ImageImageImage

3 Weeks til the Lottery.

Moderator: jbk1234

Harper4Ferry?
Starter
Posts: 2,035
And1: 45
Joined: Jun 29, 2002

3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#1 » by Harper4Ferry? » Tue Jun 1, 2021 5:48 pm

The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,593
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#2 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 1, 2021 6:24 pm

could sure use some luck in top 3 at least or the org is going to have to shake things up probably and then who knows what players agents push for trades or whatever. I think a lot more is riding on this selection than it should really but thats the pita with rebuilds where you need to be lucky when your bad. I think the NBA has failed to address the problem with bad teams trying to rebuild getting left holding the bag in the name of preventing tanking which used to be the only way to get out of the gutter.
At least they got some reclamation upside steals in Hartenstein and Kabengele but will they retain them needs to be a priority,
Even Stevens turned out to be one of the best UDFA is the class
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,262
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#3 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 8:38 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.


Smart teams can build a contender with far worse lottery picks than we've had, and if we're not smart enough, we're pretty much doomed unless we somehow stumble on the next LeBron.

But that doesn't mean we can't still enjoy watching our young players develop and improve ... otherwise save your time and money and chill out on the Cavs until they're doing something fun to watch.

Rebuilding is slow and risky.

For instance, the Spurs even with all the great scouting they've done over the years have fallen off quite a bit these past two seasons and former players like Forbes, Bertans, and Anderson are busy helping other teams with their playoff run. The Warriors who nailed Steph, Klay, and Draymond with later picks in the draft haven't looked much like the geniuses they claim to be lately.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,262
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#4 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 8:47 pm

Stillwater wrote:could sure use some luck in top 3 at least or the org is going to have to shake things up probably and then who knows what players agents push for trades or whatever. I think a lot more is riding on this selection than it should really but thats the pita with rebuilds where you need to be lucky when your bad. I think the NBA has failed to address the problem with bad teams trying to rebuild getting left holding the bag in the name of preventing tanking which used to be the only way to get out of the gutter.
At least they got some reclamation upside steals in Hartenstein and Kabengele but will they retain them needs to be a priority,
Even Stevens turned out to be one of the best UDFA is the class


Tanking has never been the only way to get out of the gutter ... but badly run organizations tend to stay bad because they can't figure out how that works.
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 727
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#5 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 1, 2021 8:55 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.


Smart teams can build a contender with far worse lottery picks than we've had, and if we're not smart enough, we're pretty much doomed unless we somehow stumble on the next LeBron.

But that doesn't mean we can't still enjoy watching our young players develop and improve ... otherwise save your time and money and chill out on the Cavs until they're doing something fun to watch.

Rebuilding is slow and risky.

For instance, the Spurs even with all the great scouting they've done over the years have fallen off quite a bit these past two seasons and former players like Forbes, Bertans, and Anderson are busy helping other teams with their playoff run. The Warriors who nailed Steph, Klay, and Draymond with later picks in the draft haven't looked much like the geniuses they claim to be lately.


I mean even Steph took till his what 4th/5th season to really take off and show that the Warriors faith in him was warranted, which was a huge risk considering he had that major ankle injury that they had to worry about committing to as well.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,262
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#6 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 9:20 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.


Smart teams can build a contender with far worse lottery picks than we've had, and if we're not smart enough, we're pretty much doomed unless we somehow stumble on the next LeBron.

But that doesn't mean we can't still enjoy watching our young players develop and improve ... otherwise save your time and money and chill out on the Cavs until they're doing something fun to watch.

Rebuilding is slow and risky.

For instance, the Spurs even with all the great scouting they've done over the years have fallen off quite a bit these past two seasons and former players like Forbes, Bertans, and Anderson are busy helping other teams with their playoff run. The Warriors who nailed Steph, Klay, and Draymond with later picks in the draft haven't looked much like the geniuses they claim to be lately.


I mean even Steph took till his what 4th/5th season to really take off and show that the Warriors faith in him was warranted, which was a huge risk considering he had that major ankle injury that they had to worry about committing to as well.


Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,593
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#7 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 1, 2021 10:00 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:could sure use some luck in top 3 at least or the org is going to have to shake things up probably and then who knows what players agents push for trades or whatever. I think a lot more is riding on this selection than it should really but thats the pita with rebuilds where you need to be lucky when your bad. I think the NBA has failed to address the problem with bad teams trying to rebuild getting left holding the bag in the name of preventing tanking which used to be the only way to get out of the gutter.
At least they got some reclamation upside steals in Hartenstein and Kabengele but will they retain them needs to be a priority,
Even Stevens turned out to be one of the best UDFA is the class


Tanking has never been the only way to get out of the gutter ... but badly run organizations tend to stay bad because they can't figure out how that works.

Being **** is not the same as tanking and sure tanking
it is not the only way to get out of the gutter but it was the norm hence what we have now...teams that are trying to rebuild with picks in the range that better teams normally would be picking in [unless they tanked] and when you have no star players to draw other good players in FA esp in a small market all you got is adding developmental prospects and hoping they develop like Sexton has. I mean if Okoro becomes an offensive player next season and DG starts taking and making some shots maybe we can say they are on their way to being developed well.
Right now DG did a fairly good job of proving he can throw lobs and set up teammates but he is not scoring enough yet, maybe it will come maybe it never will. Does Sexton take another step or does he fall off?
Either way the draft is the biggest factor in this off seasons roll back or shake up for a reason
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 727
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#8 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 1, 2021 11:04 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Smart teams can build a contender with far worse lottery picks than we've had, and if we're not smart enough, we're pretty much doomed unless we somehow stumble on the next LeBron.

But that doesn't mean we can't still enjoy watching our young players develop and improve ... otherwise save your time and money and chill out on the Cavs until they're doing something fun to watch.

Rebuilding is slow and risky.

For instance, the Spurs even with all the great scouting they've done over the years have fallen off quite a bit these past two seasons and former players like Forbes, Bertans, and Anderson are busy helping other teams with their playoff run. The Warriors who nailed Steph, Klay, and Draymond with later picks in the draft haven't looked much like the geniuses they claim to be lately.


I mean even Steph took till his what 4th/5th season to really take off and show that the Warriors faith in him was warranted, which was a huge risk considering he had that major ankle injury that they had to worry about committing to as well.


Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?


No after 3 years in the NBA. He was a solid PG averaging 18 ppg, 5-6 apg, and only shooting 4 3pa/g. Sure he shot it at over 40%, but he didn't look special yet, and in his 3rd year he had that bad ankle injury. His 4th year started to look more like the Steph we all come to expect now with over 7 3pa/g and over 40% still then finally in his 5th season in the NBA did it really take off even further.

I mean even the Bogut trade happened in Steph's 4th year. They got Klay in his 3rd season, and Draymond in his 5th season. Considering the players already on the roster if you were to consider the Warriors rebuild to have started with Steph getting there, it wasn't until their 4th season of the rebuild that the Warriors even made the playoffs.

I think the current young core of the roster has the makings to be a very strong team next season, especially if they are able to land a high pick in the lottery. If they don't it could still work out but it'll be tougher as they'll probably still have a hole on the roster.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,262
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#9 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 11:13 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:could sure use some luck in top 3 at least or the org is going to have to shake things up probably and then who knows what players agents push for trades or whatever. I think a lot more is riding on this selection than it should really but thats the pita with rebuilds where you need to be lucky when your bad. I think the NBA has failed to address the problem with bad teams trying to rebuild getting left holding the bag in the name of preventing tanking which used to be the only way to get out of the gutter.
At least they got some reclamation upside steals in Hartenstein and Kabengele but will they retain them needs to be a priority,
Even Stevens turned out to be one of the best UDFA is the class


Tanking has never been the only way to get out of the gutter ... but badly run organizations tend to stay bad because they can't figure out how that works.

Being **** is not the same as tanking and sure tanking
it is not the only way to get out of the gutter but it was the norm hence what we have now...teams that are trying to rebuild with picks in the range that better teams normally would be picking in [unless they tanked] and when you have no star players to draw other good players in FA esp in a small market all you got is adding developmental prospects and hoping they develop like Sexton has. I mean if Okoro becomes an offensive player next season and DG starts taking and making some shots maybe we can say they are on their way to being developed well.
Right now DG did a fairly good job of proving he can throw lobs and set up teammates but he is not scoring enough yet, maybe it will come maybe it never will. Does Sexton take another step or does he fall off?
Either way the draft is the biggest factor in this off seasons roll back or shake up for a reason


Nobody says you even have to build through the draft. In some cases the best move would be to trade those picks before they start going down in value.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,262
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#10 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 1, 2021 11:22 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I mean even Steph took till his what 4th/5th season to really take off and show that the Warriors faith in him was warranted, which was a huge risk considering he had that major ankle injury that they had to worry about committing to as well.


Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?


No after 3 years in the NBA. He was a solid PG averaging 18 ppg, 5-6 apg, and only shooting 4 3pa/g. Sure he shot it at over 40%, but he didn't look special yet, and in his 3rd year he had that bad ankle injury. His 4th year started to look more like the Steph we all come to expect now with over 7 3pa/g and over 40% still then finally in his 5th season in the NBA did it really take off even further.

I mean even the Bogut trade happened in Steph's 4th year. They got Klay in his 3rd season, and Draymond in his 5th season. Considering the players already on the roster if you were to consider the Warriors rebuild to have started with Steph getting there, it wasn't until their 4th season of the rebuild that the Warriors even made the playoffs.

I think the current young core of the roster has the makings to be a very strong team next season, especially if they are able to land a high pick in the lottery. If they don't it could still work out but it'll be tougher as they'll probably still have a hole on the roster.


I think the biggest problem for the Cavs is that they don't yet look like a team and they're not making progress as a team. If we could see a plan in place and the gears turning in the right direction with pieces that fit and the wins increasing each year ... we'd all feel a lot better with where the rebuild is heading.

The answer may be either (a) patience or (b) trading parts that don't fit for parts that do. Given injuries and our youth, I tend towards (a) but (b) is not necessarily wrong. I suppose technically (c) is an option too, and that would be bringing in a coach who's biggest accomplishment wasn't contributing to "grit & grind". And if we can't find our way through that maze, there's little choice but to go with (d) which is to bring in someone else to run the team.
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 727
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#11 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jun 1, 2021 11:52 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?


No after 3 years in the NBA. He was a solid PG averaging 18 ppg, 5-6 apg, and only shooting 4 3pa/g. Sure he shot it at over 40%, but he didn't look special yet, and in his 3rd year he had that bad ankle injury. His 4th year started to look more like the Steph we all come to expect now with over 7 3pa/g and over 40% still then finally in his 5th season in the NBA did it really take off even further.

I mean even the Bogut trade happened in Steph's 4th year. They got Klay in his 3rd season, and Draymond in his 5th season. Considering the players already on the roster if you were to consider the Warriors rebuild to have started with Steph getting there, it wasn't until their 4th season of the rebuild that the Warriors even made the playoffs.

I think the current young core of the roster has the makings to be a very strong team next season, especially if they are able to land a high pick in the lottery. If they don't it could still work out but it'll be tougher as they'll probably still have a hole on the roster.


I think the biggest problem for the Cavs is that they don't yet look like a team and they're not making progress as a team. If we could see a plan in place and the gears turning in the right direction with pieces that fit and the wins increasing each year ... we'd all feel a lot better with where the rebuild is heading.

The answer may be either (a) patience or (b) trading parts that don't fit for parts that do. Given injuries and our youth, I tend towards (a) but (b) is not necessarily wrong. I suppose technically (c) is an option too, and that would be bringing in a coach who's biggest accomplishment wasn't contributing to "grit & grind". And if we can't find our way through that maze, there's little choice but to go with (d) which is to bring in someone else to run the team.


I think if after this season it's still not working I think a combination of B-D, but it also comes down to the value of return on B if it even makes sense. I think a big part of the issue and why A is necessary to go into next off-season is because C/D is just a bad fit with the pieces. Yes we want to have some defense, but we have multiple players that can play fast and in a more uptempo scheme might even see them shoot more 3s because of it.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,410
And1: 24,346
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#12 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 12:22 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.
You can still get value picking later on the lottery but you're probably not getting a franchise player.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,410
And1: 24,346
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#13 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 12:31 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Smart teams can build a contender with far worse lottery picks than we've had, and if we're not smart enough, we're pretty much doomed unless we somehow stumble on the next LeBron.

But that doesn't mean we can't still enjoy watching our young players develop and improve ... otherwise save your time and money and chill out on the Cavs until they're doing something fun to watch.

Rebuilding is slow and risky.

