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Dean Wade is starting. What a disaster of a season this has been.

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It's time to bring in Cedi. At least he can play transition defense. Wade looks like a guy who won a local Y contest and got to play 4 minutes in an NBA game.

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Hawks are getting away with hip checks on those screens. I hate flopping, but if the other team is gaining an advantage on uncalled fouls, I get it.

The alternative is to just put Livingston in and have him barrel through the action a couple times and force the issue.

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Sometimes McGee enters a close game and I just get a bad feeling.

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Trae Young is ridiculous. The NBA is ridiculous. They're breaking the league. I'm very close to turning this off.

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Okay, glad I hung in there. Also, if you had Stevens making the game winner, come on up and collect your winnings.

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Man, good thing it was Garland with the ball in his hands at the end so that he could find Stevens as we know Sexton wouldn't do that...

Revenged25 wrote:Man, good thing it was Garland with the ball in his hands at the end so that he could find Stevens as we know Sexton wouldn't do that...

Can you name another time in three years he has? Look, if he's starting to get it great, but one time makes it the exception.

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I do feel better about drafting Okoro after watching Okongwu play tonight. He's been hurt and hasn't gotten a lot of run, but he looked out of shape, not very good defensively, and very much like he had a long way to go.

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jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Man, good thing it was Garland with the ball in his hands at the end so that he could find Stevens as we know Sexton wouldn't do that...

Can you name another time in three years he has? Look, if he's starting to get it great, but one time makes it the exception.

Did you read Sexton when Revenged25 wrote Garland? DG hasn't been with the team 3 years, but hey our wins have been few and far between - there haven't been many opportunities for game winning plays let alone reason to remember the few there were.

Darius had a pretty rough game, but at least finished stronger than he started.

Personally, I was glad to see Wade get the start and just hope JBB is willing to give him more "rope" than just one game. We desperately need floor spacing threats like Wade and Windler, and Cedi just seems best off the bench.

Stevens is not a floor spacer, but JBB has got to reward his effort and play.

So, I kind of liked the lineup/rotations for a change.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:Man, good thing it was Garland with the ball in his hands at the end so that he could find Stevens as we know Sexton wouldn't do that...

Can you name another time in three years he has? Look, if he's starting to get it great, but one time makes it the exception.

Did you read Sexton when Revenged25 wrote Garland? DG hasn't been with the team 3 years, but hey our wins have been few and far between - there haven't been many opportunities for game winning plays let alone reason to remember the few there were.

Darius had a pretty rough game, but at least finished stronger than he started.

Personally, I was glad to see Wade get the start and just hope JBB is willing to give him more "rope" than just one game. We desperately need floor spacing threats like Wade and Windler, and Cedi just seems best off the bench.

Stevens is not a floor spacer, but JBB has got to reward his effort and play.

So, I kind of liked the lineup/rotations for a change.

I purposely put Garland instead Sexton as jbk is always dismissing anything Sexton does as "exceptions" while forgiving all the bad that Garland does and as expected you see the response. Also he was responding because it was actually Sexton that made the pass that Garland obviously, pretty sure he realized what I was trying to say and couldn't resist.

Revenged25 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Can you name another time in three years he has? Look, if he's starting to get it great, but one time makes it the exception.

Did you read Sexton when Revenged25 wrote Garland? DG hasn't been with the team 3 years, but hey our wins have been few and far between - there haven't been many opportunities for game winning plays let alone reason to remember the few there were.

Darius had a pretty rough game, but at least finished stronger than he started.

Personally, I was glad to see Wade get the start and just hope JBB is willing to give him more "rope" than just one game. We desperately need floor spacing threats like Wade and Windler, and Cedi just seems best off the bench.

Stevens is not a floor spacer, but JBB has got to reward his effort and play.

So, I kind of liked the lineup/rotations for a change.

I purposely put Garland instead Sexton as jbk is always dismissing anything Sexton does as "exceptions" while forgiving all the bad that Garland does and as expected you see the response. Also he was responding because it was actually Sexton that made the pass that Garland obviously, pretty sure he realized what I was trying to say and couldn't resist.

Yes, I assumed it was sarcasm because it wasn't exactly subtle. Sexton has learned that he handles traps poorly and got rid of the ball when he saw one coming. It's a step in the right direction but how you beat a trap is something you get taught in high school and it's a bit telling that people are taking victory laps because he passed the ball instead of turning it over in that situation.

As far as Garland's *rough game* he went for 17 and 8 on meh shooting, but he was also the only starter with a positive +/-. I do agree that they both play better when they play separately. I've believed that for two years now. They're both poor defenders and having two of them out there as starters appears very much to be a hole to deep to get out of.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Did you read Sexton when Revenged25 wrote Garland? DG hasn't been with the team 3 years, but hey our wins have been few and far between - there haven't been many opportunities for game winning plays let alone reason to remember the few there were.

Darius had a pretty rough game, but at least finished stronger than he started.

Personally, I was glad to see Wade get the start and just hope JBB is willing to give him more "rope" than just one game. We desperately need floor spacing threats like Wade and Windler, and Cedi just seems best off the bench.

Stevens is not a floor spacer, but JBB has got to reward his effort and play.

So, I kind of liked the lineup/rotations for a change.

I purposely put Garland instead Sexton as jbk is always dismissing anything Sexton does as "exceptions" while forgiving all the bad that Garland does and as expected you see the response. Also he was responding because it was actually Sexton that made the pass that Garland obviously, pretty sure he realized what I was trying to say and couldn't resist.

Yes, I assumed it was sarcasm because it wasn't exactly subtle. Sexton has learned that he handles traps poorly and got rid of the ball when he saw one coming. It's a step in the right direction but how you beat a trap is something you get taught in high school and it's a bit telling that people are taking victory laps because he passed the ball instead of turning it over in that situation.

As far as Garland's *rough game* he went for 17 and 8 on meh shooting, but he was also the only starter with a positive +/-. I do agree that they both play better when they play separately. I've believed that for two years now. They're both poor defenders and having two of them out there as starters appears very much to be a hole to deep to get out of.

Well do you really think Sexton was really bothered by potential traps prior to getting to the NBA? He's always been able to just use his natural ability to defeat opponents and he's now finding that not only are their a lot of people on the same level, they also play a lot smarter to prevent what he's good at. I've noticed that he's started pulling up for his amazing midrange shot a lot more often lately than just blindly driving through all of the defenders trying to close up the paint as well.

Also LoL at using the +/- argument when Sexton is normally the one that has to try and carry the B team offensively while Garland gets to benefit from playing with the A team the majority of the time. Also for your 17 and 8 on meh shooting, Sexton put up 29 and 5 on great shooting. Based on BPM Garland was a -12.6, worst on the team, while Sexton was a -4.2

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:
I purposely put Garland instead Sexton as jbk is always dismissing anything Sexton does as "exceptions" while forgiving all the bad that Garland does and as expected you see the response. Also he was responding because it was actually Sexton that made the pass that Garland obviously, pretty sure he realized what I was trying to say and couldn't resist.

Yes, I assumed it was sarcasm because it wasn't exactly subtle. Sexton has learned that he handles traps poorly and got rid of the ball when he saw one coming. It's a step in the right direction but how you beat a trap is something you get taught in high school and it's a bit telling that people are taking victory laps because he passed the ball instead of turning it over in that situation.

As far as Garland's *rough game* he went for 17 and 8 on meh shooting, but he was also the only starter with a positive +/-. I do agree that they both play better when they play separately. I've believed that for two years now. They're both poor defenders and having two of them out there as starters appears very much to be a hole to deep to get out of.

Well do you really think Sexton was really bothered by potential traps prior to getting to the NBA? He's always been able to just use his natural ability to defeat opponents and he's now finding that not only are their a lot of people on the same level, they also play a lot smarter to prevent what he's good at. I've noticed that he's started pulling up for his amazing midrange shot a lot more often lately than just blindly driving through all of the defenders trying to close up the paint as well.

Also LoL at using the +/- argument when Sexton is normally the one that has to try and carry the B team offensively while Garland gets to benefit from playing with the A team the majority of the time. Also for your 17 and 8 on meh shooting, Sexton put up 29 and 5 on great shooting. Based on BPM Garland was a -12.6, worst on the team, while Sexton was a -4.2

That's not what the box score states.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/boxscore/NBA_20210223_ATL@CLE/

Sexton added 8 points at the line while he and Trae were turning the game into a cheap foul contest. Don't get me wrong, if that's how the game is being called, he should do it, but it's ugly basketball.

These arguments about both guards are getting pretty old given the front office clearly doesn't agree with any of us playing both of them together on a nightly basis.
Eventually one will leave or find a lesser usage role on the roster and settle into it, but its unlikely to happen until the player or players that were needed in their place are acquired or step up from the current options.
Wade looked like a rookie in his first start but I loved seeing him show off his athleticism which he rarely did in college probably thanks to his injury history. He is definitely on the same level of win now role player as Windler from a developed college player stand point.
I think Stevens has obviously earned himself the 15th spot and they should convert him to it asap

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
Yes, I assumed it was sarcasm because it wasn't exactly subtle. Sexton has learned that he handles traps poorly and got rid of the ball when he saw one coming. It's a step in the right direction but how you beat a trap is something you get taught in high school and it's a bit telling that people are taking victory laps because he passed the ball instead of turning it over in that situation.

As far as Garland's *rough game* he went for 17 and 8 on meh shooting, but he was also the only starter with a positive +/-. I do agree that they both play better when they play separately. I've believed that for two years now. They're both poor defenders and having two of them out there as starters appears very much to be a hole to deep to get out of.

Well do you really think Sexton was really bothered by potential traps prior to getting to the NBA? He's always been able to just use his natural ability to defeat opponents and he's now finding that not only are their a lot of people on the same level, they also play a lot smarter to prevent what he's good at. I've noticed that he's started pulling up for his amazing midrange shot a lot more often lately than just blindly driving through all of the defenders trying to close up the paint as well.

Also LoL at using the +/- argument when Sexton is normally the one that has to try and carry the B team offensively while Garland gets to benefit from playing with the A team the majority of the time. Also for your 17 and 8 on meh shooting, Sexton put up 29 and 5 on great shooting. Based on BPM Garland was a -12.6, worst on the team, while Sexton was a -4.2

That's not what the box score states.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/boxscore/NBA_20210223_ATL@CLE/

Sexton added 8 points at the line while he and Trae were turning the game into a cheap foul contest. Don't get me wrong, if that's how the game is being called, he should do it, but it's ugly basketball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202102230CLE.html

Scroll down to advanced box score

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:
Well do you really think Sexton was really bothered by potential traps prior to getting to the NBA? He's always been able to just use his natural ability to defeat opponents and he's now finding that not only are their a lot of people on the same level, they also play a lot smarter to prevent what he's good at. I've noticed that he's started pulling up for his amazing midrange shot a lot more often lately than just blindly driving through all of the defenders trying to close up the paint as well.

Also LoL at using the +/- argument when Sexton is normally the one that has to try and carry the B team offensively while Garland gets to benefit from playing with the A team the majority of the time. Also for your 17 and 8 on meh shooting, Sexton put up 29 and 5 on great shooting. Based on BPM Garland was a -12.6, worst on the team, while Sexton was a -4.2

That's not what the box score states.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/boxscore/NBA_20210223_ATL@CLE/

Sexton added 8 points at the line while he and Trae were turning the game into a cheap foul contest. Don't get me wrong, if that's how the game is being called, he should do it, but it's ugly basketball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202102230CLE.html

Scroll down to advanced box score

Here's how they're defining their "advanced" box score number

"BPM -- Box Plus/Minus
A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team."

You'd agree with me that the estimate is far more speculative than the actual +/- that occurred on the court? Especially if you're estimating based on a single game?

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:
I purposely put Garland instead Sexton as jbk is always dismissing anything Sexton does as "exceptions" while forgiving all the bad that Garland does and as expected you see the response. Also he was responding because it was actually Sexton that made the pass that Garland obviously, pretty sure he realized what I was trying to say and couldn't resist.

Yes, I assumed it was sarcasm because it wasn't exactly subtle. Sexton has learned that he handles traps poorly and got rid of the ball when he saw one coming. It's a step in the right direction but how you beat a trap is something you get taught in high school and it's a bit telling that people are taking victory laps because he passed the ball instead of turning it over in that situation.

As far as Garland's *rough game* he went for 17 and 8 on meh shooting, but he was also the only starter with a positive +/-. I do agree that they both play better when they play separately. I've believed that for two years now. They're both poor defenders and having two of them out there as starters appears very much to be a hole to deep to get out of.

Well do you really think Sexton was really bothered by potential traps prior to getting to the NBA? He's always been able to just use his natural ability to defeat opponents and he's now finding that not only are their a lot of people on the same level, they also play a lot smarter to prevent what he's good at. I've noticed that he's started pulling up for his amazing midrange shot a lot more often lately than just blindly driving through all of the defenders trying to close up the paint as well.

Also LoL at using the +/- argument when Sexton is normally the one that has to try and carry the B team offensively while Garland gets to benefit from playing with the A team the majority of the time. Also for your 17 and 8 on meh shooting, Sexton put up 29 and 5 on great shooting. Based on BPM Garland was a -12.6, worst on the team, while Sexton was a -4.2

Our rotations and level of play have been all over the map this season, and not having a backup PG on the roster hurts Collin. But it's all iffy when the players expected to fill in the gaps are at this point all borderline NBA players.

But both Garland and Sexton need to cut out the stupid turnovers.

BPM is just telling you that Collin filled the boxscore better than Darius, but not actually very well (-4.2 is still bad).

Stephens and Windler are the two players in the game who contributed productively in terms of box score stats and +/-. Is it just that those two had good games? Or are they giving us something our lineups had been lacking?

Oh, like effort and making shots.

jbk1234 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
That's not what the box score states.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/boxscore/NBA_20210223_ATL@CLE/

Sexton added 8 points at the line while he and Trae were turning the game into a cheap foul contest. Don't get me wrong, if that's how the game is being called, he should do it, but it's ugly basketball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202102230CLE.html

Scroll down to advanced box score

Here's how they're defining their "advanced" box score number

"BPM -- Box Plus/Minus
A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team."

You'd agree with me that the estimate is far more speculative than the actual +/- that occurred on the court? Especially if you're estimating based on a single game?

They're really two different things because BPM is trying to estimate how much an individual player contributed based on box-score stats, whereas +/- is the actual/measurable performance of the team when an individual was on the floor.

So, Collin had better box score stats, but the team performed better when Darius was on the floor. Both can be misleading if you're trying to make measure individual contribution, but the bottom line in my book is always going to be team performance.

Speaking of, Collin has actually improved his net +/- quite a bit this season and of our active players he has the highest on-court +/- (unless you count Windler who's rising). The problem is that number is -7.8 pp100 which is terrible.

That's why personally, while I love the +/- stat, I haven't been bringing it up much and have been focused on the need to get players healthy, fill our holes, and get our rotations settled down. Even the best smelling piece of poo is still poo.