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Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM

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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#61 » by toooskies » Thu May 13, 2021 5:13 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I've seen enough to know that handing Sexton a big contract is not good risk management. I'd straight up tell him he hasn't shown enough on the defensive end of the floor to justify that type of commitment, but that if he's able to change that next season, we're willing to revisit the following summer. The Cavs are free to tell him whatever they like. Just don't make a mistake you won't be able to unwind for years.

I get the concerns of overpaying someone and having it hold the org hostage like KLove is. However Sexton is not a injury liability and despite your claims about not doing enough defensively you give a pass to DG despite being a meh defender as well. You can argue until blue in the cheeks about it and DG being better but neither one is a + defender and never will be so if that is important in the final determination of contract valuations so be it, but offensive only players are always paid more than 2 way role players CLE is a small market that has to overpay etc. It is the sad realty and if anything I would hope that Sexton would prefer to be a part of this org enough to take a discount , but as is the odds are better he and the org are growing farther apart if they continue to put garbage around him and he continues to get **** from a delusional fan base that expects him to pass like a 1 guard playing next to a guard who cant do anything but pass and has the keys etc.
Let me be clear, the only time it's smart for a team to extend a young player on a rookie contract is if 1) it's a team friendly deal; or 2) the guy is a no brainer max player and you don't want him anywhere near the RFA market.

This applies to Garland as well as Sexton. You can always match an offer later or even offer the player a max deal on day one of F.A.like the Cavs did with Kyrie. What you can't do is get out a time machine and unextend a player after a disappointing fourth year as the Wolves found out with Wiggins and the Kings found out Buddy.

Just don't do it and don't let an agent convince you that hurt feelings are a good reason to make that type of commitment because they're not.

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Hield and Wiggins are bad comparisons and you could tell an extension was a bad idea for very obvious reasons. Neither were good creators, Hield was older in his rookie season than Sexton will be NEXT year, and Wiggins can't shoot. There are ceiling limits there that aren't as obvious for Sexton, although there is one on the defensive side of the ball.

I could use Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell as closer references for Sexton than Hield or Wiggins, guys who could score but had questions about how much value they were adding. Booker was a high scorer on a bad team, just like Sexton. Mitchell was much better offensively than defensively, but luckily landed on an already decent team that needed the scoring because they have other high-level talent in Gobert and Conley and role players in Ingles whose strengths aren't scoring. Is Sexton as good as Booker and Mitchell were at his age? Probably not, both offensively and defensively. But this is who his agent is going to try to compare him to.

Perhaps the closest comparison, though, is Zach LaVine. Talented scorer, but behind Sexton after three years. Has always struggled on the defensive end. Traded with other assets for an All-Star who empowered himself out of his situation. Has consistently developed on the offensive end, hit RFA and got a $20m/year offer from SAC that the CHI matched. Developed into an All-Star. Still not sure how good a team with him on it can be!

Point being, he's right at the level where you build around him or trade him, but he's earning $23-25m/year easily and it's not a big leap to the max in future projection. I know you don't think he's worth that, and if the Cavs agree they should trade him while the buyer still gets 1-2 cheap years (or use him as super-sweetener to offload Love's deal).
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#62 » by Harper4Ferry? » Thu May 13, 2021 8:35 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
He'll be untradeable on either deal. I don't understand how so may fans can watch three years of 20 point losses and think any type of extension in that range is a good idea. I really don't get it.


I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a horrible deal. But looking at years of history, guys like Sexton(high volume scorers who are on the team they're drafted by) are almost always overpaid and maxed after their 3rd season. Only player really comparable might be Jaylen Brown who took 25million a season instead of the max and that was coming off only scoring 13ppg.

My personal opinion is that I would trade Sexton before I'd max him. And I'd probably consider the same with Garland(too small, unless he wants to shoot 10 3's a game he's a liability). I'd only really keep Okoro(who might also suck, but is worth keeping to find out), Allen(at 4/100ish), Hartenstein, maybe Prince and Nance(even though he's always hurt) on the current roster. And I'd find another coach.


If we're going down that rabbit hole, the first move has got to be to fire Koby Altman and let the new GM worry about the coach.

Because basically you're saying there's a fairly high chance he just wasted the past 4 seasons.



I mean it seems fairly obvious he just wasted 3 years of rebuild.
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#63 » by JonFromVA » Thu May 13, 2021 9:32 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a horrible deal. But looking at years of history, guys like Sexton(high volume scorers who are on the team they're drafted by) are almost always overpaid and maxed after their 3rd season. Only player really comparable might be Jaylen Brown who took 25million a season instead of the max and that was coming off only scoring 13ppg.

My personal opinion is that I would trade Sexton before I'd max him. And I'd probably consider the same with Garland(too small, unless he wants to shoot 10 3's a game he's a liability). I'd only really keep Okoro(who might also suck, but is worth keeping to find out), Allen(at 4/100ish), Hartenstein, maybe Prince and Nance(even though he's always hurt) on the current roster. And I'd find another coach.


If we're going down that rabbit hole, the first move has got to be to fire Koby Altman and let the new GM worry about the coach.

Because basically you're saying there's a fairly high chance he just wasted the past 4 seasons.



I mean it seems fairly obvious he just wasted 3 years of rebuild.


I dialed it back one more because if Sexton is a tosser, then we could have at least traded Irving for something that could have helped us compete for the championship - that didn't have red flagged medicals.

I'm holding out hope because a) 19 year olds can take a long time to develop and b) what else is there for Cleveland sports teams?
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#64 » by jbk1234 » Fri May 14, 2021 3:33 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a horrible deal. But looking at years of history, guys like Sexton(high volume scorers who are on the team they're drafted by) are almost always overpaid and maxed after their 3rd season. Only player really comparable might be Jaylen Brown who took 25million a season instead of the max and that was coming off only scoring 13ppg.

My personal opinion is that I would trade Sexton before I'd max him. And I'd probably consider the same with Garland(too small, unless he wants to shoot 10 3's a game he's a liability). I'd only really keep Okoro(who might also suck, but is worth keeping to find out), Allen(at 4/100ish), Hartenstein, maybe Prince and Nance(even though he's always hurt) on the current roster. And I'd find another coach.


If we're going down that rabbit hole, the first move has got to be to fire Koby Altman and let the new GM worry about the coach.

Because basically you're saying there's a fairly high chance he just wasted the past 4 seasons.



I mean it seems fairly obvious he just wasted 3 years of rebuild.
I don't think that's fair. Sexton, Garland, Okoro, and Windler are all still on the roster and two of those players have pretty good trade value. Okoro shows real promise. The Allen trade was a W. Hartenstein was supposed to be a throw in.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#65 » by JonFromVA » Fri May 14, 2021 7:31 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
If we're going down that rabbit hole, the first move has got to be to fire Koby Altman and let the new GM worry about the coach.

Because basically you're saying there's a fairly high chance he just wasted the past 4 seasons.



I mean it seems fairly obvious he just wasted 3 years of rebuild.
I don't think that's fair. Sexton, Garland, Okoro, and Windler are all still on the roster and two of those players have pretty good trade value. Okoro shows real promise. The Allen trade was a W. Hartenstein was supposed to be a throw in.


It's not fair, but there is a chance it's not wrong either because none of our young players (besides Allen) has yet to demonstrate they know how to contribute to winning.

But IMO if something condemns Altman this off-season, it won't be the players he picked (he objectively did a solid job with where we were slotted); but the fact the Cavs have come up short of their goal of competing for a playoff spot. We're 10 or 11 games out of the play-in tournament, which is kind of ridiculous.

And if we're going to blame injuries (rather than a lack of roster depth) how can they not considering firing their training staff?
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#66 » by toooskies » Fri May 14, 2021 9:20 pm

It's hard to say what injuries at the end of the year are "precautionary" absences that the guys could have played through if we were pushing for wins, but most of Nance's were flukes, and you can't do much to help out with concussions. (We've missed a lot of games to concussions this year...)
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#67 » by Stillwater » Fri May 14, 2021 9:50 pm

toooskies wrote:It's hard to say what injuries at the end of the year are "precautionary" absences that the guys could have played through if we were pushing for wins, but most of Nance's were flukes, and you can't do much to help out with concussions. (We've missed a lot of games to concussions this year...)

I am actually really worried about LNJ and the Crohn's which is pretty terrible from what I have read about it and might be what caused his sudden weight loss and that thing that happened last month when he was out with the mystery illness.
I dont know if it will happen again but if so he could be a figure head bench guy and useless for the Cavs which is sad as hell given how well he started the season
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#68 » by JonFromVA » Fri May 14, 2021 9:56 pm

toooskies wrote:It's hard to say what injuries at the end of the year are "precautionary" absences that the guys could have played through if we were pushing for wins, but most of Nance's were flukes, and you can't do much to help out with concussions. (We've missed a lot of games to concussions this year...)


The people making the determination will understand the underlying circumstances, but on the surface it's pretty pathetic we've been one of the worst teams in minutes lost to injuries for multiple years. We've barely even lost any games due to Covid protocol.

John Beilein sure would have loved Isaac Okoro, though ... what the heck was he doing going back in the Celtics' game after twisting his ankle? That kid is going to be ready for war ... if we ever go to war.
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#69 » by JonFromVA » Fri May 14, 2021 10:07 pm

Stillwater wrote:
toooskies wrote:It's hard to say what injuries at the end of the year are "precautionary" absences that the guys could have played through if we were pushing for wins, but most of Nance's were flukes, and you can't do much to help out with concussions. (We've missed a lot of games to concussions this year...)

I am actually really worried about LNJ and the Crohn's which is pretty terrible from what I have read about it and might be what caused his sudden weight loss and that thing that happened last month when he was out with the mystery illness.
I dont know if it will happen again but if so he could be a figure head bench guy and useless for the Cavs which is sad as hell given how well he started the season


It wasn't that much of a mystery ... Larry had the flu, and yes, Crohn's make him more susceptible to catching an infection like the flu and can make the impact of it much worse.

The disease can also limit his ability to take in nutrition and stay hydrated ... so, yeah, expanding his minutes can be problematic.
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#70 » by Stillwater » Fri May 14, 2021 10:27 pm

I didnt know he just had influenza but I can assure you the Crohns has everything to do with the massive weight loss if that was the case. I never heard anyone say he had the flu though
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#71 » by toooskies » Sun May 16, 2021 5:07 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
toooskies wrote:It's hard to say what injuries at the end of the year are "precautionary" absences that the guys could have played through if we were pushing for wins, but most of Nance's were flukes, and you can't do much to help out with concussions. (We've missed a lot of games to concussions this year...)

I am actually really worried about LNJ and the Crohn's which is pretty terrible from what I have read about it and might be what caused his sudden weight loss and that thing that happened last month when he was out with the mystery illness.
I dont know if it will happen again but if so he could be a figure head bench guy and useless for the Cavs which is sad as hell given how well he started the season


It wasn't that much of a mystery ... Larry had the flu, and yes, Crohn's make him more susceptible to catching an infection like the flu and can make the impact of it much worse.

The disease can also limit his ability to take in nutrition and stay hydrated ... so, yeah, expanding his minutes can be problematic.


None of the news reports mentioned the flu or even flu-like symptoms. They all said "mystery illness" where all the tests (including ones to detect the flu, presumably) came back negative, and whether his Crohn's affected it was undetermined. Maybe that's all a smokescreen to keep his value up, but I prefer not to assume a conspiracy without evidence.
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#72 » by Stillwater » Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm

SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Game 68: Dallas Mavericks (39-28) @ Cleveland Cavaliers (21-46) - 7.30PM 

Post#73 » by JonFromVA » Sun May 16, 2021 5:20 pm

toooskies wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I am actually really worried about LNJ and the Crohn's which is pretty terrible from what I have read about it and might be what caused his sudden weight loss and that thing that happened last month when he was out with the mystery illness.
I dont know if it will happen again but if so he could be a figure head bench guy and useless for the Cavs which is sad as hell given how well he started the season


It wasn't that much of a mystery ... Larry had the flu, and yes, Crohn's make him more susceptible to catching an infection like the flu and can make the impact of it much worse.

The disease can also limit his ability to take in nutrition and stay hydrated ... so, yeah, expanding his minutes can be problematic.


None of the news reports mentioned the flu or even flu-like symptoms. They all said "mystery illness" where all the tests (including ones to detect the flu, presumably) came back negative, and whether his Crohn's affected it was undetermined. Maybe that's all a smokescreen to keep his value up, but I prefer not to assume a conspiracy without evidence.


I thought I saw it mentioned on an injury report, but I can't find a link for you ... so I probably shouldn't had said anything. Please ignore and assume the worst if you'd like.

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