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poll if 7th

Moderator: jbk1234

Cavs have best odds for 7th so with chalk taken who you want them to take or do?

Poll ended at Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am

make a trade up or down
2
67%
pick Jalen Johnson
0
No votes
pick Keon Johnson
0
No votes
pick Kai Jones
0
No votes
pick Sengun
0
No votes
pick Moody
0
No votes
pick Giddey
0
No votes
pick Kispert
0
No votes
pick Isaiah Todd
0
No votes
pick someone not listed
1
33%
 
Total votes: 3

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#81 » by Stillwater » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:44 pm

Barnes could with his versatility as a pg or forward justify a DG or Cedi trade almost in the same way Cade or Suggs could rock the ship. I don't think the Cavs are taking either of the latter the more they talk about their commitment to Sexland which also eliminates Green to some level...although he could play 6th man day 1. So Unless Koby is pissing on the fire there the real targets are 4 players and 4 players only.
Mobley, Sengun,Kuminga and Barnes
I don't see them taking anyone other than those 4 unless they makes trades or plan too.
or get some stupid offer to trade down or something
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#82 » by KuruptedCav » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:52 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

Yeah. I didn’t hate the Zeller selection. I tend to see picks 10-40 as a crap-shoot that’s more of a numbers game than anything.

Leading up though, we all thought he was in play and that we’d argue between him and Jared Sullinger or that Green would be an excellent backup for Harrison Barnes. Big10 basketball fans we all were.

I think Derrick Williams flaming spectacularly as a tweeter hurt him a bit in the draft. Well, that, and Izzo being a good coach who doesn’t always produce the best NBA players.

Ah wells.


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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#83 » by Stillwater » Fri Jun 4, 2021 7:58 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

Yeah. I didn’t hate the Zeller selection. I tend to see picks 10-40 as a crap-shoot that’s more of a numbers game than anything.

Leading up though, we all thought he was in play and that we’d argue between him and Jared Sullinger or that Green would be an excellent backup for Harrison Barnes. Big10 basketball fans we all were.

I think Derrick Williams flaming spectacularly as a tweeter hurt him a bit in the draft. Well, that, and Izzo being a good coach who doesn’t always produce the best NBA players.

Ah wells.


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at least they didnt take fab melo
I wanted them to steal Barton lol
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#84 » by Revenged25 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:01 pm

Stillwater wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

JonFromVA wrote:
lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

Yeah. I didn’t hate the Zeller selection. I tend to see picks 10-40 as a crap-shoot that’s more of a numbers game than anything.

Leading up though, we all thought he was in play and that we’d argue between him and Jared Sullinger or that Green would be an excellent backup for Harrison Barnes. Big10 basketball fans we all were.

I think Derrick Williams flaming spectacularly as a tweeter hurt him a bit in the draft. Well, that, and Izzo being a good coach who doesn’t always produce the best NBA players.

Ah wells.


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at least they didnt take fab melo
I wanted them to steal Barton lol


I wanted Evan Fournier with that pick.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#85 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:58 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I'm starting to really like Scottie Barnes. Like, I know the offensive holes in his game, but the more I watch the court vision and how vocal he is on defense, I see a player that could facilitate an offense with the very capable shooting of Sexland or could pair with Nance and Okoro to lock down other teams. Like the guy who stitches the pieces together into a team.

So there will be a little disappointment when the Cavs aren't getting a steal at #7 by winning a higher pick, lol.


lol, too bad we didn't grab Draymond Green in the 2nd round like Tom Izzo suggested to Dan Gilbert.

What a screw up trading away all those picks just so we could take Tyler Zeller, rather than staying where we were and drafting 3 of the following: Miles Plumlee, Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton, Will Barton, Mike Scott, Kyle O'Quinn.

otoh, we probably would have ended up having give up 3 future first round picks to get them all off the books when LeBron decided to come home.

*sigh*

Yeah. I didn’t hate the Zeller selection. I tend to see picks 10-40 as a crap-shoot that’s more of a numbers game than anything.

Leading up though, we all thought he was in play and that we’d argue between him and Jared Sullinger or that Green would be an excellent backup for Harrison Barnes. Big10 basketball fans we all were.

I think Derrick Williams flaming spectacularly as a tweeter hurt him a bit in the draft. Well, that, and Izzo being a good coach who doesn’t always produce the best NBA players.

