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Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM

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Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#1 » by ducler » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:47 pm

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#2 » by JonFromVA » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:51 pm

Looks like a good test for the Cavs and the future potential of Sexland .vs. another young back-court but with more height.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#3 » by Harper4Ferry? » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:14 am

I think my cable is broken somehow so I can't watch. But 8 threes attempted in 3 quarters? Is it 1994?
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#4 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:44 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:I think my cable is broken somehow so I can't watch. But 8 threes attempted in 3 quarters? Is it 1994?
It's like clockwork. Just look at how many Garland and Sexton take.

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#5 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:49 am

Also, we're getting destroyed on the boards. At every position. Allen isn't Drummond. The other guys have to, you know, make an effort. That box score is atrocious.

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#6 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:59 am

I am glad I didnt bother watching
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#7 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:24 am

Stillwater wrote:I am glad I didnt bother watching
I didn't watch it either, but I had a strong suspicion what the issues would be, mostly because they've been the same issues for over a month now.

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#8 » by JonFromVA » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:09 pm

I had hopes for the game, because the Cavs had oddly played well on some other back to backs; but I'm going to side step the obvious conclusion that the Cavs were thrashed by a taller and also quick backcourt, that we should have drafted Haliburton, etc, etc; and chalk this one up to the Cavs trying to play at the King's pace and then running out of energy in the second half.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#9 » by Revenged25 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:49 pm

JonFromVA wrote:I had hopes for the game, because the Cavs had oddly played well on some other back to backs; but I'm going to side step the obvious conclusion that the Cavs were thrashed by a taller and also quick backcourt, that we should have drafted Haliburton, etc, etc; and chalk this one up to the Cavs trying to play at the King's pace and then running out of energy in the second half.


Haliburton has looked good but does that mean Sexton or Garland start on the bench? I personally would think it was Garland but that means they're admitting that the 5th pick the previous year isn't working out or if it's Sexton then they are putting the only consistent scorer on the roster on the bench meaning the starting unit would struggle even more offensively.

So although it sounds nice, Haliburton or any other PG outside of maybe LaMelo if he fell, was never going to be the pick. Okoro is a good pick that is looking towards the future rather than an immediate expected return. He's already showing improvement over the season defensively as he's taking his lumps facing the opponents best scorers and learning from what they do to take advantage of his rookie mistakes. Granted his offense still has a long way to go but he's started to show some more confidence and willingness on that side, it's just going to take time.

Granted as much as I like what Okoro brings, I still feel Deni Avdija should've been the pick.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#10 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:41 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:I had hopes for the game, because the Cavs had oddly played well on some other back to backs; but I'm going to side step the obvious conclusion that the Cavs were thrashed by a taller and also quick backcourt, that we should have drafted Haliburton, etc, etc; and chalk this one up to the Cavs trying to play at the King's pace and then running out of energy in the second half.


Haliburton has looked good but does that mean Sexton or Garland start on the bench? I personally would think it was Garland but that means they're admitting that the 5th pick the previous year isn't working out or if it's Sexton then they are putting the only consistent scorer on the roster on the bench meaning the starting unit would struggle even more offensively.

So although it sounds nice, Haliburton or any other PG outside of maybe LaMelo if he fell, was never going to be the pick. Okoro is a good pick that is looking towards the future rather than an immediate expected return. He's already showing improvement over the season defensively as he's taking his lumps facing the opponents best scorers and learning from what they do to take advantage of his rookie mistakes. Granted his offense still has a long way to go but he's started to show some more confidence and willingness on that side, it's just going to take time.

Granted as much as I like what Okoro brings, I still feel Deni Avdija should've been the pick.

In defense of their choices this org has by all accounts used each one of their 3 lottery picks on players they anticipated to achieve high ceilings based on work ethic 2 have exceptional athleticism but far less skill coming in and are or in Sextons case was a long term pick. Garland was supposed to less long term but they knew he would take time needing to heal and get stronger even though not everything has worked out as fast as they hoped I would guess with him. All of the plug in rotation player types like Windler Wade etc are just bonus options that help your development of higher value projects.
I dont think they can as easily justify a long term development pick if outside the top 5 this time but I also dont think they are passing on a elite upside player even if it is at a position they seemingly dont need right now if said prospect is that much better long term than one with a little more skill and a higher floor but no real first option potential. The Cavs will just be a team full of high level rotation players probably with no clear elite player for a couple more seasons as the timeline continues into the 2023-24 season where we will see it blown up or start to make noise as a legit playoff team...then maybe they can get a sidekick for Sexton that takes them into a level of play that along with Allen they can actually attract a decent first option in free agency if they failed to do so in the next 2 drafts.
It is far too soon to start wondering what the hell difference Halliburton or Deni or anyone else could have done for this team offensively when they clearly wanted a defender above all else and although he is struggling trying to defend the best player on every team most nights it is clear he will develop into a high level defender and probably a solid corner 3 type. The thing missing from Okoro right now is not allowing him often enough to use his vision and passing ability by driving to the rim more. That is a very underappreciated aspect of his skillset
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#11 » by Revenged25 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:02 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:I had hopes for the game, because the Cavs had oddly played well on some other back to backs; but I'm going to side step the obvious conclusion that the Cavs were thrashed by a taller and also quick backcourt, that we should have drafted Haliburton, etc, etc; and chalk this one up to the Cavs trying to play at the King's pace and then running out of energy in the second half.


Haliburton has looked good but does that mean Sexton or Garland start on the bench? I personally would think it was Garland but that means they're admitting that the 5th pick the previous year isn't working out or if it's Sexton then they are putting the only consistent scorer on the roster on the bench meaning the starting unit would struggle even more offensively.

So although it sounds nice, Haliburton or any other PG outside of maybe LaMelo if he fell, was never going to be the pick. Okoro is a good pick that is looking towards the future rather than an immediate expected return. He's already showing improvement over the season defensively as he's taking his lumps facing the opponents best scorers and learning from what they do to take advantage of his rookie mistakes. Granted his offense still has a long way to go but he's started to show some more confidence and willingness on that side, it's just going to take time.

Granted as much as I like what Okoro brings, I still feel Deni Avdija should've been the pick.

In defense of their choices this org has by all accounts used each one of their 3 lottery picks on players they anticipated to achieve high ceilings based on work ethic 2 have exceptional athleticism but far less skill coming in and are or in Sextons case was a long term pick. Garland was supposed to less long term but they knew he would take time needing to heal and get stronger even though not everything has worked out as fast as they hoped I would guess with him. All of the plug in rotation player types like Windler Wade etc are just bonus options that help your development of higher value projects.
I dont think they can as easily justify a long term development pick if outside the top 5 this time but I also dont think they are passing on a elite upside player even if it is at a position they seemingly dont need right now if said prospect is that much better long term than one with a little more skill and a higher floor but no real first option potential. The Cavs will just be a team full of high level rotation players probably with no clear elite player for a couple more seasons as the timeline continues into the 2023-24 season where we will see it blown up or start to make noise as a legit playoff team...then maybe they can get a sidekick for Sexton that takes them into a level of play that along with Allen they can actually attract a decent first option in free agency if they failed to do so in the next 2 drafts.
It is far too soon to start wondering what the hell difference Halliburton or Deni or anyone else could have done for this team offensively when they clearly wanted a defender above all else and although he is struggling trying to defend the best player on every team most nights it is clear he will develop into a high level defender and probably a solid corner 3 type. The thing missing from Okoro right now is not allowing him often enough to use his vision and passing ability by driving to the rim more. That is a very underappreciated aspect of his skillset


Well I liked Deni because not only was he more of a playmaker on offense but he wasn't a complete lost cause on defense and could rebound well. If Okoro at a minimum can pick up his rebounding numbers some I'd be a lot happier.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#12 » by Harper4Ferry? » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:16 pm

I thought Okoro had crappy rebound numbers because of Drummond vacuuming everything. But that's proving not to be the case.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#13 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:54 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Haliburton has looked good but does that mean Sexton or Garland start on the bench? I personally would think it was Garland but that means they're admitting that the 5th pick the previous year isn't working out or if it's Sexton then they are putting the only consistent scorer on the roster on the bench meaning the starting unit would struggle even more offensively.

So although it sounds nice, Haliburton or any other PG outside of maybe LaMelo if he fell, was never going to be the pick. Okoro is a good pick that is looking towards the future rather than an immediate expected return. He's already showing improvement over the season defensively as he's taking his lumps facing the opponents best scorers and learning from what they do to take advantage of his rookie mistakes. Granted his offense still has a long way to go but he's started to show some more confidence and willingness on that side, it's just going to take time.

Granted as much as I like what Okoro brings, I still feel Deni Avdija should've been the pick.

In defense of their choices this org has by all accounts used each one of their 3 lottery picks on players they anticipated to achieve high ceilings based on work ethic 2 have exceptional athleticism but far less skill coming in and are or in Sextons case was a long term pick. Garland was supposed to less long term but they knew he would take time needing to heal and get stronger even though not everything has worked out as fast as they hoped I would guess with him. All of the plug in rotation player types like Windler Wade etc are just bonus options that help your development of higher value projects.
I dont think they can as easily justify a long term development pick if outside the top 5 this time but I also dont think they are passing on a elite upside player even if it is at a position they seemingly dont need right now if said prospect is that much better long term than one with a little more skill and a higher floor but no real first option potential. The Cavs will just be a team full of high level rotation players probably with no clear elite player for a couple more seasons as the timeline continues into the 2023-24 season where we will see it blown up or start to make noise as a legit playoff team...then maybe they can get a sidekick for Sexton that takes them into a level of play that along with Allen they can actually attract a decent first option in free agency if they failed to do so in the next 2 drafts.
It is far too soon to start wondering what the hell difference Halliburton or Deni or anyone else could have done for this team offensively when they clearly wanted a defender above all else and although he is struggling trying to defend the best player on every team most nights it is clear he will develop into a high level defender and probably a solid corner 3 type. The thing missing from Okoro right now is not allowing him often enough to use his vision and passing ability by driving to the rim more. That is a very underappreciated aspect of his skillset


Well I liked Deni because not only was he more of a playmaker on offense but he wasn't a complete lost cause on defense and could rebound well. If Okoro at a minimum can pick up his rebounding numbers some I'd be a lot happier.

I wasnt speaking to you specifically about who we picked per say but Okoro has been a better rookie than Deni so far whos skill has not transferred too well not enough for anyone who passed on him to be eating crow yet not that it means it wont eventually too. Okoro is mostly not seeking to produce enough offensively and maybe thats the way the coaches want it most of the time his rookie season. I wanted Okongwu the most but I am glad the pick wasnt him because he was part of the KPJ circle and a lot of the reason I wanted him over some others not too mention now in retrospect he clearly has a foot issue too. It occurred to me the other day that when they passed on Okongwu for Okoro they not only passed on KPJ's boy they picked a player that essentially plays the same position as KPJ and I bet that had something to do with him acting out and maybe ever why he wrecked his car but that last part is all speculation and should be treated as nothing more than one guys opinion based on KPJs history of suicidal tendencies etc.
Ok not sure why I went there
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#14 » by JonFromVA » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:58 pm

The offensive stats aren't so different between Okoro and Deni at this point to justify anything.

Our defensive rebounding rate is actually quite a bit better when Isaac is on the floor and higher than the Wizard's with or without Deni, so, I'm not even willing to concede that category to Avidja yet. As long as the team ends up with the rebound, it doesn't much matter if Okoro ends up with the stat.

And I suspect, Deni's numbers would take a hit if he was starting and being asked to defend the opponent's best PG/SG/SF every night.

Which ultimately, is what this season is all about for Isaac. An investment in him to help him learn the greatest players in the league and start to try to figure out how he can slow them down.

As for Haliburton, we might have ended up starting him with Sexton and Garland just to maximize the play time of all 3. Maybe we'd bench one of them if Allen/Love/Nance were all healthy? But that hasn't been a problem.

Maybe it'd even work better than what we have (right now), but everybody would be laughing at us for drafting PG's in the lottery 3 years in a row.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#15 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:15 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Haliburton has looked good but does that mean Sexton or Garland start on the bench? I personally would think it was Garland but that means they're admitting that the 5th pick the previous year isn't working out or if it's Sexton then they are putting the only consistent scorer on the roster on the bench meaning the starting unit would struggle even more offensively.

So although it sounds nice, Haliburton or any other PG outside of maybe LaMelo if he fell, was never going to be the pick. Okoro is a good pick that is looking towards the future rather than an immediate expected return. He's already showing improvement over the season defensively as he's taking his lumps facing the opponents best scorers and learning from what they do to take advantage of his rookie mistakes. Granted his offense still has a long way to go but he's started to show some more confidence and willingness on that side, it's just going to take time.

Granted as much as I like what Okoro brings, I still feel Deni Avdija should've been the pick.

In defense of their choices this org has by all accounts used each one of their 3 lottery picks on players they anticipated to achieve high ceilings based on work ethic 2 have exceptional athleticism but far less skill coming in and are or in Sextons case was a long term pick. Garland was supposed to less long term but they knew he would take time needing to heal and get stronger even though not everything has worked out as fast as they hoped I would guess with him. All of the plug in rotation player types like Windler Wade etc are just bonus options that help your development of higher value projects.
I dont think they can as easily justify a long term development pick if outside the top 5 this time but I also dont think they are passing on a elite upside player even if it is at a position they seemingly dont need right now if said prospect is that much better long term than one with a little more skill and a higher floor but no real first option potential. The Cavs will just be a team full of high level rotation players probably with no clear elite player for a couple more seasons as the timeline continues into the 2023-24 season where we will see it blown up or start to make noise as a legit playoff team...then maybe they can get a sidekick for Sexton that takes them into a level of play that along with Allen they can actually attract a decent first option in free agency if they failed to do so in the next 2 drafts.
It is far too soon to start wondering what the hell difference Halliburton or Deni or anyone else could have done for this team offensively when they clearly wanted a defender above all else and although he is struggling trying to defend the best player on every team most nights it is clear he will develop into a high level defender and probably a solid corner 3 type. The thing missing from Okoro right now is not allowing him often enough to use his vision and passing ability by driving to the rim more. That is a very underappreciated aspect of his skillset


Well I liked Deni because not only was he more of a playmaker on offense but he wasn't a complete lost cause on defense and could rebound well. If Okoro at a minimum can pick up his rebounding numbers some I'd be a lot happier.
One of the big question marks about Deni was whether he could defend at this level and it's not at all clear the answer is yes.

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:46 pm

Our rebounding, particularly our defensive rebounding, is atrocious and if that means guys can't leak out until we secure the rebound and put an end to the other team's possession, then that's what's got to happen.

Once again, Sexton and Garland need to shoot more from 3. Not everything is fixable but it's really frustrating watching the Cavs fail to fix what is.

Basically, players need to stop doing what they want to do and start doing what the team needs them to do in order to win.

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#17 » by Stillwater » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:12 am

jbk1234 wrote:Our rebounding, particularly our defensive rebounding, is atrocious and if that means guys can't leak out until we secure the rebound and put an end to the other team's possession, then that's what's got to happen.

Once again, Sexton and Garland need to shoot more from 3. Not everything is fixable but it's really frustrating watching the Cavs fail to fix what is.

Basically, players need to stop doing what they want to do and start doing what the team needs them to do in order to win.

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I definitely agree they need to shoot more esp when open , but I disagree with why they are passing them up... it's got to be at least somewhat part of trying to run JBB's offense that does not rely on 3's nearly enough but that he wants them to run anyway while they tank etc.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#18 » by jbk1234 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Our rebounding, particularly our defensive rebounding, is atrocious and if that means guys can't leak out until we secure the rebound and put an end to the other team's possession, then that's what's got to happen.

Once again, Sexton and Garland need to shoot more from 3. Not everything is fixable but it's really frustrating watching the Cavs fail to fix what is.

Basically, players need to stop doing what they want to do and start doing what the team needs them to do in order to win.

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I definitely agree they need to shoot more esp when open , but I disagree with why they are passing them up... it's got to be at least somewhat part of trying to run JBB's offense that does not rely on 3's nearly enough but that he wants them to run anyway while they tank etc.
I'm not going to dig for the quote at this late hour, but I'm pretty sure Bickerstaff has said words to the effect of them needing to shoot from 3 more.

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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#19 » by JonFromVA » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:53 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Our rebounding, particularly our defensive rebounding, is atrocious and if that means guys can't leak out until we secure the rebound and put an end to the other team's possession, then that's what's got to happen.

Once again, Sexton and Garland need to shoot more from 3. Not everything is fixable but it's really frustrating watching the Cavs fail to fix what is.

Basically, players need to stop doing what they want to do and start doing what the team needs them to do in order to win.

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I definitely agree they need to shoot more esp when open , but I disagree with why they are passing them up... it's got to be at least somewhat part of trying to run JBB's offense that does not rely on 3's nearly enough but that he wants them to run anyway while they tank etc.
I'm not going to dig for the quote at this late hour, but I'm pretty sure Bickerstaff has said words to the effect of them needing to shoot from 3 more.


JBB has asked them to shoot more and be more aggressive, but IMO that's putting the cart before the horse.

Unless they space the floor better and run plays to create open shots for their best shooters more than once per game, they will just lose games bricking a bunch of 3's.
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Re: Game 43 : Sacramento Kings (17-25) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (16-26) - 7:30 PM 

Post#20 » by jbk1234 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:24 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I definitely agree they need to shoot more esp when open , but I disagree with why they are passing them up... it's got to be at least somewhat part of trying to run JBB's offense that does not rely on 3's nearly enough but that he wants them to run anyway while they tank etc.
I'm not going to dig for the quote at this late hour, but I'm pretty sure Bickerstaff has said words to the effect of them needing to shoot from 3 more.


JBB has asked them to shoot more and be more aggressive, but IMO that's putting the cart before the horse.

Unless they space the floor better and run plays to create open shots for their best shooters more than once per game, they will just lose games bricking a bunch of 3's.
Having your best three point shooters take more open 3s is how you spread the floor.

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