For instance, the Spurs even with all the great scouting they've done over the years have fallen off quite a bit these past two seasons and former players like Forbes, Bertans, and Anderson are busy helping other teams with their playoff run. The Warriors who nailed Steph, Klay, and Draymond with later picks in the draft haven't looked much like the geniuses they claim to be lately.


I mean even Steph took till his what 4th/5th season to really take off and show that the Warriors faith in him was warranted, which was a huge risk considering he had that major ankle injury that they had to worry about committing to as well.


Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?
I'm not judging the entire rebuild three years into it. But I do think that projections regarding future play can't be based solely upon the most optimistic possibilities. We managed to win 33 games, after whiffing on Bennett, in year 4 of the rebuild last time. We averaged 20 wins a season for three years running and I think some changes are needed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,593
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#14 » by Stillwater » Wed Jun 2, 2021 1:11 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I mean even Steph took till his what 4th/5th season to really take off and show that the Warriors faith in him was warranted, which was a huge risk considering he had that major ankle injury that they had to worry about committing to as well.


Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?
I'm not judging the entire rebuild three years into it. But I do think that projections regarding future play can't be based solely upon the most optimistic possibilities. We managed to win 33 games, after whiffing on Bennett, in year 4 of the rebuild last time. We averaged 20 wins a season for three years running and I think some changes are needed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

one word comes to mind in that first rebuild and look at him now...Kyrie and the Cavs don't get him without insane luck.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
Revenged25
Starter
Posts: 2,183
And1: 727
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#15 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 1:19 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Yep, after 3 years at Davidson and surviving a near fan revolt when the team traded Monta Ellis for Bogut.

So, yeah, jbk1234 and Jason Lloyd are hardly alone in wanting to judge the rebuild just 3 years in to it, but on the flip side Altman's optimism regarding his young core is warranted. They are all making solid strides for their experience and age, even if they may still be years a way from truly breaking out.

Maybe if Tom Thibbadeau was our coach and not Ty Lue and we never signed Kevin Love and found someone who wouldn't get hurt when asked to play hard ... maybe just maybe we'd have been sitting in the 4th seed like the Knicks with Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, David Nwaba, Tristan Thompson, and a cast of former Bulls players ... but we've won our championship. We went to the finals 4 years straight. Would anybody truly prefer that panacea over a rip it to the studs rebuild?
I'm not judging the entire rebuild three years into it. But I do think that projections regarding future play can't be based solely upon the most optimistic possibilities. We managed to win 33 games, after whiffing on Bennett, in year 4 of the rebuild last time. We averaged 20 wins a season for three years running and I think some changes are needed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

one word comes to mind in that first rebuild and look at him now...Kyrie and the Cavs don't get him without insane luck.


Actually they had 2 top 4 picks that year and the 4th pick the following year. Not to mention the vets that were expected to contribute were actually healthy and played decently.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,410
And1: 24,346
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 1:32 am

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm not judging the entire rebuild three years into it. But I do think that projections regarding future play can't be based solely upon the most optimistic possibilities. We managed to win 33 games, after whiffing on Bennett, in year 4 of the rebuild last time. We averaged 20 wins a season for three years running and I think some changes are needed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

one word comes to mind in that first rebuild and look at him now...Kyrie and the Cavs don't get him without insane luck.


Actually they had 2 top 4 picks that year and the 4th pick the following year. Not to mention the vets that were expected to contribute were actually healthy and played decently.
I mean we picked Kyrie, TT, Waiters, Zeller, Karasav, and Bennett. Jarrett Jack and CJ Miles were our *good* vets. Bynum played 15 games before getting banned from the facilities. Alonzo Gee and Earl Clark were our scrub vets. You don't have to have a lot of talent to win 33 games. We traded for Deng and Hawes two-thirds through the season and it still didn't save Grant's job. Only two or three guys from that roster are still in the NBA and most of them washed out within a couple years. That's why I think it's worth putting our win total into the equation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
toooskies
Sophomore
Posts: 113
And1: 48
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#17 » by toooskies » Wed Jun 2, 2021 3:08 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.
You can still get value picking later on the lottery but you're probably not getting a franchise player.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Looking at the all-star game, the number of players drafted top 5 and still on their original team was pretty small. You had, like, Tatum and Brown and maybe one or two other guys. More guys like Booker and Jokic and Mitchell who developed from lyre picks. Then the older guys empowering their way into whatever situation they like.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 42,410
And1: 24,346
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#18 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 3:20 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:The 2021 NBA Draft Lottery will take place on Tuesday, June 22 at 8:30 p.m.

I swear if we fall all the way to 8th or something, I'm following Hockey from now on.
You can still get value picking later on the lottery but you're probably not getting a franchise player.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Looking at the all-star game, the number of players drafted top 5 and still on their original team was pretty small. You had, like, Tatum and Brown and maybe one or two other guys. More guys like Booker and Jokic and Mitchell who developed from lyre picks. Then the older guys empowering their way into whatever situation they like.
SGA and Mikal Bridges went later more recently.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 7,563
And1: 2,262
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#19 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 2, 2021 3:25 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:one word comes to mind in that first rebuild and look at him now...Kyrie and the Cavs don't get him without insane luck.


Actually they had 2 top 4 picks that year and the 4th pick the following year. Not to mention the vets that were expected to contribute were actually healthy and played decently.
I mean we picked Kyrie, TT, Waiters, Zeller, Karasav, and Bennett. Jarrett Jack and CJ Miles were our *good* vets. Bynum played 15 games before getting banned from the facilities. Alonzo Gee and Earl Clark were our scrub vets. You don't have to have a lot of talent to win 33 games. We traded for Deng and Hawes two-thirds through the season and it still didn't save Grant's job. Only two or three guys from that roster are still in the NBA and most of them washed out within a couple years. That's why I think it's worth putting our win total into the equation.


Kyrie wasn't even taken with our own pick. We could have gotten him regardless of our record.

Our lottery luck through that rebuild was not quite as astronomical as it might seem, but it was certainly very high even before the change in the odds.

Other than Bennett, though, our other high picks were all NBA players and if we'd taken Oladipo like some in the organization preferred we would had another.

Do we win anything with a core of Irving, Waiters, Thompson, Zeller, Wiggins, and Oladipo?

I think they'd have some upside and would be in the playoff mix, but minimally Waiters would need to be traded (again). There's just no path to turn that team in to a championship contender without fooling some other team in to overpaying or lucking in to finding a franchise player. Which is what we did, not via the draft; but because LeBron wanted to come home, and we were able to swap Wiggins for Love before we had a chance to wreck his value.

It's necessary for the organization to project a player's future in terms of talent, skill, fit, etc, and as fans we can play along as well; but we're still talking about young men just out of their teens and we need to be very careful keeping our expectations locked to their level of experience.

Personally, I find it pretty easy to want to stick with a player when we see signs of improvement, paths for improvement, and circumstances that are likely holding them back.

The Cavs botch a lot of stuff, but at least they learned one thing coming out of the last rebuild ... something the smart teams know very well ... and that's that talent and pre-NBA accomplishments do not matter that much unless there's also the right attitude, work-ethic, feel for the game, and character to go along with it.

Alas, one thing the Cavs never seem to get right is figuring out how to play to a young player's strengths and hide his weaknesses. This makes it very hard to trade players for equal or better value to adjust our fit. It just blows my mind that Michael Porter Jr is seemingly valued so much higher than Collin Sexton. If we'd drafted Porter Jr and Denver had drafted Sexton, I seriously doubt that's the case (especially with Jamal Murray out right now).
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,105
And1: 3,593
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: 3 Weeks til the Lottery. 

Post#20 » by Stillwater » Wed Jun 2, 2021 4:34 pm

I am not defending the past because it was a bust scenario and I have no idea where it came from nor can I find the source now so it was probably untrue, and probably not even worth getting into , but Bennett even if he was picked 20th lacked the motivation to work through the hate associated with him in his rookie season struggles after being thrown in the fire coming off injury and surgery out of shape and lost his shot developed sleep apnea had asthma the list of excuses was endless etc... He never should have been drafted in the top of the draft but in a terribly weak draft where nobody would give up value to go get the Dipos or OPJs of the class the Cavs just took the guy they wanted the most for fit and Bennet was widely considered a top 10 pick with no clear separation on paper between him and others available. It was not only a bad luck pick for them it was by far one of the most unimpressive draft classes outside sleepers like Giannis and Gobert that we have ever seen.
lesson: never pick for need unless there is no clear better player available and make sure you get all the medicals not the cliff notes version before you draft anyone.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers