ImageImageImage

Collin Sexton breaks down his own game

Moderator: jbk1234

JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#21 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jun 7, 2021 1:21 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Honestly, there is something about Sexton that just bothers me. You look at his stats and go 'wow this guy is good' then you watch the Cavs play and look at their record and go 'is this guy contributing to winning?'

I think his impact is that of a poor mans Westbrook. His stats look pretty but when you watch the games there is something hollow there.

Watching Garland play, you can tell he makes the team better. The offensive flow is so much better, guys are getting involved easily with his drive/kicks and P&R. It all just looks.....smoother and more like a good NBA offense with Garland.


Hopefully all our young players have some more gears they can kick it in to as they develop, because as things sit now? The level of production isn't all that great.

I'm not a big fan of box score derived stats like BPM or PER, but because of our team problems, it's at least somewhat interesting. The good news is that both Collin and Darius's BPM have improved. The bad news is that Sexton's is 0.0 and Garland's is -1.6. What's interesting about that is that it's telling us that inspite of Collin stuffing the stat sheet nicely in some areas, overall, he's playing like a decent starter or a solid 6th man. Darius is still bench level.

You know who else in the league has a 0 BPM? ... Devin Booker.

If our guys get to the point where Mitchell (+3.5) and Conley (+4.4) are in Utah ... we might have something.

I'd also be happy with Lillard (+5.9) and McCollum (+3.3).

And it's not just that this stat hates players on losing teams, De'Aaron Fox was +1.4 and Tyrese Haliburton was +1.1.

Hopefully Garland and Sexton take a step up in that neighborhood next year? To get much higher, I think we need a lot of team synergy stuff to start clicking, perhaps helping them improve their efficiency, and generate more assists. Steals, rebounds, blocks? Probably not too much room for improvement there.
What's the delta between +/- and BPM? Without even looking, I bet it exists and I bet it's significant.


+/- isn't especially useful for the Cavs due to all the dysfunctional lineups. I brought up BPM to show that while Garland and Sexton are filling up certain areas of the box score, they still have a long ways to go. And it's not a small thing like simply dishing more assists because teammates make more shots.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#22 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:51 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Hopefully all our young players have some more gears they can kick it in to as they develop, because as things sit now? The level of production isn't all that great.

I'm not a big fan of box score derived stats like BPM or PER, but because of our team problems, it's at least somewhat interesting. The good news is that both Collin and Darius's BPM have improved. The bad news is that Sexton's is 0.0 and Garland's is -1.6. What's interesting about that is that it's telling us that inspite of Collin stuffing the stat sheet nicely in some areas, overall, he's playing like a decent starter or a solid 6th man. Darius is still bench level.

You know who else in the league has a 0 BPM? ... Devin Booker.

If our guys get to the point where Mitchell (+3.5) and Conley (+4.4) are in Utah ... we might have something.

I'd also be happy with Lillard (+5.9) and McCollum (+3.3).

And it's not just that this stat hates players on losing teams, De'Aaron Fox was +1.4 and Tyrese Haliburton was +1.1.

Hopefully Garland and Sexton take a step up in that neighborhood next year? To get much higher, I think we need a lot of team synergy stuff to start clicking, perhaps helping them improve their efficiency, and generate more assists. Steals, rebounds, blocks? Probably not too much room for improvement there.
What's the delta between +/- and BPM? Without even looking, I bet it exists and I bet it's significant.


+/- isn't especially useful for the Cavs due to all the dysfunctional lineups. I brought up BPM to show that while Garland and Sexton are filling up certain areas of the box score, they still have a long ways to go. And it's not a small thing like simply dishing more assists because teammates make more shots.
I have a hard time with the idea that BPM, which seeks to extrapolate +/- based on box score stats, is more reliable than actual +/-. If the predictions aren't matching the results, it's worth asking why.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#23 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:07 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:What's the delta between +/- and BPM? Without even looking, I bet it exists and I bet it's significant.


+/- isn't especially useful for the Cavs due to all the dysfunctional lineups. I brought up BPM to show that while Garland and Sexton are filling up certain areas of the box score, they still have a long ways to go. And it's not a small thing like simply dishing more assists because teammates make more shots.
I have a hard time with the idea that BPM, which seeks to extrapolate +/- based on box score stats, is more reliable than actual +/-. If the predictions aren't matching the results, it's worth asking why.


