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2021 off season thread

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JonFromVA
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#681 » by JonFromVA » Tue Sep 7, 2021 5:39 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:G'day fellas, Suns fan here. I come in peace

I was wondering what the consensus on the Love situation is here. Seems like the Cavs have been trying to trade him since he signed that extension a few years back. Love is still on the Cavs roster and books and it seemed like the situation was going to reach a buyout sooner rather than later but reports a week or so back seems to indicate there haven't been talks.

Do you guys see a buyout realistically happening before the playoffs this year? Or will you likely keep holding on for a trade?


My opinion is that he nurses injuries longer than anybody in NBA history and has zero desire to hold up his end of the bargain with his contract while being a leech on the Cavs salary cap.

Realistically, he is going to play this entire season as a Cav- he likes it or not. Nobody wants him and he doesnt want a buyout at this number because as a Athletic reporter said 'Kevin loves his money'. So we are stuck with him and he is stuck with us for 1 more season before a realistic buyout happens next offseason.


I get the impression the Cavs approve of Kevin nursing his injuries, but it's a fact his injuries (back, calf, Achilles, etc) are problematic/lingering type injuries that can easily be re-aggravated. If he was actually playing for something, maybe he'd take the pain killers and play.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#682 » by KuruptedCav » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:51 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Trying to talk myself into a realistic Simmons trade, where Simmons ends up in Cleveland, that I like, and I just can't get there.
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Don’t do it. Simmons is not worth the level of effort or assets that would need to be attached to acquire him.

The guy is all flash, gets the steals we ignore the high foul rate. Amazing passes, we ignore the turnover rate.

Consider he plays with Embiid, Harris, Seth Curry, etc. and somehow his assist rate has dropped every year.

His best role is as a Draymond Green player, but he won’t accept that he’s a third or fourth option and is paid like an Alpha.

I hear this crap about moving him into the post where his height and lane disruptiveness is negated, and the size he gives up isn’t made up for by ability to stretch.

Until he learns to shoot, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. If I had any confidence in the Cavs developing any shooter, maybe I’d be diff. But, I don’t.


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I think the idea that teams *develop* shooters is a bit silly tbh. It's a skill that can be developed some, but most of it's innate. No one works harder than Jimmy Butler, and while he's improved some since his rookie season, he's still a meh shooter who you'll live with shooting in the postseason as the opponent.

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I don’t necessarily disagree. You can’t turn bad into world-beater and you can’t teach someone who doesn’t have a shooter mindset to get one, but you can turn bad shooting into respectable shooting, respectable into good, good into great.

Jimmy came in with no shot, he was like a 25% shooter from mid-range. He’s worked himself to respectable and requiring defenders to actually guard him.

With Simmons, I feel we still judge his value on the potential he had coming into the league rather than the potential he has having been there 5 years with no growth in his game.

He had the potential to be Magic Johnson or Kawhi Leonard, he doesn’t anymore…


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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#683 » by JonFromVA » Tue Sep 7, 2021 7:18 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:Don’t do it. Simmons is not worth the level of effort or assets that would need to be attached to acquire him.

The guy is all flash, gets the steals we ignore the high foul rate. Amazing passes, we ignore the turnover rate.

Consider he plays with Embiid, Harris, Seth Curry, etc. and somehow his assist rate has dropped every year.

His best role is as a Draymond Green player, but he won’t accept that he’s a third or fourth option and is paid like an Alpha.

I hear this crap about moving him into the post where his height and lane disruptiveness is negated, and the size he gives up isn’t made up for by ability to stretch.

Until he learns to shoot, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. If I had any confidence in the Cavs developing any shooter, maybe I’d be diff. But, I don’t.


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I think the idea that teams *develop* shooters is a bit silly tbh. It's a skill that can be developed some, but most of it's innate. No one works harder than Jimmy Butler, and while he's improved some since his rookie season, he's still a meh shooter who you'll live with shooting in the postseason as the opponent.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I don’t necessarily disagree. You can’t turn bad into world-beater and you can’t teach someone who doesn’t have a shooter mindset to get one, but you can turn bad shooting into respectable shooting, respectable into good, good into great.

Jimmy came in with no shot, he was like a 25% shooter from mid-range. He’s worked himself to respectable and requiring defenders to actually guard him.

With Simmons, I feel we still judge his value on the potential he had coming into the league rather than the potential he has having been there 5 years with no growth in his game.

He had the potential to be Magic Johnson or Kawhi Leonard, he doesn’t anymore…


I thought Simmons was being judged by his playoff flop as a useless player, hence why Philly wants him gone?

In reality, of course he's not Magic or Kawhi but I think he's demonstrated he can help a team win even without Embiid, but the construction is tricky.

In one way he's similar to Magic is that whatever team he's on should be playing a fast-break style because he causes a lot of problems in the half-court.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#684 » by LivingLegend » Tue Sep 7, 2021 8:14 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I think the idea that teams *develop* shooters is a bit silly tbh. It's a skill that can be developed some, but most of it's innate. No one works harder than Jimmy Butler, and while he's improved some since his rookie season, he's still a meh shooter who you'll live with shooting in the postseason as the opponent.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I don’t necessarily disagree. You can’t turn bad into world-beater and you can’t teach someone who doesn’t have a shooter mindset to get one, but you can turn bad shooting into respectable shooting, respectable into good, good into great.

Jimmy came in with no shot, he was like a 25% shooter from mid-range. He’s worked himself to respectable and requiring defenders to actually guard him.

With Simmons, I feel we still judge his value on the potential he had coming into the league rather than the potential he has having been there 5 years with no growth in his game.

He had the potential to be Magic Johnson or Kawhi Leonard, he doesn’t anymore…


I thought Simmons was being judged by his playoff flop as a useless player, hence why Philly wants him gone?

In reality, of course he's not Magic or Kawhi but I think he's demonstrated he can help a team win even without Embiid, but the construction is tricky.

In one way he's similar to Magic is that whatever team he's on should be playing a fast-break style because he causes a lot of problems in the half-court.


There is now way you can add Simmons to a team that already starts Okoro/Mobley/Allen. The Cavs would go from dead last in 3pt attempts and percentage to historically low even by 1980s standards. If thats the case then Garland better be shooting 15 threes per game.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#685 » by JonFromVA » Tue Sep 7, 2021 8:42 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I don’t necessarily disagree. You can’t turn bad into world-beater and you can’t teach someone who doesn’t have a shooter mindset to get one, but you can turn bad shooting into respectable shooting, respectable into good, good into great.

Jimmy came in with no shot, he was like a 25% shooter from mid-range. He’s worked himself to respectable and requiring defenders to actually guard him.

With Simmons, I feel we still judge his value on the potential he had coming into the league rather than the potential he has having been there 5 years with no growth in his game.

He had the potential to be Magic Johnson or Kawhi Leonard, he doesn’t anymore…


I thought Simmons was being judged by his playoff flop as a useless player, hence why Philly wants him gone?

In reality, of course he's not Magic or Kawhi but I think he's demonstrated he can help a team win even without Embiid, but the construction is tricky.

In one way he's similar to Magic is that whatever team he's on should be playing a fast-break style because he causes a lot of problems in the half-court.


There is now way you can add Simmons to a team that already starts Okoro/Mobley/Allen. The Cavs would go from dead last in 3pt attempts and percentage to historically low even by 1980s standards. If thats the case then Garland better be shooting 15 threes per game.


It's a problem even if some of them learn how to shoot and/or Windler/Osman/etc get their act together, we could ...

1) Embrace it - win with defense and rebounding;

2) Start trading away young players for veteran shooters (transition immediately to a win now mindset);

3) Fire JBB and bring in a coach with an offensive scheme that doesn't rely on simple P&R actions that can be easily disrupted by cheating off all those non-shooters.

Of course we have some of these problems even if we don't trade for Ben, it's just he'd make a clunky situation even clunkier.

