ImageImageImage

poll if 7th

Moderator: jbk1234

Cavs have best odds for 7th so with chalk taken who you want them to take or do?

Poll ended at Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am

make a trade up or down
2
67%
pick Jalen Johnson
0
No votes
pick Keon Johnson
0
No votes
pick Kai Jones
0
No votes
pick Sengun
0
No votes
pick Moody
0
No votes
pick Giddey
0
No votes
pick Kispert
0
No votes
pick Isaiah Todd
0
No votes
pick someone not listed
1
33%
 
Total votes: 3

KuruptedCav
Starter
Posts: 2,067
And1: 716
Joined: Dec 15, 2004

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#21 » by KuruptedCav » Thu May 27, 2021 11:19 pm

Give me Moses Moody or Scottie Barnes.

As for the Sexton talk. I love Collin and think he can be part of the solution. He has legit NBA skill-sets in his ball handling, shooting, scoring and speed. But, unlike Fox, he’s not a two-way player, and does not sufficiently facilitate. My top-end for him is 4 years and $90 million.

More than that, move him.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#22 » by jbk1234 » Fri May 28, 2021 1:36 am

JonFromVA wrote:I wouldn't get too excited about anything Terry Pluto is writing about, or has he actually been right about something and I missed it?

otoh, why wouldn't Collin ask for the max? The precedent is certainly there. Lots of small guards who can score have gotten paid.

For instance, there's not a whole lot separating him from Jamaal Murray when he was in his 3rd season other than the fact the Nuggets primary playmaker is Jokic with Morris at backup PG while the Cavs have Garland and nobody.

There are minefields ahead for the Cavs and they need to negotiate them smartly and successfully, or the rebuild will turn South and playing "hardball" is not going to be a good look for a franchise with a history of dysfunction and mismanagement. We desperately need to come to an amicable agreement on an extension, or find an amicable trade partner; so we can keep progressing.
Refusing to pay above market isn't hardball. Also, handing a guy whose best role on a typical NBA team might be sixth man over $100M can set your rebuild back a half a decade.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#23 » by JonFromVA » Fri May 28, 2021 2:59 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:I wouldn't get too excited about anything Terry Pluto is writing about, or has he actually been right about something and I missed it?

otoh, why wouldn't Collin ask for the max? The precedent is certainly there. Lots of small guards who can score have gotten paid.

For instance, there's not a whole lot separating him from Jamaal Murray when he was in his 3rd season other than the fact the Nuggets primary playmaker is Jokic with Morris at backup PG while the Cavs have Garland and nobody.

There are minefields ahead for the Cavs and they need to negotiate them smartly and successfully, or the rebuild will turn South and playing "hardball" is not going to be a good look for a franchise with a history of dysfunction and mismanagement. We desperately need to come to an amicable agreement on an extension, or find an amicable trade partner; so we can keep progressing.
Refusing to pay above market isn't hardball. Also, handing a guy whose best role on a typical NBA team might be sixth man over $100M can set your rebuild back a half a decade.


Actually it is... because "market value" can not be determined fairly for a restricted free-agent.

I'd also argue the cost of losing or disenfranchising a potential star player and culture setter is significantly more damaging to a rebuild than overpaying a player who at the very least is going to end up giving us 20 ppg off the bench.

Which is not to say I believe Collin should get a max extension, just that he's certainly not wrong to ask for one as a starting point in negotiations.

I mean, what's your doom and gloom comparable? We've seen plenty of PG's who played more like SG's and got paid.

All time great 6th men like Jordan Clarkson, Jamaal Crawford, Lou Williams, LeAndro Barbossa, and Jason Terry weren't putting up 24 & 4 as 22 year olds.