I don't think of BPM that way, I think of it as a more accurate version of PER; but unlike PER it does try to divvy up it's points from over all team performance. Some players are able to generate a good BPM on a bad team, and some players end up with a bad BPM on a good team.

The only Cavs players with a positive BPM this season was Hartenstein, Allen, and Nance Jr. Collin fell in right behind them. So, it is still somewhat circular; but consider Kyrie was putting up a BPM of 4.1 as a rookie on a 21 win team. Andy was the only other positive player at 1.1. So something Kyrie was doing (or his teammates were not doing) was giving him a whole lot more credit for those meager wins than Collin is getting.

And that's to my point.

Collin is putting up some very promising stats for his age in specific areas and his PER looks solid, but the BPM models suggest that a successful player would be filling up a lot more of those columns in the box.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#24 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:18 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
+/- isn't especially useful for the Cavs due to all the dysfunctional lineups. I brought up BPM to show that while Garland and Sexton are filling up certain areas of the box score, they still have a long ways to go. And it's not a small thing like simply dishing more assists because teammates make more shots.
I have a hard time with the idea that BPM, which seeks to extrapolate +/- based on box score stats, is more reliable than actual +/-. If the predictions aren't matching the results, it's worth asking why.


I don't think of BPM that way, I think of it as a more accurate version of PER; but unlike PER it does try to divvy up it's points from over all team performance. Some players are able to generate a good BPM on a bad team, and some players end up with a bad BPM on a good team.

The only Cavs players with a positive BPM this season was Hartenstein, Allen, and Nance Jr. Collin fell in right behind them. So, it is still somewhat circular; but consider Kyrie was putting up a BPM of 4.1 as a rookie on a 21 win team. Andy was the only other positive player at 1.1. So something Kyrie was doing (or his teammates were not doing) was giving him a whole lot more credit for those meager wins than Collin is getting.

And that's to my point.

Collin is putting up some very promising stats for his age in specific areas and his PER looks solid, but the BPM models suggest that a successful player would be filling up a lot more of those columns in the box.


Basketball reference has him with a net zero BPM last season. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sextoco01.html

ESPN has him at a 0.08 RPM. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/1

NBA has his +/- at -6.3 on the season. https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629012/
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 728
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#25 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:30 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
+/- isn't especially useful for the Cavs due to all the dysfunctional lineups. I brought up BPM to show that while Garland and Sexton are filling up certain areas of the box score, they still have a long ways to go. And it's not a small thing like simply dishing more assists because teammates make more shots.
I have a hard time with the idea that BPM, which seeks to extrapolate +/- based on box score stats, is more reliable than actual +/-. If the predictions aren't matching the results, it's worth asking why.


I don't think of BPM that way, I think of it as a more accurate version of PER; but unlike PER it does try to divvy up it's points from over all team performance. Some players are able to generate a good BPM on a bad team, and some players end up with a bad BPM on a good team.

The only Cavs players with a positive BPM this season was Hartenstein, Allen, and Nance Jr. Collin fell in right behind them. So, it is still somewhat circular; but consider Kyrie was putting up a BPM of 4.1 as a rookie on a 21 win team. Andy was the only other positive player at 1.1. So something Kyrie was doing (or his teammates were not doing) was giving him a whole lot more credit for those meager wins than Collin is getting.

And that's to my point.

Collin is putting up some very promising stats for his age in specific areas and his PER looks solid, but the BPM models suggest that a successful player would be filling up a lot more of those columns in the box.


By BPM you're referring to the stat in like the Advanced section of basketball reference right? So how do you feel about Devin Booker?
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#26 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 8, 2021 7:37 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I have a hard time with the idea that BPM, which seeks to extrapolate +/- based on box score stats, is more reliable than actual +/-. If the predictions aren't matching the results, it's worth asking why.


I don't think of BPM that way, I think of it as a more accurate version of PER; but unlike PER it does try to divvy up it's points from over all team performance. Some players are able to generate a good BPM on a bad team, and some players end up with a bad BPM on a good team.

The only Cavs players with a positive BPM this season was Hartenstein, Allen, and Nance Jr. Collin fell in right behind them. So, it is still somewhat circular; but consider Kyrie was putting up a BPM of 4.1 as a rookie on a 21 win team. Andy was the only other positive player at 1.1. So something Kyrie was doing (or his teammates were not doing) was giving him a whole lot more credit for those meager wins than Collin is getting.

