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Tank watch

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Tank watch 

Post#1 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:32 am

So we're currently at No. 5. I suspect that when it's all said and done, we're going to regret those two Ws against the Rockets. Both they and the Magic appear to have pulled the plug on the season.

The Wolves and Pistons aren't catchable.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#2 » by JonFromVA » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:23 am

No regrets. We need more wins or there will be a strong temptation to push reset on the team and try again.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#3 » by Stillwater » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:07 pm

Allen was humiliated last night against Hayes Adams Zion etc. He missed DGs lobs for sure and I think it is possible that alone brings somebody like Mobley back into the mix for the Cavs if Cade is off the board.
There were a lot of reasons for it outside of his own play though like Nance and Love being extremely ineffective in their first games back, Sexton just hunting shots like usual (clearly the plan by JBB) and nobody else stepping up and making plays or hitting shots in any rhythm at all.
I am higher on the upside of somebody like Kuminga who by all accounts sans his shooting from range is my 2nd best prospect after Cade with his ability to score everywhere else and is a solid playmaker with a nice bbiq and elite hops. But he aint Cade IQ nobody is except maybe Suggs who only makes sense if one of the 2 guards is moved.
Or maybe this team gets teir head out of the ass and makes the play in game... then they can draft Isaiah Todd or sim
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#4 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:44 pm

JonFromVA wrote:No regrets. We need more wins or there will be a strong temptation to push reset on the team and try again.
I'm not sure what reset even means here. We have two players on the roster who I'd identify as true core players. Another four or five I'd be reluctant to part with unless the trade was lopsided in the Cavs favor. That's on a 15 person roster.

Internal growth and development are important. This is the first year Windler and Okoro are playing in the NBA. You're seeing some growth out of Sexton, and more so Garland. Wade looks like he could become a good backup.

But this team needs more high end talent and the easiest way, perhaps the only way in the near future, to get it, is getting into the top 5 this year's draft.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#5 » by JonFromVA » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:15 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:No regrets. We need more wins or there will be a strong temptation to push reset on the team and try again.
I'm not sure what reset even means here. We have two players on the roster who I'd identify as true core players. Another four or five I'd be reluctant to part with unless the trade was lopsided in the Cavs favor. That's on a 15 person roster.

Internal growth and development are important. This is the first year Windler and Okoro are playing in the NBA. You're seeing some growth out of Sexton, and more so Garland. Wade looks like he could become a good backup.

But this team needs more high end talent and the easiest way, perhaps the only way in the near future, to get it is getting into the top 5 this year's draft.


There's talent throughout the draft, the question is whether we can identify it. The way Stillwater bemoans the loss of KPJ, apparently we can do quite well with even the last pick in the draft.

But there is something worse than hopping on the "treadmill of mediocrity" and that's to tank year after year, throwing away the talent you collect before they've had a chance to figure out how to contribute and before they really develop any trade value.

On the flip side, there's the situation where the team feels they've seen enough good from their young core and makes "all in" moves before the team is ready; but I think we're ok in that regard.

As for the easiest way to add high-end talent?

We've got 3 lottery picks in the past 3 years, and we're still unsure any of them are any better than Jarrett Allen who we got for scraps. The other player with positive value on the team is Larry Nance Jr, and we gave up the pick that was used to draft Mo Wagner to obtain him. The only actual high-end talent we've drafted since James inspite of numerous lottery picks was Kyrie and that was again a draft pick we got from the Clippers because we were willing to to help them get Baron Davis off the team.

Developing 19 year olds is more often than not a long/slow/expensive process. We need to focus on that, not tanking, and we'll get what we deserve.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#6 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:18 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:No regrets. We need more wins or there will be a strong temptation to push reset on the team and try again.
I'm not sure what reset even means here. We have two players on the roster who I'd identify as true core players. Another four or five I'd be reluctant to part with unless the trade was lopsided in the Cavs favor. That's on a 15 person roster.

Internal growth and development are important. This is the first year Windler and Okoro are playing in the NBA. You're seeing some growth out of Sexton, and more so Garland. Wade looks like he could become a good backup.

