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Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:yeah I dont see that level of clutch factor yet not to say it wont ever happen.
Maybe if you try to look at it from the perspective of this: forget when they were picked so as to lower your expectations then forget what the expectations were by scouting reports pre draft , and forget who they play for now.
Then ask yourself what you think they are as a player going forward if he wasn't a Cav wasn't taken in the lottery or maybe go to the extent of saying he wasn't even in the nba yet and then what do you think of him now with those truth s not there...
I think when you forget he was the 5th pick forget he never played in college to speak of but has nba bloodlines that pumped up his stock along with the injury excuses and forget he wears the wine and gold so you dont have any vested interest and just simply look at the man for what he brings to the table & imo the outlook is far less rosey
I see a back up pg with a dynamic handle and no clutch shooting ability to take advantage of it

Our young players are Cavs, so, I'm definitely going to look at it with an optimistic outlook. If I felt these guys were doomed, I wouldn't be wasting my time watching the games looking for signs that they might become what I (and the organization) hopes they may become.

On the flip side, I don't care about box score stats, I care about players who can contribute to winning and make their teammates better, fill a role, space the floor, or play some D, etc, etc; so until a player reaches that level they are all just works in progress.

Just last season, Collin Sexton and Trae Young were considered the worst players in the league according to APM-type stats. What exactly do we lose by being patient as fans? What choice do we have? Want to boo these kids out of town? We can't even do that (this season).

btw, Darius has shown up sometimes in clutch situations last season, and his eFG% in the clutch isn't very good, but it's significantly higher than Collin's for instance. Getting Kevin a jumper looks to be our best "clutch play" and that means our guards should probably pass more and shoot less in those situations.

I am just saying if you take your desire for DG or anyone else to be a good pro out of the equation it makes it much easier to see his skillset with a clear view of the actual ceiling that might be attained.I think his ceiling is attainable if his shots start dropping at a high % or he starts dropping dimes at a ridiculous rate but if not now then when? That should happen now not later otherwise his window for being a starter closes quick given the other options already here.
I want to see him coming off the bench in a back up for Sexton role and I want to see him mostly playing with Windler Nance Cedi and Javalle with Exum getting minutes next to him as well as Dotson and maybe Maker breaking into that line up per match ups.
I really want to see a starting line up of Sexton KPJ Okoro Love and Dre and the 6th man into the sl for Okoro is Cedi or visa versa with Windler or Nance getting some steady run against starters too.
If the org pressures JBB though I dont see that happening necessarily and I really think it will be a lot like last season with dg sexton okoro love dre sl to start the season with Cedi Windler and Nance as the key rotation with KPJ a mystery and DG is going to have to step it up really fast in that scenario or hes going to get kicked to the curb

That's the thing ... Garland's skillset and/or the lack of it on the roster is important for the starting unit. We need someone in there to initiate plays. You may not like watching Darius learn on the job, but the team has a need and an investment in him that makes it in their interest.

They are of course free to change their mind when they see something that changes their mind ... but inserting KPJ in to the starting lineup at this point in time appears to be a non-starter for multiple reasons. Yes, they could insert Exum. Are they supposed to do that based on a couple of nice performances .vs. the Pacer's back bench?

So, let it play out and it will eventually get sorted out, just probably not on your schedule or jbk1234's. I just hope you guys agree there should be some sort of method to the team's madness ... some underlying goal whether that's player development, or simply giving a lineup and potential alternatives a fair shake before promoting or demoting someone.

Garland/Sexton are our incumbent starting back-court and all signs are that they will continue to be until we see something is better. Makes perfect sense to me.

And everything I've said applies to our SF battle as well. While Isaac has looked very good in his two games, so has Cedi in his one and that was against starters. So, if JB is trying to be fair, Cedi should still be our starting SF at this point.

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Our young players are Cavs, so, I'm definitely going to look at it with an optimistic outlook. If I felt these guys were doomed, I wouldn't be wasting my time watching the games looking for signs that they might become what I (and the organization) hopes they may become.

On the flip side, I don't care about box score stats, I care about players who can contribute to winning and make their teammates better, fill a role, space the floor, or play some D, etc, etc; so until a player reaches that level they are all just works in progress.

Just last season, Collin Sexton and Trae Young were considered the worst players in the league according to APM-type stats. What exactly do we lose by being patient as fans? What choice do we have? Want to boo these kids out of town? We can't even do that (this season).

btw, Darius has shown up sometimes in clutch situations last season, and his eFG% in the clutch isn't very good, but it's significantly higher than Collin's for instance. Getting Kevin a jumper looks to be our best "clutch play" and that means our guards should probably pass more and shoot less in those situations.

