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Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM

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Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#1 » by ducler » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:45 pm

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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#2 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:17 am

It really bothers me how indifferent Sexton is on the defensive end. They better not extend him early.

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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#3 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:21 am

This should probably be Delly's last year in the NBA without a clipboard. If they want to have him fill the Haslem role, that's fine. But he needs to be garbage time player.

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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#4 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:35 am

When the season is over, Kevin Love needs spend a couple weeks thinking about if he still wants to play in the NBA. If the answer is yes, then he needs to rededicate himself, body and soul.

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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#5 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:22 am

One thing that annoys me about Bickerstaff is that it seems like other teams are able to influence the way the game is called in a way that we are not.

We had this game won and the Hornets just junked it up. To add insult to injury, I counted three blatant offensive fouls where Rozier and Miles just pushed away the defender.

I like Allen, Nance, Hartenstein, and Wade, but we need an enforcer type big who can come in and make the officials find their whistles if we're getting bullied.

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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#6 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:58 am

Hartenstein with another 10 points off the bench on 5 for 5 shooting. Kid is a keeper.

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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#7 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:02 pm

jbk1234 wrote:This should probably be Delly's last year in the NBA without a clipboard. If they want to have him fill the Haslem role, that's fine. But he needs to be garbage time player.


His struggle to score the ball is becoming epic, but inspite of that, he's averaging 10 assists per 36. He's basically running a passing clinic on the floor for our young guards showing them what's possible in live action even when nobody respects his ability to drive or shoot.

I mean frankly, it should either be inspiring or embarrassing.

Hopefully we pay some attention to the backup PG position this off-season; but is it possible Altman is afraid of what JBB would do with a half competent PG? We've seen him trade vets to force his coaches hand in the past.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#8 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:11 pm

jbk1234 wrote:When the season is over, Kevin Love needs spend a couple weeks thinking about if he still wants to play in the NBA. If the answer is yes, then he needs to rededicate himself, body and soul.


Not that there's much of it, but need to give him some more time to play his way back in to game shape; but what if he's content collecting his $30M and filling the veteran leader role? We simply can't expect him to walk away from his contract.

What would you have the Cavs do? Bench him and start Wade or perhaps a rook we draft?

Normally, I'd expect them to be super patient, probably well in to next season; but that's assuming Dan doesn't hit the panic button and start firing people this off-season.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#9 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:18 pm

jbk1234 wrote:One thing that annoys me about Bickerstaff is that it seems like other teams are able to influence the way the game is called in a way that we are not.

We had this game won and the Hornets just junked it up. To add insult to injury, I counted three blatant offensive fouls where Rozier and Miles just pushed away the defender.

I like Allen, Nance, Hartenstein, and Wade, but we need an enforcer type big who can come in and make the officials find their whistles if we're getting bullied.


I read a comment from Draymond Green this morning, where he was talking about getting upset with having to pay fines for technical fouls as a rookie (relatively big chunk of his salary) until Richard Jefferson told him that he'd make all of that money back and then some come contract time. I thought that was an interesting perspective.

Perhaps when we acquired Hartenstein, we were hoping to harness his propensity to foul? He's still averaging over 5 per 36 with the Cavs. He just needs to get the most out of them.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#10 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:24 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:This should probably be Delly's last year in the NBA without a clipboard. If they want to have him fill the Haslem role, that's fine. But he needs to be garbage time player.


His struggle to score the ball is becoming epic, but inspite of that, he's averaging 10 assists per 36. He's basically running a passing clinic on the floor for our young guards showing them what's possible in live action even when nobody respects his ability to drive or shoot.

I mean frankly, it should either be inspiring or embarrassing.

Hopefully we pay some attention to the backup PG position this off-season; but is it possible Altman is afraid of what JBB would do with a half competent PG? We've seen him trade vets to force his coaches hand in the past.


Delly's complete inability to score will inevitably impact his ability to pass the same way Sexton's unwillingness to pass eventually impacted his ability to score. The difference is Sexton was able to figure it, even if it took him three years, and I'm not sure there's anything for Delly to *figure out* at this stage in his career.

The Cavs really need a NBA caliber backup PG and that's been true since Delly got concussed and Exum got injured. I think after the West Coast trip, the writing was on the wall and if Altman was forcing anything, it was the reality that another lottery pick was more important to this team than a play-in game.

I was hopeful that the Wolves might swap Rubio for Prince, even if the Cavs tossed in a second, but I'm not sure that with the way the season ended for Prince the Wolves will go for it. I have a difficult time seeing Love putting in the off the court work that would allow the Cavs to continue to start him and if Rubio were in the second unit it would probably be an easier pill to swallow.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:When the season is over, Kevin Love needs spend a couple weeks thinking about if he still wants to play in the NBA. If the answer is yes, then he needs to rededicate himself, body and soul.


