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Tank watch

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Re: Tank watch 

Post#81 » by Stillwater » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:44 pm

JonFromVA wrote:The Cavs's "soapboxes" as you call them have to pitch that their team is growing and improving, or they'll be replaced.

That we haven't been able to put our intended starting lineup on the floor for even one game remains our biggest impediment and from my POV, nothing else really matters.

Just as Allen is approaching his return, Sexton and Garland go down.

I was also talking about posters like you who always seem to have the orgs back and sound like an echo from the
same pr bs spoken at the fanbase as if any real clarity existed or as if anyone actually wants to hear that line.
Nobody should have to sugar coat it to make excuses for their failures as if anyone needs that to dream it's not a rebuild gone bad.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#82 » by JonFromVA » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:35 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:The Cavs's "soapboxes" as you call them have to pitch that their team is growing and improving, or they'll be replaced.

That we haven't been able to put our intended starting lineup on the floor for even one game remains our biggest impediment and from my POV, nothing else really matters.

Just as Allen is approaching his return, Sexton and Garland go down.

I was also talking about posters like you who always seem to have the orgs back and sound like an echo from the
same pr bs spoken at the fanbase as if any real clarity existed or as if anyone actually wants to hear that line.
Nobody should have to sugar coat it to make excuses for their failures as if anyone needs that to dream it's not a rebuild gone bad.


News to me ... I could swear I just suggested the entire front office should be replaced with a Magic 8-ball if the roster they've assembled couldn't beat a decimated Thunder team.

But let's face it, you're not actually interested in facts or truth that disagree with your shaky perception of reality.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#83 » by Stillwater » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:29 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:The Cavs's "soapboxes" as you call them have to pitch that their team is growing and improving, or they'll be replaced.

That we haven't been able to put our intended starting lineup on the floor for even one game remains our biggest impediment and from my POV, nothing else really matters.

Just as Allen is approaching his return, Sexton and Garland go down.

I was also talking about posters like you who always seem to have the orgs back and sound like an echo from the
same pr bs spoken at the fanbase as if any real clarity existed or as if anyone actually wants to hear that line.
Nobody should have to sugar coat it to make excuses for their failures as if anyone needs that to dream it's not a rebuild gone bad.


News to me ... I could swear I just suggested the entire front office should be replaced with a Magic 8-ball if the roster they've assembled couldn't beat a decimated Thunder team.

But let's face it, you're not actually interested in facts or truth that disagree with your shaky perception of reality.

Yeah that must be it what a fn genius
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#84 » by JonFromVA » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:43 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I was also talking about posters like you who always seem to have the orgs back and sound like an echo from the
same pr bs spoken at the fanbase as if any real clarity existed or as if anyone actually wants to hear that line.
Nobody should have to sugar coat it to make excuses for their failures as if anyone needs that to dream it's not a rebuild gone bad.


News to me ... I could swear I just suggested the entire front office should be replaced with a Magic 8-ball if the roster they've assembled couldn't beat a decimated Thunder team.

But let's face it, you're not actually interested in facts or truth that disagree with your shaky perception of reality.

Yeah that must be it what a fn genius


Sarcasm?
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#85 » by Stillwater » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:49 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
News to me ... I could swear I just suggested the entire front office should be replaced with a Magic 8-ball if the roster they've assembled couldn't beat a decimated Thunder team.

But let's face it, you're not actually interested in facts or truth that disagree with your shaky perception of reality.

Yeah that must be it what a fn genius


Sarcasm?

Mockery
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#86 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:03 pm

So, with the loss to Detroit we're just 3.5 games behind them for the 3rd worst record in the league.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#87 » by Stillwater » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:33 pm

JonFromVA wrote:So, with the loss to Detroit we're just 3.5 games behind them for the 3rd worst record in the league.

and if there is a lottery luck scenario no different than the last 2 drafts it wont matter
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#88 » by Stillwater » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:42 pm

The Cavs actually ended up having to start a rebuild in the worst case scenario timing possible right after reform kicked in.
I am so done with the draft hype bs
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#89 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:17 pm

Stillwater wrote:The Cavs actually ended up having to start a rebuild in the worst case scenario timing possible right after reform kicked in.