And that's to my point.

Collin is putting up some very promising stats for his age in specific areas and his PER looks solid, but the BPM models suggest that a successful player would be filling up a lot more of those columns in the box.


By BPM you're referring to the stat in like the Advanced section of basketball reference right? So how do you feel about Devin Booker?


Yep, and I'd conclude the same thing for his -0.1 BPM that I did with Collin, that he's not filling up the box score in the way that the BPM model predicts a player who contributes more to winning would.

None of this means Collin or Booker can't contribute to a winning team (obviously Booker is), but look at Phoenix's offensive rating. It's 117.2 which if you divide it by 200 you get .586 points per possession. Booker's TS% is coincidentally .587, which means when he's scoring the ball (his strength) he's providing average offense to the Suns. So, we can kind of see why BPM isn't so excited by his raw scoring.

Whether his raw scoring and his threat as an offensive player creates a baseline of production or makes it easier for other Sun's players to score is a possibility, but not something BPM can examine except in the assist column.

Otoh, BPM likes Donovan Mitchell even though his TS% is 56.9%, but it seems to like a number of Utah players. Perhaps it just sees the load being more balanced on Utah, and of course Utah has lots of wins to spread.
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 728
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#27 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 8:30 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I don't think of BPM that way, I think of it as a more accurate version of PER; but unlike PER it does try to divvy up it's points from over all team performance. Some players are able to generate a good BPM on a bad team, and some players end up with a bad BPM on a good team.

The only Cavs players with a positive BPM this season was Hartenstein, Allen, and Nance Jr. Collin fell in right behind them. So, it is still somewhat circular; but consider Kyrie was putting up a BPM of 4.1 as a rookie on a 21 win team. Andy was the only other positive player at 1.1. So something Kyrie was doing (or his teammates were not doing) was giving him a whole lot more credit for those meager wins than Collin is getting.

And that's to my point.

Collin is putting up some very promising stats for his age in specific areas and his PER looks solid, but the BPM models suggest that a successful player would be filling up a lot more of those columns in the box.


By BPM you're referring to the stat in like the Advanced section of basketball reference right? So how do you feel about Devin Booker?


Yep, and I'd conclude the same thing for his -0.1 BPM that I did with Collin, that he's not filling up the box score in the way that the BPM model predicts a player who contributes more to winning would.

None of this means Collin or Booker can't contribute to a winning team (obviously Booker is), but look at Phoenix's offensive rating. It's 117.2 which if you divide it by 200 you get .586 points per possession. Booker's TS% is coincidentally .587, which means when he's scoring the ball (his strength) he's providing average offense to the Suns. So, we can kind of see why BPM isn't so excited by his raw scoring.

Whether his raw scoring and his threat as an offensive player creates a baseline of production or makes it easier for other Sun's players to score is a possibility, but not something BPM can examine except in the assist column.

Otoh, BPM likes Donovan Mitchell even though his TS% is 56.9%, but it seems to like a number of Utah players. Perhaps it just sees the load being more balanced on Utah, and of course Utah has lots of wins to spread.


So Cleveland's 105.8 ORating/200 would be .529 PPP using your strategy and Sexton's .573 TS% means that Sexton was a lot more productive in right? Also Garland TS% was .547 just to put that into perspective.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#28 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 8, 2021 10:27 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
By BPM you're referring to the stat in like the Advanced section of basketball reference right? So how do you feel about Devin Booker?


Yep, and I'd conclude the same thing for his -0.1 BPM that I did with Collin, that he's not filling up the box score in the way that the BPM model predicts a player who contributes more to winning would.

None of this means Collin or Booker can't contribute to a winning team (obviously Booker is), but look at Phoenix's offensive rating. It's 117.2 which if you divide it by 200 you get .586 points per possession. Booker's TS% is coincidentally .587, which means when he's scoring the ball (his strength) he's providing average offense to the Suns. So, we can kind of see why BPM isn't so excited by his raw scoring.

Whether his raw scoring and his threat as an offensive player creates a baseline of production or makes it easier for other Sun's players to score is a possibility, but not something BPM can examine except in the assist column.

Otoh, BPM likes Donovan Mitchell even though his TS% is 56.9%, but it seems to like a number of Utah players. Perhaps it just sees the load being more balanced on Utah, and of course Utah has lots of wins to spread.


So Cleveland's 105.8 ORating/200 would be .529 PPP using your strategy and Sexton's .573 TS% means that Sexton was a lot more productive in right? Also Garland TS% was .547 just to put that into perspective.


In terms of personal scoring efficiency as it can be measured via the box score? Absolutely.

But for instance, Nance Jr had a slightly higher BPM than Collin even though he doesn't score anywhere near as much nor as efficiently, doesn't even dish as many assists. It's again, all those other categories.

Although, I just noticed that BPM uses different weightings based on player position.

Which means a small player who does big man things and a big man who does small player things gets extra credit; but a big man gets penalized for taking too many shots or free throws.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html
toooskies
Sophomore
Posts: 113
And1: 48
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#29 » by toooskies » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:01 pm

BPM hates SGs on the whole, though. It says ratings between 0.0 and 2.0 to be starter-level players, but the 10th-ranked SG (with enough minutes to qualify) has a 0.1 rating on BPM. So Sexton's -0.1 is in the middle of starter-level players. Not bad for a third-year guard.

Of course, the worst SG in the league by that metric was Okoro at -5.0. (But BPM, like most traditional box score stat systems, is terrible at measuring defense-- but his offense is, um, really bad.)

But something that's definitely negatively affecting the advanced stats of our guards is rebounding. Garland, Sexton, and Okoro are three of the lowest players in terms of defensive rebounding rate last year. If one or two of them were at the bottom, maybe they're bad rebounders, but all of them there is a consequence of coaching. So every advanced stat that takes rebounding into account is going to underrate them.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#30 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:16 pm

toooskies wrote:BPM hates SGs on the whole, though. It says ratings between 0.0 and 2.0 to be starter-level players, but the 10th-ranked SG (with enough minutes to qualify) has a 0.1 rating on BPM. So Sexton's -0.1 is in the middle of starter-level players. Not bad for a third-year guard.

Of course, the worst SG in the league by that metric was Okoro at -5.0. (But BPM, like most traditional box score stat systems, is terrible at measuring defense-- but his offense is, um, really bad.)

But something that's definitely negatively affecting the advanced stats of our guards is rebounding. Garland, Sexton, and Okoro are three of the lowest players in terms of defensive rebounding rate last year. If one or two of them were at the bottom, maybe they're bad rebounders, but all of them there is a consequence of coaching. So every advanced stat that takes rebounding into account is going to underrate them.


It's likely the model is trying to tell us something about the relative value of shooting guards. :)

Collin's age is a big factor, but just looking at the list of SG's (especially when combos like Harden, Irving, and Mitchell got labelled PG's), there just aren't that many deserving of max pay.

Ranked by highest BPM, we've got Bogdanovic, SGA, LaVine, McCollum, Beal, Brown, VanVleet, Wright, Thybulle, Rozier, Lamb, Clarkson, Burks, JTA, Powell, Hardaway Jr, Reggie Jackson, Collin, Booker, DiVencenzo, LeVert, Dinwiddie, etc, etc,

Out of that list Beal and Booker would likely be maxed if they were free-agents. Someone might overpay and max SGA, McCollum, and Brown just to be able to add them? Chicago might max LaVine?

If we pay Collin anything close to the max, it will have to be because we think he will be right up there in a couple of years.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#31 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:57 am

JonFromVA wrote:
toooskies wrote:BPM hates SGs on the whole, though. It says ratings between 0.0 and 2.0 to be starter-level players, but the 10th-ranked SG (with enough minutes to qualify) has a 0.1 rating on BPM. So Sexton's -0.1 is in the middle of starter-level players. Not bad for a third-year guard.

Of course, the worst SG in the league by that metric was Okoro at -5.0. (But BPM, like most traditional box score stat systems, is terrible at measuring defense-- but his offense is, um, really bad.)

But something that's definitely negatively affecting the advanced stats of our guards is rebounding. Garland, Sexton, and Okoro are three of the lowest players in terms of defensive rebounding rate last year. If one or two of them were at the bottom, maybe they're bad rebounders, but all of them there is a consequence of coaching. So every advanced stat that takes rebounding into account is going to underrate them.


It's likely the model is trying to tell us something about the relative value of shooting guards. :)

Collin's age is a big factor, but just looking at the list of SG's (especially when combos like Harden, Irving, and Mitchell got labelled PG's), there just aren't that many deserving of max pay.

Ranked by highest BPM, we've got Bogdanovic, SGA, LaVine, McCollum, Beal, Brown, VanVleet, Wright, Thybulle, Rozier, Lamb, Clarkson, Burks, JTA, Powell, Hardaway Jr, Reggie Jackson, Collin, Booker, DiVencenzo, LeVert, Dinwiddie, etc, etc,

Out of that list Beal and Booker would likely be maxed if they were free-agents. Someone might overpay and max SGA, McCollum, and Brown just to be able to add them? Chicago might max LaVine?

If we pay Collin anything close to the max, it will have to be because we think he will be right up there in a couple of years.
I'll ask again, what was the delta between BPM and on/off with these comps.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
toooskies
Sophomore
Posts: 113
And1: 48
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#32 » by toooskies » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:11 pm

Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,263
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#33 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:30 pm

toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Which is supported by the fact those numbers were reversed earlier in the season.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#34 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:03 pm

toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Where ever you're getting those numbers from is far more charitable to Sexton than NBA.com.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
LivingLegend
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,357
And1: 6,332
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#35 » by LivingLegend » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:18 pm

toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Getting a capable backup PG is essential this offseason. Not sure who is out there, maybe even bringing back Delly, but the Cavs investing in competent veteran backups to these young players will be essential. THE most important thing this offseason.

We should really try to match a veteran to every young player we have.

So...

PG) Garland ---> Patty Mills
SG) Okoro ---> Alec Burks
SF) Kuminga---> Taurean Prince
PF) Nance ---> Kevin Love
C) Allen ---> Robin Lopez

6th) Sexton

Those are just examples but thats the structure I would like to see from this team. I know Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas are young and there but I would love to see a heavier investment to capable veterans this offseason. Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas off the bench arnt winning the Cavs games or raising their ceiling--but guys like Mills and Lopez will and they will also push the young guys in front of them
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,594
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#36 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:33 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Getting a capable backup PG is essential this offseason. Not sure who is out there, maybe even bringing back Delly, but the Cavs investing in competent veteran backups to these young players will be essential. THE most important thing this offseason.

We should really try to match a veteran to every young player we have.

So...

PG) Garland ---> Patty Mills
SG) Okoro ---> Alec Burks
SF) Kuminga---> Taurean Prince
PF) Nance ---> Kevin Love
C) Allen ---> Robin Lopez

6th) Sexton

Those are just examples but thats the structure I would like to see from this team. I know Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas are young and there but I would love to see a heavier investment to capable veterans this offseason. Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas off the bench arnt winning the Cavs games or raising their ceiling--but guys like Mills and Lopez will and they will also push the young guys in front of them

LOL you can't speak it into existence but you keep on trying.
I'd like to see them grab Cam Payne
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#37 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:50 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Getting a capable backup PG is essential this offseason. Not sure who is out there, maybe even bringing back Delly, but the Cavs investing in competent veteran backups to these young players will be essential. THE most important thing this offseason.

We should really try to match a veteran to every young player we have.

So...

PG) Garland ---> Patty Mills
SG) Okoro ---> Alec Burks
SF) Kuminga---> Taurean Prince
PF) Nance ---> Kevin Love
C) Allen ---> Robin Lopez

6th) Sexton

Those are just examples but thats the structure I would like to see from this team. I know Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas are young and there but I would love to see a heavier investment to capable veterans this offseason. Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas off the bench arnt winning the Cavs games or raising their ceiling--but guys like Mills and Lopez will and they will also push the young guys in front of them
I'd want a better player than Patty Mills as the backup PG. There are a number of eligible candidates and the Cavs have the full MLE. I think McConnell out of Indiana or Payne are guys they should try to steal. Neither are restricted nor have they seen a good contract in their careers.

I want nothing to do with Robin Lopez. I'm paying Hatenstein instead.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
LivingLegend
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,357
And1: 6,332
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#38 » by LivingLegend » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:12 am

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Getting a capable backup PG is essential this offseason. Not sure who is out there, maybe even bringing back Delly, but the Cavs investing in competent veteran backups to these young players will be essential. THE most important thing this offseason.

We should really try to match a veteran to every young player we have.

So...

PG) Garland ---> Patty Mills
SG) Okoro ---> Alec Burks
SF) Kuminga---> Taurean Prince
PF) Nance ---> Kevin Love
C) Allen ---> Robin Lopez

6th) Sexton

Those are just examples but thats the structure I would like to see from this team. I know Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas are young and there but I would love to see a heavier investment to capable veterans this offseason. Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas off the bench arnt winning the Cavs games or raising their ceiling--but guys like Mills and Lopez will and they will also push the young guys in front of them
I'd want a better player than Patty Mills as the backup PG. There are a number of eligible candidates and the Cavs have the full MLE. I think McConnell out of Indiana or Payne are guys they should try to steal. Neither are restricted nor have they seen a good contract in their careers.

I want nothing to do with Robin Lopez. I'm paying Hatenstein instead.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Well yeah Mills was just a name I was throwing out there. Somebody whose experienced, somebody who is consistent, ECT. Just give me somebody that knows what they are doing and is not a unproven project.

Also, Hartrnstein seems like a good project but he is not a guy I want to rely on next year, at all. Having him play in limited mins is fine but he isn't exactly who I picture when we are talking about reliable veteran.
LivingLegend
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,357
And1: 6,332
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#39 » by LivingLegend » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:16 am

Stillwater wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
toooskies wrote:Sexton's on/off +/- is -1.9, while Garland has a +3.9.

But keep in mind that a) playing Sexton at PG on offense is playing him out of position relative to his skillset, b) not having an NBA-level backup PG meant that Sexton was playing PG (or with a bad PG) far too much whenever Garland wasn't on the floor, and c) Garland was out at the end of the year, so he didn't get much stink from our closing tanking stretch against a bunch of good teams.


Getting a capable backup PG is essential this offseason. Not sure who is out there, maybe even bringing back Delly, but the Cavs investing in competent veteran backups to these young players will be essential. THE most important thing this offseason.

We should really try to match a veteran to every young player we have.

So...

PG) Garland ---> Patty Mills
SG) Okoro ---> Alec Burks
SF) Kuminga---> Taurean Prince
PF) Nance ---> Kevin Love
C) Allen ---> Robin Lopez

6th) Sexton

Those are just examples but thats the structure I would like to see from this team. I know Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas are young and there but I would love to see a heavier investment to capable veterans this offseason. Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas off the bench arnt winning the Cavs games or raising their ceiling--but guys like Mills and Lopez will and they will also push the young guys in front of them

LOL you can't speak it into existence but you keep on trying.
I'd like to see them grab Cam Payne


I mean they better make it happen or else we are just going to see more of the same next year. How many years are we going to go down the road of trying to make Garland/Sexton a thing before we pull the plug.

This roster/team needs a shakeup and staggering Garland/Sexton is the type of shakeup we need.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,416
And1: 24,350
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#40 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:42 am

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Getting a capable backup PG is essential this offseason. Not sure who is out there, maybe even bringing back Delly, but the Cavs investing in competent veteran backups to these young players will be essential. THE most important thing this offseason.

We should really try to match a veteran to every young player we have.

So...

PG) Garland ---> Patty Mills
SG) Okoro ---> Alec Burks
SF) Kuminga---> Taurean Prince
PF) Nance ---> Kevin Love
C) Allen ---> Robin Lopez

6th) Sexton

Those are just examples but thats the structure I would like to see from this team. I know Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas are young and there but I would love to see a heavier investment to capable veterans this offseason. Lamar Stevens and Broderic Thomas off the bench arnt winning the Cavs games or raising their ceiling--but guys like Mills and Lopez will and they will also push the young guys in front of them
I'd want a better player than Patty Mills as the backup PG. There are a number of eligible candidates and the Cavs have the full MLE. I think McConnell out of Indiana or Payne are guys they should try to steal. Neither are restricted nor have they seen a good contract in their careers.

I want nothing to do with Robin Lopez. I'm paying Hatenstein instead.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Well yeah Mills was just a name I was throwing out there. Somebody whose experienced, somebody who is consistent, ECT. Just give me somebody that knows what they are doing and is not a unproven project.

Also, Hartrnstein seems like a good project but he is not a guy I want to rely on next year, at all. Having him play in limited mins is fine but he isn't exactly who I picture when we are talking about reliable veteran.
I think Lopez sucks pretty reliably. But seriously, I felt like the second unit played better with Hartenstein than it did with McGee and McGee was playing with fewer G League dudes. I'm fine with him as the backup.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers