably pass more and shoot less in those situations.
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#59 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^Ja is a mvp candidate if his game continues to rise so yeah lol


Let me put it this way, assuming that KPJ can sort out his off-the-court issues, I suspect that by the end of the season the Sexton v. Garland debate is a debate over who is the 3rd versus 4th best prospect on the Cavs roster. I'm fine starting Sexton and sending Garland to the bench. I'm fine starting Garland and sending Sexton to the bench. Just don't start them together and try to play them alongside prospects who compliment their skill sets and vice versa.

yeah the small back court will obviously be only as good as my turn your turn which is not a winning formula at least not usually.
There is a lot of iso dominant flashes in KPJ's game and so I feel he really could be the first option on this roster
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Re: preseason opportunities 

Post#60 » by Stillwater » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:09 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I don't think they have to turn into Superstars to become good players. I think DG can turn into somebody with a Kemba Walker-like game and impact. Kind of like a knock off Kyrie skillet.

yeah I dont see that level of clutch factor yet not to say it wont ever happen.
Maybe if you try to look at it from the perspective of this: forget when they were picked so as to lower your expectations then forget what the expectations were by scouting reports pre draft , and forget who they play for now.
Then ask yourself what you think they are as a player going forward if he wasn't a Cav wasn't taken in the lottery or maybe go to the extent of saying he wasn't even in the nba yet and then what do you think of him now with those truth s not there...
I think when you forget he was the 5th pick forget he never played in college to speak of but has nba bloodlines that pumped up his stock along with the injury excuses and forget he wears the wine and gold so you dont have any vested interest and just simply look at the man for what he brings to the table & imo the outlook is far less rosey
I see a back up pg with a dynamic handle and no clutch shooting ability to take advantage of it


Our young players are Cavs, so, I'm definitely going to look at it with an optimistic outlook. If I felt these guys were doomed, I wouldn't be wasting my time watching the games looking for signs that they might become what I (and the organization) hopes they may become.

On the flip side, I don't care about box score stats, I care about players who can contribute to winning and make their teammates better, fill a role, space the floor, or play some D, etc, etc; so until a player reaches that level they are all just works in progress.

Just last season, Collin Sexton and Trae Young were considered the worst players in the league according to APM-type stats. What exactly do we lose by being patient as fans? What choice do we have? Want to boo these kids out of town? We can't even do that (this season).

btw, Darius has shown up sometimes in clutch situations last season, and his eFG% in the clutch isn't very good, but it's significantly higher than Collin's for instance. Getting Kevin a jumper looks to be our best "clutch play" and that means our guards should probably pass more and shoot less in those situations.

I am just saying if you take your desire for DG or anyone else to be a good pro out of the equation it makes it much easier to see his skillset with a clear view of the actual ceiling that might be attained.I think his ceiling is attainable if his shots start dropping at a high % or he starts dropping dimes at a ridiculous rate but if not now then when? That should happen now not later otherwise his window for being a starter closes quick given the other options already here.
I want to see him coming off the bench in a back up for Sexton role and I want to see him mostly playing with Windler Nance Cedi and Javalle with Exum getting minutes next to him as well as Dotson and maybe Maker breaking into that line up per match ups.
I really want to see a starting line up of Sexton KPJ Okoro Love and Dre and the 6th man into the sl for Okoro is Cedi or visa versa with Windler or Nance getting some steady run against starters too.
If the org pressures JBB though I dont see that happening necessarily and I really think it will be a lot like last season with dg sexton okoro love dre sl to start the season with Cedi Windler and Nance as the key rotation with KPJ a mystery and DG is going to have to step it up really fast in that scenario or hes going to get kicked to the curb
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