Not even Joe Johnson who Phoenix traded to Atlanta because they didn't want to pay him to backup Steve Nash.
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 728
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#24 » by Revenged25 » Fri May 28, 2021 3:37 pm

http://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/40

This is a list of the NBA 6th MOY and their stats. Only 4 in the nearly 40 years scored over 20 ppg. Even if Sexton were to become a "6th Man" coming off the bench, he'd be playing a role closer to Prime Spurs run Ginobli 6th man than he would be a typical 6th man. Starting off on the bench so that a more defensive oriented player is able to help slow down the early offense of the opponent then coming in and being a primary scoring threat with the secondary team and also giving a boost to the "starters."
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#25 » by jbk1234 » Fri May 28, 2021 8:36 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:I wouldn't get too excited about anything Terry Pluto is writing about, or has he actually been right about something and I missed it?

otoh, why wouldn't Collin ask for the max? The precedent is certainly there. Lots of small guards who can score have gotten paid.

For instance, there's not a whole lot separating him from Jamaal Murray when he was in his 3rd season other than the fact the Nuggets primary playmaker is Jokic with Morris at backup PG while the Cavs have Garland and nobody.

There are minefields ahead for the Cavs and they need to negotiate them smartly and successfully, or the rebuild will turn South and playing "hardball" is not going to be a good look for a franchise with a history of dysfunction and mismanagement. We desperately need to come to an amicable agreement on an extension, or find an amicable trade partner; so we can keep progressing.
Refusing to pay above market isn't hardball. Also, handing a guy whose best role on a typical NBA team might be sixth man over $100M can set your rebuild back a half a decade.


Actually it is... because "market value" can not be determined fairly for a restricted free-agent.

I'd also argue the cost of losing or disenfranchising a potential star player and culture setter is significantly more damaging to a rebuild than overpaying a player who at the very least is going to end up giving us 20 ppg off the bench.

Which is not to say I believe Collin should get a max extension, just that he's certainly not wrong to ask for one as a starting point in negotiations.

I mean, what's your doom and gloom comparable? We've seen plenty of PG's who played more like SG's and got paid.

All time great 6th men like Jordan Clarkson, Jamaal Crawford, Lou Williams, LeAndro Barbossa, and Jason Terry weren't putting up 24 & 4 as 22 year olds.

Not even Joe Johnson who Phoenix traded to Atlanta because they didn't want to pay him to backup Steve Nash.
Market value can absolutely be determined fairly by restricted free agency. Players sign offer sheets and they're not matched all the time. Teams concoct all types of poison pills that will prevent the team with RFA rights from matching. If there's another team that's convinced that Sexton is worth a max offer, he'll get. His RFA status won't change that.

But no one, not Sexton, his agent, nor the people posting here think that's a realistic possibility. If Sexton doesn't get that contract from us, he's not getting it.

TT was an unrestricted FA last year and didn't even get an offer for the full MLE - after asking for a max extension. Andre Drummond will be lucky if he gets the full MLE this summer - after turning down a $20M per contract extension. The issues with Love's deal are well known. The Cavs don't have a reputation as playing hardball, the Cavs have a reputation as a team you can roll.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#26 » by jbk1234 » Fri May 28, 2021 8:42 pm

Revenged25 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/40

This is a list of the NBA 6th MOY and their stats. Only 4 in the nearly 40 years scored over 20 ppg. Even if Sexton were to become a "6th Man" coming off the bench, he'd be playing a role closer to Prime Spurs run Ginobli 6th man than he would be a typical 6th man. Starting off on the bench so that a more defensive oriented player is able to help slow down the early offense of the opponent then coming in and being a primary scoring threat with the secondary team and also giving a boost to the "starters."
Setting aside the fact that Ginobli was a solid defender who made winning contributions to a championship caliber team, I don't know that he ever got a max contract. I think a far more realistic projection is Clarkson and I'll be fine if he gets that type of money. It is true that 24ppg is a lot. It's also true that he's led the Cavs in FGAs for three years in a row, we've averaged 20 wins a season during that stretch, and he's taken more shots every year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#27 » by JonFromVA » Fri May 28, 2021 8:58 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Refusing to pay above market isn't hardball. Also, handing a guy whose best role on a typical NBA team might be sixth man over $100M can set your rebuild back a half a decade.


Actually it is... because "market value" can not be determined fairly for a restricted free-agent.