We just might think of it like 2014 when LeBron made it known he wanted to return. At that time, we in theory had Irving-Waiters-Wiggins-Thompson-Varejao. That's pretty darn clunky, but by shipping assets out left and right Griffin quickly turned that in to Irving-Smith-James-Love-Mozgov and at least got 3 shooters around James.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#686 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 10:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:G'day fellas, Suns fan here. I come in peace

I was wondering what the consensus on the Love situation is here. Seems like the Cavs have been trying to trade him since he signed that extension a few years back. Love is still on the Cavs roster and books and it seemed like the situation was going to reach a buyout sooner rather than later but reports a week or so back seems to indicate there haven't been talks.

Do you guys see a buyout realistically happening before the playoffs this year? Or will you likely keep holding on for a trade?


My opinion is that he nurses injuries longer than anybody in NBA history and has zero desire to hold up his end of the bargain with his contract while being a leech on the Cavs salary cap.

Realistically, he is going to play this entire season as a Cav- he likes it or not. Nobody wants him and he doesnt want a buyout at this number because as a Athletic reporter said 'Kevin loves his money'. So we are stuck with him and he is stuck with us for 1 more season before a realistic buyout happens next offseason.


I get the impression the Cavs approve of Kevin nursing his injuries, but it's a fact his injuries (back, calf, Achilles, etc) are problematic/lingering type injuries that can easily be re-aggravated. If he was actually playing for something, maybe he'd take the pain killers and play.

Management is usually pretty careful with "star" player's injuries and give them a ton of leeway whereas a journeymen or youngish player still has to prove himself by taking every opportunity given to him even if they are injured. Love's injuries have been pretty serious and normally keeps you out of games but I get the impression that if he was playing for something real, he'd probably suck it up and play.

All really good insight and I do hope you guys find a resolution sooner rather than later, not just for the benefit of the buyout market (selfishly) but just to move on from the white elephant and really focus on the future.

Good luck guys
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#687 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 5:12 am

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I thought Simmons was being judged by his playoff flop as a useless player, hence why Philly wants him gone?

In reality, of course he's not Magic or Kawhi but I think he's demonstrated he can help a team win even without Embiid, but the construction is tricky.

In one way he's similar to Magic is that whatever team he's on should be playing a fast-break style because he causes a lot of problems in the half-court.


There is now way you can add Simmons to a team that already starts Okoro/Mobley/Allen. The Cavs would go from dead last in 3pt attempts and percentage to historically low even by 1980s standards. If thats the case then Garland better be shooting 15 threes per game.


It's a problem even if some of them learn how to shoot and/or Windler/Osman/etc get their act together, we could ...

1) Embrace it - win with defense and rebounding;

2) Start trading away young players for veteran shooters (transition immediately to a win now mindset);

3) Fire JBB and bring in a coach with an offensive scheme that doesn't rely on simple P&R actions that can be easily disrupted by cheating off all those non-shooters.

Of course we have some of these problems even if we don't trade for Ben, it's just he'd make a clunky situation even clunkier.

We just might think of it like 2014 when LeBron made it known he wanted to return. At that time, we in theory had Irving-Waiters-Wiggins-Thompson-Varejao. That's pretty darn clunky, but by shipping assets out left and right Griffin quickly turned that in to Irving-Smith-James-Love-Mozgov and at least got 3 shooters around James.
Just no. All types of no.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#688 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 5:15 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
My opinion is that he nurses injuries longer than anybody in NBA history and has zero desire to hold up his end of the bargain with his contract while being a leech on the Cavs salary cap.

Realistically, he is going to play this entire season as a Cav- he likes it or not. Nobody wants him and he doesnt want a buyout at this number because as a Athletic reporter said 'Kevin loves his money'. So we are stuck with him and he is stuck with us for 1 more season before a realistic buyout happens next offseason.


I get the impression the Cavs approve of Kevin nursing his injuries, but it's a fact his injuries (back, calf, Achilles, etc) are problematic/lingering type injuries that can easily be re-aggravated. If he was actually playing for something, maybe he'd take the pain killers and play.