I am so done with the draft hype bs


Glad to hear that, because unless we get once in a generation lucky again and get to draft the next LeBron, the team's future rests far more on player evaluation, coaching/development, and savvy trades then on ping pong balls.

But this is the tank thread, and we might as well enjoy the little bright spot for losing to a team we should have been able to beat like the Pistons.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#90 » by Stillwater » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:20 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:The Cavs actually ended up having to start a rebuild in the worst case scenario timing possible right after reform kicked in.

I am so done with the draft hype bs


Glad to hear that, because unless we get once in a generation lucky again and get to draft the next LeBron, the team's future rests far more on player evaluation, coaching/development, and savvy trades then on ping pong balls.

But this is the tank thread, and we might as well enjoy the little bright spot for losing to a team we should have been able to beat like the Pistons.

They are not making any savvy trades dumping their best players for top 55 protected picks
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#91 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:17 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:The Cavs actually ended up having to start a rebuild in the worst case scenario timing possible right after reform kicked in.

I am so done with the draft hype bs


Glad to hear that, because unless we get once in a generation lucky again and get to draft the next LeBron, the team's future rests far more on player evaluation, coaching/development, and savvy trades then on ping pong balls.

But this is the tank thread, and we might as well enjoy the little bright spot for losing to a team we should have been able to beat like the Pistons.


They are not making any savvy trades dumping their best players for top 55 protected picks


Still going on about KPJ while ignoring the fact it was always his own actions which dropped his value from 30th pick in the draft to near zero around the league?

Altman (and previous Cavs GMs) have been pretty good turning Dan's willingness to absorb salary in to assets for the team; but collecting assets is just the first step of a coherent plan. The real trick will be trading the assets we have for assets that will push the team further towards contention.

It would certainly help if we were raising the value of the players we have on the roster, rather than the opposite; but that's going to be hard to do if we can't even run something like a modern offense with proper floor spacing.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#92 » by Stillwater » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:23 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Glad to hear that, because unless we get once in a generation lucky again and get to draft the next LeBron, the team's future rests far more on player evaluation, coaching/development, and savvy trades then on ping pong balls.

But this is the tank thread, and we might as well enjoy the little bright spot for losing to a team we should have been able to beat like the Pistons.


They are not making any savvy trades dumping their best players for top 55 protected picks


Still going on about KPJ while ignoring the fact it was always his own actions which dropped his value from 30th pick in the draft to near zero around the league?

Altman (and previous Cavs GMs) have been pretty good turning Dan's willingness to absorb salary in to assets for the team; but collecting assets is just the first step of a coherent plan. The real trick will be trading the assets we have for assets that will push the team further towards contention.

It would certainly help if we were raising the value of the players we have on the roster, rather than the opposite; but that's going to be hard to do if we can't even run something like a modern offense with proper floor spacing.

The sooner they move on from Koby Altman the better off they will be at this point imo
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#93 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:44 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
They are not making any savvy trades dumping their best players for top 55 protected picks


Still going on about KPJ while ignoring the fact it was always his own actions which dropped his value from 30th pick in the draft to near zero around the league?

Altman (and previous Cavs GMs) have been pretty good turning Dan's willingness to absorb salary in to assets for the team; but collecting assets is just the first step of a coherent plan. The real trick will be trading the assets we have for assets that will push the team further towards contention.

It would certainly help if we were raising the value of the players we have on the roster, rather than the opposite; but that's going to be hard to do if we can't even run something like a modern offense with proper floor spacing.

The sooner they move on from Koby Altman the better off they will be at this point imo


That all depends what they replace him with ... after all, at least Altman is learning on the job and has a few years of experience; but until we can shed the perception that the Cavs GM is little more than a yes-man we're going to struggle to recruit qualified candidates.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#94 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:01 pm

Honestly, Mobley is really the only guy in this draft that I'm excited about.

I think Suggs benefitted greatly in that he was surrounded by great shooters on Gonzaga. I don't see him as an upgrade over Garland.

Cade doesn't have a first step. I'm okay if a player doesn't have elite athleticism, but if you can't beat your man off the dribble in college, that's not a good sign.

Kuminga can't shoot and I seriously have no idea how tall he is at this point. NBC just said he's 6'8" which I know isn't true. I've seen him listed as anywhere between 6'5" to 6'8" and there's a pretty substantial difference between those two measurements.