I'd also argue the cost of losing or disenfranchising a potential star player and culture setter is significantly more damaging to a rebuild than overpaying a player who at the very least is going to end up giving us 20 ppg off the bench.

Which is not to say I believe Collin should get a max extension, just that he's certainly not wrong to ask for one as a starting point in negotiations.

I mean, what's your doom and gloom comparable? We've seen plenty of PG's who played more like SG's and got paid.

All time great 6th men like Jordan Clarkson, Jamaal Crawford, Lou Williams, LeAndro Barbossa, and Jason Terry weren't putting up 24 & 4 as 22 year olds.

Not even Joe Johnson who Phoenix traded to Atlanta because they didn't want to pay him to backup Steve Nash.
Market value can absolutely be determined fairly by restricted free agency. Players sign offer sheets and they're not matched all the time. Teams concoct all types of poison pills that will prevent the team with RFA rights from matching. If there's another team that's convinced that Sexton is worth a max offer, he'll get. His RFA status won't change that.

But no one, not Sexton, his agent, nor the people posting here think that's a realistic possibility. If Sexton doesn't get that contract from us, he's not getting it.

TT was an unrestricted FA last year and didn't even get an offer for the full MLE - after asking for a max extension. Andre Drummond will be lucky if he gets the full MLE this summer - after turning down a $20M per contract extension. The issues with Love's deal are well known. The Cavs don't have a reputation as playing hardball, the Cavs have a reputation as a team you can roll.


Good luck convincing Collin and his agent that they can get fair market price via restricted free agency. It helps that the wait time was reduced, but a lot of teams simply won't waste their time making a restricted offer to a player they believe will be matched in a few days. Teams will prioritize free-agents they believe they have an actual chance of signing.

Soft collusion is also a reality ... meaning GM's don't have to actually discuss not signing each other's restricted free agents to realize that if they don't run up the cost for a fellow GM, there's a fair chance that GM will reciprocate.

Sort of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Except there is no penalty if the two parties co-operate.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#28 » by JonFromVA » Fri May 28, 2021 9:20 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/40

This is a list of the NBA 6th MOY and their stats. Only 4 in the nearly 40 years scored over 20 ppg. Even if Sexton were to become a "6th Man" coming off the bench, he'd be playing a role closer to Prime Spurs run Ginobli 6th man than he would be a typical 6th man. Starting off on the bench so that a more defensive oriented player is able to help slow down the early offense of the opponent then coming in and being a primary scoring threat with the secondary team and also giving a boost to the "starters."
Setting aside the fact that Ginobli was a solid defender who made winning contributions to a championship caliber team, I don't know that he ever got a max contract. I think a far more realistic projection is Clarkson and I'll be fine if he gets that type of money. It is true that 24ppg is a lot. It's also true that he's led the Cavs in FGAs for three years in a row, we've averaged 20 wins a season during that stretch, and he's taken more shots every year.


Ginobili was picked 58th in the draft. He was 25 years old before he played his first game. He averaged 7 & 2 as a rookie. Didn't approach 20 & 4 until he was 31 years old!!!

So yeah, he's not a good comp, but not because he eventually proved to be a very good defender on a team that basically turned everybody in to good defenders.

And let's not start to label Collin as some kind of a chucker when the only more effective offensive weapon on the team was Jarrett Allen and the only way to realize that efficiency is to catch the defense napping on the P&R.

24PPG on 18FGA's per game is very good.

If you're point is that you feel his style of play will never be conducive to winning that's fine; but we're still going to keep reminding you he's only 22.
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 728
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#29 » by Revenged25 » Fri May 28, 2021 9:54 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/40