Management is usually pretty careful with "star" player's injuries and give them a ton of leeway whereas a journeymen or youngish player still has to prove himself by taking every opportunity given to him even if they are injured. Love's injuries have been pretty serious and normally keeps you out of games but I get the impression that if he was playing for something real, he'd probably suck it up and play.

All really good insight and I do hope you guys find a resolution sooner rather than later, not just for the benefit of the buyout market (selfishly) but just to move on from the white elephant and really focus on the future.

Good luck guys
He had a calf strain, after not playing basketball for 8 months, that kept him from playing decent basketball for 14 months?

Look, the situation is what it is.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#689 » by KuruptedCav » Wed Sep 8, 2021 12:15 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I think the idea that teams *develop* shooters is a bit silly tbh. It's a skill that can be developed some, but most of it's innate. No one works harder than Jimmy Butler, and while he's improved some since his rookie season, he's still a meh shooter who you'll live with shooting in the postseason as the opponent.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I don’t necessarily disagree. You can’t turn bad into world-beater and you can’t teach someone who doesn’t have a shooter mindset to get one, but you can turn bad shooting into respectable shooting, respectable into good, good into great.

Jimmy came in with no shot, he was like a 25% shooter from mid-range. He’s worked himself to respectable and requiring defenders to actually guard him.

With Simmons, I feel we still judge his value on the potential he had coming into the league rather than the potential he has having been there 5 years with no growth in his game.

He had the potential to be Magic Johnson or Kawhi Leonard, he doesn’t anymore…


I thought Simmons was being judged by his playoff flop as a useless player, hence why Philly wants him gone?

In reality, of course he's not Magic or Kawhi but I think he's demonstrated he can help a team win even without Embiid, but the construction is tricky.

In one way he's similar to Magic is that whatever team he's on should be playing a fast-break style because he causes a lot of problems in the half-court.

Naw. One playoff series is a fun narrative but it’s neither dispositive nor the basis for my thoughts. Here’s a few fun facts:

Ben has played in 6 playoff series. His free throw percentage has gone down in 5 straight series and his ppg each year.

He’s an excellent regular season player. I have no problem making the shift to win-now and moving my chips to the center, Ben Simmons just isn’t that player.


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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#690 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 4:54 pm

For me, I'm only interested in trading for Simmons if K. Love is in the outbox and we're not adding a bunch of picks. You can't have a broken roster in terms of spacing and no realistic means of improving it. You take away cap space and future picks, that's where you are.

It just makes far more sense for Simmons to plug into Bulls, Wolves, or Pacers rosters. Heck, it even makes more sense for him to go to the Kings if they're open to dealing Fox (which they should be IMO). Hali, Heild, and Barnes can provide enough space for Simmons and Holmes.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#691 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:06 pm

jbk1234 wrote:For me, I'm only interested in trading for Simmons if K. Love is in the outbox and we're not adding a bunch of picks. You can't have a broken roster in terms of spacing and no realistic means of improving it. You take away cap space and future picks, that's where you are.

It just makes far more sense for Simmons to plug into Bulls, Wolves, or Pacers rosters. Heck, it even makes more sense for him to go to the Kings if they're open to dealing Fox (which they should be IMO). Hali, Heild, and Barnes can provide enough space for Simmons and Holmes.


Maybe Morey will prove he actually is 10x smarter than Dan Gilbert and Koby Altman, but is Ben actually worth more around the league than Kyrie was when all we could get for him was a lottery ticket and filler once it became clear he wanted out?

One difference is Kyrie had just two more seasons on his contract and made a list .vs. Ben who's got 4 more years and a trade kicker, but nobody is going to give up assets to inherit a malcontent. So I'm not sure how much it matters.

I haven't yet convinced myself obtaining Ben even for the bargain basement price of just Sexton and Love is a good thing, but I get it from a talent acquisition POV and I do believe he can help bump our regular season win total significantly. If the Warriors can convince him to take on a Draymond Green role and play PF - they have the formula/fit/playmaking to make it work. That sort of situation makes a lot of sense, but they probably need a 3-way trade to get Philly someone ready to help them now.

