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Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM

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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#21 » by Stillwater » Wed Apr 7, 2021 1:33 am

LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
This is the reason why I will prioritize Garland over Sexton for the longterm. When he is 'on' and is aggressivly hunting his shot with confidence, he is a future All Star. But he is still learning to trust his scoring.

When Garland is acting like the #1 option the offense seems to also play much smoother. Hes so good at driving and finding the right guy whereas Sexton slows the offense down to a crawl when he is the #1 because he ISO scores. Even when Sexton is 'on' the rest of the team might not benefit. Its almost like empty stats.

ALSO--somebodys got to bring it up. Garland/Sexton is turning into Kyrie/Waiters 2.0. The only way I see this team actually growing in the future is if they have that hard conversation with Sexton that his future that best benefits the Cavs is as a 6th man.

Dont do that after one game...maybe if DG can consistently be this guy like Sexton has consistently been that guy than sure you might see a reason to trade Sexton but there is no chance it makes sense for Sexton to be the 6th man at this point that ship has sailed


I think a lot of the reason why he was able to be that guy last night is because he finally hunted his shots and put up 20+ while Sexton took what was given to him off ball. That caused the offense to look then best it has looked in over a month.

Usually those shot attempts are in reverse.

It's not just about scoring. I don't dislike Sexton but I just don't see anything he does well outside of ISO scoring. When his shot isn't falling, he doesn't bring anything else to the floor.

If Garland can add some consistent scoring with his already great playmaking ability he will be a AllStar. It's really just up to him to come into every game as if he is the alpha dog.

I don't see what DG does beyond taking up more usage in this particular situation that changes his stat line that much like this any more than Sexton when he has high usage I need a much larger sample and am not sold Sexton couldnt do the same thing at this point if asked to...but DG has the flashy handles and slippery moves to mess with defenders whereas Sexton just has speed and explosiveness
They should just trade both of them for Davion Mitchell who is the combination of both players strengths
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#22 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 1:34 am

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I dont know about that, Amico has reported that Garland already has one foot out the door and wont be back for his next contract because he doesnt 100% love the way Sexton plays. You can tell in his body language when Sexton stops the ball movement to put a ISO move on a defender only to get blocked at the rim or brick a mid range.

Im just saying, the Cavs are going to have to decide between the two in the next year or two. There is noway this team works out currently constructed unless you stagger Garland/Sexton. Both need the ball in their hands to be successful and neither is a great off-ball player. Especially after what we say last night with what happens when Garland is the #1. I much prefer that to when Sexton is pounding the ball missing cutters all over the place because he has tunnel vision.


Setting the Sam Amico "hunch" aside as he's generally considered a hack even when reporting from his "sources", I haven't noticed any body language from Darius directed at Collin. He seems to always be very upbeat except when he hangs his head after blowing one of his own drives. I'll be looking for it.

I think it's still too early to call on picking one, the other, both, or neither. It's unfortunate that we'll have to decide whether we want to extend Collin soon, but that's just how it goes. There's no reason they can't learn to play off each other, and the fact they both can score on their own but in different ways is a strength not a weakness.

The point of playing two scorers like Darius and Collin together is that when the defense sells out to stop one, the other should be having his way, and visa-versa; but Darius is in the process of building his confidence, and Collin is learning how to deal with defenses focused on him while both of them are learning how to defend. Something we haven't talked about on this board is that Collin has made the transition this season from a poor "clutch time" player in to a fantastic one this season averaging 50.4 points per48 on 65% efg. Darius has also made progress in that area since his rookie season and is averaging 33.1 points per48 on 50% efg this season. We just need to keep more games closer.

Still ... about the only thing the Cavs should be tracking is how many games we've had our intended starting 5 playing and practicing together. Once that's comfortably above 0, we can start deciding how the pieces and parts are progressing towards where they need to eventually get.

I mean seriously, the one constant around Sexland all year is we've been playing Okoro at SF who's generally over-matched on defense and contributing very little on offense. He will turn the corner, and when he does it should make a huge difference.


Good points but I still dont know how this team will function with both Garland/Sexton on the floor together for more than 10+ mins per game. In theory as you stated, it should work--but its a LONG way away from that and its still a gamble if it even works or not.

The easiest and shortest path to success (which might also help each player speed up their development) is to stagger them and bring Sexton off the bench.

Also, because we are hellbent on trying to recreate Dame/McCollum or Lowry/Vanvleet its forcing OTHER guys like you mentioned with Okoro to play out of position and hurt his own growth and timeline. Im just saying, the idea in theory is nice with the possibilities of Garland/Sexton maximizing eachother--but the execution has been horrendous and is hurting the team now and into the future.

Im in the belief of the Cavs need to cut their losses with this dumb 2 undersized PGs experiment and shift this team towards a traditional lineup. The whole reason to play a undersized lineup is to create advantages, but guess what, I have yet to see a game this year where the Cavs undersizedness actually helps them win. If anything, its helping them lose.