This is a list of the NBA 6th MOY and their stats. Only 4 in the nearly 40 years scored over 20 ppg. Even if Sexton were to become a "6th Man" coming off the bench, he'd be playing a role closer to Prime Spurs run Ginobli 6th man than he would be a typical 6th man. Starting off on the bench so that a more defensive oriented player is able to help slow down the early offense of the opponent then coming in and being a primary scoring threat with the secondary team and also giving a boost to the "starters."
Setting aside the fact that Ginobli was a solid defender who made winning contributions to a championship caliber team, I don't know that he ever got a max contract. I think a far more realistic projection is Clarkson and I'll be fine if he gets that type of money. It is true that 24ppg is a lot. It's also true that he's led the Cavs in FGAs for three years in a row, we've averaged 20 wins a season during that stretch, and he's taken more shots every year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Do you feel the same way about Devin Booker that you do Sexton? In years 2-4, he had a smaller role his rookie season, they won 24, 21, and 19 games respectively while he averaged 22-26 ppg. It wasn't until the past 2 years after they've finally put a lot more pieces around him that they started looking more like a legit team.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#30 » by jbk1234 » Fri May 28, 2021 10:32 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/40

This is a list of the NBA 6th MOY and their stats. Only 4 in the nearly 40 years scored over 20 ppg. Even if Sexton were to become a "6th Man" coming off the bench, he'd be playing a role closer to Prime Spurs run Ginobli 6th man than he would be a typical 6th man. Starting off on the bench so that a more defensive oriented player is able to help slow down the early offense of the opponent then coming in and being a primary scoring threat with the secondary team and also giving a boost to the "starters."
Setting aside the fact that Ginobli was a solid defender who made winning contributions to a championship caliber team, I don't know that he ever got a max contract. I think a far more realistic projection is Clarkson and I'll be fine if he gets that type of money. It is true that 24ppg is a lot. It's also true that he's led the Cavs in FGAs for three years in a row, we've averaged 20 wins a season during that stretch, and he's taken more shots every year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Do you feel the same way about Devin Booker that you do Sexton? In years 2-4, he had a smaller role his rookie season, they won 24, 21, and 19 games respectively while he averaged 22-26 ppg. It wasn't until the past 2 years after they've finally put a lot more pieces around him that they started looking more like a legit team.
No because Devin Booker was always a shooter. People are making a lot of comparisons to guys with very different playing styles and ignoring the impact on a team's overall offensive.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#31 » by jbk1234 » Sat May 29, 2021 12:35 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Actually it is... because "market value" can not be determined fairly for a restricted free-agent.

I'd also argue the cost of losing or disenfranchising a potential star player and culture setter is significantly more damaging to a rebuild than overpaying a player who at the very least is going to end up giving us 20 ppg off the bench.

Which is not to say I believe Collin should get a max extension, just that he's certainly not wrong to ask for one as a starting point in negotiations.

I mean, what's your doom and gloom comparable? We've seen plenty of PG's who played more like SG's and got paid.

All time great 6th men like Jordan Clarkson, Jamaal Crawford, Lou Williams, LeAndro Barbossa, and Jason Terry weren't putting up 24 & 4 as 22 year olds.

Not even Joe Johnson who Phoenix traded to Atlanta because they didn't want to pay him to backup Steve Nash.
Market value can absolutely be determined fairly by restricted free agency. Players sign offer sheets and they're not matched all the time. Teams concoct all types of poison pills that will prevent the team with RFA rights from matching. If there's another team that's convinced that Sexton is worth a max offer, he'll get. His RFA status won't change that.

But no one, not Sexton, his agent, nor the people posting here think that's a realistic possibility. If Sexton doesn't get that contract from us, he's not getting it.

TT was an unrestricted FA last year and didn't even get an offer for the full MLE - after asking for a max extension. Andre Drummond will be lucky if he gets the full MLE this summer - after turning down a $20M per contract extension. The issues with Love's deal are well known. The Cavs don't have a reputation as playing hardball, the Cavs have a reputation as a team you can roll.


Good luck convincing Collin and his agent that they can get fair market price via restricted free agency. It helps that the wait time was reduced, but a lot of teams simply won't waste their time making a restricted offer to a player they believe will be matched in a few days. Teams will prioritize free-agents they believe they have an actual chance of signing.

Soft collusion is also a reality ... meaning GM's don't have to actually discuss not signing each other's restricted free agents to realize that if they don't run up the cost for a fellow GM, there's a fair chance that GM will reciprocate.

Sort of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Except there is no penalty if the two parties co-operate.
I mean we can go down the rabbit hole of how *fair* free agency is when agents habitually force over-the-cap teams to pay twice what that player would get elsewhere because the team has no cap space to replace him, or how they have bad teams pay a premium to sign their clients with the idea that they can request a trade down the road. The reality is that the NBA is a player's league and team-friendly contracts are rare.

The 2022 FA market has a bunch of blue chip names available. A bunch of teams will clear cap and at least a couple will be bridesmaids. Sexton will have offers but if he doesn't make a big jump on the defensive end of the court, I'm very skeptical they'll be anywhere near a rookie max.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,594
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#32 » by Stillwater » Sat May 29, 2021 5:18 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Market value can absolutely be determined fairly by restricted free agency. Players sign offer sheets and they're not matched all the time. Teams concoct all types of poison pills that will prevent the team with RFA rights from matching. If there's another team that's convinced that Sexton is worth a max offer, he'll get. His RFA status won't change that.

But no one, not Sexton, his agent, nor the people posting here think that's a realistic possibility. If Sexton doesn't get that contract from us, he's not getting it.

TT was an unrestricted FA last year and didn't even get an offer for the full MLE - after asking for a max extension. Andre Drummond will be lucky if he gets the full MLE this summer - after turning down a $20M per contract extension. The issues with Love's deal are well known. The Cavs don't have a reputation as playing hardball, the Cavs have a reputation as a team you can roll.


Good luck convincing Collin and his agent that they can get fair market price via restricted free agency. It helps that the wait time was reduced, but a lot of teams simply won't waste their time making a restricted offer to a player they believe will be matched in a few days. Teams will prioritize free-agents they believe they have an actual chance of signing.

Soft collusion is also a reality ... meaning GM's don't have to actually discuss not signing each other's restricted free agents to realize that if they don't run up the cost for a fellow GM, there's a fair chance that GM will reciprocate.

Sort of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Except there is no penalty if the two parties co-operate.
I mean we can go down the rabbit hole of how *fair* free agency is when agents habitually force over-the-cap teams to pay twice what that player would get elsewhere because the team has no cap space to replace him, or how they have bad teams pay a premium to sign their clients with the idea that they can request a trade down the road. The reality is that the NBA is a player's league and team-friendly contracts are rare.

The 2022 FA market has a bunch of blue chip names available. A bunch of teams will clear cap and at least a couple will be bridesmaids. Sexton will have offers but if he doesn't make a big jump on the defensive end of the court, I'm very skeptical they'll be anywhere near a rookie max.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I think he gets close to the max because even though the defense is sht so it the rest of the rosters for the most part which makes having accountability difficult. But he also is defending bigger players usually so his numbers will always be bad there at 6'1 even if he is not that bad at playing defense against slower guards or ones the same length long term.
I guess what I am saying is his lack of success as a defender is more a team issue or him not caring about playing it when nobody else is on top of the issue with being a smaller than average guard defending bigger off ball players because the guy out there with him is getting the job of guarding the small guards more often even though he might be able to carry some of that load too.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#33 » by jbk1234 » Sat May 29, 2021 6:31 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Good luck convincing Collin and his agent that they can get fair market price via restricted free agency. It helps that the wait time was reduced, but a lot of teams simply won't waste their time making a restricted offer to a player they believe will be matched in a few days. Teams will prioritize free-agents they believe they have an actual chance of signing.

Soft collusion is also a reality ... meaning GM's don't have to actually discuss not signing each other's restricted free agents to realize that if they don't run up the cost for a fellow GM, there's a fair chance that GM will reciprocate.

Sort of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Except there is no penalty if the two parties co-operate.
I mean we can go down the rabbit hole of how *fair* free agency is when agents habitually force over-the-cap teams to pay twice what that player would get elsewhere because the team has no cap space to replace him, or how they have bad teams pay a premium to sign their clients with the idea that they can request a trade down the road. The reality is that the NBA is a player's league and team-friendly contracts are rare.