If Green is truly 6'5", and really projects out to a two-way guard, then there's a scenario where I can see drafting him but one of Sexton or Okoro would need to get traded and then it's kind of difficult to find a trade that works where the Cavs wouldn't take the L.

Obviously it's better to get the higher pick and be in a position to trade back, but Mobley is the only guy who if still on the board, I feel good enough about to take and figure the rest out later.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#95 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:14 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Honestly, Mobley is really the only guy in this draft that I'm excited about.

I think Suggs benefitted greatly in that he was surrounded by great shooters on Gonzaga. I don't see him as an upgrade over Garland.

Cade doesn't have a first step. I'm okay if a player doesn't have elite athleticism, but if you can't beat your man off the dribble in college, that's not a good sign.

Kuminga can't shoot and I seriously have no idea how tall he is at this point. NBC just said he's 6'8" which I know isn't true. I've seen him listed as anywhere between 6'5" to 6'8" and there's a pretty substantial difference between those two measurements.

If Green is truly 6'5", and really projects out to a two-way guard, then there's a scenario where I can see drafting him but one of Sexton or Okoro would need to get traded and then it's kind of difficult to find a trade that works where the Cavs wouldn't take the L.

Obviously it's better to get the higher pick and be in a position to trade back, but Mobley is the only guy who if still on the board, I feel good enough about to take and figure the rest out later.


I don't bother to watch much College videos until after the lottery.

No sense even bothering to imagine how a player like Cade would look unless we win the thing, but there's a lot of ways to get a step on a defender without having to beat them out of an ISO, and we have a pair of guards who can get in to the paint at will.

If we end up at #2, though, Mobley seems like an easy pick.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#96 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:37 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Honestly, Mobley is really the only guy in this draft that I'm excited about.

I think Suggs benefitted greatly in that he was surrounded by great shooters on Gonzaga. I don't see him as an upgrade over Garland.

Cade doesn't have a first step. I'm okay if a player doesn't have elite athleticism, but if you can't beat your man off the dribble in college, that's not a good sign.

Kuminga can't shoot and I seriously have no idea how tall he is at this point. NBC just said he's 6'8" which I know isn't true. I've seen him listed as anywhere between 6'5" to 6'8" and there's a pretty substantial difference between those two measurements.

If Green is truly 6'5", and really projects out to a two-way guard, then there's a scenario where I can see drafting him but one of Sexton or Okoro would need to get traded and then it's kind of difficult to find a trade that works where the Cavs wouldn't take the L.

Obviously it's better to get the higher pick and be in a position to trade back, but Mobley is the only guy who if still on the board, I feel good enough about to take and figure the rest out later.


I don't bother to watch much College videos until after the lottery.

No sense even bothering to imagine how a player like Cade would look unless we win the thing, but there's a lot of ways to get a step on a defender without having to beat them out of an ISO, and we have a pair of guards who can get in to the paint at will.

If we end up at #2, though, Mobley seems like an easy pick.

One thing I have learned over the years is assuming anyone is a lock for the # 1 pick unless there is an obvious clear head and shoulders polarizing prospect like Lebron and to some extent Zion or maybe you could argue Kyrie at the time is not advisable.
Cade Cunningham is not by any means the lock to go #1 anymore than nobody having Kuminga ranked there despite having the highest upside of all the prospects projected in the the top 10.
I dont like most of the prospects in this draft as fits for the Cavs without trades tbh as none of them are very proven in any respect.
I would be just as content with the 24 yr old Damion Mitchell as I would be with Suggs for example if they were going to just take a high floor guard.
I think they will take the wrong player based on need over individual upside if they are anywhere in the top 5. After that it probably wont matter who they take fit or not.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#97 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:02 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Honestly, Mobley is really the only guy in this draft that I'm excited about.

I think Suggs benefitted greatly in that he was surrounded by great shooters on Gonzaga. I don't see him as an upgrade over Garland.

Cade doesn't have a first step. I'm okay if a player doesn't have elite athleticism, but if you can't beat your man off the dribble in college, that's not a good sign.

Kuminga can't shoot and I seriously have no idea how tall he is at this point. NBC just said he's 6'8" which I know isn't true. I've seen him listed as anywhere between 6'5" to 6'8" and there's a pretty substantial difference between those two measurements.

If Green is truly 6'5", and really projects out to a two-way guard, then there's a scenario where I can see drafting him but one of Sexton or Okoro would need to get traded and then it's kind of difficult to find a trade that works where the Cavs wouldn't take the L.

Obviously it's better to get the higher pick and be in a position to trade back, but Mobley is the only guy who if still on the board, I feel good enough about to take and figure the rest out later.


I don't bother to watch much College videos until after the lottery.

No sense even bothering to imagine how a player like Cade would look unless we win the thing, but there's a lot of ways to get a step on a defender without having to beat them out of an ISO, and we have a pair of guards who can get in to the paint at will.

If we end up at #2, though, Mobley seems like an easy pick.

One thing I have learned over the years is assuming anyone is a lock for the # 1 pick unless there is an obvious clear head and shoulders polarizing prospect like Lebron and to some extent Zion or maybe you could argue Kyrie at the time is not advisable.
Cade Cunningham is not by any means the lock to go #1 anymore than nobody having Kuminga ranked there despite having the highest upside of all the prospects projected in the the top 10.
I dont like most of the prospects in this draft as fits for the Cavs without trades tbh as none of them are very proven in any respect.
I would be just as content with the 24 yr old Damion Mitchell as I would be with Suggs for example if they were going to just take a high floor guard.
I think they will take the wrong player based on need over individual upside if they are anywhere in the top 5. After that it probably wont matter who they take fit or not.


It would be disappointing that Cade doesn't check every box (if we win the lottery), but It's hard for me to imagine an NBA GM passing on a freshman putting up 20 ppg with efficiency let alone with defense, court vision, and play-making potential.

Of course Derrick Rose was taken #1 ahead of Mike Beasley #2 and that turned out to be the right call ... by a lot ... but Beasley had some character red-flags and was considered bad on D.

And while I doubt NBA scouts are too confused about these players actual measurements, having two lottery picks coming from the G-League is something new for evaluators to try to interpret and translate.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#98 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:49 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I don't bother to watch much College videos until after the lottery.

No sense even bothering to imagine how a player like Cade would look unless we win the thing, but there's a lot of ways to get a step on a defender without having to beat them out of an ISO, and we have a pair of guards who can get in to the paint at will.

If we end up at #2, though, Mobley seems like an easy pick.

One thing I have learned over the years is assuming anyone is a lock for the # 1 pick unless there is an obvious clear head and shoulders polarizing prospect like Lebron and to some extent Zion or maybe you could argue Kyrie at the time is not advisable.
Cade Cunningham is not by any means the lock to go #1 anymore than nobody having Kuminga ranked there despite having the highest upside of all the prospects projected in the the top 10.
I dont like most of the prospects in this draft as fits for the Cavs without trades tbh as none of them are very proven in any respect.
I would be just as content with the 24 yr old Damion Mitchell as I would be with Suggs for example if they were going to just take a high floor guard.
I think they will take the wrong player based on need over individual upside if they are anywhere in the top 5. After that it probably wont matter who they take fit or not.


It would be disappointing that Cade doesn't check every box (if we win the lottery), but It's hard for me to imagine an NBA GM passing on a freshman putting up 20 ppg with efficiency let alone with defense, court vision, and play-making potential.

Of course Derrick Rose was taken #1 ahead of Mike Beasley #2 and that turned out to be the right call ... by a lot ... but Beasley had some character red-flags and was considered bad on D.

And while I doubt NBA scouts are too confused about these players actual measurements, having two lottery picks coming from the G-League is something new for evaluators to try to interpret and translate.

The likes of Green Kuminga and also Isaiah Todd and Nix were all 5 star prospects that have been highly recruited.There is really no question every one of them is high upside by NBA standards. ust how long a franchise wants to wait is another story
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#99 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:53 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:One thing I have learned over the years is assuming anyone is a lock for the # 1 pick unless there is an obvious clear head and shoulders polarizing prospect like Lebron and to some extent Zion or maybe you could argue Kyrie at the time is not advisable.
Cade Cunningham is not by any means the lock to go #1 anymore than nobody having Kuminga ranked there despite having the highest upside of all the prospects projected in the the top 10.
I dont like most of the prospects in this draft as fits for the Cavs without trades tbh as none of them are very proven in any respect.
I would be just as content with the 24 yr old Damion Mitchell as I would be with Suggs for example if they were going to just take a high floor guard.
I think they will take the wrong player based on need over individual upside if they are anywhere in the top 5. After that it probably wont matter who they take fit or not.


It would be disappointing that Cade doesn't check every box (if we win the lottery), but It's hard for me to imagine an NBA GM passing on a freshman putting up 20 ppg with efficiency let alone with defense, court vision, and play-making potential.

Of course Derrick Rose was taken #1 ahead of Mike Beasley #2 and that turned out to be the right call ... by a lot ... but Beasley had some character red-flags and was considered bad on D.

And while I doubt NBA scouts are too confused about these players actual measurements, having two lottery picks coming from the G-League is something new for evaluators to try to interpret and translate.

The likes of Green Kuminga and also Isaiah Todd and Nix were all 5 star prospects that have been highly recruited.There is really no question every one of them is high upside by NBA standards. ust how long a franchise wants to wait is another story


Of course, not every player is ready to drop 20ppg with efficiency as an 18yr old playing against bigger/stronger players, but those who do are typically going to include the basketball prodigies who are expected to be far ahead of their peers at any level.

The players going straight to the G-League is something new, but I would expect a high-level 18 year old to do very well against that level of competition *if* they're physically far enough along and their skills/abilities are highly advanced.

There are also ton of reasons why a GM/organization would prefer to draft a 19 year old that's not going to take a few years just to show they belong in the league. The Cavs are at a point in their rebuild where they would benefit from drafting a more NBA ready prospect themselves, so, this may be a factor even if they fall somewhere in the draft where they might have the opportunity to take a raw prospect like Kuminga.
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Re: Tank watch 

Post#100 » by Stillwater » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:24 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
It would be disappointing that Cade doesn't check every box (if we win the lottery), but It's hard for me to imagine an NBA GM passing on a freshman putting up 20 ppg with efficiency let alone with defense, court vision, and play-making potential.

Of course Derrick Rose was taken #1 ahead of Mike Beasley #2 and that turned out to be the right call ... by a lot ... but Beasley had some character red-flags and was considered bad on D.

And while I doubt NBA scouts are too confused about these players actual measurements, having two lottery picks coming from the G-League is something new for evaluators to try to interpret and translate.

The likes of Green Kuminga and also Isaiah Todd and Nix were all 5 star prospects that have been highly recruited.There is really no question every one of them is high upside by NBA standards. ust how long a franchise wants to wait is another story


Of course, not every player is ready to drop 20ppg with efficiency as an 18yr old playing against bigger/stronger players, but those who do are typically going to include the basketball prodigies who are expected to be far ahead of their peers at any level.

The players going straight to the G-League is something new, but I would expect a high-level 18 year old to do very well against that level of competition *if* they're physically far enough along and their skills/abilities are highly advanced.

There are also ton of reasons why a GM/organization would prefer to draft a 19 year old that's not going to take a few years just to show they belong in the league. The Cavs are at a point in their rebuild where they would benefit from drafting a more NBA ready prospect themselves, so, this may be a factor even if they fall somewhere in the draft where they might have the opportunity to take a raw prospect like Kuminga.

I completely disagree that they should be fast forwarding anything . but you are probably right that is their mindset.
Kuminga is not "raw" at all though unless you want a knock down outside shooter that will average 30 a night or close to it like Sexton who wasnt a good shooter either pre draft.But I guess his outside shot struggles dont have anything to do with injuries...Kuminga has been nursing a wrist injury all season too. I really think it is funny how bad of a rep a prospect like Kuminga gets when they have excellent shooting tape mixed with tape of them chucking bad shots. This is a PF we are talking about and one that has elite Wiggins level athleticism along with Miles Bridges possibly Zion level explosiveness. He has shown a decent first step and a dribble drive that is advanced for a forward that allows him to initiate offensive sets or just attack the paint with multiple effective and basically unstoppable moves in iso.
He has the highest upside if you value physicality over shooting.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

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