Not that there's much of it, but need to give him some more time to play his way back in to game shape; but what if he's content collecting his $30M and filling the veteran leader role? We simply can't expect him to walk away from his contract.

What would you have the Cavs do? Bench him and start Wade or perhaps a rook we draft?

Normally, I'd expect them to be super patient, probably well in to next season; but that's assuming Dan doesn't hit the panic button and start firing people this off-season.


I'm 100% starting Nance next season if Love doesn't show up to training camp looking like he worked out with LBJ all summer.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#12 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:06 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:This should probably be Delly's last year in the NBA without a clipboard. If they want to have him fill the Haslem role, that's fine. But he needs to be garbage time player.


His struggle to score the ball is becoming epic, but inspite of that, he's averaging 10 assists per 36. He's basically running a passing clinic on the floor for our young guards showing them what's possible in live action even when nobody respects his ability to drive or shoot.

I mean frankly, it should either be inspiring or embarrassing.

Hopefully we pay some attention to the backup PG position this off-season; but is it possible Altman is afraid of what JBB would do with a half competent PG? We've seen him trade vets to force his coaches hand in the past.


Delly's complete inability to score will inevitably impact his ability to pass the same way Sexton's unwillingness to pass eventually impacted his ability to score. The difference is Sexton was able to figure it, even if it took him three years, and I'm not sure there's anything for Delly to *figure out* at this stage in his career.

The Cavs really need a NBA caliber backup PG and that's been true since Delly got concussed and Exum got injured. I think after the West Coast trip, the writing was on the wall and if Altman was forcing anything, it was the reality that another lottery pick was more important to this team than a play-in game.

I was hopeful that the Wolves might swap Rubio for Prince, even if the Cavs tossed in a second, but I'm not sure that with the way the season ended for Prince the Wolves will go for it. I have a difficult time seeing Love putting in the off the court work that would allow the Cavs to continue to start him and if Rubio were in the second unit it would probably be an easier pill to swallow.


I was hearing we had a deal in place for Prince at the deadline, but it fizzled when he got hurt ... alas, no clue who it might had involved.

I wonder if Rubio and Love would welcome being on the same team again at this point in their careers?

His shooting which was never good has gotten worse this year, even if he could co-exist with Love, I'm not sure he'd be Altman's preference. He keeps bringing in combo guards with some shooting ability suggesting he's trying to keep up the same style of play he has with Sexland ... or perhaps again make sure neither of them are replaced in the starting lneup by JBB because he finally has someone who understands how to run a team.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#13 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:17 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:When the season is over, Kevin Love needs spend a couple weeks thinking about if he still wants to play in the NBA. If the answer is yes, then he needs to rededicate himself, body and soul.


Not that there's much of it, but need to give him some more time to play his way back in to game shape; but what if he's content collecting his $30M and filling the veteran leader role? We simply can't expect him to walk away from his contract.

What would you have the Cavs do? Bench him and start Wade or perhaps a rook we draft?

Normally, I'd expect them to be super patient, probably well in to next season; but that's assuming Dan doesn't hit the panic button and start firing people this off-season.


I'm 100% starting Nance next season if Love doesn't show up to training camp looking like he worked out with LBJ all summer.


That makes sense and Larry's splits as a starter are solid, but it would be nice if we had someone we could trust to hold up to playing starter's minutes; and my bar is lower for Kevin than yours ... I'm still thinking he'd be useful if he can just get his feet back under him and be a legit 2nd or 3rd option.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#14 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:47 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Not that there's much of it, but need to give him some more time to play his way back in to game shape; but what if he's content collecting his $30M and filling the veteran leader role? We simply can't expect him to walk away from his contract.

What would you have the Cavs do? Bench him and start Wade or perhaps a rook we draft?

Normally, I'd expect them to be super patient, probably well in to next season; but that's assuming Dan doesn't hit the panic button and start firing people this off-season.


I'm 100% starting Nance next season if Love doesn't show up to training camp looking like he worked out with LBJ all summer.


That makes sense and Larry's splits as a starter are solid, but it would be nice if we had someone we could trust to hold up to playing starter's minutes; and my bar is lower for Kevin than yours ... I'm still thinking he'd be useful if he can just get his feet back under him and be a legit 2nd or 3rd option.


I think there's a chance he can work his way back into a net positive starter. But he's not there now and I'm not starting him because of how much he's paid or to try to increase his trade value. That ship has sailed. He has to want to put in the work, both on and off the court. He's no longer good enough to coast, complain about non-calls, take plays off, etc. We've paid him roughly $1M per game he's played over the last three years. He can spend some of this offseason putting in real work.

And if he doesn't want to do that, then it's probably time for him to start thinking about how, when, and where he wants to end his career. But as I repeatedly say, players have a say in how things go.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#15 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:59 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
His struggle to score the ball is becoming epic, but inspite of that, he's averaging 10 assists per 36. He's basically running a passing clinic on the floor for our young guards showing them what's possible in live action even when nobody respects his ability to drive or shoot.

I mean frankly, it should either be inspiring or embarrassing.

Hopefully we pay some attention to the backup PG position this off-season; but is it possible Altman is afraid of what JBB would do with a half competent PG? We've seen him trade vets to force his coaches hand in the past.


Delly's complete inability to score will inevitably impact his ability to pass the same way Sexton's unwillingness to pass eventually impacted his ability to score. The difference is Sexton was able to figure it, even if it took him three years, and I'm not sure there's anything for Delly to *figure out* at this stage in his career.

The Cavs really need a NBA caliber backup PG and that's been true since Delly got concussed and Exum got injured. I think after the West Coast trip, the writing was on the wall and if Altman was forcing anything, it was the reality that another lottery pick was more important to this team than a play-in game.

I was hopeful that the Wolves might swap Rubio for Prince, even if the Cavs tossed in a second, but I'm not sure that with the way the season ended for Prince the Wolves will go for it. I have a difficult time seeing Love putting in the off the court work that would allow the Cavs to continue to start him and if Rubio were in the second unit it would probably be an easier pill to swallow.


I was hearing we had a deal in place for Prince at the deadline, but it fizzled when he got hurt ... alas, no clue who it might had involved.

I wonder if Rubio and Love would welcome being on the same team again at this point in their careers?

His shooting which was never good has gotten worse this year, even if he could co-exist with Love, I'm not sure he'd be Altman's preference. He keeps bringing in combo guards with some shooting ability suggesting he's trying to keep up the same style of play he has with Sexland ... or perhaps again make sure neither of them are replaced in the starting lneup by JBB because he finally has someone who understands how to run a team.


Garland is averaging six assists per game his second year in the NBA. That's 20th in the entire league, not just at PG, but every position and on a team that sucks in terms of made threes. The reality is that a lineup with Allen and Okoro is going to have offensive limitations absent an all star at PF. The difference between Hartenstein and Allen is more pronounced than I'm comfortable with given the fact that Allen is about to get an offer and with Hartenstein having a PO this summer.

I am encouraged with Okoro's post all star break performance. There's some growth and the potential for a lot more. The first half of that GS game where they tried to hide Curry on him and he exploited it felt promising.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#16 » by Stillwater » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:12 pm

Cavs are falling out of any run at the play in and it seems fairly obvious they are caring even less to the point that the ones who rarely give up are getting disgruntled and the obvious health issues around the league havent helped. I don't buy ot was a coincidence the one game he misses the team looks significantly better prepared and significantly more effective... I will tell you why , it's because too much coaching is the problem some of the time. JBB needs to STFU and sit the f down when things are not working and trust his coaching staff
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#17 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:34 pm

Stillwater wrote:Cavs are falling out of any run at the play in and it seems fairly obvious they are caring even less to the point that the ones who rarely give up are getting disgruntled and the obvious health issues around the league havent helped. I don't buy ot was a coincidence the one game he misses the team looks significantly better prepared and significantly more effective... I will tell you why , it's because too much coaching is the problem some of the time. JBB needs to STFU and sit the f down when things are not working and trust his coaching staff


This is magical thinking. The Cavs have more issue than a change in coaches will fix. KPJ lost his **** and had to get shipped out. The Allen trade, which was still the right move, sent Drummond off the deep end. Nance has played 34 games. Love has only played in 16 games and has been in NBA shape for none of them? We've gone the entire season without a legitimate NBA-caliber backup PG. Cedi had the worst season of his career. Windler failed to meet expectations (a tiny bit of this might be on coaching). Prince turned out to be exactly who he was when we traded for him - a streaky shooter who isn't a net positive when his shot isn't falling. We've played bench units that consisted primarily of G League guys during multiple games this season.

All of this is before you get into the fact that starting Garland and Sexton together really strains your ability to get stops and the starting lineup doesn't have enough offensively without both of them to beat anyone.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#18 » by Stillwater » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:02 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Cavs are falling out of any run at the play in and it seems fairly obvious they are caring even less to the point that the ones who rarely give up are getting disgruntled and the obvious health issues around the league havent helped. I don't buy ot was a coincidence the one game he misses the team looks significantly better prepared and significantly more effective... I will tell you why , it's because too much coaching is the problem some of the time. JBB needs to STFU and sit the f down when things are not working and trust his coaching staff


This is magical thinking. The Cavs have more issue than a change in coaches will fix. KPJ lost his **** and had to get shipped out. The Allen trade, which was still the right move, sent Drummond off the deep end. Nance has played 34 games. Love has only played in 16 games and has been in NBA shape for none of them? We've gone the entire season without a legitimate NBA-caliber backup PG. Cedi had the worst season of his career. Windler failed to meet expectations (a tiny bit of this might be on coaching). Prince turned out to be exactly who he was when we traded for him - a streaky shooter who isn't a net positive when his shot isn't falling. We've played bench units that consisted primarily of G League guys during multiple games this season.

All of this is before you get into the fact that starting Garland and Sexton together really strains your ability to get stops and the starting lineup doesn't have enough offensively without both of them to beat anyone.

based on your opinion only... which in this case is pretty far removed from the same galaxy that this org is operating in
JBB is not the only problem for sure, but I have seen teams that needed more rope like this several times over the years and it is always the same thing. Nobody needs to be coached at the same level. Okoro might need JBB in his ear all game or maybe somebody else but in the end Sexton and garland for sure played better without it.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#19 » by JonFromVA » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:09 pm

Stillwater wrote:Cavs are falling out of any run at the play in and it seems fairly obvious they are caring even less to the point that the ones who rarely give up are getting disgruntled and the obvious health issues around the league havent helped. I don't buy ot was a coincidence the one game he misses the team looks significantly better prepared and significantly more effective... I will tell you why , it's because too much coaching is the problem some of the time. JBB needs to STFU and sit the f down when things are not working and trust his coaching staff


If we don't finish the season decently, I think the heat is going to climb on JBB. Not so much because of one game, but because he will have been unsuccessful in running anything that looks like a modern offense or defense.

It seems whenever we have a new wrinkle, a new player, or a new coach good things happen, and that just tells me the Cavs settle back in to being way too predictable too readily.
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Re: Game 59 : Cleveland Cavaliers (21-37) @ Charlotte Hornets (28-30) - 8:00PM 

Post#20 » by jbk1234 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:07 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Cavs are falling out of any run at the play in and it seems fairly obvious they are caring even less to the point that the ones who rarely give up are getting disgruntled and the obvious health issues around the league havent helped. I don't buy ot was a coincidence the one game he misses the team looks significantly better prepared and significantly more effective... I will tell you why , it's because too much coaching is the problem some of the time. JBB needs to STFU and sit the f down when things are not working and trust his coaching staff


This is magical thinking. The Cavs have more issue than a change in coaches will fix. KPJ lost his **** and had to get shipped out. The Allen trade, which was still the right move, sent Drummond off the deep end. Nance has played 34 games. Love has only played in 16 games and has been in NBA shape for none of them? We've gone the entire season without a legitimate NBA-caliber backup PG. Cedi had the worst season of his career. Windler failed to meet expectations (a tiny bit of this might be on coaching). Prince turned out to be exactly who he was when we traded for him - a streaky shooter who isn't a net positive when his shot isn't falling. We've played bench units that consisted primarily of G League guys during multiple games this season.

All of this is before you get into the fact that starting Garland and Sexton together really strains your ability to get stops and the starting lineup doesn't have enough offensively without both of them to beat anyone.

based on your opinion only... which in this case is pretty far removed from the same galaxy that this org is operating in
JBB is not the only problem for sure, but I have seen teams that needed more rope like this several times over the years and it is always the same thing. Nobody needs to be coached at the same level. Okoro might need JBB in his ear all game or maybe somebody else but in the end Sexton and garland for sure played better without it.
This is so absurd I don't know where to begin. Seriously, how good do you think the Cavs, or any team, not Sexton himself, but the team, is going to be with Sexton doing whatever he wants? How many more losses is it going to take?

But I already know the answer and it's infinite losses because you'll always find an excuse. His teammates, the roster, the coaching, etc.

Again, the NBA is a professional league and maybe 5-10 players are good enough to do whatever they want and still win. The rest of them have to work on those parts of their games they'd rather ignore, listen to the coaches, and do what's best for the team.

Sexton is maybe 75% the player Kyrie is and Kyrie on his own isn't leading even a good team anywhere.

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