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Collin Sexton breaks down his own game

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#81 » by LivingLegend » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:46 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I like your thinking. I don't hate the kid or the player he is, I just hate how overinflated his impact seems to be among some fans and hopefully (not) the front office
Exactly. I didn't think he'd ever actually make a point to get his teammates involved in the offense, but once people started talking about it being Garland's team he made it a priority. If you tell him playing defense, rebounding, and the rest are also things he needs to do to get paid, the learning curve will get a lot less steep.

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he always has gone beyond whatever the coaches have asked of him,unless he could not do it physically.the problem with Sexton exists mostly in the minds of fans not the org or the players or him. get over it


It's never been physical, the problem with Sexton has always and forever been the fact that he has a Jordan Clarkson level bad BBIQ. Which has been well documented by the many veterans that have taken issue with his play since he was a rookie.

He has a ton of physical talent, he just has no idea how to actually play basketball in a winning fashion or make anybody on his team better.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#82 » by Stillwater » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:31 am

:D ha The only person besides usage jealous vets like George Hill or clueless fans who have ever insinuated Sexton had a low IQ was Smith when he was disgruntled the org was shifting focus towards rebuilding instead of competing. Sexton was a rookie then and Smith is currently out of the league. You are High.
All these ideas that Sexton has been a starter in the NBA for 3 seasons and has a low bbiq proves only one thing: It's You that doesn't know jack shat about basketball outside of you local youth Club
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#83 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:56 am

Stillwater wrote::D ha The only person besides usage jealous vets like George Hill or clueless fans who have ever insinuated Sexton had a low IQ was Smith when he was disgruntled the org was shifting focus towards rebuilding instead of competing. Sexton was a rookie then and Smith is currently out of the league. You are High.
All these ideas that Sexton has been a starter in the NBA for 3 seasons and has a low bbiq proves only one thing: It's You that doesn't know jack shat about basketball outside of you local youth Club
If you can't post without making it personal with a specific poster, then don't post.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#84 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:29 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I like your thinking. I don't hate the kid or the player he is, I just hate how overinflated his impact seems to be among some fans and hopefully (not) the front office
Exactly. I didn't think he'd ever actually make a point to get his teammates involved in the offense, but once people started talking about it being Garland's team he made it a priority. If you tell him playing defense, rebounding, and the rest are also things he needs to do to get paid, the learning curve will get a lot less steep.

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he always has gone beyond whatever the coaches have asked of him,unless he could not do it physically.the problem with Sexton exists mostly in the minds of fans not the org or the players or him. get over it
If I thought this was in anyway true, I'd clear out the offices of every coach in the building myself. Player development is suppose to be about establishing good habits, not bad ones.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#85 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:16 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Sexton has played the most minutes, most games, and had the most FGAs three years running. There really isn't a close second. Hes been the constant.

You say he hasn't been surrounded by talented players. I agree. So you'd expect his +/- numbers to be through the roof, but that's not how it's worked out.

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Booker had a negative +/- in two of the first three years of his career, too.
Even if you give guys on bad teams whatever the average starter on their team is when it comes to +/- due to the other team's starters being better, etc., the delta here is bigger than that. You're taking about three years in a row, across many different combinations of starters and backups. Sexton was the worse starter on the court last season in terms of on/off. Even Okoro did better in his rookie year.



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Collin had a positive net +/- until Garland got hurt.

Not too hard to figure out why it plummeted.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#86 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:12 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Booker had a negative +/- in two of the first three years of his career, too.
Even if you give guys on bad teams whatever the average starter on their team is when it comes to +/- due to the other team's starters being better, etc., the delta here is bigger than that. You're taking about three years in a row, across many different combinations of starters and backups. Sexton was the worse starter on the court last season in terms of on/off. Even Okoro did better in his rookie year.



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Collin had a positive net +/- until Garland got hurt.

Not too hard to figure out why it plummeted.
I sincerely doubt Sexton was net positive +/- for more than three quarters of the season and ended up where he was based on such a small sample size. I'm afraid I'm going to have to know which source you're getting that from.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#87 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:57 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Even if you give guys on bad teams whatever the average starter on their team is when it comes to +/- due to the other team's starters being better, etc., the delta here is bigger than that. You're taking about three years in a row, across many different combinations of starters and backups. Sexton was the worse starter on the court last season in terms of on/off. Even Okoro did better in his rookie year.