Ah wells.


Yep, I get the idea of why we traded up for Zeller in terms of trying to improve our chances of grabbing a legit player, but pretty much everything else was wrong. Perhaps there was a legit reason Zeller fell from where the mocks had him?

If your scouts actually feel that 10-40 is a crap-shoot, though, that's a pretty good reason to take the shotgun approach.

Albeit, Dallas didn't do especially well either with our picks (basically got Jae Crowder then traded him before he did much).
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#86 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 5, 2021 1:37 am

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
Yeah. I didn’t hate the Zeller selection. I tend to see picks 10-40 as a crap-shoot that’s more of a numbers game than anything.

Leading up though, we all thought he was in play and that we’d argue between him and Jared Sullinger or that Green would be an excellent backup for Harrison Barnes. Big10 basketball fans we all were.

I think Derrick Williams flaming spectacularly as a tweeter hurt him a bit in the draft. Well, that, and Izzo being a good coach who doesn’t always produce the best NBA players.

Ah wells.


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at least they didnt take fab melo
I wanted them to steal Barton lol


I wanted Evan Fournier with that pick.

Yeah I did not see that trade happening at all.
was assuming the Perry Jones Will Barton range was where they would be...at 24 then 33 and 34.
Zeller could run the floor and had a decent bb iq but he was too soft for the nba and not worth a 1st and 2nds
The other one I forgot I wanted with one of those 2nds was Jamychal Green who ultimately went udfa. He is still in the league and balling too.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#87 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:46 am

LivingLegend wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I mean only the Hawks are a close-ish example to the Cavs. The Grizzlies had guys Gasol and Conley that they were able to trade, also think they absorbed Iggies contract, to get additional assets to help them spur their rebuild and the Knicks got a ton of assets from the Mavericks for KP.

What the Cavs have done with their pieces has actually been something to applaud.


Nothing because they dont have any assets to give up for anything valuable. Larry Nance maybe? But Im not trading Larry for a late 1st round pick. We could trade Love by attaching Sexton to a deal but IDK if Altman could follow through with that.

The Cavs are also supposed to be winning games because of guys like Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen. They have a massive young player talent pool but its not winning them any games. I blame that on leadership and coaching.

The flaws with the Cavs are far more on the leadership group and the coaching staff than it is about the players. The constant dysfunction with veteran players is on the leadership group and the mind boggling offense the Cavs run is on the coaching staff. The players are all talented, but they are unmotivated and not being maximized.

Small note: The Cavs veterans need to contribute more and stay freaking healthy. Having Prince/Love/Nance/Delly constantly injured is not helping the young guys at all.


Agreed, I said it since last year--on paper when you look at the core 4 young guys and then see Love/Nance and others surrounding them they should eaaasily be a 7-8th seed type of team. Its just nothing clicks, injuries happen, players start fighting with one another.

We saw a glimpse, 1 glimpse of what it should look like and that was the first month of the season this past year. The Cavs were playing great. Guys looked interested, the had a identity, fighting their butts off, ect. Then the wheels came off.

What the Knicks did this year, THAT should have been the Cavs and what I expected/hoped to see out of them in terms of finally playing up to their standard or even exceeding it post-LeBron. We need to be next years NYKs team.
In the beginning of the season, we outhustled a lot of teams, in a relatively soft part of the schedule, who played only a couple months earlier. Meanwhile we had over six months off. It's why I don't put a lot of stock in the but Covid argument.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#88 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:55 am

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I think you'll find those teams drafted older and became older faster than the Cavs ...

Ja Morant is the youngest player in the Grizzlies starting lineup.
Trae Young is the youngest player in the Hawks starting lineup.
RJ Barrett is the youngest player in the Knicks starting lineup.

Collin Sexton, otoh, is playing with Darius Garland and Isaac Okoro who have both dragged down the team as rookies much like Collin did when he was a rookie. On top of that, our intended starting lineup only played 83 minutes together.

If we draft another 19 year, we're probably going to go through it all again.

The problem is we don't have a dynamic floor raiser on the roster like a Morant or Young. If Garland proves to be that guy, Sexton becomes that guy, or we draft one this year, we will know because he will lift us a lot closer to a playoff birth. It's then we should consider making the kind of move those teams have made.

Otherwise let those young guys continue to learn ... and keep collecting talent.


Thats why I think you have to hope for one of these guys to click thats already on the roster and takeoff. Which is also why I like Garland so much because I honestly believe of any of the young guys on the Cavs that could become a franchise changing player, its Garland.

It would just be nice to be able to draft a guy this year who could come in and be that guy from year 1. Like Morant, Ball, Young, Luka, ect. Shoot I love Okoro but Imagine if we just got a Haliburton type of rookie year from one of these guys.


Haliburton had an extra season at Iowa State, was a 40+% 3pt shooter and hence was more ready for the league than Okoro. So, that's definitely an example we could have drafted an older player and pushed things along faster. But I'm still pretty fascinated to see where Okoro is at next year.

But even being an advanced rookie playing with vets (and a super speedy pg), Haliburton still couldn't lift the Kings anywhere...
This works when you're comparing guys who haven't been in the NBA for three years already, or when you're talking about guys who haven't gotten a lot of run in those seasons. But an extra year or two of college play no longer works as an excuse when you've played more minutes in three years than most young players get in their entire rookie contract.

And yes, there are players who take more than their entire rookie contract to make a significant jump. But you don't make a serious commitment to those guys because more often than not you find yourself in a TT situation when you do.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#89 » by LivingLegend » Sat Jun 5, 2021 3:56 am

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Nothing because they dont have any assets to give up for anything valuable. Larry Nance maybe? But Im not trading Larry for a late 1st round pick. We could trade Love by attaching Sexton to a deal but IDK if Altman could follow through with that.

The Cavs are also supposed to be winning games because of guys like Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen. They have a massive young player talent pool but its not winning them any games. I blame that on leadership and coaching.

The flaws with the Cavs are far more on the leadership group and the coaching staff than it is about the players. The constant dysfunction with veteran players is on the leadership group and the mind boggling offense the Cavs run is on the coaching staff. The players are all talented, but they are unmotivated and not being maximized.

Small note: The Cavs veterans need to contribute more and stay freaking healthy. Having Prince/Love/Nance/Delly constantly injured is not helping the young guys at all.


Agreed, I said it since last year--on paper when you look at the core 4 young guys and then see Love/Nance and others surrounding them they should eaaasily be a 7-8th seed type of team. Its just nothing clicks, injuries happen, players start fighting with one another.

We saw a glimpse, 1 glimpse of what it should look like and that was the first month of the season this past year. The Cavs were playing great. Guys looked interested, the had a identity, fighting their butts off, ect. Then the wheels came off.

What the Knicks did this year, THAT should have been the Cavs and what I expected/hoped to see out of them in terms of finally playing up to their standard or even exceeding it post-LeBron. We need to be next years NYKs team.
In the beginning of the season, we outhustled a lot of teams, in a relatively soft part of the schedule, who played only a couple months earlier. Meanwhile we had over six months off. It's why I don't put a lot of stock in the but Covid argument.

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I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#90 » by JonFromVA » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:40 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Thats why I think you have to hope for one of these guys to click thats already on the roster and takeoff. Which is also why I like Garland so much because I honestly believe of any of the young guys on the Cavs that could become a franchise changing player, its Garland.

It would just be nice to be able to draft a guy this year who could come in and be that guy from year 1. Like Morant, Ball, Young, Luka, ect. Shoot I love Okoro but Imagine if we just got a Haliburton type of rookie year from one of these guys.


Haliburton had an extra season at Iowa State, was a 40+% 3pt shooter and hence was more ready for the league than Okoro. So, that's definitely an example we could have drafted an older player and pushed things along faster. But I'm still pretty fascinated to see where Okoro is at next year.

But even being an advanced rookie playing with vets (and a super speedy pg), Haliburton still couldn't lift the Kings anywhere...
This works when you're comparing guys who haven't been in the NBA for three years already, or when you're talking about guys who haven't gotten a lot of run in those seasons. But an extra year or two of college play no longer works as an excuse when you've played more minutes in three years than most young players get in their entire rookie contract.

And yes, there are players who take more than their entire rookie contract to make a significant jump. But you don't make a serious commitment to those guys because more often than not you find yourself in a TT situation when you do.

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We risk our players ending up dating Kardashian's?

If that never happened and TT kept playing like he was in 2015 and 2016 ... I have no issues with his contract ... which in fact was only a couple million overall more than we originally offered.

I also do not see a strong relation between games played and experience gained and feel quite comfortable looking simply at seasons played at either level. Fact is players are practicing or playing one form of ball or another all year long UNLESS injured. Physical maturity is mostly a function of age plus working out.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#91 » by JonFromVA » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:45 am

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Agreed, I said it since last year--on paper when you look at the core 4 young guys and then see Love/Nance and others surrounding them they should eaaasily be a 7-8th seed type of team. Its just nothing clicks, injuries happen, players start fighting with one another.

We saw a glimpse, 1 glimpse of what it should look like and that was the first month of the season this past year. The Cavs were playing great. Guys looked interested, the had a identity, fighting their butts off, ect. Then the wheels came off.

What the Knicks did this year, THAT should have been the Cavs and what I expected/hoped to see out of them in terms of finally playing up to their standard or even exceeding it post-LeBron. We need to be next years NYKs team.
In the beginning of the season, we outhustled a lot of teams, in a relatively soft part of the schedule, who played only a couple months earlier. Meanwhile we had over six months off. It's why I don't put a lot of stock in the but Covid argument.

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I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.


We weren't really as good as we seemed then nor as bad as we finished the season. Larry was pretty amazing before he got hurt, though.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#92 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 9:54 am

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Agreed, I said it since last year--on paper when you look at the core 4 young guys and then see Love/Nance and others surrounding them they should eaaasily be a 7-8th seed type of team. Its just nothing clicks, injuries happen, players start fighting with one another.

We saw a glimpse, 1 glimpse of what it should look like and that was the first month of the season this past year. The Cavs were playing great. Guys looked interested, the had a identity, fighting their butts off, ect. Then the wheels came off.

What the Knicks did this year, THAT should have been the Cavs and what I expected/hoped to see out of them in terms of finally playing up to their standard or even exceeding it post-LeBron. We need to be next years NYKs team.
In the beginning of the season, we outhustled a lot of teams, in a relatively soft part of the schedule, who played only a couple months earlier. Meanwhile we had over six months off. It's why I don't put a lot of stock in the but Covid argument.

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I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.
It's undeniable that the level of competition matters. There's a reason we went from roughly .500 around 20 games to 10-21 after the Western Conference trip and most of it was related to our inability to get stops against good teams. Teams also watched tape on Sexton after his hot start and adjusted their defenses. But that road trip was when we started trading 2 points for 3 points.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#93 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 10:03 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Haliburton had an extra season at Iowa State, was a 40+% 3pt shooter and hence was more ready for the league than Okoro. So, that's definitely an example we could have drafted an older player and pushed things along faster. But I'm still pretty fascinated to see where Okoro is at next year.

But even being an advanced rookie playing with vets (and a super speedy pg), Haliburton still couldn't lift the Kings anywhere...
This works when you're comparing guys who haven't been in the NBA for three years already, or when you're talking about guys who haven't gotten a lot of run in those seasons. But an extra year or two of college play no longer works as an excuse when you've played more minutes in three years than most young players get in their entire rookie contract.

And yes, there are players who take more than their entire rookie contract to make a significant jump. But you don't make a serious commitment to those guys because more often than not you find yourself in a TT situation when you do.

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We risk our players ending up dating Kardashian's?

If that never happened and TT kept playing like he was in 2015 and 2016 ... I have no issues with his contract ... which in fact was only a couple million overall more than we originally offered.

I also do not see a strong relation between games played and experience gained and feel quite comfortable looking simply at seasons played at either level. Fact is players are practicing or playing one form of ball or another all year long UNLESS injured. Physical maturity is mostly a function of age plus working out.
TT was a good matchup against the Warriors because they played small with Draymond and tried to force switches all the time. But outside of that specific context, where the Cavs could afford to play 4 on 5 offensively due to having elite offensive players at other positions, TT simply wasn't very good.

Klutch knew it which is why they held him out rather than allow him to play on the Q.O. after his Finals series. The rest of the league knew it which is why no team presented an offer sheet he would actually sign. The first time he was actually an unrestricted F.A., he got the MLE. It's not even clear that the league views TT on a MLE deal as a good contract.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#94 » by JonFromVA » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:16 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:In the beginning of the season, we outhustled a lot of teams, in a relatively soft part of the schedule, who played only a couple months earlier. Meanwhile we had over six months off. It's why I don't put a lot of stock in the but Covid argument.

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I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.
It's undeniable that the level of competition matters. There's a reason we went from roughly .500 around 20 games to 10-21 after the Western Conference trip and most of it was related to our inability to get stops against good teams. Teams also watched tape on Sexton after his hot start and adjusted their defenses. But that road trip was when we started trading 2 points for 3 points.


We lost Drummond trying to earn a max contract and Larry Nance Jr to injury before that brutal West coast trip.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#95 » by JonFromVA » Sat Jun 5, 2021 4:31 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:This works when you're comparing guys who haven't been in the NBA for three years already, or when you're talking about guys who haven't gotten a lot of run in those seasons. But an extra year or two of college play no longer works as an excuse when you've played more minutes in three years than most young players get in their entire rookie contract.

And yes, there are players who take more than their entire rookie contract to make a significant jump. But you don't make a serious commitment to those guys because more often than not you find yourself in a TT situation when you do.

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We risk our players ending up dating Kardashian's?

If that never happened and TT kept playing like he was in 2015 and 2016 ... I have no issues with his contract ... which in fact was only a couple million overall more than we originally offered.

I also do not see a strong relation between games played and experience gained and feel quite comfortable looking simply at seasons played at either level. Fact is players are practicing or playing one form of ball or another all year long UNLESS injured. Physical maturity is mostly a function of age plus working out.
TT was a good matchup against the Warriors because they played small with Draymond and tried to force switches all the time. But outside of that specific context, where the Cavs could afford to play 4 on 5 offensively due to having elite offensive players at other positions, TT simply wasn't very good.

Klutch knew it which is why they held him out rather than allow him to play on the Q.O. after his Finals series. The rest of the league knew it which is why no team presented an offer sheet he would actually sign. The first time he was actually an unrestricted F.A., he got the MLE. It's not even clear that the league views TT on a MLE deal as a good contract.


Just not true ... he and Timo played Bogut off the floor in the 2015 finals causing the Warriors to go small. Fact is TT was at best a situational Center that was forced in to playing Center for the sake of floor spacing and the lack of a stretch-5 option. He still held his own against his draft peers like Valanciunas and Kanter as well as the Horford, Millsap's, Gibson's of our playoff opponents.

Like I already said, the Cavs bumped up their offer slightly to end his hold out, but he got paid barely more than his initial offer. Of course he was worth the most to the Cavs because we were already over the cap.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#96 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 6:32 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
We risk our players ending up dating Kardashian's?

If that never happened and TT kept playing like he was in 2015 and 2016 ... I have no issues with his contract ... which in fact was only a couple million overall more than we originally offered.

I also do not see a strong relation between games played and experience gained and feel quite comfortable looking simply at seasons played at either level. Fact is players are practicing or playing one form of ball or another all year long UNLESS injured. Physical maturity is mostly a function of age plus working out.
TT was a good matchup against the Warriors because they played small with Draymond and tried to force switches all the time. But outside of that specific context, where the Cavs could afford to play 4 on 5 offensively due to having elite offensive players at other positions, TT simply wasn't very good.

Klutch knew it which is why they held him out rather than allow him to play on the Q.O. after his Finals series. The rest of the league knew it which is why no team presented an offer sheet he would actually sign. The first time he was actually an unrestricted F.A., he got the MLE. It's not even clear that the league views TT on a MLE deal as a good contract.


Just not true ... he and Timo played Bogut off the floor in the 2015 finals causing the Warriors to go small. Fact is TT was at best a situational Center that was forced in to playing Center for the sake of floor spacing and the lack of a stretch-5 option. He still held his own against his draft peers like Valanciunas and Kanter as well as the Horford, Millsap's, Gibson's of our playoff opponents.

Like I already said, the Cavs bumped up their offer slightly to end his hold out, but he got paid barely more than his initial offer. Of course he was worth the most to the Cavs because we were already over the cap.
I'm honestly confused by this post. TT's natural position has always been center (albeit an undersized, one-way center). Even before the Warriors turned the NBA into a three point contest, your PF was expected to be able to at least hit an elbow jumper. You can't really play him next to a traditional center.

Anyway, my point is that TT is an MLE player, and had he not been surrounded by Kyrie, Love, and LBJ, likely never would've gotten a contract for more than that. He's the example as to why committing to, or paying a player based on infinite projection is dangerous. Because some times what you see is what you get.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#97 » by LivingLegend » Sat Jun 5, 2021 9:49 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:In the beginning of the season, we outhustled a lot of teams, in a relatively soft part of the schedule, who played only a couple months earlier. Meanwhile we had over six months off. It's why I don't put a lot of stock in the but Covid argument.

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I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.
It's undeniable that the level of competition matters. There's a reason we went from roughly .500 around 20 games to 10-21 after the Western Conference trip and most of it was related to our inability to get stops against good teams. Teams also watched tape on Sexton after his hot start and adjusted their defenses. But that road trip was when we started trading 2 points for 3 points.

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I'm not saying it doesn't, but we are not talking about a 1&2 week sample size. We were #1 in defense, assists and steals like 1.5 months into the season.

The biggest issue is how it went from that, all the way the dead last in the league in everything. Regression was expected, but regression to where they finished the year was much to far of a fall
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#98 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 5, 2021 10:29 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.
It's undeniable that the level of competition matters. There's a reason we went from roughly .500 around 20 games to 10-21 after the Western Conference trip and most of it was related to our inability to get stops against good teams. Teams also watched tape on Sexton after his hot start and adjusted their defenses. But that road trip was when we started trading 2 points for 3 points.

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I'm not saying it doesn't, but we are not talking about a 1&2 week sample size. We were #1 in defense, assists and steals like 1.5 months into the season.

The biggest issue is how it went from that, all the way the dead last in the league in everything. Regression was expected, but regression to where they finished the year was much to far of a fall

Nance was on a tare early on dominating defensively and the Cavs were getting a **** of interest for him then boom he was gone.
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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#99 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 5, 2021 11:20 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I dont believe that, it might have helped the Cavs but there was no denying they were just clicking and actually looked good the first 6ish weeks of the year.

The Cavs offense was fun, it was smooth and the ball was hopping. They were leading the league in assists at one point. They also played with 110% effort on defense.

The level of competition or teams coming out of a Covid year doesn't affect the style of offense we run or the overall effort on defense.
It's undeniable that the level of competition matters. There's a reason we went from roughly .500 around 20 games to 10-21 after the Western Conference trip and most of it was related to our inability to get stops against good teams. Teams also watched tape on Sexton after his hot start and adjusted their defenses. But that road trip was when we started trading 2 points for 3 points.

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I'm not saying it doesn't, but we are not talking about a 1&2 week sample size. We were #1 in defense, assists and steals like 1.5 months into the season.

The biggest issue is how it went from that, all the way the dead last in the league in everything. Regression was expected, but regression to where they finished the year was much to far of a fall
It was a 20 game sample size over the softer part of our schedule. We were relatively healthy and well rested. Many of the teams we played were not. Again, teams began to scout Sexton and game plan against him.

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Re: poll if 7th 

Post#100 » by LivingLegend » Sun Jun 6, 2021 2:46 am

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:It's undeniable that the level of competition matters. There's a reason we went from roughly .500 around 20 games to 10-21 after the Western Conference trip and most of it was related to our inability to get stops against good teams. Teams also watched tape on Sexton after his hot start and adjusted their defenses. But that road trip was when we started trading 2 points for 3 points.

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I'm not saying it doesn't, but we are not talking about a 1&2 week sample size. We were #1 in defense, assists and steals like 1.5 months into the season.

The biggest issue is how it went from that, all the way the dead last in the league in everything. Regression was expected, but regression to where they finished the year was much to far of a fall
It was a 20 game sample size over the softer part of our schedule. We were relatively healthy and well rested. Many of the teams we played were not. Again, teams began to scout Sexton and game plan against him.

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It wasn't the fact of who we were playing that I'm talking about, it was how we were playing.

Our offense actually looked like something a NBA coach drew up with passing passing passing passing and our defense was played with aggression.

Our schedule getting harder should not change the entire philosophy of our offense and make us go from playing aggressively on defense to playing passively and weak.

Effort isn't something that should fluctuate depending on strength of schedule.

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