I am just saying if you take your desire for DG or anyone else to be a good pro out of the equation it makes it much easier to see his skillset with a clear view of the actual ceiling that might be attained.I think his ceiling is attainable if his shots start dropping at a high % or he starts dropping dimes at a ridiculous rate but if not now then when? That should happen now not later otherwise his window for being a starter closes quick given the other options already here.
I want to see him coming off the bench in a back up for Sexton role and I want to see him mostly playing with Windler Nance Cedi and Javalle with Exum getting minutes next to him as well as Dotson and maybe Maker breaking into that line up per match ups.
I really want to see a starting line up of Sexton KPJ Okoro Love and Dre and the 6th man into the sl for Okoro is Cedi or visa versa with Windler or Nance getting some steady run against starters too.
If the org pressures JBB though I dont see that happening necessarily and I really think it will be a lot like last season with dg sexton okoro love dre sl to start the season with Cedi Windler and Nance as the key rotation with KPJ a mystery and DG is going to have to step it up really fast in that scenario or hes going to get kicked to the curb

That's the thing ... Garland's skillset and/or the lack of it on the roster is important for the starting unit. We need someone in there to initiate plays. You may not like watching Darius learn on the job, but the team has a need and an investment in him that makes it in their interest.

They are of course free to change their mind when they see something that changes their mind ... but inserting KPJ in to the starting lineup at this point in time appears to be a non-starter for multiple reasons. Yes, they could insert Exum. Are they supposed to do that based on a couple of nice performances .vs. the Pacer's back bench?

So, let it play out and it will eventually get sorted out, just probably not on your schedule or jbk1234's. I just hope you guys agree there should be some sort of method to the team's madness ... some underlying goal whether that's player development, or simply giving a lineup and potential alternatives a fair shake before promoting or demoting someone.

Garland/Sexton are our incumbent starting back-court and all signs are that they will continue to be until we see something is better. Makes perfect sense to me.

And everything I've said applies to our SF battle as well. While Isaac has looked very good in his two games, so has Cedi in his one and that was against starters. So, if JB is trying to be fair, Cedi should still be our starting SF at this point.

But thats just it too... Garland is not that good at initiating anything right now certainly no better at executing it than Sexton is at seeing it etc.
I really think this hang up on developing DG in the sl is a mistake for the development of Sexton and KPJ maybe even DG himself for that matter. I do understand the logic if it is on the front of their playbook to use him in that role while Love and Dre are still around and maybe they feel Sexton would be best as the 6th man while that happens etc but trying to haver a set in stone rotation on a team full of unfinished products is a bad recipe. Personally I think Okoro can outplay Cedi pretty easily but I like the competition and would really be excited for this org if they employee the same principal for Sexton vs Garland

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:I am just saying if you take your desire for DG or anyone else to be a good pro out of the equation it makes it much easier to see his skillset with a clear view of the actual ceiling that might be attained.I think his ceiling is attainable if his shots start dropping at a high % or he starts dropping dimes at a ridiculous rate but if not now then when? That should happen now not later otherwise his window for being a starter closes quick given the other options already here.
I want to see him coming off the bench in a back up for Sexton role and I want to see him mostly playing with Windler Nance Cedi and Javalle with Exum getting minutes next to him as well as Dotson and maybe Maker breaking into that line up per match ups.
I really want to see a starting line up of Sexton KPJ Okoro Love and Dre and the 6th man into the sl for Okoro is Cedi or visa versa with Windler or Nance getting some steady run against starters too.
If the org pressures JBB though I dont see that happening necessarily and I really think it will be a lot like last season with dg sexton okoro love dre sl to start the season with Cedi Windler and Nance as the key rotation with KPJ a mystery and DG is going to have to step it up really fast in that scenario or hes going to get kicked to the curb

That's the thing ... Garland's skillset and/or the lack of it on the roster is important for the starting unit. We need someone in there to initiate plays. You may not like watching Darius learn on the job, but the team has a need and an investment in him that makes it in their interest.

They are of course free to change their mind when they see something that changes their mind ... but inserting KPJ in to the starting lineup at this point in time appears to be a non-starter for multiple reasons. Yes, they could insert Exum. Are they supposed to do that based on a couple of nice performances .vs. the Pacer's back bench?

So, let it play out and it will eventually get sorted out, just probably not on your schedule or jbk1234's. I just hope you guys agree there should be some sort of method to the team's madness ... some underlying goal whether that's player development, or simply giving a lineup and potential alternatives a fair shake before promoting or demoting someone.

Garland/Sexton are our incumbent starting back-court and all signs are that they will continue to be until we see something is better. Makes perfect sense to me.