But this team needs more high end talent and the easiest way, perhaps the only way in the near future, to get it is getting into the top 5 this year's draft.


There's talent throughout the draft, the question is whether we can identify it. The way Stillwater bemoans the loss of KPJ, apparently we can do quite well with even the last pick in the draft.

But there is something worse than hopping on the "treadmill of mediocrity" and that's to tank year after year, throwing away the talent you collect before they've had a chance to figure out how to contribute and before they really develop any trade value.

On the flip side, there's the situation where the team feels they've seen enough good from their young core and makes "all in" moves before the team is ready; but I think we're ok in that regard.

As for the easiest way to add high-end talent?

We've got 3 lottery picks in the past 3 years, and we're still unsure any of them are any better than Jarrett Allen who we got for scraps. The other player with positive value on the team is Larry Nance Jr, and we gave up the pick that was used to draft Mo Wagner to obtain him. The only actual high-end talent we've drafted since James inspite of numerous lottery picks was Kyrie and that was again a draft pick we got from the Clippers because we were willing to to help them get Baron Davis off the team.

Developing 19 year olds is more often than not a long/slow/expensive process. We need to focus on that, not tanking, and we'll get what we deserve.
As far as this draft, the consensus seems to be that it's better than most, particularly the top 5. I've read that no one drafted in the top 5 last year would go top 5 in this one.

As far as tanking versus development, it's possible to do both. Frankly, it won't be that difficult given where we're at. It's not like we're giving minutes to young players at the expense of better vets.

Love started and he wasn't even in game shape last night. Nance is ahead of Wade on the depth chart. The only argument you could make is Cedi over Okoro, and given how streaky Cedi is offensively, it wouldn't be a particularly good argument.

So the real question is given where we are now, with less than half a season left to play, is there any point in trades that make us better immediately but hurts our draft position? Is there any point in parting with potential trade pieces that could be used to move up in that draft? I think the answer should be no.

During the last rebuild, we signed Livingston, traded for Speights, Ellington, and Walton in a Grizzlies salary dump. Our bench went from one of the worst in the NBA to one of the best. Most of those guys were gone in a year and the Cavs were barely any better the following season.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#7 » by JonFromVA » Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:54 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm not sure what reset even means here. We have two players on the roster who I'd identify as true core players. Another four or five I'd be reluctant to part with unless the trade was lopsided in the Cavs favor. That's on a 15 person roster.

Internal growth and development are important. This is the first year Windler and Okoro are playing in the NBA. You're seeing some growth out of Sexton, and more so Garland. Wade looks like he could become a good backup.

But this team needs more high end talent and the easiest way, perhaps the only way in the near future, to get it is getting into the top 5 this year's draft.


There's talent throughout the draft, the question is whether we can identify it. The way Stillwater bemoans the loss of KPJ, apparently we can do quite well with even the last pick in the draft.

But there is something worse than hopping on the "treadmill of mediocrity" and that's to tank year after year, throwing away the talent you collect before they've had a chance to figure out how to contribute and before they really develop any trade value.

On the flip side, there's the situation where the team feels they've seen enough good from their young core and makes "all in" moves before the team is ready; but I think we're ok in that regard.

As for the easiest way to add high-end talent?

We've got 3 lottery picks in the past 3 years, and we're still unsure any of them are any better than Jarrett Allen who we got for scraps. The other player with positive value on the team is Larry Nance Jr, and we gave up the pick that was used to draft Mo Wagner to obtain him. The only actual high-end talent we've drafted since James inspite of numerous lottery picks was Kyrie and that was again a draft pick we got from the Clippers because we were willing to to help them get Baron Davis off the team.

Developing 19 year olds is more often than not a long/slow/expensive process. We need to focus on that, not tanking, and we'll get what we deserve.
As far as this draft, the consensus seems to be that it's better than most, particularly the top 5. I've read that no one drafted in the top 5 last year would go top 5 in this one.

As far as tanking versus development, it's possible to do both. Frankly, it won't be that difficult given where we're at. It's not like we're giving minutes to young players at the expense of better vets.

