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poll if 7th

Moderator: jbk1234

Cavs have best odds for 7th so with chalk taken who you want them to take or do?

Poll ended at Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am

make a trade up or down
2
67%
pick Jalen Johnson
0
No votes
pick Keon Johnson
0
No votes
pick Kai Jones
0
No votes
pick Sengun
0
No votes
pick Moody
0
No votes
pick Giddey
0
No votes
pick Kispert
0
No votes
pick Isaiah Todd
0
No votes
pick someone not listed
1
33%
 
Total votes: 3

Revenged25
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#61 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 1, 2021 3:20 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton’s performance so far is probably somewhere in between the careers of Zach Lavine on the low end and Booker/Mitchell on the high end, if you’re looking at positive comps for shooting guards. And that’s the realistic/optimistic landing spot for his second contract, competing for an all-star spot.

Downside comp might be a guy like Reggie Jackson? Most guards that score a lot early but flame out are low-efficiency high-volume guys, but that doesn’t describe Sexton.

The argument for extending Sexton now is that he’s a guy with all-star potential now and if he’s in all-star discussions next year, his RFA offers might be higher than what we offer this off-season. Ideally the Cavs offer a Lavine-like deal now for $20-25m per year neighborhood. But if he turns it down and plays at an all-star level, you might have to max him to keep him.
Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

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Does Sexton even really foul hunt? The fact he goes to the line so much, which is still only 6 attempts a game, is a direct correlation that he's driving which means he's more likely to have contact and less likely to be considered "foul hunting."

Also although he's taking 18 FGA he's doing it on very high efficiency. His TS% is right up there with what Booker and Mitchell had. Granted they both should about 2 more 3PA/g than Sexton, but he's still doing the scoring and efficiency right there with them. Heck even his assist numbers are similar.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#62 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 1, 2021 4:00 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton’s performance so far is probably somewhere in between the careers of Zach Lavine on the low end and Booker/Mitchell on the high end, if you’re looking at positive comps for shooting guards. And that’s the realistic/optimistic landing spot for his second contract, competing for an all-star spot.

Downside comp might be a guy like Reggie Jackson? Most guards that score a lot early but flame out are low-efficiency high-volume guys, but that doesn’t describe Sexton.

The argument for extending Sexton now is that he’s a guy with all-star potential now and if he’s in all-star discussions next year, his RFA offers might be higher than what we offer this off-season. Ideally the Cavs offer a Lavine-like deal now for $20-25m per year neighborhood. But if he turns it down and plays at an all-star level, you might have to max him to keep him.
Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

yeah He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

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Does Sexton even really foul hunt? The fact he goes to the line so much, which is still only 6 attempts a game, is a direct correlation that he's driving which means he's more likely to have contact and less likely to be considered "foul hunting."

Also although he's taking 18 FGA he's doing it on very high efficiency. His TS% is right up there with what Booker and Mitchell had. Granted they both should about 2 more 3PA/g than Sexton, but he's still doing the scoring and efficiency right there with them. Heck even his assist numbers are similar.

He hasn't ever done much in the way of foul hunting throughout most of his first 3 seasons here but I did notice him beginning to take advantage of less athletic defenders by slowing his gather to attempt to draw a foul from a trailer, but he rarely gets the call like the poster childs of the league who only have to raise an elbow 3 feet from a close out and they are shooting freebies.
The rule does need to change and Sexton could have been taking advantage of it Garland should have been with his finishing failures...all the Cavs should be if they are not going to change it, but yeah he doesn't need to cheat the game like Trae Young types do.
Nobody for the most part has ever agreed with my takes on trae and he is still doing this bs to get to the line in the playoffs although he is starting to have less success at it anyway.
I thought the league would have capped before it got started so he could be labelled a regular season hero etc. Now that his efficient passing is dismantling the iso dominant Knicks it takes away from the bad parts of his game so much I doubt they even address it unless he is drawing controversial calls against a true contender in the next round.
sorry for the rant.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#63 » by toooskies » Tue Jun 1, 2021 4:20 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton’s performance so far is probably somewhere in between the careers of Zach Lavine on the low end and Booker/Mitchell on the high end, if you’re looking at positive comps for shooting guards. And that’s the realistic/optimistic landing spot for his second contract, competing for an all-star spot.

Downside comp might be a guy like Reggie Jackson? Most guards that score a lot early but flame out are low-efficiency high-volume guys, but that doesn’t describe Sexton.

The argument for extending Sexton now is that he’s a guy with all-star potential now and if he’s in all-star discussions next year, his RFA offers might be higher than what we offer this off-season. Ideally the Cavs offer a Lavine-like deal now for $20-25m per year neighborhood. But if he turns it down and plays at an all-star level, you might have to max him to keep him.
Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

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I'm going to need a reference on "Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man". I know you've been saying that for forever, and you say you can only play him with a tall ballhandler, but there are plenty of teams already that play two short guys (Jazz, Suns, Blazers, Raptors in 2021 off the top of my head). That's in addition to the teams with point-forward types.

I don't expect Sexton's game to improve based on more volume, I expect him to figure out how to shoot 1-2 more threes a game and improve his efficiency if the team improves around him. His biggest points where he needs to develop are team-oriented. Which is hard to learn when team practice time gets restricted due to COVID.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#64 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 4:41 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton’s performance so far is probably somewhere in between the careers of Zach Lavine on the low end and Booker/Mitchell on the high end, if you’re looking at positive comps for shooting guards. And that’s the realistic/optimistic landing spot for his second contract, competing for an all-star spot.

Downside comp might be a guy like Reggie Jackson? Most guards that score a lot early but flame out are low-efficiency high-volume guys, but that doesn’t describe Sexton.

The argument for extending Sexton now is that he’s a guy with all-star potential now and if he’s in all-star discussions next year, his RFA offers might be higher than what we offer this off-season. Ideally the Cavs offer a Lavine-like deal now for $20-25m per year neighborhood. But if he turns it down and plays at an all-star level, you might have to max him to keep him.


I think your high-end range is a better fit for Sexton's full-range. The sticking point is always going to be height. If Collin was 3" taller, nobody would take issue with him playing SG or worry about his defense as much. On the flip side, Collin has elite speed which sets him apart from some of those guys and Kyrie as well and leans the comp more towards Jackson or even Monta Ellis but they were not doing what Collin is doing at his age.

If we had a big who could run a team, we'd be a lot less concerned with Collin playing PG.

If we can somehow draft Cade, we'd have all the options on the table. We might even be able to justify Garland who seems to have higher value around the league for a piece that would let us start Cade/Okoro/Sexton.

11% chance of that?

Things will not likely be so easy for this rebuild, but at some point the Cavs need to address roster construction.

At some point the Cavs need to address their leadership hierarchy.

Maybe after the Browns win the Super Bowl Paul DePodesta can try his hand at basketball.


Totally agree, (OT) but how much is DePodesta actually doing as "Chief Strategy Officer" these days? My impression was that Dorsey was completely shutting him out of any decisions involving the roster, and that was a big part of why Dorsey was fired. My presumption is that he's working with the other guys to help define the team's strategy and help inform their decisions through analytics. But I think Dorsey would still look favorably on many of our draft picks as we're not just grabbing statistical anomalies, we're still finding guys who are first and foremost football players.

If we could get a straight answer, I'm pretty sure Koby would say the Cavs are in asset collection mode. The big trick is transition away from that to coherent roster building and whether that stage should be entrusted to Altman.

Funny thing is Dan is always talking about taking a team approach, alas he mentions stuff like how literally anyone in the organization can potentially contribute a good idea and should have access to do so; rather than focusing on and opening his check book to bring together a group of experts who can bring a holistic vision, analytics, scouting, and leadership to the FO.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#65 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 1, 2021 7:15 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton’s performance so far is probably somewhere in between the careers of Zach Lavine on the low end and Booker/Mitchell on the high end, if you’re looking at positive comps for shooting guards. And that’s the realistic/optimistic landing spot for his second contract, competing for an all-star spot.

Downside comp might be a guy like Reggie Jackson? Most guards that score a lot early but flame out are low-efficiency high-volume guys, but that doesn’t describe Sexton.

The argument for extending Sexton now is that he’s a guy with all-star potential now and if he’s in all-star discussions next year, his RFA offers might be higher than what we offer this off-season. Ideally the Cavs offer a Lavine-like deal now for $20-25m per year neighborhood. But if he turns it down and plays at an all-star level, you might have to max him to keep him.
Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

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I'm going to need a reference on "Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man". I know you've been saying that for forever, and you say you can only play him with a tall ballhandler, but there are plenty of teams already that play two short guys (Jazz, Suns, Blazers, Raptors in 2021 off the top of my head). That's in addition to the teams with point-forward types.

I don't expect Sexton's game to improve based on more volume, I expect him to figure out how to shoot 1-2 more threes a game and improve his efficiency if the team improves around him. His biggest points where he needs to develop are team-oriented. Which is hard to learn when team practice time gets restricted due to COVID.


Also a lot of the team-oriented improvement will also come with better teammates. I can't really understand the thinking that he needs to pass the ball more to teammates who are less efficient and less likely convert than him. For better or worse he's been the best option the majority of the time on the team. If people stepped up more maybe he'd be able to rely on them.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#66 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 1, 2021 7:40 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I'm going to need a reference on "Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man". I know you've been saying that for forever, and you say you can only play him with a tall ballhandler, but there are plenty of teams already that play two short guys (Jazz, Suns, Blazers, Raptors in 2021 off the top of my head). That's in addition to the teams with point-forward types.

I don't expect Sexton's game to improve based on more volume, I expect him to figure out how to shoot 1-2 more threes a game and improve his efficiency if the team improves around him. His biggest points where he needs to develop are team-oriented. Which is hard to learn when team practice time gets restricted due to COVID.


Also a lot of the team-oriented improvement will also come with better teammates. I can't really understand the thinking that he needs to pass the ball more to teammates who are less efficient and less likely convert than him. For better or worse he's been the best option the majority of the time on the team. If people stepped up more maybe he'd be able to rely on them.

that and the fact he is not the pg or expected to run the offense or set up teammates lol people complaining about his lack of playmaking when he is the first option scorer as if there is a better offense to be realized through better ball movement when the ball still ends up back in his hands as the best option on a team void of spacing etc.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#67 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 9:04 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I'm going to need a reference on "Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man". I know you've been saying that for forever, and you say you can only play him with a tall ballhandler, but there are plenty of teams already that play two short guys (Jazz, Suns, Blazers, Raptors in 2021 off the top of my head). That's in addition to the teams with point-forward types.

I don't expect Sexton's game to improve based on more volume, I expect him to figure out how to shoot 1-2 more threes a game and improve his efficiency if the team improves around him. His biggest points where he needs to develop are team-oriented. Which is hard to learn when team practice time gets restricted due to COVID.


Also a lot of the team-oriented improvement will also come with better teammates. I can't really understand the thinking that he needs to pass the ball more to teammates who are less efficient and less likely convert than him. For better or worse he's been the best option the majority of the time on the team. If people stepped up more maybe he'd be able to rely on them.


That's always a chicken and the egg situation. When our guards create better opportunities for teammates, their efficiency goes up. That means making passes at the right time and putting it in the right spot, and not just dishing out to the shaky 3pt shooter the defense decided to ignore but getting the ball to a cutter who can get an easy layup. It means being capable of running or participating in an offense that requires advanced reads, moving/screening, and not just ISO's and ball watching.

Something Kyrie used to do is called "snaking" the P&R which basically meant he would cut off the guy setting the screen for him cutting him out of the play. The screener was just an obstacle on the court that Kyrie used to shake defenders rather than a participant in the play.

Here's a long article about it:

https://cavstheblog.com/?p=40254

Moral of the story is that a lot goes in to making teammates better, and it's no more fair for one of us to say that it's Darius's job to involve his teammates than it was when Kyrie said the same thing about #23.

If I thought for a moment that Collin had attitude problems like Kyrie did ... I'd been 100% in favor of trading him.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#68 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 12:45 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton’s performance so far is probably somewhere in between the careers of Zach Lavine on the low end and Booker/Mitchell on the high end, if you’re looking at positive comps for shooting guards. And that’s the realistic/optimistic landing spot for his second contract, competing for an all-star spot.

Downside comp might be a guy like Reggie Jackson? Most guards that score a lot early but flame out are low-efficiency high-volume guys, but that doesn’t describe Sexton.

The argument for extending Sexton now is that he’s a guy with all-star potential now and if he’s in all-star discussions next year, his RFA offers might be higher than what we offer this off-season. Ideally the Cavs offer a Lavine-like deal now for $20-25m per year neighborhood. But if he turns it down and plays at an all-star level, you might have to max him to keep him.
Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I'm going to need a reference on "Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man". I know you've been saying that for forever, and you say you can only play him with a tall ballhandler, but there are plenty of teams already that play two short guys (Jazz, Suns, Blazers, Raptors in 2021 off the top of my head). That's in addition to the teams with point-forward types.

I don't expect Sexton's game to improve based on more volume, I expect him to figure out how to shoot 1-2 more threes a game and improve his efficiency if the team improves around him. His biggest points where he needs to develop are team-oriented. Which is hard to learn when team practice time gets restricted due to COVID.
Both Pluto and Amico have reported speeking with sources from front offices who have him as a sixth man. Fedor has also acknowledged that the perception exists but that he disagrees with it. The Raptors had a hard post season ceiling until they got Leonard. Same with the Blazers. We'll see how the Jazz fare. But Sexton is shorter than all those guards.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#69 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 2, 2021 4:13 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man. There are three teams who have the personnel to start him. Among those teams, only the Knicks might have the money to make a max offer, which can't be longer than 4 years and would have smaller raises. Extending him early is dumb.

He's already averaging 18 FGA per game. That's a lot. There aren't going to be a bunch of additional shots available to him. Trae Young is forcing the NBA to revisit the issue of foul hunting and Silver is talking about a rule change. Unless the improvement comes on the defensive side of the ball, he may already be pretty close to his ceiling.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I'm going to need a reference on "Most front offices presently have him as a sixth man". I know you've been saying that for forever, and you say you can only play him with a tall ballhandler, but there are plenty of teams already that play two short guys (Jazz, Suns, Blazers, Raptors in 2021 off the top of my head). That's in addition to the teams with point-forward types.

I don't expect Sexton's game to improve based on more volume, I expect him to figure out how to shoot 1-2 more threes a game and improve his efficiency if the team improves around him. His biggest points where he needs to develop are team-oriented. Which is hard to learn when team practice time gets restricted due to COVID.
Both Pluto and Amico have reported speeking with sources from front offices who have him as a sixth man. Fedor has also acknowledged that the perception exists but that he disagrees with it. The Raptors had a hard post season ceiling until they got Leonard. Same with the Blazers. We'll see how the Jazz fare. But Sexton is shorter than all those guards.


Oh?

Sexton 6-1 190 22yrs
Lowry 6-0 196 35yrs
VanVleet 6-1 197 27yrs
Lillard 6-2 195 30yrs
McCollum 6-3 190 29yrs
Mitchell 6-1 215 24yrs
Murray 6-3 215 24yrs

It would be nice for both Collin and Darius if they continue to get stronger and their frames fill out more. They probably won't ever have the body type of a Lowry or a Mitchell, but it's highly likely they continue to fill out.

I would have listed those players standing reach, wingspan, and vertical if I had easy access to it as they are often more relevant than raw height.

Getting as far as the conference finals is nothing to sneeze at when the best teams have consolidated the best players in the league; but injuries do happen, and as fans we can always hope things break in our favor like they did for the Raptors and most recently did for the Heat. Of course the Heat didn't win it all, but what if LeBron strained his hammy in the bubble finals?

But we're getting ahead of ourselves. We have a long way to go just to get where the Raptors or the Trailblazers were/are at. Between those teams, I don't think they had a player that was taken higher than 6th, and I'm not sure either team drafted a 19 yr old ... let alone 3 in a row.

We'll keep hoping we'll win the lottery and find that franchise player that will push this team in to true contention, but there's a fair chance we're simply doing this all wrong.

But hey, if we're following in the steps of Phoenix, we should keep in mind they were a 19 win team a couple of years ago featuring a 22 year old Devin Booker in his 4th season.

Things started to turn around when they added Rubio, and they finally broke through to contender status by adding CP3; but other than Paul the closest thing they had to a franchise player was Booker. He's a little taller than Sexton, but it wasn't that long ago he was written off as a player putting up empty stats on a losing team that didn't make his teammates better and sucked on defense.

But yeah, he's taller than Collin.

The thing is, other than Booker, nobody on the Suns is putting up huge numbers. They've simply been playing well as a team on both ends of the floor. They didn't keep drafting younger after Ayton. Bridges and Johnson are both 24 like Booker.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#70 » by LivingLegend » Wed Jun 2, 2021 6:56 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Byron Scott was a big proponent of old school defense and was asking the guys to fight through screens. Kyrie literally stopped trying after some of those early injuries. He also stopped trying to draw contact on his drives as well and instead turned to his fancy finishes to get the ball in the hoop.

My point is two fold, here. I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer Collin to be a tough rugged defender who willingly threw his body around and was able to absorb blows, rather that there are other ways to run a defense without requiring guards to fight through screens, and that guards who outright refuse to do what's being asked of them can still end up getting maxed.

82games has updated their stats for the season, and one area Collin continues to stand out is in clutch situations shooting around 62 eFG% from pretty much anywhere on the floor. The problem is in terms of impact because he's not raising our team's offensive rating high enough to outscore opponents. He's giving up the ball and his teammates aren't efficient enough to keep up the offensive rating.

Similarly Irving also struggled with this early in his career until LeBron came home. Irving had a big came against Boston similar to how Collin beat Brooklyn, other teams around the league woke up and realized they needed to pay them extra attention. Get the ball out of their hands or make them try to score against 3 defenders and the Cavs lose.

There's a lot Collin could do to manipulate defenses in those situations, but it has a lot to do with where his teammates are at as well. The more they can keep their man honest and step up in the clutch, the easier time Collin will have making an impact.

We've gotten used to having a generational player on the team who would manage those situations and make the most of them whether we went with a shooting lineup, a defensive lineup, or a pickup team of D-Leaguers; but mere mortals need a lot more help.
Going through screens is different than going over screens. Now that we have Allen our guards can and should sell out trying to deny the three point shot even if that means making Allen assume responsibility for both players on the drive.

But in addition to being the second worst team in made threes, we're the second worst team in the NBA in terms of opponents 3 point percentage and that cannot continue. You're never going to be a winning team if you're trading 2 points for 3.

I don't want to say that fans on this board overvalue our players, but they do overvalue a status quo that has the team losing 60 games a season, three seasons in a row, and more often than not, losing those games by a wide margin. Internal growth is very unlikely to solve the Cavs issues on its own.


The whole team simply needs to get better, get deeper, continue to add talent, build chemistry, learn systems, learn to play off each other, etc, etc.

Jason Lloyd expressed some of the same impatience you are in his recent Athletic article, but most players are not done developing and evolving at 21/22 years old. That many players only become valuable on their 2nd or 3rd contract on their 2nd or 3rd team is a huge impediment in our path trying to rebuild through the draft.

Maybe if we'd hired a coach who could extract effort out of players we could have won the 6th seed like Knicks did by scraping together NBA veterans and free agents signing a 1yr prove it deal; but we're won a championship a few years back. We don't need a panacea. We need to build talent, and when we find the right pieces ... maybe ... just maybe we'll have the talent and depth to make a real run.


The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#71 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 7:16 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Going through screens is different than going over screens. Now that we have Allen our guards can and should sell out trying to deny the three point shot even if that means making Allen assume responsibility for both players on the drive.

But in addition to being the second worst team in made threes, we're the second worst team in the NBA in terms of opponents 3 point percentage and that cannot continue. You're never going to be a winning team if you're trading 2 points for 3.

I don't want to say that fans on this board overvalue our players, but they do overvalue a status quo that has the team losing 60 games a season, three seasons in a row, and more often than not, losing those games by a wide margin. Internal growth is very unlikely to solve the Cavs issues on its own.


The whole team simply needs to get better, get deeper, continue to add talent, build chemistry, learn systems, learn to play off each other, etc, etc.

Jason Lloyd expressed some of the same impatience you are in his recent Athletic article, but most players are not done developing and evolving at 21/22 years old. That many players only become valuable on their 2nd or 3rd contract on their 2nd or 3rd team is a huge impediment in our path trying to rebuild through the draft.

Maybe if we'd hired a coach who could extract effort out of players we could have won the 6th seed like Knicks did by scraping together NBA veterans and free agents signing a 1yr prove it deal; but we're won a championship a few years back. We don't need a panacea. We need to build talent, and when we find the right pieces ... maybe ... just maybe we'll have the talent and depth to make a real run.


The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I mean only the Hawks are a close-ish example to the Cavs. The Grizzlies had guys Gasol and Conley that they were able to trade, also think they absorbed Iggies contract, to get additional assets to help them spur their rebuild and the Knicks got a ton of assets from the Mavericks for KP.

What the Cavs have done with their pieces has actually been something to applaud.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#72 » by LivingLegend » Wed Jun 2, 2021 7:29 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The whole team simply needs to get better, get deeper, continue to add talent, build chemistry, learn systems, learn to play off each other, etc, etc.

Jason Lloyd expressed some of the same impatience you are in his recent Athletic article, but most players are not done developing and evolving at 21/22 years old. That many players only become valuable on their 2nd or 3rd contract on their 2nd or 3rd team is a huge impediment in our path trying to rebuild through the draft.

Maybe if we'd hired a coach who could extract effort out of players we could have won the 6th seed like Knicks did by scraping together NBA veterans and free agents signing a 1yr prove it deal; but we're won a championship a few years back. We don't need a panacea. We need to build talent, and when we find the right pieces ... maybe ... just maybe we'll have the talent and depth to make a real run.


The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I mean only the Hawks are a close-ish example to the Cavs. The Grizzlies had guys Gasol and Conley that they were able to trade, also think they absorbed Iggies contract, to get additional assets to help them spur their rebuild and the Knicks got a ton of assets from the Mavericks for KP.

What the Cavs have done with their pieces has actually been something to applaud.


Nothing because they dont have any assets to give up for anything valuable. Larry Nance maybe? But Im not trading Larry for a late 1st round pick. We could trade Love by attaching Sexton to a deal but IDK if Altman could follow through with that.

The Cavs are also supposed to be winning games because of guys like Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen. They have a massive young player talent pool but its not winning them any games. I blame that on leadership and coaching.

The flaws with the Cavs are far more on the leadership group and the coaching staff than it is about the players. The constant dysfunction with veteran players is on the leadership group and the mind boggling offense the Cavs run is on the coaching staff. The players are all talented, but they are unmotivated and not being maximized.

Small note: The Cavs veterans need to contribute more and stay freaking healthy. Having Prince/Love/Nance/Delly constantly injured is not helping the young guys at all.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#73 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 7:40 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I mean only the Hawks are a close-ish example to the Cavs. The Grizzlies had guys Gasol and Conley that they were able to trade, also think they absorbed Iggies contract, to get additional assets to help them spur their rebuild and the Knicks got a ton of assets from the Mavericks for KP.

What the Cavs have done with their pieces has actually been something to applaud.


Nothing because they dont have any assets to give up for anything valuable. Larry Nance maybe? But Im not trading Larry for a late 1st round pick. We could trade Love by attaching Sexton to a deal but IDK if Altman could follow through with that.

The Cavs are also supposed to be winning games because of guys like Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen. They have a massive young player talent pool but its not winning them any games. I blame that on leadership and coaching.

The flaws with the Cavs are far more on the leadership group and the coaching staff than it is about the players. The constant dysfunction with veteran players is on the leadership group and the mind boggling offense the Cavs run is on the coaching staff. The players are all talented, but they are unmotivated and not being maximized.

Small note: The Cavs veterans need to contribute more and stay freaking healthy. Having Prince/Love/Nance/Delly constantly injured is not helping the young guys at all.


The Cavs have the talent to be winning a lot more, that we definitely agree on. The coaching and system is definitely not helping them.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#74 » by LivingLegend » Wed Jun 2, 2021 7:50 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I mean only the Hawks are a close-ish example to the Cavs. The Grizzlies had guys Gasol and Conley that they were able to trade, also think they absorbed Iggies contract, to get additional assets to help them spur their rebuild and the Knicks got a ton of assets from the Mavericks for KP.

What the Cavs have done with their pieces has actually been something to applaud.


Nothing because they dont have any assets to give up for anything valuable. Larry Nance maybe? But Im not trading Larry for a late 1st round pick. We could trade Love by attaching Sexton to a deal but IDK if Altman could follow through with that.

The Cavs are also supposed to be winning games because of guys like Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen. They have a massive young player talent pool but its not winning them any games. I blame that on leadership and coaching.

The flaws with the Cavs are far more on the leadership group and the coaching staff than it is about the players. The constant dysfunction with veteran players is on the leadership group and the mind boggling offense the Cavs run is on the coaching staff. The players are all talented, but they are unmotivated and not being maximized.

Small note: The Cavs veterans need to contribute more and stay freaking healthy. Having Prince/Love/Nance/Delly constantly injured is not helping the young guys at all.


Agreed, I said it since last year--on paper when you look at the core 4 young guys and then see Love/Nance and others surrounding them they should eaaasily be a 7-8th seed type of team. Its just nothing clicks, injuries happen, players start fighting with one another.

We saw a glimpse, 1 glimpse of what it should look like and that was the first month of the season this past year. The Cavs were playing great. Guys looked interested, the had a identity, fighting their butts off, ect. Then the wheels came off.

What the Knicks did this year, THAT should have been the Cavs and what I expected/hoped to see out of them in terms of finally playing up to their standard or even exceeding it post-LeBron. We need to be next years NYKs team.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#75 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 2, 2021 8:53 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Going through screens is different than going over screens. Now that we have Allen our guards can and should sell out trying to deny the three point shot even if that means making Allen assume responsibility for both players on the drive.

But in addition to being the second worst team in made threes, we're the second worst team in the NBA in terms of opponents 3 point percentage and that cannot continue. You're never going to be a winning team if you're trading 2 points for 3.

I don't want to say that fans on this board overvalue our players, but they do overvalue a status quo that has the team losing 60 games a season, three seasons in a row, and more often than not, losing those games by a wide margin. Internal growth is very unlikely to solve the Cavs issues on its own.


The whole team simply needs to get better, get deeper, continue to add talent, build chemistry, learn systems, learn to play off each other, etc, etc.

Jason Lloyd expressed some of the same impatience you are in his recent Athletic article, but most players are not done developing and evolving at 21/22 years old. That many players only become valuable on their 2nd or 3rd contract on their 2nd or 3rd team is a huge impediment in our path trying to rebuild through the draft.

Maybe if we'd hired a coach who could extract effort out of players we could have won the 6th seed like Knicks did by scraping together NBA veterans and free agents signing a 1yr prove it deal; but we're won a championship a few years back. We don't need a panacea. We need to build talent, and when we find the right pieces ... maybe ... just maybe we'll have the talent and depth to make a real run.


The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I think you'll find those teams drafted older and became older faster than the Cavs ...

Ja Morant is the youngest player in the Grizzlies starting lineup.
Trae Young is the youngest player in the Hawks starting lineup.
RJ Barrett is the youngest player in the Knicks starting lineup.

Collin Sexton, otoh, is playing with Darius Garland and Isaac Okoro who have both dragged down the team as rookies much like Collin did when he was a rookie. On top of that, our intended starting lineup only played 83 minutes together.

If we draft another 19 year, we're probably going to go through it all again.

The problem is we don't have a dynamic floor raiser on the roster like a Morant or Young. If Garland proves to be that guy, Sexton becomes that guy, or we draft one this year, we will know because he will lift us a lot closer to a playoff birth. It's then we should consider making the kind of move those teams have made.

Otherwise let those young guys continue to learn ... and keep collecting talent.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#76 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 2, 2021 9:05 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I mean only the Hawks are a close-ish example to the Cavs. The Grizzlies had guys Gasol and Conley that they were able to trade, also think they absorbed Iggies contract, to get additional assets to help them spur their rebuild and the Knicks got a ton of assets from the Mavericks for KP.

What the Cavs have done with their pieces has actually been something to applaud.


Nothing because they dont have any assets to give up for anything valuable. Larry Nance maybe? But Im not trading Larry for a late 1st round pick. We could trade Love by attaching Sexton to a deal but IDK if Altman could follow through with that.

The Cavs are also supposed to be winning games because of guys like Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen. They have a massive young player talent pool but its not winning them any games. I blame that on leadership and coaching.

The flaws with the Cavs are far more on the leadership group and the coaching staff than it is about the players. The constant dysfunction with veteran players is on the leadership group and the mind boggling offense the Cavs run is on the coaching staff. The players are all talented, but they are unmotivated and not being maximized.

Small note: The Cavs veterans need to contribute more and stay freaking healthy. Having Prince/Love/Nance/Delly constantly injured is not helping the young guys at all.


Agreed, I said it since last year--on paper when you look at the core 4 young guys and then see Love/Nance and others surrounding them they should eaaasily be a 7-8th seed type of team. Its just nothing clicks, injuries happen, players start fighting with one another.

We saw a glimpse, 1 glimpse of what it should look like and that was the first month of the season this past year. The Cavs were playing great. Guys looked interested, the had a identity, fighting their butts off, ect. Then the wheels came off.

What the Knicks did this year, THAT should have been the Cavs and what I expected/hoped to see out of them in terms of finally playing up to their standard or even exceeding it post-LeBron. We need to be next years NYKs team.


I really would rather not be the Knicks.

I'd much rather our young players were leading us to wins, not the 2010 Chicago Bulls Old Timers Reunion team.

Which is not to say, coaching and front office shouldn't be questioned with how they're managing and building the team; but this is what you get when you're building with 19 year olds regardless of all the injuries.

I mean what was the first thing we did shortly after drafting LeBron?

We dumped pretty much all the young players for vets, and things started to improve.

We then spent our cap space on more vets.

Alas, LeBron took what ... 8 more years to become the kind of player who could lead a team to a championship and he still needed two of the best players in the league around him.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#77 » by LivingLegend » Wed Jun 2, 2021 9:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The whole team simply needs to get better, get deeper, continue to add talent, build chemistry, learn systems, learn to play off each other, etc, etc.

Jason Lloyd expressed some of the same impatience you are in his recent Athletic article, but most players are not done developing and evolving at 21/22 years old. That many players only become valuable on their 2nd or 3rd contract on their 2nd or 3rd team is a huge impediment in our path trying to rebuild through the draft.

Maybe if we'd hired a coach who could extract effort out of players we could have won the 6th seed like Knicks did by scraping together NBA veterans and free agents signing a 1yr prove it deal; but we're won a championship a few years back. We don't need a panacea. We need to build talent, and when we find the right pieces ... maybe ... just maybe we'll have the talent and depth to make a real run.


The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I think you'll find those teams drafted older and became older faster than the Cavs ...

Ja Morant is the youngest player in the Grizzlies starting lineup.
Trae Young is the youngest player in the Hawks starting lineup.
RJ Barrett is the youngest player in the Knicks starting lineup.

Collin Sexton, otoh, is playing with Darius Garland and Isaac Okoro who have both dragged down the team as rookies much like Collin did when he was a rookie. On top of that, our intended starting lineup only played 83 minutes together.

If we draft another 19 year, we're probably going to go through it all again.

The problem is we don't have a dynamic floor raiser on the roster like a Morant or Young. If Garland proves to be that guy, Sexton becomes that guy, or we draft one this year, we will know because he will lift us a lot closer to a playoff birth. It's then we should consider making the kind of move those teams have made.

Otherwise let those young guys continue to learn ... and keep collecting talent.


Thats why I think you have to hope for one of these guys to click thats already on the roster and takeoff. Which is also why I like Garland so much because I honestly believe of any of the young guys on the Cavs that could become a franchise changing player, its Garland.

It would just be nice to be able to draft a guy this year who could come in and be that guy from year 1. Like Morant, Ball, Young, Luka, ect. Shoot I love Okoro but Imagine if we just got a Haliburton type of rookie year from one of these guys.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#78 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 2, 2021 9:53 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
The problem is that we are out of significant amounts of draft assets and we dont have a lot of tradeable pieces that teams would want.. There are a lot of teams that were in the same boat as the Cavs 2-3 years ago and are now in the playoffs like the Grizz/Hawks/Knicks.

Hitting on players sure helps but I still believe the system and coaching is the most important thing in turning around a team.

Im also a firm believer in the Cavs are 1 more young Wing away from being set for their rebuild. I have tons of faith in Sexton/Garland/Okoro/Allen/2021 1st that they can be the core.. I have ZERO faith in the Cavs leadership and coaching staff that they can get the most out of that group in the next 2 seasons.


I think you'll find those teams drafted older and became older faster than the Cavs ...

Ja Morant is the youngest player in the Grizzlies starting lineup.
Trae Young is the youngest player in the Hawks starting lineup.
RJ Barrett is the youngest player in the Knicks starting lineup.

Collin Sexton, otoh, is playing with Darius Garland and Isaac Okoro who have both dragged down the team as rookies much like Collin did when he was a rookie. On top of that, our intended starting lineup only played 83 minutes together.

If we draft another 19 year, we're probably going to go through it all again.

The problem is we don't have a dynamic floor raiser on the roster like a Morant or Young. If Garland proves to be that guy, Sexton becomes that guy, or we draft one this year, we will know because he will lift us a lot closer to a playoff birth. It's then we should consider making the kind of move those teams have made.

Otherwise let those young guys continue to learn ... and keep collecting talent.


Thats why I think you have to hope for one of these guys to click thats already on the roster and takeoff. Which is also why I like Garland so much because I honestly believe of any of the young guys on the Cavs that could become a franchise changing player, its Garland.

It would just be nice to be able to draft a guy this year who could come in and be that guy from year 1. Like Morant, Ball, Young, Luka, ect. Shoot I love Okoro but Imagine if we just got a Haliburton type of rookie year from one of these guys.


Haliburton had an extra season at Iowa State, was a 40+% 3pt shooter and hence was more ready for the league than Okoro. So, that's definitely an example we could have drafted an older player and pushed things along faster. But I'm still pretty fascinated to see where Okoro is at next year.

But even being an advanced rookie playing with vets (and a super speedy pg), Haliburton still couldn't lift the Kings anywhere...
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#79 » by KuruptedCav » Thu Jun 3, 2021 6:21 pm

I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#80 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jun 3, 2021 7:50 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

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