And everything I've said applies to our SF battle as well. While Isaac has looked very good in his two games, so has Cedi in his one and that was against starters. So, if JB is trying to be fair, Cedi should still be our starting SF at this point.

But thats just it too... Garland is not that good at initiating anything right now certainly no better at executing it than Sexton is at seeing it etc.
I really think this hang up on developing DG in the sl is a mistake for the development of Sexton and KPJ maybe even DG himself for that matter. I do understand the logic if it is on the front of their playbook to use him in that role while Love and Dre are still around and maybe they feel Sexton would be best as the 6th man while that happens etc but trying to haver a set in stone rotation on a team full of unfinished products is a bad recipe. Personally I think Okoro can outplay Cedi pretty easily but I like the competition and would really be excited for this org if they employee the same principal for Sexton vs Garland

Nobody has said the rotation is set in stone, but I would certainly understand if the Cavs choose not to push a player who isn't in the team's long-term interest ahead of a young player in the rotation unless they felt it was best for the young player - and crap like giving a veteran some run to try to get his trade value up is just a reality of the league.

I mean, if your reads are correct, I do believe you will get what you want ... just not perhaps when you want.

*shrugs*

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
That's the thing ... Garland's skillset and/or the lack of it on the roster is important for the starting unit. We need someone in there to initiate plays. You may not like watching Darius learn on the job, but the team has a need and an investment in him that makes it in their interest.

They are of course free to change their mind when they see something that changes their mind ... but inserting KPJ in to the starting lineup at this point in time appears to be a non-starter for multiple reasons. Yes, they could insert Exum. Are they supposed to do that based on a couple of nice performances .vs. the Pacer's back bench?

So, let it play out and it will eventually get sorted out, just probably not on your schedule or jbk1234's. I just hope you guys agree there should be some sort of method to the team's madness ... some underlying goal whether that's player development, or simply giving a lineup and potential alternatives a fair shake before promoting or demoting someone.

Garland/Sexton are our incumbent starting back-court and all signs are that they will continue to be until we see something is better. Makes perfect sense to me.

And everything I've said applies to our SF battle as well. While Isaac has looked very good in his two games, so has Cedi in his one and that was against starters. So, if JB is trying to be fair, Cedi should still be our starting SF at this point.

But thats just it too... Garland is not that good at initiating anything right now certainly no better at executing it than Sexton is at seeing it etc.
I really think this hang up on developing DG in the sl is a mistake for the development of Sexton and KPJ maybe even DG himself for that matter. I do understand the logic if it is on the front of their playbook to use him in that role while Love and Dre are still around and maybe they feel Sexton would be best as the 6th man while that happens etc but trying to haver a set in stone rotation on a team full of unfinished products is a bad recipe. Personally I think Okoro can outplay Cedi pretty easily but I like the competition and would really be excited for this org if they employee the same principal for Sexton vs Garland

Nobody has said the rotation is set in stone, but I would certainly understand if the Cavs choose not to push a player who isn't in the team's long-term interest ahead of a young player in the rotation unless they felt it was best for the young player - and crap like giving a veteran some run to try to get his trade value up is just a reality of the league.

I mean, if your reads are correct, I do believe you will get what you want ... just not perhaps when you want.

*shrugs*

If DG can keep a positive attitude if they do in fact decide he is best coming off the bench accepting his place is not starter level yet and use it as fuel to improve instead of constantly struggling against starters all season like yr 1 he might be worth developing.
I mean I think you have to play Sexton starter minutes if not a starter at this point if you want to start winning just for his offense and maybe that works to his advantage being able to feast on 2nd units but it also might prove detrimental to the starting line up to not have his scoring against better defenders if DG isnt producing at a higher level at the same position.
We shall see what they decide to do, I am not worried just yet, but I have seen this org over commit to their lottery picks until LBJ walked through the door and I think its not insane to think they still want a 2 combo guard starting line up esp if they think the threat of both is more useful than the upgrade defensively of a lesser impactful 2 guard and esp if they think Okoro at the 3 with them covers a lot of the weakness' with him able to defend 1-4 and every teams best player.

half the team is out tonight... well its time for the g leaguers to get some real run

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:But thats just it too... Garland is not that good at initiating anything right now certainly no better at executing it than Sexton is at seeing it etc.
I really think this hang up on developing DG in the sl is a mistake for the development of Sexton and KPJ maybe even DG himself for that matter. I do understand the logic if it is on the front of their playbook to use him in that role while Love and Dre are still around and maybe they feel Sexton would be best as the 6th man while that happens etc but trying to haver a set in stone rotation on a team full of unfinished products is a bad recipe. Personally I think Okoro can outplay Cedi pretty easily but I like the competition and would really be excited for this org if they employee the same principal for Sexton vs Garland

Nobody has said the rotation is set in stone, but I would certainly understand if the Cavs choose not to push a player who isn't in the team's long-term interest ahead of a young player in the rotation unless they felt it was best for the young player - and crap like giving a veteran some run to try to get his trade value up is just a reality of the league.

I mean, if your reads are correct, I do believe you will get what you want ... just not perhaps when you want.

*shrugs*

If DG can keep a positive attitude if they do in fact decide he is best coming off the bench accepting his place is not starter level yet and use it as fuel to improve instead of constantly struggling against starters all season like yr 1 he might be worth developing.
I mean I think you have to play Sexton starter minutes if not a starter at this point if you want to start winning just for his offense and maybe that works to his advantage being able to feast on 2nd units but it also might prove detrimental to the starting line up to not have his scoring against better defenders if DG isnt producing at a higher level at the same position.
We shall see what they decide to do, I am not worried just yet, but I have seen this org over commit to their lottery picks until LBJ walked through the door and I think its not insane to think they still want a 2 combo guard starting line up esp if they think the threat of both is more useful than the upgrade defensively of a lesser impactful 2 guard and esp if they think Okoro at the 3 with them covers a lot of the weakness' with him able to defend 1-4 and every teams best player.

Sexton's scoring can't be turned in to wins unless he becomes more aware of his teammates, and either his defense improves or our influx of 7-footers gives us something TT could not.

We just need to see what will work, and hopefully they're willing to experiment.

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Nobody has said the rotation is set in stone, but I would certainly understand if the Cavs choose not to push a player who isn't in the team's long-term interest ahead of a young player in the rotation unless they felt it was best for the young player - and crap like giving a veteran some run to try to get his trade value up is just a reality of the league.

I mean, if your reads are correct, I do believe you will get what you want ... just not perhaps when you want.

*shrugs*

If DG can keep a positive attitude if they do in fact decide he is best coming off the bench accepting his place is not starter level yet and use it as fuel to improve instead of constantly struggling against starters all season like yr 1 he might be worth developing.
I mean I think you have to play Sexton starter minutes if not a starter at this point if you want to start winning just for his offense and maybe that works to his advantage being able to feast on 2nd units but it also might prove detrimental to the starting line up to not have his scoring against better defenders if DG isnt producing at a higher level at the same position.
We shall see what they decide to do, I am not worried just yet, but I have seen this org over commit to their lottery picks until LBJ walked through the door and I think its not insane to think they still want a 2 combo guard starting line up esp if they think the threat of both is more useful than the upgrade defensively of a lesser impactful 2 guard and esp if they think Okoro at the 3 with them covers a lot of the weakness' with him able to defend 1-4 and every teams best player.

Sexton's scoring can't be turned in to wins unless he becomes more aware of his teammates, and either his defense improves or our influx of 7-footers gives us something TT could not.

We just need to see what will work, and hopefully they're willing to experiment.

lol nothing Sexton does offensively when he scores is taking points off the board its when he fails to make the right pass
and doesn't come through on his own that you have room to complain about it. DG is failing all over the place right now same as he did last season. Playing Sexton more minutes is a given unless you want DG to tank your season

what's the deal with Bolden? I kind of like him a bit. Although sending him down to Canton and pulling him up after you waive/trade Javale could be fine.

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:If DG can keep a positive attitude if they do in fact decide he is best coming off the bench accepting his place is not starter level yet and use it as fuel to improve instead of constantly struggling against starters all season like yr 1 he might be worth developing.
I mean I think you have to play Sexton starter minutes if not a starter at this point if you want to start winning just for his offense and maybe that works to his advantage being able to feast on 2nd units but it also might prove detrimental to the starting line up to not have his scoring against better defenders if DG isnt producing at a higher level at the same position.
We shall see what they decide to do, I am not worried just yet, but I have seen this org over commit to their lottery picks until LBJ walked through the door and I think its not insane to think they still want a 2 combo guard starting line up esp if they think the threat of both is more useful than the upgrade defensively of a lesser impactful 2 guard and esp if they think Okoro at the 3 with them covers a lot of the weakness' with him able to defend 1-4 and every teams best player.

Sexton's scoring can't be turned in to wins unless he becomes more aware of his teammates, and either his defense improves or our influx of 7-footers gives us something TT could not.

We just need to see what will work, and hopefully they're willing to experiment.

lol nothing Sexton does offensively when he scores is taking points off the board its when he fails to make the right pass
and doesn't come through on his own that you have room to complain about it. DG is failing all over the place right now same as he did last season. Playing Sexton more minutes is a given unless you want DG to tank your season

If basketball wasn't a team sport, you might have a point.

Wins and losses are the only given. The units which show success should be the ones that are emphasized.

Harper4Ferry? wrote:what's the deal with Bolden? I kind of like him a bit. Although sending him down to Canton and pulling him up after you waive/trade Javale could be fine.

He had a nice game against the Knicks, but looked over his head .vs. the Pacers. It's possible he makes the roster just because of the load management, and likely limits on JaVale and Larry's minutes.

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Sexton's scoring can't be turned in to wins unless he becomes more aware of his teammates, and either his defense improves or our influx of 7-footers gives us something TT could not.

We just need to see what will work, and hopefully they're willing to experiment.

lol nothing Sexton does offensively when he scores is taking points off the board its when he fails to make the right pass
and doesn't come through on his own that you have room to complain about it. DG is failing all over the place right now same as he did last season. Playing Sexton more minutes is a given unless you want DG to tank your season

If basketball wasn't a team sport, you might have a point.

Wins and losses are the only given. The units which show success should be the ones that are emphasized.

thats just not realistic in the NBA the way you are implying anymore though...everything is about beating your man and scoring and whoever is the best on the team takes precedence over the next options etc. Adjustments on the fly and developing chemistry aka a two man game is the most common success route so that defenses have a tough time etc. It is one thing to try to be establishing who the best option is can be a struggle during a rebuild if your best options need fed by the lesser option on paper but who is more than capable of getting his own shot vs one who is supposed to be a creator but isnt a scoring threat enough to draw defenders and free up passing lanes etc. IMO acting like some traditional country ass pg system ever works well without elite shooters around them or being one yourself cuts it at the NBA level is just something I cant understand.
as far as wins and losses nothing is given lol

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:lol nothing Sexton does offensively when he scores is taking points off the board its when he fails to make the right pass
and doesn't come through on his own that you have room to complain about it. DG is failing all over the place right now same as he did last season. Playing Sexton more minutes is a given unless you want DG to tank your season

If basketball wasn't a team sport, you might have a point.

Wins and losses are the only given. The units which show success should be the ones that are emphasized.

thats just not realistic in the NBA the way you are implying anymore though...everything is about beating your man and scoring and whoever is the best on the team takes precedence over the next options etc. Adjustments on the fly and developing chemistry aka a two man game is the most common success route so that defenses have a tough time etc. It is one thing to try to be establishing who the best option is can be a struggle during a rebuild if your best options need fed by the lesser option on paper but who is more than capable of getting his own shot vs one who is supposed to be a creator but isnt a scoring threat enough to draw defenders and free up passing lanes etc. IMO acting like some traditional country ass pg system ever works well without elite shooters around them or being one yourself cuts it at the NBA level is just something I cant understand.
as far as wins and losses nothing is given lol

This debate is very tired so I'll add this and leave it alone: Things have quite clearly not worked with Sexton going YOLO for the last two years. The Cavs have finished with the second worst record in the NBA both seasons. Garland didn't play in a lot of those losses, Love didn't play in a lot of those losses, and the one constant has been Sexton basically taking all the shots and doing nothing else that helps the team.

There's very little evidence that making Sexton the cornerstone of this organization is in anyway a good idea. If he realizes 50% of your projected improvement, I'll reevaluate. But right now, he still has a lot to prove to satisfy skeptics that he's not a Wiggins or LaVine type, who can put up a lot of points by taking a lot of shots on a bad team, but would be better coming off the bench on a good one.

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jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
If basketball wasn't a team sport, you might have a point.

Wins and losses are the only given. The units which show success should be the ones that are emphasized.

thats just not realistic in the NBA the way you are implying anymore though...everything is about beating your man and scoring and whoever is the best on the team takes precedence over the next options etc. Adjustments on the fly and developing chemistry aka a two man game is the most common success route so that defenses have a tough time etc. It is one thing to try to be establishing who the best option is can be a struggle during a rebuild if your best options need fed by the lesser option on paper but who is more than capable of getting his own shot vs one who is supposed to be a creator but isnt a scoring threat enough to draw defenders and free up passing lanes etc. IMO acting like some traditional country ass pg system ever works well without elite shooters around them or being one yourself cuts it at the NBA level is just something I cant understand.
as far as wins and losses nothing is given lol

This debate is very tired so I'll add this and leave it alone: Things have quite clearly not worked with Sexton going YOLO for the last two years. The Cavs have finished with the second worst record in the NBA both seasons. Garland didn't play in a lot of those losses, Love didn't play in a lot of those losses, and the one constant has been Sexton basically taking all the shots and doing nothing else that helps the team.

There's very little evidence that making Sexton the cornerstone of this organization is in anyway a good idea. If he realizes 50% of your projected improvement, I'll reevaluate. But right now, he still has a lot to prove to satisfy skeptics that he's not a Wiggins or LaVine type, who can put up a lot of points by taking a lot of shots on a bad team, but would be better coming off the bench on a good one.

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LeBron James played in 55 games in the 18-19 season and they went 28-27 with players in and out of the roster all season. Would you say LeBron was the reason for those losses since he was the only constant in those games?

Also by taking out your better/best players from around another player, it will obviously make a difference. It would be different if we were talking about end of the bench rotation guys, but when you are missing key players it matters. Not to mention lack of clear direction from coaching, constant coaching changes etc. I mean Garland hasn't even shown 1/10th of what Sexton is and you can't seem to be propping him up.

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:thats just not realistic in the NBA the way you are implying anymore though...everything is about beating your man and scoring and whoever is the best on the team takes precedence over the next options etc. Adjustments on the fly and developing chemistry aka a two man game is the most common success route so that defenses have a tough time etc. It is one thing to try to be establishing who the best option is can be a struggle during a rebuild if your best options need fed by the lesser option on paper but who is more than capable of getting his own shot vs one who is supposed to be a creator but isnt a scoring threat enough to draw defenders and free up passing lanes etc. IMO acting like some traditional country ass pg system ever works well without elite shooters around them or being one yourself cuts it at the NBA level is just something I cant understand.
as far as wins and losses nothing is given lol

This debate is very tired so I'll add this and leave it alone: Things have quite clearly not worked with Sexton going YOLO for the last two years. The Cavs have finished with the second worst record in the NBA both seasons. Garland didn't play in a lot of those losses, Love didn't play in a lot of those losses, and the one constant has been Sexton basically taking all the shots and doing nothing else that helps the team.

There's very little evidence that making Sexton the cornerstone of this organization is in anyway a good idea. If he realizes 50% of your projected improvement, I'll reevaluate. But right now, he still has a lot to prove to satisfy skeptics that he's not a Wiggins or LaVine type, who can put up a lot of points by taking a lot of shots on a bad team, but would be better coming off the bench on a good one.

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LeBron James played in 55 games in the 18-19 season and they went 28-27 with players in and out of the roster all season. Would you say LeBron was the reason for those losses since he was the only constant in those games?

Also by taking out your better/best players from around another player, it will obviously make a difference. It would be different if we were talking about end of the bench rotation guys, but when you are missing key players it matters. Not to mention lack of clear direction from coaching, constant coaching changes etc. I mean Garland hasn't even shown 1/10th of what Sexton is and you can't seem to be propping him up.

And now we're comparing Sexton to LBJ...

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Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Stillwater wrote:thats just not realistic in the NBA the way you are implying anymore though...everything is about beating your man and scoring and whoever is the best on the team takes precedence over the next options etc. Adjustments on the fly and developing chemistry aka a two man game is the most common success route so that defenses have a tough time etc. It is one thing to try to be establishing who the best option is can be a struggle during a rebuild if your best options need fed by the lesser option on paper but who is more than capable of getting his own shot vs one who is supposed to be a creator but isnt a scoring threat enough to draw defenders and free up passing lanes etc. IMO acting like some traditional country ass pg system ever works well without elite shooters around them or being one yourself cuts it at the NBA level is just something I cant understand.
as far as wins and losses nothing is given lol

This debate is very tired so I'll add this and leave it alone: Things have quite clearly not worked with Sexton going YOLO for the last two years. The Cavs have finished with the second worst record in the NBA both seasons. Garland didn't play in a lot of those losses, Love didn't play in a lot of those losses, and the one constant has been Sexton basically taking all the shots and doing nothing else that helps the team.

There's very little evidence that making Sexton the cornerstone of this organization is in anyway a good idea. If he realizes 50% of your projected improvement, I'll reevaluate. But right now, he still has a lot to prove to satisfy skeptics that he's not a Wiggins or LaVine type, who can put up a lot of points by taking a lot of shots on a bad team, but would be better coming off the bench on a good one.

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LeBron James played in 55 games in the 18-19 season and they went 28-27 with players in and out of the roster all season. Would you say LeBron was the reason for those losses since he was the only constant in those games?

Also by taking out your better/best players from around another player, it will obviously make a difference. It would be different if we were talking about end of the bench rotation guys, but when you are missing key players it matters. Not to mention lack of clear direction from coaching, constant coaching changes etc. I mean Garland hasn't even shown 1/10th of what Sexton is and you can't seem to be propping him up.

If this is a serious question, I'd love to explain how you can examine what was going on with the Lakers that season in more detail (albeit I'm far more comfortable talking about the Cavs in general).

For starters, take a look here:

http://www.82games.com/1819/1819LAL.HTM

James has at times been responsible for poor performance such as when he decides to sleep-walk on defense, but in this case the Lakers were +2.9 with James on the floor which corresponds to roughly a 50-win pace. When he was off the floor, however, the Lakers were -6.2 which is basically bottom dweller land.

So, as was often the case with the Cavs, his team was bleeding points when he wasn't on the floor.

Now if you know the Lakers (and even I know this much) James was not the same when he came back from his groin injury - which is not uncommon as that kind of injury is slow to heal. If I remember right, the Lakers were in the thick of playoff race up until that injury.

So, if the numbers weren't already telling us clearly that James was not the problem with that team, we'd want to look at his splits; and if we didn't have to worry about his injury, we'd want to go straight ahead to the Laker's 5-man units.

To eyeball his splits, we can go here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/splits/2019

And we can see his +/- got off to a slow start in October and November, then peaked in December at +8.0, and fell off the rest of the season post-injury. This is not an atypical pattern for LeBron to start slow and play his way in to shape for the playoffs - which was obviously interrupted by the injury.

Anyway, what jbk1234 said is both accurate and supported by stats. Sexton's scoring is not (for the most part) making the team better. We can dig up some instances (5-man-units/time periods) that look promising, but there's not enough data to show that he's turned any sort of corner and become a contributor to winning or that there's necessarily a lineup that would turn him in to one.

Now sometimes a starting 5 just sucks and a good player that plays a lot of minutes gets pummeled in these stats because he's on the floor so much taking a beating from the other team's first unit while other players feast on backups. That happens, but when that happens - the better players in the starting unit generally have better numbers unless they only play with the starters (not the case for Collin).

Having a great ISO scorer alone does not make a 5-man unit great. There's a lot that goes in to it, and if that player is actually bringing the other players down, you may very well be better off with a player that simply does less allowing the other guys to do more.

So, for instance, stuff like Kevin being our best clutch scorer comes in to play. If Collin tries to win games by trying to score on his own, the numbers are bad. We will likely fail. If he or someone is getting the ball to Kevin with a decent look, our chances go way up.

Young players need to learn how to play winning basketball.

Stillwater wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

Stillwater wrote:lol nothing Sexton does offensively when he scores is taking points off the board its when he fails to make the right pass
and doesn't come through on his own that you have room to complain about it. DG is failing all over the place right now same as he did last season. Playing Sexton more minutes is a given unless you want DG to tank your season

If basketball wasn't a team sport, you might have a point.

Wins and losses are the only given. The units which show success should be the ones that are emphasized.

thats just not realistic in the NBA the way you are implying anymore though...everything is about beating your man and scoring and whoever is the best on the team takes precedence over the next options etc. Adjustments on the fly and developing chemistry aka a two man game is the most common success route so that defenses have a tough time etc. It is one thing to try to be establishing who the best option is can be a struggle during a rebuild if your best options need fed by the lesser option on paper but who is more than capable of getting his own shot vs one who is supposed to be a creator but isnt a scoring threat enough to draw defenders and free up passing lanes etc. IMO acting like some traditional country ass pg system ever works well without elite shooters around them or being one yourself cuts it at the NBA level is just something I cant understand.
as far as wins and losses nothing is given lol

And if a team can win with a couple of players executing a 2-man game, more power to them, but you're not describing the Cavs.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:This debate is very tired so I'll add this and leave it alone: Things have quite clearly not worked with Sexton going YOLO for the last two years. The Cavs have finished with the second worst record in the NBA both seasons. Garland didn't play in a lot of those losses, Love didn't play in a lot of those losses, and the one constant has been Sexton basically taking all the shots and doing nothing else that helps the team.

There's very little evidence that making Sexton the cornerstone of this organization is in anyway a good idea. If he realizes 50% of your projected improvement, I'll reevaluate. But right now, he still has a lot to prove to satisfy skeptics that he's not a Wiggins or LaVine type, who can put up a lot of points by taking a lot of shots on a bad team, but would be better coming off the bench on a good one.

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LeBron James played in 55 games in the 18-19 season and they went 28-27 with players in and out of the roster all season. Would you say LeBron was the reason for those losses since he was the only constant in those games?

Also by taking out your better/best players from around another player, it will obviously make a difference. It would be different if we were talking about end of the bench rotation guys, but when you are missing key players it matters. Not to mention lack of clear direction from coaching, constant coaching changes etc. I mean Garland hasn't even shown 1/10th of what Sexton is and you can't seem to be propping him up.

And now we're comparing Sexton to LBJ...

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I was simply using your own massively flawed argument in the most glaringly ridiculous way to make a point. Wins and losses are hard to come by when the players around you are bad, no matter who you are. The fact that the best player on the planet could barely get over a .500 record due to those struggles show that. Now you are expecting a rookie/second year player to play at that sort of level? What were the Cavs record with Kyrie? Pretty sure we sucked then too with one of the worst records in the NBA as Kyrie did his YOLO thing. Sure Kyrie had less on the roster than the current Cavs, but no one said Sexton was Kyrie coming out or even close to it.

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:
LeBron James played in 55 games in the 18-19 season and they went 28-27 with players in and out of the roster all season. Would you say LeBron was the reason for those losses since he was the only constant in those games?

Also by taking out your better/best players from around another player, it will obviously make a difference. It would be different if we were talking about end of the bench rotation guys, but when you are missing key players it matters. Not to mention lack of clear direction from coaching, constant coaching changes etc. I mean Garland hasn't even shown 1/10th of what Sexton is and you can't seem to be propping him up.

And now we're comparing Sexton to LBJ...

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I was simply using your own massively flawed argument in the most glaringly ridiculous way to make a point. Wins and losses are hard to come by when the players around you are bad, no matter who you are. The fact that the best player on the planet could barely get over a .500 record due to those struggles show that. Now you are expecting a rookie/second year player to play at that sort of level? What were the Cavs record with Kyrie? Pretty sure we sucked then too with one of the worst records in the NBA as Kyrie did his YOLO thing. Sure Kyrie had less on the roster than the current Cavs, but no one said Sexton was Kyrie coming out or even close to it.

Compare LBJ's RPM and Sexton's RPM and get back to me. The truth is that Sexton actually made the second to worst team in the NBA worse when he took the floor according to advanced stats. You can quibble over how complete a picture those stats paint, but the analogy is absurd for that reason alone.

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Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:
LeBron James played in 55 games in the 18-19 season and they went 28-27 with players in and out of the roster all season. Would you say LeBron was the reason for those losses since he was the only constant in those games?

Also by taking out your better/best players from around another player, it will obviously make a difference. It would be different if we were talking about end of the bench rotation guys, but when you are missing key players it matters. Not to mention lack of clear direction from coaching, constant coaching changes etc. I mean Garland hasn't even shown 1/10th of what Sexton is and you can't seem to be propping him up.

And now we're comparing Sexton to LBJ...

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I was simply using your own massively flawed argument in the most glaringly ridiculous way to make a point. Wins and losses are hard to come by when the players around you are bad, no matter who you are. The fact that the best player on the planet could barely get over a .500 record due to those struggles show that. Now you are expecting a rookie/second year player to play at that sort of level? What were the Cavs record with Kyrie? Pretty sure we sucked then too with one of the worst records in the NBA as Kyrie did his YOLO thing. Sure Kyrie had less on the roster than the current Cavs, but no one said Sexton was Kyrie coming out or even close to it.

The discussion was that it's simply not clear that the team would be better starting Sexton and sitting Garland than the reverse. The fact that Collin can score more points with better efficiency does not demonstrate that he'd be the more effective option.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:And now we're comparing Sexton to LBJ...

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I was simply using your own massively flawed argument in the most glaringly ridiculous way to make a point. Wins and losses are hard to come by when the players around you are bad, no matter who you are. The fact that the best player on the planet could barely get over a .500 record due to those struggles show that. Now you are expecting a rookie/second year player to play at that sort of level? What were the Cavs record with Kyrie? Pretty sure we sucked then too with one of the worst records in the NBA as Kyrie did his YOLO thing. Sure Kyrie had less on the roster than the current Cavs, but no one said Sexton was Kyrie coming out or even close to it.

Compare LBJ's RPM and Sexton's RPM and get back to me. The truth is that Sexton actually made the second to worst team in the NBA worse when he took the floor according to advanced stats. You can quibble over how complete a picture those stats paint, but the analogy is absurd for that reason alone.

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he only made them worse because they scored less when he scored instead I guess right?
I understand the arguments that any player with high usage no matter how good they are can be a net negative if he doesnt make his teammates better so there is certainly arguments that he is not a first option but in a lot of these scenarios it wouldnt have been a winning team if Sexton was a pass first guard either.
Would it have been nicer to pad the stats of his teammates while driving his down or worse them not making shots ala garland etc
it makes little sense to me to try to fault Sexton for scoring first when that is his main strength anymore than it makes sense to try to hope DG will be that guy when he isnt apparently either.
I will take the guy who at least can score and then maybe if I want him to share the rock which they are clearly going to try to do more etc etc leaving tanking behind etc etc just like every coach says improving on D just like every coach says etc etc still wont change the fact that Sexton is better than Garland at the game of basketball even if DG shares more because he cant score as well.