The 2022 FA market has a bunch of blue chip names available. A bunch of teams will clear cap and at least a couple will be bridesmaids. Sexton will have offers but if he doesn't make a big jump on the defensive end of the court, I'm very skeptical they'll be anywhere near a rookie max.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I think he gets close to the max because even though the defense is sht so it the rest of the rosters for the most part which makes having accountability difficult. But he also is defending bigger players usually so his numbers will always be bad there at 6'1 even if he is not that bad at playing defense against slower guards or ones the same length long term.
I guess what I am saying is his lack of success as a defender is more a team issue or him not caring about playing it when nobody else is on top of the issue with being a smaller than average guard defending bigger off ball players because the guy out there with him is getting the job of guarding the small guards more often even though he might be able to carry some of that load too.
If that were the case, and it's not, then other teams will see that and make an offer that reflects that reality.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,594
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#34 » by Stillwater » Sat May 29, 2021 6:49 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I mean we can go down the rabbit hole of how *fair* free agency is when agents habitually force over-the-cap teams to pay twice what that player would get elsewhere because the team has no cap space to replace him, or how they have bad teams pay a premium to sign their clients with the idea that they can request a trade down the road. The reality is that the NBA is a player's league and team-friendly contracts are rare.

The 2022 FA market has a bunch of blue chip names available. A bunch of teams will clear cap and at least a couple will be bridesmaids. Sexton will have offers but if he doesn't make a big jump on the defensive end of the court, I'm very skeptical they'll be anywhere near a rookie max.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I think he gets close to the max because even though the defense is sht so it the rest of the rosters for the most part which makes having accountability difficult. But he also is defending bigger players usually so his numbers will always be bad there at 6'1 even if he is not that bad at playing defense against slower guards or ones the same length long term.
I guess what I am saying is his lack of success as a defender is more a team issue or him not caring about playing it when nobody else is on top of the issue with being a smaller than average guard defending bigger off ball players because the guy out there with him is getting the job of guarding the small guards more often even though he might be able to carry some of that load too.
If that were the case, and it's not, then other teams will see that and make an offer that reflects that reality.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I understand being concerned about the defense but I completely disagree it will effect his contract. Look at other players around the league who have gotten the $ without playing defense and it's fair to assume the same happens.
I do think it is true the rest of the team outside of maybe Stevens and Okoro are also not doing anything defensively any better than Sexton on a game to game basis either not of any consequence in the win loss column anyway...
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,594
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#35 » by Stillwater » Sat May 29, 2021 6:56 pm

After watching the Altman press conference which didn't say much besides the typical front office jargon My impression is that they are committed to Sexland and the other players on the roster even the always injured ones are key players like Love with no changes or trades in the near future very possible even if offers were there.
I also think that might be the last time we ever see him representing the Cavs when he cannot commit to if he will even be with the org going forward.
I suspect Gilbert might be really struggling mentally or is not actually talking much if they have not had clear conversations where Altman could have made it clear he had the ownerships full confidence or something.
SO I think it will not be BPA no matter what in this one but they will probably pick for need and regret it if they are not in the top 3 where they cannot screw it up
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#36 » by jbk1234 » Sat May 29, 2021 8:13 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think he gets close to the max because even though the defense is sht so it the rest of the rosters for the most part which makes having accountability difficult. But he also is defending bigger players usually so his numbers will always be bad there at 6'1 even if he is not that bad at playing defense against slower guards or ones the same length long term.
I guess what I am saying is his lack of success as a defender is more a team issue or him not caring about playing it when nobody else is on top of the issue with being a smaller than average guard defending bigger off ball players because the guy out there with him is getting the job of guarding the small guards more often even though he might be able to carry some of that load too.
If that were the case, and it's not, then other teams will see that and make an offer that reflects that reality.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I understand being concerned about the defense but I completely disagree it will effect his contract. Look at other players around the league who have gotten the $ without playing defense and it's fair to assume the same happens.
I do think it is true the rest of the team outside of maybe Stevens and Okoro are also not doing anything defensively any better than Sexton on a game to game basis either not of any consequence in the win loss column anyway...
Until Love came back, Sexton was the worst defensive starter on the court. If it was an issue of him putting in the effort on that end and just being limited due to size, I might be more forgiving. But he plays like defense is someone else's job and it absolutely matters. The Cavs should tell the young man that if he shows them he's capable of playing even decent defense, he's looking at a big payday. If he balks at that, it should be a red flag.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,594
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#37 » by Stillwater » Sat May 29, 2021 8:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:If that were the case, and it's not, then other teams will see that and make an offer that reflects that reality.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I understand being concerned about the defense but I completely disagree it will effect his contract. Look at other players around the league who have gotten the $ without playing defense and it's fair to assume the same happens.
I do think it is true the rest of the team outside of maybe Stevens and Okoro are also not doing anything defensively any better than Sexton on a game to game basis either not of any consequence in the win loss column anyway...
Until Love came back, Sexton was the worst defensive starter on the court. If it was an issue of him putting in the effort on that end and just being limited due to size, I might be more forgiving. But he plays like defense is someone else's job and it absolutely matters. The Cavs should tell the young man that if he shows them he's capable of playing even decent defense, he's looking at a big payday. If he balks at that, it should be a red flag.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Say what you will but I saw him playing decent defense against players similar too him that are high energy guards early in the season but did not do so well against slow methodical shooters. It is a wip for both these guards in that arena and imo any kudos DG deserves over Sexton were pretty limited if we are talking about comparing bad defenders.
I don't think they have a legitimate argument in contract negotiations if the issues were known to be minor injury related or something because he definitely does not have a lack of effort and had some minor set backs that were impacting his movement some aside from straight line speed it also was evident in his outside shot % dropping and him not having as much confidence in even shooting it if he wasnt already open.
I am not worried about it I think they give him a decent contract but it wont be the type that breaks the roster flex in the long term but it is enough to keep him around.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#38 » by JonFromVA » Sun May 30, 2021 12:08 am

Collin ball watches too much when off the ball. It's an obvious flaw, and fixable.

Darius needs to either continue to get stronger so he can hold his ground, or increase his intensity and try to strip the ball when facing a mismatch. Hopefully both.

Kyrie was downright lazy/uninterested on/in defense and couldn't run a team or win ... yet still got the full max. He's still not good at it, but can at least he can be pesky when it matters. I wouldn't question either Darius or Collin's effort in a tight situation.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#39 » by jbk1234 » Sun May 30, 2021 2:03 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Collin ball watches too much when off the ball. It's an obvious flaw, and fixable.

Darius needs to either continue to get stronger so he can hold his ground, or increase his intensity and try to strip the ball when facing a mismatch. Hopefully both.

Kyrie was downright lazy/uninterested on/in defense and couldn't run a team or win ... yet still got the full max. He's still not good at it, but can at least he can be pesky when it matters. I wouldn't question either Darius or Collin's effort in a tight situation.
Collin doesn't go over picks - ever. He often quits the play altogether in the PNR. He consistently helps off of good shooters without actually helping. He's a fundamentally unsound defender in a addition to be undersized. What was infuriating about this season is that he was often being hid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
toooskies
Sophomore
Posts: 113
And1: 48
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: poll if 7th 

Post#40 » by toooskies » Sun May 30, 2021 3:02 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Collin ball watches too much when off the ball. It's an obvious flaw, and fixable.

Darius needs to either continue to get stronger so he can hold his ground, or increase his intensity and try to strip the ball when facing a mismatch. Hopefully both.

Kyrie was downright lazy/uninterested on/in defense and couldn't run a team or win ... yet still got the full max. He's still not good at it, but can at least he can be pesky when it matters. I wouldn't question either Darius or Collin's effort in a tight situation.
Collin doesn't go over picks - ever. He often quits the play altogether in the PNR. He consistently helps off of good shooters without actually helping. He's a fundamentally unsound defender in a addition to be undersized. What was infuriating about this season is that he was often being hid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Seems like a lot of coaching decisions here, particularly never going over screens.

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers