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poll if 7th

Moderator: jbk1234

Cavs have best odds for 7th so with chalk taken who you want them to take or do?

Poll ended at Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am

make a trade up or down
2
67%
pick Jalen Johnson
0
No votes
pick Keon Johnson
0
No votes
pick Kai Jones
0
No votes
pick Sengun
0
No votes
pick Moody
0
No votes
pick Giddey
0
No votes
pick Kispert
0
No votes
pick Isaiah Todd
0
No votes
pick someone not listed
1
33%
 
Total votes: 3

jbk1234
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#101 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jun 6, 2021 3:41 am

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I'm not saying it doesn't, but we are not talking about a 1&2 week sample size. We were #1 in defense, assists and steals like 1.5 months into the season.

The biggest issue is how it went from that, all the way the dead last in the league in everything. Regression was expected, but regression to where they finished the year was much to far of a fall
It was a 20 game sample size over the softer part of our schedule. We were relatively healthy and well rested. Many of the teams we played were not. Again, teams began to scout Sexton and game plan against him.

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It wasn't the fact of who we were playing that I'm talking about, it was how we were playing.

Our offense actually looked like something a NBA coach drew up with passing passing passing passing and our defense was played with aggression.

Our schedule getting harder should not change the entire philosophy of our offense and make us go from playing aggressively on defense to playing passively and weak.

Effort isn't something that should fluctuate depending on strength of schedule.
It's easier to execute offense against teams who aren't good defensively and/or haven't put it together yet. Also, both Sexton and Garland were shooting at unsustainably high percentages to start the season. Prince is a streaky shooter who was shooting lights out when he first got here. Drummond has a pretty high variance depending on the match up.

But really, a big part of the NBA is scouting other teams' tendencies, the Cavs run a really basic offense, and everyone knows Sexton wants to drive to the rim. Even Garland got too reliant on the same two or three plays off the high PNR with Allen towards the end of the season. It obviously didn't help that Nance and Love missed large portions of the season, our bench players couldn't hit an open 3, or we effectively played the entire season without a backup PG.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#102 » by JonFromVA » Sun Jun 6, 2021 1:18 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:TT was a good matchup against the Warriors because they played small with Draymond and tried to force switches all the time. But outside of that specific context, where the Cavs could afford to play 4 on 5 offensively due to having elite offensive players at other positions, TT simply wasn't very good.

Klutch knew it which is why they held him out rather than allow him to play on the Q.O. after his Finals series. The rest of the league knew it which is why no team presented an offer sheet he would actually sign. The first time he was actually an unrestricted F.A., he got the MLE. It's not even clear that the league views TT on a MLE deal as a good contract.


Just not true ... he and Timo played Bogut off the floor in the 2015 finals causing the Warriors to go small. Fact is TT was at best a situational Center that was forced in to playing Center for the sake of floor spacing and the lack of a stretch-5 option. He still held his own against his draft peers like Valanciunas and Kanter as well as the Horford, Millsap's, Gibson's of our playoff opponents.

Like I already said, the Cavs bumped up their offer slightly to end his hold out, but he got paid barely more than his initial offer. Of course he was worth the most to the Cavs because we were already over the cap.
I'm honestly confused by this post. TT's natural position has always been center (albeit an undersized, one-way center). Even before the Warriors turned the NBA into a three point contest, your PF was expected to be able to at least hit an elbow jumper. You can't really play him next to a traditional center.

Anyway, my point is that TT is an MLE player, and had he not been surrounded by Kyrie, Love, and LBJ, likely never would've gotten a contract for more than that. He's the example as to why committing to, or paying a player based on infinite projection is dangerous. Because some times what you see is what you get.


Tristan is not on the same arc as the players we've been talking about, but his game still improved quite a bit within the constraints we used him. As long as he was willing to go full out, he would have continued to earn his contract, but Kardashian's are not something that can be predicted.

One of Tristan's peers, Enes Kanter was traded at the deadline of his 4th season. Completely justified too, he didn't look like a player that could help a team win because of his defense ... in spite of that OKC ended up matching a 4yr/70M max offer sheet for him.

Jonas Valanciunas, otoh, was extended by the Raptors after his 3rd season to the tune of 4 years at $64M. The Raptors ended up trading him in large part because they'd seen the Cavs play him off the floor. In the meantime, he's been a big part of Memphis's rebuild and his stats have continued to climb.

IMO, Utah dodged a bullet, the Raptors sold part of their future for a championship, and the Cavs kept a player who helped us win a championship.

I'm not sure what this tells us about Sexton, Garland, or Okoro who are going to have a very different trajectory and expectations than a PF or C, but it may help inform us what to do with Jarrett Allen.
jbk1234
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#103 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jun 6, 2021 3:10 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Just not true ... he and Timo played Bogut off the floor in the 2015 finals causing the Warriors to go small. Fact is TT was at best a situational Center that was forced in to playing Center for the sake of floor spacing and the lack of a stretch-5 option. He still held his own against his draft peers like Valanciunas and Kanter as well as the Horford, Millsap's, Gibson's of our playoff opponents.

Like I already said, the Cavs bumped up their offer slightly to end his hold out, but he got paid barely more than his initial offer. Of course he was worth the most to the Cavs because we were already over the cap.
I'm honestly confused by this post. TT's natural position has always been center (albeit an undersized, one-way center). Even before the Warriors turned the NBA into a three point contest, your PF was expected to be able to at least hit an elbow jumper. You can't really play him next to a traditional center.

Anyway, my point is that TT is an MLE player, and had he not been surrounded by Kyrie, Love, and LBJ, likely never would've gotten a contract for more than that. He's the example as to why committing to, or paying a player based on infinite projection is dangerous. Because some times what you see is what you get.


Tristan is not on the same arc as the players we've been talking about, but his game still improved quite a bit within the constraints we used him. As long as he was willing to go full out, he would have continued to earn his contract, but Kardashian's are not something that can be predicted.

One of Tristan's peers, Enes Kanter was traded at the deadline of his 4th season. Completely justified too, he didn't look like a player that could help a team win because of his defense ... in spite of that OKC ended up matching a 4yr/70M max offer sheet for him.

Jonas Valanciunas, otoh, was extended by the Raptors after his 3rd season to the tune of 4 years at $64M. The Raptors ended up trading him in large part because they'd seen the Cavs play him off the floor. In the meantime, he's been a big part of Memphis's rebuild and his stats have continued to climb.

IMO, Utah dodged a bullet, the Raptors sold part of their future for a championship, and the Cavs kept a player who helped us win a championship.

I'm not sure what this tells us about Sexton, Garland, or Okoro who are going to have a very different trajectory and expectations than a PF or C, but it may help inform us what to do with Jarrett Allen.
His improvements over the course of that rookie contract were, and this being charitable, linear. There was no exponential growth. There were people who projected he would continue to improve and eventually be worth that contract. He didn't.

It had nothing to do with effort or the Kardashians either. Some of TT's worst performances were the result of him trying to do too much after LBJ left. He was a good fit on a team with Love, LBJ, JR, and Kyrie. He was a good matchup against the Warriors. But outside of those circumstances, he's an MLE guy and I'm not even sure he's viewed positively on that contract.

Last year Malik Monk was untradable because of a good month towards the end of season and it's not even clear the Hornets will match a full MLE offer on him this summer. They're in a similar situation with Graham. Imagine if the Hornets extended those guys last season based on their third year evaluations. They'd be a tax team trading a lottery pick to get out and still wouldn't have cap space to give fill their hole at center.

You have four years to evaluate, you should use them all unless it's a no brainer situation or the player is willing to sign a team-friendly extension.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#104 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jun 7, 2021 1:30 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm honestly confused by this post. TT's natural position has always been center (albeit an undersized, one-way center). Even before the Warriors turned the NBA into a three point contest, your PF was expected to be able to at least hit an elbow jumper. You can't really play him next to a traditional center.

Anyway, my point is that TT is an MLE player, and had he not been surrounded by Kyrie, Love, and LBJ, likely never would've gotten a contract for more than that. He's the example as to why committing to, or paying a player based on infinite projection is dangerous. Because some times what you see is what you get.


Tristan is not on the same arc as the players we've been talking about, but his game still improved quite a bit within the constraints we used him. As long as he was willing to go full out, he would have continued to earn his contract, but Kardashian's are not something that can be predicted.

One of Tristan's peers, Enes Kanter was traded at the deadline of his 4th season. Completely justified too, he didn't look like a player that could help a team win because of his defense ... in spite of that OKC ended up matching a 4yr/70M max offer sheet for him.

Jonas Valanciunas, otoh, was extended by the Raptors after his 3rd season to the tune of 4 years at $64M. The Raptors ended up trading him in large part because they'd seen the Cavs play him off the floor. In the meantime, he's been a big part of Memphis's rebuild and his stats have continued to climb.

IMO, Utah dodged a bullet, the Raptors sold part of their future for a championship, and the Cavs kept a player who helped us win a championship.

I'm not sure what this tells us about Sexton, Garland, or Okoro who are going to have a very different trajectory and expectations than a PF or C, but it may help inform us what to do with Jarrett Allen.
His improvements over the course of that rookie contract were, and this being charitable, linear. There was no exponential growth. There were people who projected he would continue to improve and eventually be worth that contract. He didn't.

It had nothing to do with effort or the Kardashians either. Some of TT's worst performances were the result of him trying to do too much after LBJ left. He was a good fit on a team with Love, LBJ, JR, and Kyrie. He was a good matchup against the Warriors. But outside of those circumstances, he's an MLE guy and I'm not even sure he's viewed positively on that contract.

Last year Malik Monk was untradable because of a good month towards the end of season and it's not even clear the Hornets will match a full MLE offer on him this summer. They're in a similar situation with Graham. Imagine if the Hornets extended those guys last season based on their third year evaluations. They'd be a tax team trading a lottery pick to get out and still wouldn't have cap space to give fill their hole at center.

You have four years to evaluate, you should use them all unless it's a no brainer situation or the player is willing to sign a team-friendly extension.


After Tristan's performance in the playoffs and the finals, nobody was complaining about him being overpaid.

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