Here's the thing ... if we literally had 20/21 yr old clones of Dame/CJ, Lowry/Van Vleet, Conley/Mitchell, or Thomas/Dumars... how long would you give THEM before you would expect to see the sort of impact their originals eventually achieved?

Our trio is ready to win an NCAA championship (if we could send them to the same school) not contend for an NBA one.

And Okoro is a bit short for a SF but he's a better fit there as a slasher. In reality all of them would had been coming off the bench on a better team until they were ready to win. Don't blame them because the Cavs are trying to push their development along faster.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#23 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:22 am

Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Dont do that after one game...maybe if DG can consistently be this guy like Sexton has consistently been that guy than sure you might see a reason to trade Sexton but there is no chance it makes sense for Sexton to be the 6th man at this point that ship has sailed


I think a lot of the reason why he was able to be that guy last night is because he finally hunted his shots and put up 20+ while Sexton took what was given to him off ball. That caused the offense to look then best it has looked in over a month.

Usually those shot attempts are in reverse.

It's not just about scoring. I don't dislike Sexton but I just don't see anything he does well outside of ISO scoring. When his shot isn't falling, he doesn't bring anything else to the floor.

If Garland can add some consistent scoring with his already great playmaking ability he will be a AllStar. It's really just up to him to come into every game as if he is the alpha dog.

I don't see what DG does beyond taking up more usage in this particular situation that changes his stat line that much like this any more than Sexton when he has high usage I need a much larger sample and am not sold Sexton couldnt do the same thing at this point if asked to...but DG has the flashy handles and slippery moves to mess with defenders whereas Sexton just has speed and explosiveness
They should just trade both of them for Davion Mitchell who is the combination of both players strengths


I think the main difference is that DG can play make for other out of his dribble moves whereas Sexton cannot. Just the game last night he was baiting defenders and he can get past anybody--but the difference for me is that when he does get past his defender--his passing ability combined with his scoring threat is what makes him a better option than Sexton.

When Sexton gets past his man, he 8/10 forces his shot with tunnel vision. Hes not looking to do anything besides score. DG when he gets past his guy is so much more of a triple threat. This gets other guys involved, gets the ball moving, gets other players confidence up and has guys like playing with him. He already has great chemistry with Allen/Love/Nance in P&R/P&P

In the end, DGs natural skill and shot creation for him and others is what is eventually going to make him a better player in the 1-3 years. I just hope the Cavs realize his potential is crazy high and start to put the keys to the car in his hands on offense and have Sexton play off ball.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#24 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:29 am

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Setting the Sam Amico "hunch" aside as he's generally considered a hack even when reporting from his "sources", I haven't noticed any body language from Darius directed at Collin. He seems to always be very upbeat except when he hangs his head after blowing one of his own drives. I'll be looking for it.

I think it's still too early to call on picking one, the other, both, or neither. It's unfortunate that we'll have to decide whether we want to extend Collin soon, but that's just how it goes. There's no reason they can't learn to play off each other, and the fact they both can score on their own but in different ways is a strength not a weakness.

The point of playing two scorers like Darius and Collin together is that when the defense sells out to stop one, the other should be having his way, and visa-versa; but Darius is in the process of building his confidence, and Collin is learning how to deal with defenses focused on him while both of them are learning how to defend. Something we haven't talked about on this board is that Collin has made the transition this season from a poor "clutch time" player in to a fantastic one this season averaging 50.4 points per48 on 65% efg. Darius has also made progress in that area since his rookie season and is averaging 33.1 points per48 on 50% efg this season. We just need to keep more games closer.

Still ... about the only thing the Cavs should be tracking is how many games we've had our intended starting 5 playing and practicing together. Once that's comfortably above 0, we can start deciding how the pieces and parts are progressing towards where they need to eventually get.

I mean seriously, the one constant around Sexland all year is we've been playing Okoro at SF who's generally over-matched on defense and contributing very little on offense. He will turn the corner, and when he does it should make a huge difference.


Good points but I still dont know how this team will function with both Garland/Sexton on the floor together for more than 10+ mins per game. In theory as you stated, it should work--but its a LONG way away from that and its still a gamble if it even works or not.

The easiest and shortest path to success (which might also help each player speed up their development) is to stagger them and bring Sexton off the bench.

Also, because we are hellbent on trying to recreate Dame/McCollum or Lowry/Vanvleet its forcing OTHER guys like you mentioned with Okoro to play out of position and hurt his own growth and timeline. Im just saying, the idea in theory is nice with the possibilities of Garland/Sexton maximizing eachother--but the execution has been horrendous and is hurting the team now and into the future.

Im in the belief of the Cavs need to cut their losses with this dumb 2 undersized PGs experiment and shift this team towards a traditional lineup. The whole reason to play a undersized lineup is to create advantages, but guess what, I have yet to see a game this year where the Cavs undersizedness actually helps them win. If anything, its helping them lose.


Here's the thing ... if we literally had 20/21 yr old clones of Dame/CJ, Lowry/Van Vleet, Conley/Mitchell, or Thomas/Dumars... how long would you give THEM before you would expect to see the sort of impact their originals eventually achieved?

Our trio is ready to win an NCAA championship (if we could send them to the same school) not contend for an NBA one.

And Okoro is a bit short for a SF but he's a better fit there as a slasher. In reality all of them would had been coming off the bench on a better team until they were ready to win. Don't blame them because the Cavs are trying to push their development along faster.


That makes sense lol At the end of the day, I hope both do great, but watching this team I just notice trajectory of players and its hard for me not to watch DG and not see a young All Star who simply needs more confidence and shot attempts to be great. Maybe its because he is far more naturally skilled than Sexton is that makes me thing DGs ceiling is much higher whereas even when I watch Sexton do well, it looks manufactured. It looks like he tries really hard each shot he makes.

In the end though, they are young. I just wish they would put together a group of 5 on the floor that was more traditional. Im sick of the 'play two 6'1" undersized guards at the same time' thing they have been doing for 2 years. The team needs more balance and size and I dont think thats something I will ever be able to come off of.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#25 » by Stillwater » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:36 am

LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I think a lot of the reason why he was able to be that guy last night is because he finally hunted his shots and put up 20+ while Sexton took what was given to him off ball. That caused the offense to look then best it has looked in over a month.

Usually those shot attempts are in reverse.

It's not just about scoring. I don't dislike Sexton but I just don't see anything he does well outside of ISO scoring. When his shot isn't falling, he doesn't bring anything else to the floor.

If Garland can add some consistent scoring with his already great playmaking ability he will be a AllStar. It's really just up to him to come into every game as if he is the alpha dog.

I don't see what DG does beyond taking up more usage in this particular situation that changes his stat line that much like this any more than Sexton when he has high usage I need a much larger sample and am not sold Sexton couldnt do the same thing at this point if asked to...but DG has the flashy handles and slippery moves to mess with defenders whereas Sexton just has speed and explosiveness
They should just trade both of them for Davion Mitchell who is the combination of both players strengths


I think the main difference is that DG can play make for other out of his dribble moves whereas Sexton cannot. Just the game last night he was baiting defenders and he can get past anybody--but the difference for me is that when he does get past his defender--his passing ability combined with his scoring threat is what makes him a better option than Sexton.

When Sexton gets past his man, he 8/10 forces his shot with tunnel vision. Hes not looking to do anything besides score. DG when he gets past his guy is so much more of a triple threat. This gets other guys involved, gets the ball moving, gets other players confidence up and has guys like playing with him. He already has great chemistry with Allen/Love/Nance in P&R/P&P

In the end, DGs natural skill and shot creation for him and others is what is eventually going to make him a better player in the 1-3 years. I just hope the Cavs realize his potential is crazy high and start to put the keys to the car in his hands on offense and have Sexton play off ball.

I am seeing a different player than what you describe here. He gets past defenders but cannot usually finish and needs to find bail outs its a huge part of the problem.
I just do not see Sexton playing with his rookie tunnel vision anymore at all. I see a score first guard who is 90% of the time doing exactly what the team needs from him scoring which he has proven capable of doing far more consistently than DG.
I love DG's potential esp when he goes out and shows his shooting is still an asset when he finds a team that will give it too him based on his lack of reliance on it in the scouting reports .
Once teams start defending him more I don't see the same level of impact happening at all. I see him overdribbling his way into trouble more than likely and the flow of the offense suffering same as how there is little ball movement success when Sexton is being asked to score first pass later the difference is Sexton can score on his own easier
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#26 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:48 am

Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I don't see what DG does beyond taking up more usage in this particular situation that changes his stat line that much like this any more than Sexton when he has high usage I need a much larger sample and am not sold Sexton couldnt do the same thing at this point if asked to...but DG has the flashy handles and slippery moves to mess with defenders whereas Sexton just has speed and explosiveness
They should just trade both of them for Davion Mitchell who is the combination of both players strengths


I think the main difference is that DG can play make for other out of his dribble moves whereas Sexton cannot. Just the game last night he was baiting defenders and he can get past anybody--but the difference for me is that when he does get past his defender--his passing ability combined with his scoring threat is what makes him a better option than Sexton.

When Sexton gets past his man, he 8/10 forces his shot with tunnel vision. Hes not looking to do anything besides score. DG when he gets past his guy is so much more of a triple threat. This gets other guys involved, gets the ball moving, gets other players confidence up and has guys like playing with him. He already has great chemistry with Allen/Love/Nance in P&R/P&P

In the end, DGs natural skill and shot creation for him and others is what is eventually going to make him a better player in the 1-3 years. I just hope the Cavs realize his potential is crazy high and start to put the keys to the car in his hands on offense and have Sexton play off ball.

I am seeing a different player than what you describe here. He gets past defenders but cannot usually finish and needs to find bail outs its a huge part of the problem.
I just do not see Sexton playing with his rookie tunnel vision anymore at all. I see a score first guard who is 90% of the time doing exactly what the team needs from him scoring which he has proven capable of doing far more consistently than DG.
I love DG's potential esp when he goes out and shows his shooting is still an asset when he finds a team that will give it too him based on his lack of reliance on it in the scouting reports .
Once teams start defending him more I don't see the same level of impact happening at all. I see him overdribbling his way into trouble more than likely and the flow of the offense suffering same as how there is little ball movement success when Sexton is being asked to score first pass later


I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#27 » by Stillwater » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:25 am

LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I think the main difference is that DG can play make for other out of his dribble moves whereas Sexton cannot. Just the game last night he was baiting defenders and he can get past anybody--but the difference for me is that when he does get past his defender--his passing ability combined with his scoring threat is what makes him a better option than Sexton.

When Sexton gets past his man, he 8/10 forces his shot with tunnel vision. Hes not looking to do anything besides score. DG when he gets past his guy is so much more of a triple threat. This gets other guys involved, gets the ball moving, gets other players confidence up and has guys like playing with him. He already has great chemistry with Allen/Love/Nance in P&R/P&P

In the end, DGs natural skill and shot creation for him and others is what is eventually going to make him a better player in the 1-3 years. I just hope the Cavs realize his potential is crazy high and start to put the keys to the car in his hands on offense and have Sexton play off ball.

I am seeing a different player than what you describe here. He gets past defenders but cannot usually finish and needs to find bail outs its a huge part of the problem.
I just do not see Sexton playing with his rookie tunnel vision anymore at all. I see a score first guard who is 90% of the time doing exactly what the team needs from him scoring which he has proven capable of doing far more consistently than DG.
I love DG's potential esp when he goes out and shows his shooting is still an asset when he finds a team that will give it too him based on his lack of reliance on it in the scouting reports .
Once teams start defending him more I don't see the same level of impact happening at all. I see him overdribbling his way into trouble more than likely and the flow of the offense suffering same as how there is little ball movement success when Sexton is being asked to score first pass later


I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.

I am just not interested in the debate of who is better at this point.
I do not agree Sexton is an empty stat player on a good team nor that he gets a fair shake when it comes to comparing him to a kid who by all accounts for the most part in DG has been a massive let down any more than I agree garland is suddenly a legit point guard in the NBA in a high school kids body with injury history and only seems comfortable shooting in space which he wont have when game planned for unless you have Love and Sexton out there drawing attn.
The problem with the 2 together has always been defense. Not the potential offensively which if DG manages to keep this up could open up things some but I dont see it until I see it here.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#28 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:15 am

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Good points but I still dont know how this team will function with both Garland/Sexton on the floor together for more than 10+ mins per game. In theory as you stated, it should work--but its a LONG way away from that and its still a gamble if it even works or not.

The easiest and shortest path to success (which might also help each player speed up their development) is to stagger them and bring Sexton off the bench.

Also, because we are hellbent on trying to recreate Dame/McCollum or Lowry/Vanvleet its forcing OTHER guys like you mentioned with Okoro to play out of position and hurt his own growth and timeline. Im just saying, the idea in theory is nice with the possibilities of Garland/Sexton maximizing eachother--but the execution has been horrendous and is hurting the team now and into the future.

Im in the belief of the Cavs need to cut their losses with this dumb 2 undersized PGs experiment and shift this team towards a traditional lineup. The whole reason to play a undersized lineup is to create advantages, but guess what, I have yet to see a game this year where the Cavs undersizedness actually helps them win. If anything, its helping them lose.


Here's the thing ... if we literally had 20/21 yr old clones of Dame/CJ, Lowry/Van Vleet, Conley/Mitchell, or Thomas/Dumars... how long would you give THEM before you would expect to see the sort of impact their originals eventually achieved?

Our trio is ready to win an NCAA championship (if we could send them to the same school) not contend for an NBA one.

And Okoro is a bit short for a SF but he's a better fit there as a slasher. In reality all of them would had been coming off the bench on a better team until they were ready to win. Don't blame them because the Cavs are trying to push their development along faster.


That makes sense lol At the end of the day, I hope both do great, but watching this team I just notice trajectory of players and its hard for me not to watch DG and not see a young All Star who simply needs more confidence and shot attempts to be great. Maybe its because he is far more naturally skilled than Sexton is that makes me thing DGs ceiling is much higher whereas even when I watch Sexton do well, it looks manufactured. It looks like he tries really hard each shot he makes.

In the end though, they are young. I just wish they would put together a group of 5 on the floor that was more traditional. Im sick of the 'play two 6'1" undersized guards at the same time' thing they have been doing for 2 years. The team needs more balance and size and I dont think thats something I will ever be able to come off of.


I get all that, but patience is the key to get the most out of the talent were collecting and developing. The trick for Altman is to build value in these players as they earn their new contracts, so if we get to a point we feel we have no choice but to break them up we can get something back we need.

One of the more famous examples of a small backcourts that needed to be broken up but caused a lot of controversy is when the Warriors traded away Monte Ellis for Bogut. Fans screamed but they not only enabled Steph to become what he is, they made room for Klay and got Bogut who helped them alot.

But by then Monte was 26 and Steph was 23, so we knew what Monte was by then. He was mostly a negative player, high usage, and not efficient. Pretty much a no brainer.

Its going to be a while before Collin is 26 ... and he may take some steps backwards along the way, but why not see how far forward he can go?

He's worth far more to the Cavs than any other team in the league. Nobody is giving us a top 5 pick for him, but if we eventually have to deal him ... hopefully we have our Klay and then we can try to go get our Bogut.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#29 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:14 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I think the main difference is that DG can play make for other out of his dribble moves whereas Sexton cannot. Just the game last night he was baiting defenders and he can get past anybody--but the difference for me is that when he does get past his defender--his passing ability combined with his scoring threat is what makes him a better option than Sexton.

When Sexton gets past his man, he 8/10 forces his shot with tunnel vision. Hes not looking to do anything besides score. DG when he gets past his guy is so much more of a triple threat. This gets other guys involved, gets the ball moving, gets other players confidence up and has guys like playing with him. He already has great chemistry with Allen/Love/Nance in P&R/P&P

In the end, DGs natural skill and shot creation for him and others is what is eventually going to make him a better player in the 1-3 years. I just hope the Cavs realize his potential is crazy high and start to put the keys to the car in his hands on offense and have Sexton play off ball.

I am seeing a different player than what you describe here. He gets past defenders but cannot usually finish and needs to find bail outs its a huge part of the problem.
I just do not see Sexton playing with his rookie tunnel vision anymore at all. I see a score first guard who is 90% of the time doing exactly what the team needs from him scoring which he has proven capable of doing far more consistently than DG.
I love DG's potential esp when he goes out and shows his shooting is still an asset when he finds a team that will give it too him based on his lack of reliance on it in the scouting reports .
Once teams start defending him more I don't see the same level of impact happening at all. I see him overdribbling his way into trouble more than likely and the flow of the offense suffering same as how there is little ball movement success when Sexton is being asked to score first pass later


I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.


My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#30 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:36 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I am seeing a different player than what you describe here. He gets past defenders but cannot usually finish and needs to find bail outs its a huge part of the problem.
I just do not see Sexton playing with his rookie tunnel vision anymore at all. I see a score first guard who is 90% of the time doing exactly what the team needs from him scoring which he has proven capable of doing far more consistently than DG.
I love DG's potential esp when he goes out and shows his shooting is still an asset when he finds a team that will give it too him based on his lack of reliance on it in the scouting reports .
Once teams start defending him more I don't see the same level of impact happening at all. I see him overdribbling his way into trouble more than likely and the flow of the offense suffering same as how there is little ball movement success when Sexton is being asked to score first pass later


I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.


My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


This this this this 10000x this. He is great at what he does and thats be a microwave scorer. Microwave high volume scorers have a role to play, but that role is a 6th man ala Jordan Clarkson, Jamal Crawford, ect. Sexton just seems to bog down the offense. Even when the pass is swung to him, he hesitates because his first instinct is 'the ball is mine now score'. Its his 3rd year and even when he passes it looks forced. He has no natural passing ability.

Also, its only a matter of time before Okoro goes nuts on him. Watch the next game and watch how many times Okoro leaks up the floor after a miss and cuts to the basket and Sexton doesnt find him so Okoro just runs a lap around the baseline. This happens 2-3x per game. Keep you head up in transition for the love of.....Okoro is great at playing off-ball and cutting all over the place. This team needs more willing passers outside of Garland/Love to keep the ball moving. Ala what the offense looked like for the first month of the season.

I like Sexton, but trying to force him to be 'the' guy is not going to work longterm. He is far too limited as a basketball player and his skillset hasnt gotten better in year 3
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#31 » by Revenged25 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:53 pm

I'm sorry, but how does someone with a line of 27 ppg on 50/40/85 not improve a team period? That is extreme efficiency.
Just to give a bit of a reference, 25 ppg 50/40/85 has only happened 11 times, 3x by Larry Bird, 4x by Kevin Durant, 1x by Steph Curry, 1x Kiki Vandewaghe, and currently Jokic and Lavine this season.

Dropping it to 25 ppg on 50/38/85 splits it's happened an additional 4 times. Kevin Durant is added to the list 2 more times, and then Kyrie and Kawhi's current season's splits are added. The worst wins shares for those are still all positive with Durant's current season being the lowest at 2.7 WS followed by Lavine's current season at 4.7 WS.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#32 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:35 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I am seeing a different player than what you describe here. He gets past defenders but cannot usually finish and needs to find bail outs its a huge part of the problem.
I just do not see Sexton playing with his rookie tunnel vision anymore at all. I see a score first guard who is 90% of the time doing exactly what the team needs from him scoring which he has proven capable of doing far more consistently than DG.
I love DG's potential esp when he goes out and shows his shooting is still an asset when he finds a team that will give it too him based on his lack of reliance on it in the scouting reports .
Once teams start defending him more I don't see the same level of impact happening at all. I see him overdribbling his way into trouble more than likely and the flow of the offense suffering same as how there is little ball movement success when Sexton is being asked to score first pass later


I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.