Love started and he wasn't even in game shape last night. Nance is ahead of Wade on the depth chart. The only argument you could make is Cedi over Okoro, and given how streaky Cedi is offensively, it wouldn't be a particularly good argument.

So the real question is given where we are now, with less than half a season left to play, is there any point in trades that make us better immediately but hurts our draft position? Is there any point in parting with potential trade pieces that could be used to move up in that draft? I think the answer should be no.

During the last rebuild, we signed Livingston, traded for Speights, Ellington, and Walton in a Grizzlies salary dump. Our bench went from one of the worst in the NBA to one of the best. Most of those guys were gone in a year and the Cavs were barely any better the following season.


All I'm looking for at this point is a viable backup PG and just maybe Quinn Cook can get that done, albeit we'd prefer someone who can defend SGs too.

Satoransky might fit the bill if he becomes available.

And then like I keep saying we'll get what we deserve out of the draft give or take the ping pong balls.

But we've heard drafts talked up before then fall flat, and we've seen shallow drafts turn out to be pretty deep. I mean may we be so lucky as to get stuck drafting the next Giannis rather than the next Drama King
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#8 » by jbk1234 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:06 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
There's talent throughout the draft, the question is whether we can identify it. The way Stillwater bemoans the loss of KPJ, apparently we can do quite well with even the last pick in the draft.

But there is something worse than hopping on the "treadmill of mediocrity" and that's to tank year after year, throwing away the talent you collect before they've had a chance to figure out how to contribute and before they really develop any trade value.

On the flip side, there's the situation where the team feels they've seen enough good from their young core and makes "all in" moves before the team is ready; but I think we're ok in that regard.

As for the easiest way to add high-end talent?

We've got 3 lottery picks in the past 3 years, and we're still unsure any of them are any better than Jarrett Allen who we got for scraps. The other player with positive value on the team is Larry Nance Jr, and we gave up the pick that was used to draft Mo Wagner to obtain him. The only actual high-end talent we've drafted since James inspite of numerous lottery picks was Kyrie and that was again a draft pick we got from the Clippers because we were willing to to help them get Baron Davis off the team.

Developing 19 year olds is more often than not a long/slow/expensive process. We need to focus on that, not tanking, and we'll get what we deserve.
As far as this draft, the consensus seems to be that it's better than most, particularly the top 5. I've read that no one drafted in the top 5 last year would go top 5 in this one.

As far as tanking versus development, it's possible to do both. Frankly, it won't be that difficult given where we're at. It's not like we're giving minutes to young players at the expense of better vets.

Love started and he wasn't even in game shape last night. Nance is ahead of Wade on the depth chart. The only argument you could make is Cedi over Okoro, and given how streaky Cedi is offensively, it wouldn't be a particularly good argument.

So the real question is given where we are now, with less than half a season left to play, is there any point in trades that make us better immediately but hurts our draft position? Is there any point in parting with potential trade pieces that could be used to move up in that draft? I think the answer should be no.

During the last rebuild, we signed Livingston, traded for Speights, Ellington, and Walton in a Grizzlies salary dump. Our bench went from one of the worst in the NBA to one of the best. Most of those guys were gone in a year and the Cavs were barely any better the following season.


All I'm looking for at this point is a viable backup PG and just maybe Quinn Cook can get that done, albeit we'd prefer someone who can defend SGs too.

Satoransky might fit the bill if he becomes available.

And then like I keep saying we'll get what we deserve out of the draft give or take the ping pong balls.

But we've heard drafts talked up before then fall flat, and we've seen shallow drafts turn out to be pretty deep. I mean may we be so lucky as to get stuck drafting the next Giannis rather than the next Drama King
I'd do McGee for Austin Rivers and call it a day.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#9 » by Stillwater » Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:38 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
There's talent throughout the draft, the question is whether we can identify it. The way Stillwater bemoans the loss of KPJ, apparently we can do quite well with even the last pick in the draft.

But there is something worse than hopping on the "treadmill of mediocrity" and that's to tank year after year, throwing away the talent you collect before they've had a chance to figure out how to contribute and before they really develop any trade value.