Otoh, the Cavs may end up having to tread water for a few years waiting until Mobley can play C full-time while looking to upgrade their shooting/spacing. Who knows? Maybe Ben would prefer not having the pressure and expectations of a contender - which is fine and good for Cleveland at least until we're actually ready to win something.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#692 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:16 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:For me, I'm only interested in trading for Simmons if K. Love is in the outbox and we're not adding a bunch of picks. You can't have a broken roster in terms of spacing and no realistic means of improving it. You take away cap space and future picks, that's where you are.

It just makes far more sense for Simmons to plug into Bulls, Wolves, or Pacers rosters. Heck, it even makes more sense for him to go to the Kings if they're open to dealing Fox (which they should be IMO). Hali, Heild, and Barnes can provide enough space for Simmons and Holmes.


Maybe Morey will prove he actually is 10x smarter than Dan Gilbert and Koby Altman, but is Ben actually worth more around the league than Kyrie was when all we could get for him was a lottery ticket and filler once it became clear he wanted out?

One difference is Kyrie had just two more seasons on his contract and made a list .vs. Ben who's got 4 more years and a trade kicker, but nobody is going to give up assets to inherit a malcontent. So I'm not sure how much it matters.

I haven't yet convinced myself obtaining Ben even for the bargain basement price of just Sexton and Love is a good thing, but I get it from a talent acquisition POV and I do believe he can help bump our regular season win total significantly. If the Warriors can convince him to take on a Draymond Green role and play PF - they have the formula/fit/playmaking to make it work. That sort of situation makes a lot of sense, but they probably need a 3-way trade to get Philly someone ready to help them now.

Otoh, the Cavs may end up having to tread water for a few years waiting until Mobley can play C full-time while looking to upgrade their shooting/spacing. Who knows? Maybe Ben would prefer not having the pressure and expectations of a contender - which is fine and good for Cleveland at least until we're actually ready to win something.


I think you have to swap Okoro for a wing who's able to shoot as well. Having three non-shooters on the floor is like having three bad defenders. It's just too much to overcome.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#693 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:37 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:For me, I'm only interested in trading for Simmons if K. Love is in the outbox and we're not adding a bunch of picks. You can't have a broken roster in terms of spacing and no realistic means of improving it. You take away cap space and future picks, that's where you are.

It just makes far more sense for Simmons to plug into Bulls, Wolves, or Pacers rosters. Heck, it even makes more sense for him to go to the Kings if they're open to dealing Fox (which they should be IMO). Hali, Heild, and Barnes can provide enough space for Simmons and Holmes.


Maybe Morey will prove he actually is 10x smarter than Dan Gilbert and Koby Altman, but is Ben actually worth more around the league than Kyrie was when all we could get for him was a lottery ticket and filler once it became clear he wanted out?

One difference is Kyrie had just two more seasons on his contract and made a list .vs. Ben who's got 4 more years and a trade kicker, but nobody is going to give up assets to inherit a malcontent. So I'm not sure how much it matters.

I haven't yet convinced myself obtaining Ben even for the bargain basement price of just Sexton and Love is a good thing, but I get it from a talent acquisition POV and I do believe he can help bump our regular season win total significantly. If the Warriors can convince him to take on a Draymond Green role and play PF - they have the formula/fit/playmaking to make it work. That sort of situation makes a lot of sense, but they probably need a 3-way trade to get Philly someone ready to help them now.

Otoh, the Cavs may end up having to tread water for a few years waiting until Mobley can play C full-time while looking to upgrade their shooting/spacing. Who knows? Maybe Ben would prefer not having the pressure and expectations of a contender - which is fine and good for Cleveland at least until we're actually ready to win something.


I think you have to swap Okoro for a wing who's able to shoot as well. Having three non-shooters on the floor is like having three bad defenders. It's just too much to overcome.


The key is Mobley ... drafting him reset our rebuild timeline, but trading for Simmons would seem to be a win now move. So which is it really?

If the move is really more about grabbing a depressed asset for parts we want to move, that changes the calculus. We can hold on to Okoro and let him continue to develop and see how our other options play.

Otoh, if we want to win now, then Mobley may need to take a back seat (suddenly the Markennen trade makes a lot more sense) and we're on the clock to fix the shooting. It would be great to have it resolved before training camp, but the goal isn't to just add another hope/prayer (like a Cam Reddish) but a player who can step-in and help win. So we might have to wait.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#694 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:58 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Maybe Morey will prove he actually is 10x smarter than Dan Gilbert and Koby Altman, but is Ben actually worth more around the league than Kyrie was when all we could get for him was a lottery ticket and filler once it became clear he wanted out?

One difference is Kyrie had just two more seasons on his contract and made a list .vs. Ben who's got 4 more years and a trade kicker, but nobody is going to give up assets to inherit a malcontent. So I'm not sure how much it matters.

I haven't yet convinced myself obtaining Ben even for the bargain basement price of just Sexton and Love is a good thing, but I get it from a talent acquisition POV and I do believe he can help bump our regular season win total significantly. If the Warriors can convince him to take on a Draymond Green role and play PF - they have the formula/fit/playmaking to make it work. That sort of situation makes a lot of sense, but they probably need a 3-way trade to get Philly someone ready to help them now.

Otoh, the Cavs may end up having to tread water for a few years waiting until Mobley can play C full-time while looking to upgrade their shooting/spacing. Who knows? Maybe Ben would prefer not having the pressure and expectations of a contender - which is fine and good for Cleveland at least until we're actually ready to win something.


I think you have to swap Okoro for a wing who's able to shoot as well. Having three non-shooters on the floor is like having three bad defenders. It's just too much to overcome.


The key is Mobley ... drafting him reset our rebuild timeline, but trading for Simmons would seem to be a win now move. So which is it really?

If the move is really more about grabbing a depressed asset for parts we want to move, that changes the calculus. We can hold on to Okoro and let him continue to develop and see how our other options play.

Otoh, if we want to win now, then Mobley may need to take a back seat (suddenly the Markennen trade makes a lot more sense) and we're on the clock to fix the shooting. It would be great to have it resolved before training camp, but the goal isn't to just add another hope/prayer (like a Cam Reddish) but a player who can step-in and help win. So we might have to wait.


If you trade for Simmons now, then your eventual core is Garland, Simmons, and Mobley. Anyone on the roster who can't shoot needs to be available for shooters tbh. The problem is that I don't believe Mobley is physically ready to play the 5 in the NBA so at least for a season or two you're probably holding onto Allen. Do you give Okoro another season and bring him off the bench or try to move him right away? Do you stagger minutes between Garland and Simmons so you can trade Rubio? It just seems like everything we've done with the roster, other than trading for Lauri, has been backwards if the goal was to trade for Simmons.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#695 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 8, 2021 8:24 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I think you have to swap Okoro for a wing who's able to shoot as well. Having three non-shooters on the floor is like having three bad defenders. It's just too much to overcome.


The key is Mobley ... drafting him reset our rebuild timeline, but trading for Simmons would seem to be a win now move. So which is it really?

If the move is really more about grabbing a depressed asset for parts we want to move, that changes the calculus. We can hold on to Okoro and let him continue to develop and see how our other options play.

Otoh, if we want to win now, then Mobley may need to take a back seat (suddenly the Markennen trade makes a lot more sense) and we're on the clock to fix the shooting. It would be great to have it resolved before training camp, but the goal isn't to just add another hope/prayer (like a Cam Reddish) but a player who can step-in and help win. So we might have to wait.


If you trade for Simmons now, then your eventual core is Garland, Simmons, and Mobley. Anyone on the roster who can't shoot needs to be available for shooters tbh. The problem is that I don't believe Mobley is physically ready to play the 5 in the NBA so at least for a season or two you're probably holding onto Allen. Do you give Okoro another season and bring him off the bench or try to move him right away? Do you stagger minutes between Garland and Simmons so you can trade Rubio? It just seems like everything we've done with the roster, other than trading for Lauri, has been backwards if the goal was to trade for Simmons.


Hopefully whatever we do, we have realistic expectations, because Ben is not a one man half-court wrecking ball like LeBron. You can't just surround him with shooters and expect success. It's the starting point, not the end point.

Even in comparison to Draymond ... at least Green is willing to attempt 3pters (and once upon a time actually shot them well) and is willing to guard PF's and C's letting the Warriors play small lineups. Like Ben he's not creating anything off the dribble, but he's gifted with constant 4v3's because Steph draws doubles.

We'd all love if Garland could get somewhere close to Steph with his game, but we know he's not there now.

If it was my job on the line, I know I'd feel better sticking to the collecting assets and improving day by day line of thought. There's just so many things that can go wrong if Dan decides we need to go all-in now and that's what we sell Ben on.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#696 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:03 pm

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#697 » by LivingLegend » Wed Sep 8, 2021 11:19 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The key is Mobley ... drafting him reset our rebuild timeline, but trading for Simmons would seem to be a win now move. So which is it really?

If the move is really more about grabbing a depressed asset for parts we want to move, that changes the calculus. We can hold on to Okoro and let him continue to develop and see how our other options play.

Otoh, if we want to win now, then Mobley may need to take a back seat (suddenly the Markennen trade makes a lot more sense) and we're on the clock to fix the shooting. It would be great to have it resolved before training camp, but the goal isn't to just add another hope/prayer (like a Cam Reddish) but a player who can step-in and help win. So we might have to wait.


If you trade for Simmons now, then your eventual core is Garland, Simmons, and Mobley. Anyone on the roster who can't shoot needs to be available for shooters tbh. The problem is that I don't believe Mobley is physically ready to play the 5 in the NBA so at least for a season or two you're probably holding onto Allen. Do you give Okoro another season and bring him off the bench or try to move him right away? Do you stagger minutes between Garland and Simmons so you can trade Rubio? It just seems like everything we've done with the roster, other than trading for Lauri, has been backwards if the goal was to trade for Simmons.


Hopefully whatever we do, we have realistic expectations, because Ben is not a one man half-court wrecking ball like LeBron. You can't just surround him with shooters and expect success. It's the starting point, not the end point.

Even in comparison to Draymond ... at least Green is willing to attempt 3pters (and once upon a time actually shot them well) and is willing to guard PF's and C's letting the Warriors play small lineups. Like Ben he's not creating anything off the dribble, but he's gifted with constant 4v3's because Steph draws doubles.

We'd all love if Garland could get somewhere close to Steph with his game, but we know he's not there now.

If it was my job on the line, I know I'd feel better sticking to the collecting assets and improving day by day line of thought. There's just so many things that can go wrong if Dan decides we need to go all-in now and that's what we sell Ben on.


Maybe the Cavs think they can develop him into a average shooter? The improved Sexton and went all-in on Okoro improving as well. Maybe they think they can do the same with Simmons and get him to at least a Draymond level shooter.

The other thing is the injuries. Which after dealing with Love......whoof.

I like Simmons and I would like him on this team because let's be honest, the Cavs haven't had a talent like his on this team if Lebron's name wasn't attached. You also better believe Gilbert will be thinking about the revenue he would bring if he could at least get us back into the playoff race.

I like him, but there is just so much roster re-tooling that would need to happen if you bring him in. Literally everybody not named Allen/Simmons/Okoro would have to be a 36%+ three point shooter to offset what those other guys don't do. I also think making sure Maxey is included in the deal is mandatory, especially if we are giving up future picks.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#698 » by JonFromVA » Wed Sep 8, 2021 11:35 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
If you trade for Simmons now, then your eventual core is Garland, Simmons, and Mobley. Anyone on the roster who can't shoot needs to be available for shooters tbh. The problem is that I don't believe Mobley is physically ready to play the 5 in the NBA so at least for a season or two you're probably holding onto Allen. Do you give Okoro another season and bring him off the bench or try to move him right away? Do you stagger minutes between Garland and Simmons so you can trade Rubio? It just seems like everything we've done with the roster, other than trading for Lauri, has been backwards if the goal was to trade for Simmons.