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Collin had a positive net +/- until Garland got hurt.

Not too hard to figure out why it plummeted.
I sincerely doubt Sexton was net positive +/- for more than three quarters of the season and ended up where he was based on such a small sample size. I'm afraid I'm going to have to know which source you're getting that from.

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We've talked about it during the season ... go check waybackmachine if you need proof.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#88 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:07 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Collin had a positive net +/- until Garland got hurt.

Not too hard to figure out why it plummeted.
I sincerely doubt Sexton was net positive +/- for more than three quarters of the season and ended up where he was based on such a small sample size. I'm afraid I'm going to have to know which source you're getting that from.

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We've talked about it during the season ... go check waybackmachine if you need proof.
I remember you saying they didn't track it in real time and you said you have to shift through the daily splits and figure it out.

Edit: No way he was still positive after February. Here are his monthly splits. Neither his pre, nor post all star +/- are net positive. This isn't Garland going down.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629012/traditional/

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#89 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I sincerely doubt Sexton was net positive +/- for more than three quarters of the season and ended up where he was based on such a small sample size. I'm afraid I'm going to have to know which source you're getting that from.

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We've talked about it during the season ... go check waybackmachine if you need proof.
I remember you saying they didn't track it in real time and you said you have to shift through the daily splits and figure it out.

Edit: No way he was still positive after February. Here are his monthly splits. Neither his pre, nor post all star +/- are net positive. This isn't Garland going down.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629012/traditional/


I'm only referring to net plus-minus which is on-court minus off-court.

The on-court numbers are negative across the board (except Exum), but Collin's net even now is still -0.1, while Garland's which had been negative is up to +4.1. by simply sitting.

Collin's net +/- has increased each season of his career.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#90 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:57 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
We've talked about it during the season ... go check waybackmachine if you need proof.
I remember you saying they didn't track it in real time and you said you have to shift through the daily splits and figure it out.

Edit: No way he was still positive after February. Here are his monthly splits. Neither his pre, nor post all star +/- are net positive. This isn't Garland going down.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629012/traditional/


I'm only referring to net plus-minus which is on-court minus off-court.

The on-court numbers are negative across the board (except Exum), but Collin's net even now is still -0.1, while Garland's which had been negative is up to +4.1. by simply sitting.

Collin's net +/- has increased each season of his career.
The other way of looking at this is Garland's growth masked some of Sexton's shortcomings.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#91 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:17 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I remember you saying they didn't track it in real time and you said you have to shift through the daily splits and figure it out.

Edit: No way he was still positive after February. Here are his monthly splits. Neither his pre, nor post all star +/- are net positive. This isn't Garland going down.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629012/traditional/


I'm only referring to net plus-minus which is on-court minus off-court.

The on-court numbers are negative across the board (except Exum), but Collin's net even now is still -0.1, while Garland's which had been negative is up to +4.1. by simply sitting.

Collin's net +/- has increased each season of his career.
The other way of looking at this is Garland's growth masked some of Sexton's shortcomings.


You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#92 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:41 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I'm only referring to net plus-minus which is on-court minus off-court.

The on-court numbers are negative across the board (except Exum), but Collin's net even now is still -0.1, while Garland's which had been negative is up to +4.1. by simply sitting.

Collin's net +/- has increased each season of his career.
The other way of looking at this is Garland's growth masked some of Sexton's shortcomings.


You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#93 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:12 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:The other way of looking at this is Garland's growth masked some of Sexton's shortcomings.


You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.


Because Collin doesn't know how to run a team. When you ask Cedi to pick up that slack, you've got a problem. It's been better with Delly, but sadly Delly shouldn't even be in the league anymore let alone starting.

On the flip side, when Darius is the only player on the floor who can do something with the ball in his hands, the defense is able to focus in on him and the offense tends to stagnate.

If we fill out the roster with actual NBA players this Summer it would go a long ways towards getting us useful data that could be used to evaluate these players, but even so ... most PG's take time to figure things out.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#94 » by toooskies » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:13 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:The other way of looking at this is Garland's growth masked some of Sexton's shortcomings.


You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

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The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#95 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:37 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

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The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.

Until DG was out of his way and he had the ball in his hands. The Cavs will be using Okoro in a more on ball dominant role this season with Sexton playing off him and DG will take more of a second unit role. Nobody on here for the most part wants to accept it, because he can dribble like Kyrie and finish like Delly but Darius Garland is not a NBA starter on a good team,
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#96 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:42 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

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The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.


Yep, I've made the point before that the other young players who are starting to have success are playing for teams that stopped/don't insert 19 year olds in to their starting lineup.
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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#97 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:48 pm

Stillwater wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.

Until DG was out of his way and he had the ball in his hands. The Cavs will be using Okoro in a more on ball dominant role this season with Sexton playing off him and DG will take more of a second unit role. Nobody on here for the most part wants to accept it, because he can dribble like Kyrie and finish like Delly but Darius Garland is not a NBA starter on a good team,


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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#98 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:30 am

Stillwater wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.

Until DG was out of his way and he had the ball in his hands. The Cavs will be using Okoro in a more on ball dominant role this season with Sexton playing off him and DG will take more of a second unit role. Nobody on here for the most part wants to accept it, because he can dribble like Kyrie and finish like Delly but Darius Garland is not a NBA starter on a good team,
The team was getting blown out by bad teams when Garland went down and Sexton was lead guard. That's reality and that's what's showing up in the data.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#99 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:37 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
You could also conclude that Sexton's growth has masked some of Garland's shortcomings. The key would be to look at the lineup data and make a case, but there's not enough minutes.

The data simply can't drive us to the sort of conclusions we'd like to make due to a lack of minutes and a lack of talent.

Know what our 2 best lineups were this season?

Dotson-Okoro-Osman-NanceJr.-Drummond

and

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love

But do we really want to draw conclusions from 76 and 60 minutes of court-time?
I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.
Okay, but that was true when Garland was playing without Sexton as well and the margins for the losses actually shrunk. I agree with John that the Cavs need more NBA talent at the backup guard positions, both of them, so the Cavs can run different lineups.

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Re: Collin Sexton breaks down his own game 

Post#100 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:36 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available data. If you want to say that there isn't enough data fine, but this is where Sexton proponents want to have it both ways. He's almost always on the court with the starters, but when he's not, you're not seeing a net loss in terms of margins. If anything, the data suggests that the games are actually closer when he's out and Garland still starts.

Now there can be a number of reasons for this over a small sample size, but if that's happening when your leading scorer is off the court, it's worth asking why, and perhaps even forcing the issue of a larger sample size.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The problem is that Okoro was always on the court with the starters too, and he was one of the worst offensive players in basketball this year.
Okay, but that was true when Garland was playing without Sexton as well and the margins for the losses actually shrunk. I agree with John that the Cavs need more NBA talent at the backup guard positions, both of them, so the Cavs can run different lineups.


The bottom line is that all of our draft picks need to improve if we're going to ever win games. The tricky part is deciding when we've seen enough and it's time to move on rather than pay. Some of you are already at that point for various reasons, but I'm optimistic because all 3 are still showing signs of improvement.

I'd also just like to see where these young players can go (as Cavs), but rebuilding via 19 year olds is tricky. If we were following "The Process", we'd be looking to raise the value of these players as high as we can so we can trade them for future picks until we draft a couple of star caliber can't miss prospects. And just keep the losing rolling until we get lucky in the lottery + draft.

I don't think our process is that narrow, but we can look back at the players that Philly has drafted and see in many cases it was warranted; but some of the players they gave up on or let go have been proven to be pretty decent pros. Jerami Grant and Christian Wood (who was considered a bad influence on Okafor) may even be approaching All-Star level; but otoh, who knows if Markelle Fultz will ever get his jumper back and Jahlil Okafor and Nerlens Noel may never be more than journeymen.

So, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to stick with a player or move on - time will tell. I'm just hoping the Cavs have some solid talent evaluators somewhere in the organization and they're listening to them.

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