preseason opportunities

[LivingLegend]

I love how this thread is 4 pages of debating Garland and Sextons impact lol

[jbk1234]

I love how this thread is 4 pages of debating Garland and Sextons impact lol

I'm legit trying to make it about anything else, but it's Kyrie v. Dion all over again except I'm not convinced Sexton or Garland are as good.

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[JonFromVA]

I was simply using your own massively flawed argument in the most glaringly ridiculous way to make a point. Wins and losses are hard to come by when the players around you are bad, no matter who you are. The fact that the best player on the planet could barely get over a .500 record due to those struggles show that. Now you are expecting a rookie/second year player to play at that sort of level? What were the Cavs record with Kyrie? Pretty sure we sucked then too with one of the worst records in the NBA as Kyrie did his YOLO thing. Sure Kyrie had less on the roster than the current Cavs, but no one said Sexton was Kyrie coming out or even close to it.

Compare LBJ's RPM and Sexton's RPM and get back to me. The truth is that Sexton actually made the second to worst team in the NBA worse when he took the floor according to advanced stats. You can quibble over how complete a picture those stats paint, but the analogy is absurd for that reason alone.

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he only made them worse because they scored less when he scored instead I guess right?
I understand the arguments that any player with high usage no matter how good they are can be a net negative if he doesnt make his teammates better so there is certainly arguments that he is not a first option but in a lot of these scenarios it wouldnt have been a winning team if Sexton was a pass first guard either.
Would it have been nicer to pad the stats of his teammates while driving his down or worse them not making shots ala garland etc
it makes little sense to me to try to fault Sexton for scoring first when that is his main strength anymore than it makes sense to try to hope DG will be that guy when he isnt apparently either.
I will take the guy who at least can score and then maybe if I want him to share the rock which they are clearly going to try to do more etc etc leaving tanking behind etc etc just like every coach says improving on D just like every coach says etc etc still wont change the fact that Sexton is better than Garland at the game of basketball even if DG shares more because he cant score as well.

You can take whoever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that based on what we've seen, neither player should be in the starting lineup if the goal is to improve our win total. Fortunately, that may all change once the season gets rolling - which gets back to the point I've been making over and over - let's see where we're at with Sexton and Garland in the backcourt, give them some run, and adjust accordingly based on what makes the most sense for the team.

Back in LeBron's early days, we actually sent out a pretty crappy starting lineup and let them eat minutes. We'd then send in Andy, LeBron, and shooters and build our lead. So, yeah, whatever makes the most sense.

[Stillwater]

Compare LBJ's RPM and Sexton's RPM and get back to me. The truth is that Sexton actually made the second to worst team in the NBA worse when he took the floor according to advanced stats. You can quibble over how complete a picture those stats paint, but the analogy is absurd for that reason alone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

he only made them worse because they scored less when he scored instead I guess right?
I understand the arguments that any player with high usage no matter how good they are can be a net negative if he doesnt make his teammates better so there is certainly arguments that he is not a first option but in a lot of these scenarios it wouldnt have been a winning team if Sexton was a pass first guard either.
Would it have been nicer to pad the stats of his teammates while driving his down or worse them not making shots ala garland etc
it makes little sense to me to try to fault Sexton for scoring first when that is his main strength anymore than it makes sense to try to hope DG will be that guy when he isnt apparently either.
I will take the guy who at least can score and then maybe if I want him to share the rock which they are clearly going to try to do more etc etc leaving tanking behind etc etc just like every coach says improving on D just like every coach says etc etc still wont change the fact that Sexton is better than Garland at the game of basketball even if DG shares more because he cant score as well.

You can take whoever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that based on what we've seen, neither player should be in the starting lineup if the goal is to improve our win total. Fortunately, that may all change once the season gets rolling - which gets back to the point I've been making over and over - let's see where we're at with Sexton and Garland in the backcourt, give them some run, and adjust accordingly based on what makes the most sense for the team.

Back in LeBron's early days, we actually sent out a pretty crappy starting lineup and let them eat minutes. We'd then send in Andy, LeBron, and shooters and build our lead. So, yeah, whatever makes the most sense.

Now neither should play against starters lol cmon man
Sexton is a better player period taking him out of the sl just weakens the rotation.
This is laughable

[JonFromVA]

he only made them worse because they scored less when he scored instead I guess right?
I understand the arguments that any player with high usage no matter how good they are can be a net negative if he doesnt make his teammates better so there is certainly arguments that he is not a first option but in a lot of these scenarios it wouldnt have been a winning team if Sexton was a pass first guard either.
Would it have been nicer to pad the stats of his teammates while driving his down or worse them not making shots ala garland etc
it makes little sense to me to try to fault Sexton for scoring first when that is his main strength anymore than it makes sense to try to hope DG will be that guy when he isnt apparently either.
I will take the guy who at least can score and then maybe if I want him to share the rock which they are clearly going to try to do more etc etc leaving tanking behind etc etc just like every coach says improving on D just like every coach says etc etc still wont change the fact that Sexton is better than Garland at the game of basketball even if DG shares more because he cant score as well.

You can take whoever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that based on what we've seen, neither player should be in the starting lineup if the goal is to improve our win total. Fortunately, that may all change once the season gets rolling - which gets back to the point I've been making over and over - let's see where we're at with Sexton and Garland in the backcourt, give them some run, and adjust accordingly based on what makes the most sense for the team.

Back in LeBron's early days, we actually sent out a pretty crappy starting lineup and let them eat minutes. We'd then send in Andy, LeBron, and shooters and build our lead. So, yeah, whatever makes the most sense.

Now neither should play against starters lol cmon man
Sexton is a better player period taking him out of the sl just weakens the rotation.
This is laughable

Laugh all you want ... it won't change the fact the Cavs were -9.1 (pp100) when Collin was on the floor last season, and -5.7 when he wasn't. Only Thompson had a worse differential among the starters, and he's already gone.

After dumping Clarkson and Knight it wasn't exactly a high bar to be better than the players we bring off the bench ... currently Exum and Delly are now the only veteran guards on the roster.

[Revenged25]

You can take whoever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that based on what we've seen, neither player should be in the starting lineup if the goal is to improve our win total. Fortunately, that may all change once the season gets rolling - which gets back to the point I've been making over and over - let's see where we're at with Sexton and Garland in the backcourt, give them some run, and adjust accordingly based on what makes the most sense for the team.

Back in LeBron's early days, we actually sent out a pretty crappy starting lineup and let them eat minutes. We'd then send in Andy, LeBron, and shooters and build our lead. So, yeah, whatever makes the most sense.

Now neither should play against starters lol cmon man
Sexton is a better player period taking him out of the sl just weakens the rotation.
This is laughable

Laugh all you want ... it won't change the fact the Cavs were -9.1 (pp100) when Collin was on the floor last season, and -5.7 when he wasn't. Only Thompson had a worse differential among the starters, and he's already gone.

After dumping Clarkson and Knight it wasn't exactly a high bar to be better than the players we bring off the bench ... currently Exum and Delly are now the only veteran guards on the roster.

You're using a flawed stat that doesn't take into consideration multiple factors. How about we use a better one, though still flawed, in Win Shares as well as BPM.

Player - OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
Garland: -1.3, 0, -1.3, -.034, -2.7, -2.8, -5.6
Sexton: 2.1, 0.4, 2.5, .057, 0.3, -2.1, -1.8

Looks like using these stats Sexton was better than Garland.

[Stillwater]

What concerns me most about DG right now 3 things really and I am excited to see if he can put it together this season because his ability to create space with those handles is special but on to the issues ;1 :he either doesn't have the green light to shoot from 3 because they are not falling or he is not confident in it right now only taking 12 attempts in 3 games and making 4 that's 33%.
2. turnovers no explanation needed. 3. he's playing without Sexton and still struggling to get it done as a point guard with 8 dimes total in those 3 outings indicating even having larger more traditional off ball guards next to him doesn't change the problem is him more than anything just not being as good as advertised as a floor general.
the 4th thing which is not DG directly is;
I see this org is going to push DG in the sl even if he continues to struggle and Sexton is too good not to start or at minimum play starter minutes so they will be sharing the court a lot again.Which if anything can be agreed about on here it's that that is a bad idea if for no other reason than it hurts them defensively.
If anything DG hurts Sexton not the other way around unless DG starts hitting that outside shot at 40% and does it on at least 7 attempts per game otherwise it's just him overdribbling and searching for bigs to dump the ball too when the trees close in on him

[Stillwater]

You can take whoever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that based on what we've seen, neither player should be in the starting lineup if the goal is to improve our win total. Fortunately, that may all change once the season gets rolling - which gets back to the point I've been making over and over - let's see where we're at with Sexton and Garland in the backcourt, give them some run, and adjust accordingly based on what makes the most sense for the team.

Back in LeBron's early days, we actually sent out a pretty crappy starting lineup and let them eat minutes. We'd then send in Andy, LeBron, and shooters and build our lead. So, yeah, whatever makes the most sense.

Now neither should play against starters lol cmon man
Sexton is a better player period taking him out of the sl just weakens the rotation.
This is laughable

Laugh all you want ... it won't change the fact the Cavs were -9.1 (pp100) when Collin was on the floor last season, and -5.7 when he wasn't. Only Thompson had a worse differential among the starters, and he's already gone.

After dumping Clarkson and Knight it wasn't exactly a high bar to be better than the players we bring off the bench ... currently Exum and Delly are now the only veteran guards on the roster.

he wasnt the problem buddy but keep telling yourself that

[JonFromVA]

Now neither should play against starters lol cmon man
Sexton is a better player period taking him out of the sl just weakens the rotation.
This is laughable

Laugh all you want ... it won't change the fact the Cavs were -9.1 (pp100) when Collin was on the floor last season, and -5.7 when he wasn't. Only Thompson had a worse differential among the starters, and he's already gone.

After dumping Clarkson and Knight it wasn't exactly a high bar to be better than the players we bring off the bench ... currently Exum and Delly are now the only veteran guards on the roster.

You're using a flawed stat that doesn't take into consideration multiple factors. How about we use a better one, though still flawed, in Win Shares as well as BPM.

Player - OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
Garland: -1.3, 0, -1.3, -.034, -2.7, -2.8, -5.6
Sexton: 2.1, 0.4, 2.5, .057, 0.3, -2.1, -1.8

Looks like using these stats Sexton was better than Garland.

The stat I used takes in to account only one factor ... what the actual units did (pts scored .vs. pts given up) when the player in question was on the floor or off it.

Win Shares and BPM are based on box score stats and various estimates, so, at best what you're saying is Sexton put up more impressive box score stats than Garland - which is not something being contested.

Kevin Love led the Cavs in defensive win shares last season. Do you think he was the Cavs best defender? Do you understand why DWS rates him so highly?

[JonFromVA]

What concerns me most about DG right now 3 things really and I am excited to see if he can put it together this season because his ability to create space with those handles is special but on to the issues ;1 :he either doesn't have the green light to shoot from 3 because they are not falling or he is not confident in it right now only taking 12 attempts in 3 games and making 4 that's 33%.
2. turnovers no explanation needed. 3. he's playing without Sexton and still struggling to get it done as a point guard with 8 dimes total in those 3 outings indicating even having larger more traditional off ball guards next to him doesn't change the problem is him more than anything just not being as good as advertised as a floor general.
the 4th thing which is not DG directly is;
I see this org is going to push DG in the sl even if he continues to struggle and Sexton is too good not to start or at minimum play starter minutes so they will be sharing the court a lot again.Which if anything can be agreed about on here it's that that is a bad idea if for no other reason than it hurts them defensively.
If anything DG hurts Sexton not the other way around unless DG starts hitting that outside shot at 40% and does it on at least 7 attempts per game otherwise it's just him overdribbling and searching for bigs to dump the ball too when the trees close in on him

Garland dished 5 assists with just 1 turnover .vs. the Knicks in just 23 minutes and was 2 of 3 on his 3pters. He shot 37% on his 3pters last season and would had set the Cavs rookie record for 3pters made if the season wasn't called short.

So, there's reason to believe his 3pt shot is fine and if/when he develops full confidence in it we should see his attempts climb. His turnovers and lack of assists in the first 2 games can be attributed to rust (tons of TO's across the league) and the Pacer's starters hustling hard on D.

20 games is the early season benchmark. If you draw conclusions before that point, prepare to be wrong.

[Stillwater]

What concerns me most about DG right now 3 things really and I am excited to see if he can put it together this season because his ability to create space with those handles is special but on to the issues ;1 :he either doesn't have the green light to shoot from 3 because they are not falling or he is not confident in it right now only taking 12 attempts in 3 games and making 4 that's 33%.
2. turnovers no explanation needed. 3. he's playing without Sexton and still struggling to get it done as a point guard with 8 dimes total in those 3 outings indicating even having larger more traditional off ball guards next to him doesn't change the problem is him more than anything just not being as good as advertised as a floor general.
the 4th thing which is not DG directly is;
I see this org is going to push DG in the sl even if he continues to struggle and Sexton is too good not to start or at minimum play starter minutes so they will be sharing the court a lot again.Which if anything can be agreed about on here it's that that is a bad idea if for no other reason than it hurts them defensively.
If anything DG hurts Sexton not the other way around unless DG starts hitting that outside shot at 40% and does it on at least 7 attempts per game otherwise it's just him overdribbling and searching for bigs to dump the ball too when the trees close in on him

Garland dished 5 assists with just 1 turnover .vs. the Knicks in just 23 minutes and was 2 of 3 on his 3pters. He shot 37% on his 3pters last season and would had set the Cavs rookie record for 3pters made if the season wasn't called short.

So, there's reason to believe his 3pt shot is fine and if/when he develops full confidence in it we should see his attempts climb. His turnovers and lack of assists in the first 2 games can be attributed to rust (tons of TO's across the league) and the Pacer's starters hustling hard on D.

20 games is the early season benchmark. If you draw conclusions before that point, prepare to be wrong.

ok were his made 3s open looks or contested ? did the 2-9 aka 22% from 3 in the other two games matter or no?
His 3 point shot might be fine but if it aint falling against defenders that are meh it wont against better ones either not at a 40% clip which although its just my opinion has to be his baseline to be impactful enough to be considered a long term core piece for this roster.
Rust? yeah they are all rusty playing the organized game, but shooting is the last thing I would think they should be rusty regarding with all the time in the gym alone

[JonFromVA]

What concerns me most about DG right now 3 things really and I am excited to see if he can put it together this season because his ability to create space with those handles is special but on to the issues ;1 :he either doesn't have the green light to shoot from 3 because they are not falling or he is not confident in it right now only taking 12 attempts in 3 games and making 4 that's 33%.
2. turnovers no explanation needed. 3. he's playing without Sexton and still struggling to get it done as a point guard with 8 dimes total in those 3 outings indicating even having larger more traditional off ball guards next to him doesn't change the problem is him more than anything just not being as good as advertised as a floor general.
the 4th thing which is not DG directly is;
I see this org is going to push DG in the sl even if he continues to struggle and Sexton is too good not to start or at minimum play starter minutes so they will be sharing the court a lot again.Which if anything can be agreed about on here it's that that is a bad idea if for no other reason than it hurts them defensively.
If anything DG hurts Sexton not the other way around unless DG starts hitting that outside shot at 40% and does it on at least 7 attempts per game otherwise it's just him overdribbling and searching for bigs to dump the ball too when the trees close in on him

Garland dished 5 assists with just 1 turnover .vs. the Knicks in just 23 minutes and was 2 of 3 on his 3pters. He shot 37% on his 3pters last season and would had set the Cavs rookie record for 3pters made if the season wasn't called short.

So, there's reason to believe his 3pt shot is fine and if/when he develops full confidence in it we should see his attempts climb. His turnovers and lack of assists in the first 2 games can be attributed to rust (tons of TO's across the league) and the Pacer's starters hustling hard on D.

20 games is the early season benchmark. If you draw conclusions before that point, prepare to be wrong.

ok were his made 3s open looks or contested ? did the 2-9 aka 22% from 3 in the other two games matter or no?
His 3 point shot might be fine but if it aint falling against defenders that are meh it wont against better ones either not at a 40% clip which although its just my opinion has to be his baseline to be impactful enough to be considered a long term core piece for this roster.
Rust? yeah they are all rusty playing the organized game, but shooting is the last thing I would think they should be rusty regarding with all the time in the gym alone

Did you watch the games?

Shooting is about repetition, rhythm, and legs.

Darius has mentioned that being in "gym shape" is not the same thing as being in "game shape" and the rush in to the season has limited the opportunity for the players to get in to game shape. Given how much he dribbles around the court and what he's pointed out, it's likely his legs are just starting to come around.

I'd love to see him creating 3's for himself off the dribble (and burying them) in volume to the point the defense has no choice but to double team him. We were led to believe he was capable of that. We saw glimpses of it in College. We saw hints of it his rookie season. Hopefully we'll get more and they will come more frequently, but he's a long ways from a finished player.

[Stillwater]

some of these players like DG and Exum did look out of game shape at times I guess but it aint stopping Dre or Okoro for example who don't look even a little bit gassed out there. It's early in the season I just cannot for the life of me buy into a DG run offense being successful if this is what we can expect from him this season when he is playing real starters consistently not half fringe rotations players mixed in

[Revenged25]

Laugh all you want ... it won't change the fact the Cavs were -9.1 (pp100) when Collin was on the floor last season, and -5.7 when he wasn't. Only Thompson had a worse differential among the starters, and he's already gone.

After dumping Clarkson and Knight it wasn't exactly a high bar to be better than the players we bring off the bench ... currently Exum and Delly are now the only veteran guards on the roster.

You're using a flawed stat that doesn't take into consideration multiple factors. How about we use a better one, though still flawed, in Win Shares as well as BPM.

Player - OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
Garland: -1.3, 0, -1.3, -.034, -2.7, -2.8, -5.6
Sexton: 2.1, 0.4, 2.5, .057, 0.3, -2.1, -1.8

Looks like using these stats Sexton was better than Garland.

The stat I used takes in to account only one factor ... what the actual units did (pts scored .vs. pts given up) when the player in question was on the floor or off it.

Win Shares and BPM are based on box score stats and various estimates, so, at best what you're saying is Sexton put up more impressive box score stats than Garland - which is not something being contested.

Kevin Love led the Cavs in defensive win shares last season. Do you think he was the Cavs best defender? Do you understand why DWS rates him so highly?

You realize there are a lot of variables that affect your on/off numbers. I mean there are some really bad players that have had great on/off numbers because they are only on the floor when the other teams scrubs are in. Are you saying those players are better than someone with worse on/off numbers because they are on when the starters are?

[JonFromVA]

some of these players like DG and Exum did look out of game shape at times I guess but it aint stopping Dre or Okoro for example who don't look even a little bit gassed out there. It's early in the season I just cannot for the life of me buy into a DG run offense being successful if this is what we can expect from him this season when he is playing real starters consistently not half fringe rotations players mixed in

We're in agreement that Darius needs to play better if the Cavs are going to win anything. I'm just not convinced we have a better option unless Collin sitting on his hands all Summer and these past 3 games has somehow helped him figure out how to slow down, dribble with his head up, see his teammates, and not get lost on defense.

[Revenged25]

some of these players like DG and Exum did look out of game shape at times I guess but it aint stopping Dre or Okoro for example who don't look even a little bit gassed out there. It's early in the season I just cannot for the life of me buy into a DG run offense being successful if this is what we can expect from him this season when he is playing real starters consistently not half fringe rotations players mixed in

We're in agreement that Darius needs to play better if the Cavs are going to win anything. I'm just not convinced we have a better option unless Collin sitting on his hands all Summer and these past 3 games has somehow helped him figure out how to slow down, dribble with his head up, see his teammates, and not get lost on defense.

And what has Darius shown that he can do any of those things outside of 1 game where he actually got assists while the rest zip.

[gflem]

Well, it's the last preseason game and Collin is supposed to play. So maybe we get a glimpse tonight of them starting together and if it looks any different from last season. I am expecting them to both start to begin the season, and as somebody mentioned earlier 20 games or so should give us a much better idea of how they will or wont work together going forward.

[JonFromVA]

some of these players like DG and Exum did look out of game shape at times I guess but it aint stopping Dre or Okoro for example who don't look even a little bit gassed out there. It's early in the season I just cannot for the life of me buy into a DG run offense being successful if this is what we can expect from him this season when he is playing real starters consistently not half fringe rotations players mixed in

We're in agreement that Darius needs to play better if the Cavs are going to win anything. I'm just not convinced we have a better option unless Collin sitting on his hands all Summer and these past 3 games has somehow helped him figure out how to slow down, dribble with his head up, see his teammates, and not get lost on defense.

And what has Darius shown that he can do any of those things outside of 1 game where he actually got assists while the rest zip.

If you're just counting assists, he had more of those as a rookie than Collin. If you're counting skills, just watch the games and you can see that he knows how to go slow, can dribble with his head up, sees his teammates, and has better defensive awareness than Collin.

It's because they have different strengths and weaknesses that I feel they have a shot to compliment each other on offense. On defense, they both just need to get better/stronger/smarter.

[JonFromVA]

Well, it's the last preseason game and Collin is supposed to play. So maybe we get a glimpse tonight of them starting together and if it looks any different from last season. I am expecting them to both start to begin the season, and as somebody mentioned earlier 20 games or so should give us a much better idea of how they will or wont work together going forward.

The Knicks and Charlotte (coming up) are both poor defensive teams, so hopefully we'll get that glimpse; but otoh, it's hard for a starting unit to build any sort of chemistry when they never play together. Collin will apparently only play limited minutes and we should expect him to be rusty.

Cedi might play, though, so we may get another view of the Osman/Okoro competition.

McGee may get a few minutes too, so, that should be entertaining.

[Stillwater]

Sexton and Matthews are probable but unlikely to play much today imo.
I fully expect Garland to go out there and drop a 50 spot so I can go crawl in a cave in shame...
Actually I would walk away from the game if he is good enough to do that and I never saw it coming/.