My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


I can't think of many successful sixth men who organically grew in to that role for the team that drafted them. There's Ginobili who wasn't strictly a sixth man, but was certainly willing to accept whatever role Pops needed from him. It's often a long bumpy road for the others.

Collin's efficiency, however, sets him aside from many of them. His clutch scoring shows he can be a finisher. His potential, his youth, and his willingness to work on his game make it all worth our while to try to figure out how we can get the most from him.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't sense the kind of stubbornness in Collin that would limit his growth. He may just needs to be challenged and focused in the right way so he's getting the most from his work-ethic, drive, and single-mindedness.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#33 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:38 pm

Revenged25 wrote:I'm sorry, but how does someone with a line of 27 ppg on 50/40/85 not improve a team period? That is extreme efficiency.
Just to give a bit of a reference, 25 ppg 50/40/85 has only happened 11 times, 3x by Larry Bird, 4x by Kevin Durant, 1x by Steph Curry, 1x Kiki Vandewaghe, and currently Jokic and Lavine this season.

Dropping it to 25 ppg on 50/38/85 splits it's happened an additional 4 times. Kevin Durant is added to the list 2 more times, and then Kyrie and Kawhi's current season's splits are added. The worst wins shares for those are still all positive with Durant's current season being the lowest at 2.7 WS followed by Lavine's current season at 4.7 WS.


Just to be clear, Kyrie Irving has been in the NBA for an entire decade, and this is the first year he's posted 50 or higher on the first line of those splits. He's doing so off the ball with Harden running the offense. As I said, I can imagine a roster where it would work, but it wouldn't be easy to construct.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#34 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:40 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.


My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


I can't think of many successful sixth men who organically grew in to that role for the team that drafted them. There's Ginobili who wasn't strictly a sixth man, but was certainly willing to accept whatever role Pops needed from him. It's often a long bumpy road for the others.

Collin's efficiency, however, sets him aside from many of them. His clutch scoring shows he can be a finisher. His potential, his youth, and his willingness to work on his game make it all worth our while to try to figure out how we can get the most from him.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't sense the kind of stubbornness in Collin that would limit his growth. He may just needs to be challenged and focused in the right way so he's getting the most from his work-ethic, drive, and single-mindedness.


You make valid points I just see the other side of the coin. He could grow, he has the potential to become more of a complete player, but will he? How long are we going to continue playing with the roster currently constructed to find out, ect ect

He has the work ethic and drive but court vision and passing ability the way Garland does is not something that is learned. You either have it or you dont type of thing. I dont know if Sexton is ever going to be able to change his overall game to become more balanced offensively.

The fact that he also struggles shooting off the dribble hurts a lot too. There are a lot of 'ifs' with him. My view is just from a timeline aspect. How long are we going to wait to find out IF he can.....
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#35 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:41 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.


My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


I can't think of many successful sixth men who organically grew in to that role for the team that drafted them. There's Ginobili who wasn't strictly a sixth man, but was certainly willing to accept whatever role Pops needed from him. It's often a long bumpy road for the others.

Collin's efficiency, however, sets him aside from many of them. His clutch scoring shows he can be a finisher. His potential, his youth, and his willingness to work on his game make it all worth our while to try to figure out how we can get the most from him.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't sense the kind of stubbornness in Collin that would limit his growth. He may just needs to be challenged and focused in the right way so he's getting the most from his work-ethic, drive, and single-mindedness.


I'm going to need to people to show their work on the bolded. The Cavs haven't played in a lot of close games, and when they have, they've rarely won, and when they have won, the game has usually been close in the sense of the Cavs surrendering a healthy lead in the finals minutes but managing to hold on.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#36 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:46 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I see that Im def. in the minority of Garland compared to Sexton on a few message boards + what people say on social media.

People seem to love themselves some Collin Sexton and literally want Garland traded on a few boards Im on.

To sum it up, I see Sexton as a player who is already close to his peak and offers little to nothing outside of volume scoring. Even when he is scoring, I often wonder how much he is making the team better by doing it. Lets call it fear of him being empty stats guy--the KAT of point guards if you will. Does Collin Sexton scoring 27ppg on 50/40/85 shooting equate to the Cavs winning games....I have my concerns.


My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


This this this this 10000x this. He is great at what he does and thats be a microwave scorer. Microwave high volume scorers have a role to play, but that role is a 6th man ala Jordan Clarkson, Jamal Crawford, ect. Sexton just seems to bog down the offense. Even when the pass is swung to him, he hesitates because his first instinct is 'the ball is mine now score'. Its his 3rd year and even when he passes it looks forced. He has no natural passing ability.

Also, its only a matter of time before Okoro goes nuts on him. Watch the next game and watch how many times Okoro leaks up the floor after a miss and cuts to the basket and Sexton doesnt find him so Okoro just runs a lap around the baseline. This happens 2-3x per game. Keep you head up in transition for the love of.....Okoro is great at playing off-ball and cutting all over the place. This team needs more willing passers outside of Garland/Love to keep the ball moving. Ala what the offense looked like for the first month of the season.

I like Sexton, but trying to force him to be 'the' guy is not going to work longterm. He is far too limited as a basketball player and his skillset hasnt gotten better in year 3


The thing is most of the time Garland is bringing the ball up and they've been on him to push the pace and bring it up faster. So, that's now on him to see Isaac and get the ball to him. What you have to plan for is when Garland is off the floor and what's been one of our biggest holes all season? We've lacked a backup PG.

Collin doesn't need to be "the guy", but he can certainly be "a guy" and I'm just not going to stop bringing up floor spacing because it affects so many things including Collin's ability to make a quick decision when he has the ball. If we make the floor easier for him to process, he will become much more effective.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#37 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:07 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


I can't think of many successful sixth men who organically grew in to that role for the team that drafted them. There's Ginobili who wasn't strictly a sixth man, but was certainly willing to accept whatever role Pops needed from him. It's often a long bumpy road for the others.

Collin's efficiency, however, sets him aside from many of them. His clutch scoring shows he can be a finisher. His potential, his youth, and his willingness to work on his game make it all worth our while to try to figure out how we can get the most from him.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't sense the kind of stubbornness in Collin that would limit his growth. He may just needs to be challenged and focused in the right way so he's getting the most from his work-ethic, drive, and single-mindedness.


I'm going to need to people to show their work on the bolded. The Cavs haven't played in a lot of close games, and when they have, they've rarely won, and when they have won, the game has usually been close in the sense of the Cavs surrendering a healthy lead in the finals minutes but managing to hold on.


Gladly. Two places I know to find clutch data are 82games.com and nba.com.

Such as: http://www.82games.com/2021/20CLE1.HTM#clutch

82games is a wonderful site for all sorts of +/- and on/off data, but they seem to update less frequently as the years go by; but right now their data is good through 4/5.

nba.com should give you the total "clutch minutes", but 82games indicates we've had 15 instances of "clutch time" and the Cavs have outscored their opponent 10 times. That's what the W-L and Win% indicate. It doesn't mean they actually won the game, however.

Collin's shooting details breaks down the eFG% in to shot type and we can see he has a strong mix of both jumpers and scoring at the rim. We can also see he's rarely assisted on these shots. From his AST48 of 3.9 we also know he's not looking to pass anymore or less in these situations than typical.

Similarly not much of Garland's clutch scoring is assisted either.

Fair to say, we're seeing a lot of hero ball in these situations ... and it's actually working better than what we usually see.

Which has a lot of interesting implications.

For comparison, the all-around clutch leader this season is probably Dame Lillard, and he's been involved in 25 games that qualified. He's also not being assisted very often during "clutch time".

I believe I've mentioned this already, but I'd also suggest anyone interested in stats to dig in to the Cavs home-road split data which is easily available at basketball-reference.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#38 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:09 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


This this this this 10000x this. He is great at what he does and thats be a microwave scorer. Microwave high volume scorers have a role to play, but that role is a 6th man ala Jordan Clarkson, Jamal Crawford, ect. Sexton just seems to bog down the offense. Even when the pass is swung to him, he hesitates because his first instinct is 'the ball is mine now score'. Its his 3rd year and even when he passes it looks forced. He has no natural passing ability.

Also, its only a matter of time before Okoro goes nuts on him. Watch the next game and watch how many times Okoro leaks up the floor after a miss and cuts to the basket and Sexton doesnt find him so Okoro just runs a lap around the baseline. This happens 2-3x per game. Keep you head up in transition for the love of.....Okoro is great at playing off-ball and cutting all over the place. This team needs more willing passers outside of Garland/Love to keep the ball moving. Ala what the offense looked like for the first month of the season.

I like Sexton, but trying to force him to be 'the' guy is not going to work longterm. He is far too limited as a basketball player and his skillset hasnt gotten better in year 3


The thing is most of the time Garland is bringing the ball up and they've been on him to push the pace and bring it up faster. So, that's now on him to see Isaac and get the ball to him. What you have to plan for is when Garland is off the floor and what's been one of our biggest holes all season? We've lacked a backup PG.

Collin doesn't need to be "the guy", but he can certainly be "a guy" and I'm just not going to stop bringing up floor spacing because it affects so many things including Collin's ability to make a quick decision when he has the ball. If we make the floor easier for him to process, he will become much more effective.


I agree with this but then he has to become better defensively. If he needs a spaced out floor with shooters to thrive, then he cannot also be the guy you have to hide defensively. If he needs a spaced out floor, then he needs to help with rebounding when one or more big men are away from the basket. If he needs a spaced out floor, then the Cavs are going to sacrifice in other areas to provide that for him. He needs to help make up the difference.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#39 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:13 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I can't think of many successful sixth men who organically grew in to that role for the team that drafted them. There's Ginobili who wasn't strictly a sixth man, but was certainly willing to accept whatever role Pops needed from him. It's often a long bumpy road for the others.

Collin's efficiency, however, sets him aside from many of them. His clutch scoring shows he can be a finisher. His potential, his youth, and his willingness to work on his game make it all worth our while to try to figure out how we can get the most from him.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't sense the kind of stubbornness in Collin that would limit his growth. He may just needs to be challenged and focused in the right way so he's getting the most from his work-ethic, drive, and single-mindedness.


I'm going to need to people to show their work on the bolded. The Cavs haven't played in a lot of close games, and when they have, they've rarely won, and when they have won, the game has usually been close in the sense of the Cavs surrendering a healthy lead in the finals minutes but managing to hold on.


Gladly. Two places I know to find clutch data are 82games.com and nba.com.

Such as: http://www.82games.com/2021/20CLE1.HTM#clutch

82games is a wonderful site for all sorts of +/- and on/off data, but they seem to update less frequently as the years go by; but right now their data is good through 4/5.

nba.com should give you the total "clutch minutes", but 82games indicates we've had 15 instances of "clutch time" and the Cavs have outscored their opponent 10 times. That's what the W-L and Win% indicate. It doesn't mean they actually won the game, however.

Collin's shooting details breaks down the eFG% in to shot type and we can see he has a strong mix of both jumpers and scoring at the rim. We can also see he's rarely assisted on these shots. From his AST48 of 3.9 we also know he's not looking to pass anymore or less in these situations than typical.

Similarly not much of Garland's clutch scoring is assisted either.

Fair to say, we're seeing a lot of hero ball in these situations ... and it's actually working better than what we usually see.

Which has a lot of interesting implications.

For comparison, the all-around clutch leader this season is probably Dame Lillard, and he's been involved in 25 games that qualified. He's also not being assisted very often during "clutch time".

I believe I've mentioned this already, but I'd also suggest anyone interested in stats to dig in to the Cavs home-road split data which is easily available at basketball-reference.


So looking at that link, his net on/off in crunch time is decidedly negative. Whatever he's giving you, his giving up more on the other end.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
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Re: Game 50 : Cleveland Cavaliers (17-32) @ San Antonio Spurs (24-23) - 7:00PM 

Post#40 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:33 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
My biggest concern with Sexton is the absence of growth in other areas of his game basically makes him one of those guys who needs to score a lot just to get to break even on the court, and when his usage is high enough that he's scoring 27, that devalues other offensive players who are playing alongside him. It impacts overall team efficiency on offense.

For example, the Cavs would play Clarkson and Korver at the same time and defenders didn't worry about Clarkson passing to Korver because Clarkson almost never did. As shooting was the only thing Korver did above replacement level, you make him a negative player by playing him alongside Clarkson.

The Cavs tried playing Sexton with primarily defensive personnel and the problem is that he's too easy to defend in those lineups.

I can imagine scenarios where Sexton is a starter surrounded by the right personnel and the Cavs are a playoff team. But it has to be a very specific set of personnel (two-way catch and shoot guys at least one of who can serve as the primary ball handler against press defenses), and even then, the Cavs probably aren't a high-ceiling playoff team. Ideally, he's a sixth man and I'd be happy to pay him towards the high end of that range but I doubt Sexton would happy to accept it.


I can't think of many successful sixth men who organically grew in to that role for the team that drafted them. There's Ginobili who wasn't strictly a sixth man, but was certainly willing to accept whatever role Pops needed from him. It's often a long bumpy road for the others.

Collin's efficiency, however, sets him aside from many of them. His clutch scoring shows he can be a finisher. His potential, his youth, and his willingness to work on his game make it all worth our while to try to figure out how we can get the most from him.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't sense the kind of stubbornness in Collin that would limit his growth. He may just needs to be challenged and focused in the right way so he's getting the most from his work-ethic, drive, and single-mindedness.


You make valid points I just see the other side of the coin. He could grow, he has the potential to become more of a complete player, but will he? How long are we going to continue playing with the roster currently constructed to find out, ect ect

He has the work ethic and drive but court vision and passing ability the way Garland does is not something that is learned. You either have it or you dont type of thing. I dont know if Sexton is ever going to be able to change his overall game to become more balanced offensively.

The fact that he also struggles shooting off the dribble hurts a lot too. There are a lot of 'ifs' with him. My view is just from a timeline aspect. How long are we going to wait to find out IF he can.....


I don't know how long we are going to wait ... GM's often end up making decisions based on roster, value, trade opportunities, personalities, chemistry, talent projection, etc, etc; but I know historically how long it can take to truly find out what you've got in a young player and I think that can reasonably be shortcut as long as the team is providing a productive environment for growth and success by simply monitoring progress and judging willingness to improve.

And of course there are red flags like a player becoming belligerent to coaching.

The fact we already know Collin has a ton of scoring ability is actually pretty good. If we drafted CJ McCollum as a 19year old, we might be waiting another 2 years with him just to find out that he had ability to score 20ppg in the NBA, and another year after that to discover he could do so with decent efficiency, and who knows how long to find out if he could be a #1 option on a contender.

A lot of people just look at years in the league, but years in the league aren't necessarily more conducive to skills growth than years in the NCAA; so I generally look at age.

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