On the flip side, there's the situation where the team feels they've seen enough good from their young core and makes "all in" moves before the team is ready; but I think we're ok in that regard.

As for the easiest way to add high-end talent?

We've got 3 lottery picks in the past 3 years, and we're still unsure any of them are any better than Jarrett Allen who we got for scraps. The other player with positive value on the team is Larry Nance Jr, and we gave up the pick that was used to draft Mo Wagner to obtain him. The only actual high-end talent we've drafted since James inspite of numerous lottery picks was Kyrie and that was again a draft pick we got from the Clippers because we were willing to to help them get Baron Davis off the team.

Developing 19 year olds is more often than not a long/slow/expensive process. We need to focus on that, not tanking, and we'll get what we deserve.
As far as this draft, the consensus seems to be that it's better than most, particularly the top 5. I've read that no one drafted in the top 5 last year would go top 5 in this one.

As far as tanking versus development, it's possible to do both. Frankly, it won't be that difficult given where we're at. It's not like we're giving minutes to young players at the expense of better vets.

Love started and he wasn't even in game shape last night. Nance is ahead of Wade on the depth chart. The only argument you could make is Cedi over Okoro, and given how streaky Cedi is offensively, it wouldn't be a particularly good argument.

So the real question is given where we are now, with less than half a season left to play, is there any point in trades that make us better immediately but hurts our draft position? Is there any point in parting with potential trade pieces that could be used to move up in that draft? I think the answer should be no.

During the last rebuild, we signed Livingston, traded for Speights, Ellington, and Walton in a Grizzlies salary dump. Our bench went from one of the worst in the NBA to one of the best. Most of those guys were gone in a year and the Cavs were barely any better the following season.


All I'm looking for at this point is a viable backup PG and just maybe Quinn Cook can get that done, albeit we'd prefer someone who can defend SGs too.

Satoransky might fit the bill if he becomes available.

And then like I keep saying we'll get what we deserve out of the draft give or take the ping pong balls.

But we've heard drafts talked up before then fall flat, and we've seen shallow drafts turn out to be pretty deep. I mean may we be so lucky as to get stuck drafting the next Giannis rather than the next Drama King

You cannot really believe that there will ever be another Giannis that falls that far do you? nobody passes on players based on competition level anymore
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#10 » by JonFromVA » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:07 am

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:As far as this draft, the consensus seems to be that it's better than most, particularly the top 5. I've read that no one drafted in the top 5 last year would go top 5 in this one.

As far as tanking versus development, it's possible to do both. Frankly, it won't be that difficult given where we're at. It's not like we're giving minutes to young players at the expense of better vets.

Love started and he wasn't even in game shape last night. Nance is ahead of Wade on the depth chart. The only argument you could make is Cedi over Okoro, and given how streaky Cedi is offensively, it wouldn't be a particularly good argument.

So the real question is given where we are now, with less than half a season left to play, is there any point in trades that make us better immediately but hurts our draft position? Is there any point in parting with potential trade pieces that could be used to move up in that draft? I think the answer should be no.

During the last rebuild, we signed Livingston, traded for Speights, Ellington, and Walton in a Grizzlies salary dump. Our bench went from one of the worst in the NBA to one of the best. Most of those guys were gone in a year and the Cavs were barely any better the following season.


All I'm looking for at this point is a viable backup PG and just maybe Quinn Cook can get that done, albeit we'd prefer someone who can defend SGs too.

Satoransky might fit the bill if he becomes available.

And then like I keep saying we'll get what we deserve out of the draft give or take the ping pong balls.

But we've heard drafts talked up before then fall flat, and we've seen shallow drafts turn out to be pretty deep. I mean may we be so lucky as to get stuck drafting the next Giannis rather than the next Drama King

You cannot really believe that there will ever be another Giannis that falls that far do you? nobody passes on players based on competition level anymore


The one constant is NBA GMs will miss something ...
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:51 am

We're at 24 losses, and that's fine.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#12 » by toooskies » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:24 pm

Stillwater wrote:You cannot really believe that there will ever be another Giannis that falls that far do you? nobody passes on players based on competition level anymore


Here's the list of all-stars taken outside the top 5 on their original teams: Giannis, Steph Curry, Jokic, Gobert, Mitchell, Lillard, Sabonis, Booker. (Paul George, Lavine, Vucevic on another team.) (Edit: Randle on another team too.)

The list of all-stars taken inside the top 5 on their original teams: Brad Beal and a bunch of young guys.

Seems like a lot of talent falls out of the top 5. The top of the draft is all "find the next superstar" territory, but the problem is, a superstar only gets you to the middle from the bottom-- ask Kobe after Shaq left, or DWade after Shaq left, or Kyrie before Lebron came, or Beal now. And if you don't build the rest of the roster quickly to a championship favorite, they leave. (Sometimes they leave anyway.)

Better to develop a middling team with stars, sign or trade for an unhappy superstar, when they leave you're back to a middling team. Toronto is a more realistic path to our next title than Philly-- we don't have Philly's cap space or lottery luck that they had with The Process, unless we keep bottoming out for another 3 years.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#13 » by Stillwater » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:25 pm

^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#14 » by jbk1234 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:24 pm

Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far
Poku looks like a borderline NBA player. Top 10 in the G league maybe.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#15 » by toooskies » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:56 pm

Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far

So first, you assume that finding and identifying the generational upside player at the top of the draft is easy. Not really! Here's the list of league MVPs since 2001 who went #1 overall: LeBron, Tim Duncan, Derrick Rose. Here's the list of #1 picks who won championships without changing teams since 2001: Kyrie, Tim Duncan (Zion, Simmons, Ayton might join them, although Zion is the only true generational upside guy). There's some other interesting names, but building your team from the draft is just a way to make bad teams feel better about losing.

But there's no point in believing a generational talent will stay in Cleveland anyway. Kyrie forced his way out. LeBron left twice. Anthony Davis forced his way out. Dwight Howard was going to leave, so he was traded.

So bottoming out and building with a generational talent has a very, very, very low chance of working out. They're... LeBron coming back kind of odds.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:19 pm

toooskies wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far

So first, you assume that finding and identifying the generational upside player at the top of the draft is easy. Not really! Here's the list of league MVPs since 2001 who went #1 overall: LeBron, Tim Duncan, Derrick Rose. Here's the list of #1 picks who won championships without changing teams since 2001: Kyrie, Tim Duncan (Zion, Simmons, Ayton might join them, although Zion is the only true generational upside guy). There's some other interesting names, but building your team from the draft is just a way to make bad teams feel better about losing.

But there's no point in believing a generational talent will stay in Cleveland anyway. Kyrie forced his way out. LeBron left twice. Anthony Davis forced his way out. Dwight Howard was going to leave, so he was traded.

So bottoming out and building with a generational talent has a very, very, very low chance of working out. They're... LeBron coming back kind of odds.
You don't need generational talent, but you do need top end talent. I'd rather try to build around a guy like Morant or Doncic, then build a team around Sexton. You need a cornerstone and right now we don't have one. Worrying about that player leaving seven or eight years after he's drafted is one of those good problems to have.

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#17 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:30 pm

toooskies wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far

So first, you assume that finding and identifying the generational upside player at the top of the draft is easy. Not really! Here's the list of league MVPs since 2001 who went #1 overall: LeBron, Tim Duncan, Derrick Rose. Here's the list of #1 picks who won championships without changing teams since 2001: Kyrie, Tim Duncan (Zion, Simmons, Ayton might join them, although Zion is the only true generational upside guy). There's some other interesting names, but building your team from the draft is just a way to make bad teams feel better about losing.

But there's no point in believing a generational talent will stay in Cleveland anyway. Kyrie forced his way out. LeBron left twice. Anthony Davis forced his way out. Dwight Howard was going to leave, so he was traded.

So bottoming out and building with a generational talent has a very, very, very low chance of working out. They're... LeBron coming back kind of odds.


Terrific posts, and I'd add that Kyrie wasn't taken with our own draft pick.

Worth noting that out of the top 10 MVP candidates (according to BBR), there are 5 top-3 picks and 5 taken no higher than 6:

That's Embiid, Harden, James, Irving, and Doncic

.vs.

Jokic, Antetokonumpo, Lillard, Leonard, and Gobert

The fact we drafted two of those players and neither are still with the team points to a major problem we need to figure out.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#18 » by Stillwater » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:40 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far
Poku looks like a borderline NBA player. Top 10 in the G league maybe.

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right for now that is what you see...basing only on proof of production and stats and competition. This is why Giannis was slept on putting up ridiculous stats against nobodies.
I dont think Poku is a generational player but I do for example think he will be a much more impactful player than 1 of our 6' guards ever will be once he reaches his ceiling of course the argument there is he probably wont etc etc.
At the end of the day most gms suck at developing players that dont come into the league with elite work ethics like Sexton or are already extremely skilled like Melo
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#19 » by Stillwater » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:47 pm

toooskies wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far

So first, you assume that finding and identifying the generational upside player at the top of the draft is easy. Not really! Here's the list of league MVPs since 2001 who went #1 overall: LeBron, Tim Duncan, Derrick Rose. Here's the list of #1 picks who won championships without changing teams since 2001: Kyrie, Tim Duncan (Zion, Simmons, Ayton might join them, although Zion is the only true generational upside guy). There's some other interesting names, but building your team from the draft is just a way to make bad teams feel better about losing.

But there's no point in believing a generational talent will stay in Cleveland anyway. Kyrie forced his way out. LeBron left twice. Anthony Davis forced his way out. Dwight Howard was going to leave, so he was traded.

So bottoming out and building with a generational talent has a very, very, very low chance of working out. They're... LeBron coming back kind of odds.

You dont follow what I am suggesting at all here. Nobody thought Giannis was going to be this good because of the prejudice used in scouting for decades regarding players in weak leagues no matter how dominant they were. That sentiment has changed since him falling so far and there is no way anyone will pass on somebody with that baseline archetype if there ever is another one that has nothing to do with the difficulty you have assessing prospects. For example, everyone thought Ja and Zion were the best players from the draft and as of right now they clearly were... in seasons previously Ja would have fallen 10 spots playing at Murray state
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#20 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
Stillwater wrote:^ I hear you ...How to build a contender and finding talent are one thing but the point i was making is there are zero generation leading potential prospects that will likely ever fall outside the top 10 just based on poor competition like why greek freak slid.
Of course we are already seeing poku look like a top 10 prospect but he isnt a generational upside player .
Cavs can get something in the mid late lottery if they actually knew how to scout not sold they do and just have been lucky Sextons game has come so far

So first, you assume that finding and identifying the generational upside player at the top of the draft is easy. Not really! Here's the list of league MVPs since 2001 who went #1 overall: LeBron, Tim Duncan, Derrick Rose. Here's the list of #1 picks who won championships without changing teams since 2001: Kyrie, Tim Duncan (Zion, Simmons, Ayton might join them, although Zion is the only true generational upside guy). There's some other interesting names, but building your team from the draft is just a way to make bad teams feel better about losing.

But there's no point in believing a generational talent will stay in Cleveland anyway. Kyrie forced his way out. LeBron left twice. Anthony Davis forced his way out. Dwight Howard was going to leave, so he was traded.

So bottoming out and building with a generational talent has a very, very, very low chance of working out. They're... LeBron coming back kind of odds.
You don't need generational talent, but you do need top end talent. I'd rather try to build around a guy like Morant or Doncic, then build a team around Sexton. You need a cornerstone and right now we don't have one. Worrying about that player leaving seven or eight years after he's drafted is one of those good problems to have.


We've had top picks in the past 3 years, what has sucking done for the franchise?

I look at Donovan Mitchell who experienced some success from the get go with the Jazz because he filled an immediate need on that team for scoring when Gorden Hayward left. He's had some struggles but generally has had positive value around the league, and is helping them win at a terrific rate this season.

The Cavs need to be more like that, and figure out how to play to our player's strengths rather than constantly exposing their weaknesses.

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