Hopefully whatever we do, we have realistic expectations, because Ben is not a one man half-court wrecking ball like LeBron. You can't just surround him with shooters and expect success. It's the starting point, not the end point.

Even in comparison to Draymond ... at least Green is willing to attempt 3pters (and once upon a time actually shot them well) and is willing to guard PF's and C's letting the Warriors play small lineups. Like Ben he's not creating anything off the dribble, but he's gifted with constant 4v3's because Steph draws doubles.

We'd all love if Garland could get somewhere close to Steph with his game, but we know he's not there now.

If it was my job on the line, I know I'd feel better sticking to the collecting assets and improving day by day line of thought. There's just so many things that can go wrong if Dan decides we need to go all-in now and that's what we sell Ben on.


Maybe the Cavs think they can develop him into a average shooter? The improved Sexton and went all-in on Okoro improving as well. Maybe they think they can do the same with Simmons and get him to at least a Draymond level shooter.

The other thing is the injuries. Which after dealing with Love......whoof.

I like Simmons and I would like him on this team because let's be honest, the Cavs haven't had a talent like his on this team if Lebron's name wasn't attached. You also better believe Gilbert will be thinking about the revenue he would bring if he could at least get us back into the playoff race.

I like him, but there is just so much roster re-tooling that would need to happen if you bring him in. Literally everybody not named Allen/Simmons/Okoro would have to be a 36%+ three point shooter to offset what those other guys don't do. I also think making sure Maxey is included in the deal is mandatory, especially if we are giving up future picks.


Well, if the Cavs were willing to slow the horses on the win now thought... they could consider things like having Ben try to switch his shooting hand ala Tristan. Alas, it didn't help Tristan all that much.

I wouldn't have any hopes in regards to Ben's shooting, they just better have some ideas in mind of how they're going to keep the defense honest when Ben's on the floor.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#699 » by jbk1234 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:52 am

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Hopefully whatever we do, we have realistic expectations, because Ben is not a one man half-court wrecking ball like LeBron. You can't just surround him with shooters and expect success. It's the starting point, not the end point.

Even in comparison to Draymond ... at least Green is willing to attempt 3pters (and once upon a time actually shot them well) and is willing to guard PF's and C's letting the Warriors play small lineups. Like Ben he's not creating anything off the dribble, but he's gifted with constant 4v3's because Steph draws doubles.

We'd all love if Garland could get somewhere close to Steph with his game, but we know he's not there now.

If it was my job on the line, I know I'd feel better sticking to the collecting assets and improving day by day line of thought. There's just so many things that can go wrong if Dan decides we need to go all-in now and that's what we sell Ben on.


Maybe the Cavs think they can develop him into a average shooter? The improved Sexton and went all-in on Okoro improving as well. Maybe they think they can do the same with Simmons and get him to at least a Draymond level shooter.

The other thing is the injuries. Which after dealing with Love......whoof.

I like Simmons and I would like him on this team because let's be honest, the Cavs haven't had a talent like his on this team if Lebron's name wasn't attached. You also better believe Gilbert will be thinking about the revenue he would bring if he could at least get us back into the playoff race.

I like him, but there is just so much roster re-tooling that would need to happen if you bring him in. Literally everybody not named Allen/Simmons/Okoro would have to be a 36%+ three point shooter to offset what those other guys don't do. I also think making sure Maxey is included in the deal is mandatory, especially if we are giving up future picks.


Well, if the Cavs were willing to slow the horses on the win now thought... they could consider things like having Ben try to switch his shooting hand ala Tristan. Alas, it didn't help Tristan all that much.

I wouldn't have any hopes in regards to Ben's shooting, they just better have some ideas in mind of how they're going to keep the defense honest when Ben's on the floor.
This increasingly feels like Drummond part 2, but more expensive.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#700 » by KuruptedCav » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:55 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Maybe the Cavs think they can develop him into a average shooter? The improved Sexton and went all-in on Okoro improving as well. Maybe they think they can do the same with Simmons and get him to at least a Draymond level shooter.

The other thing is the injuries. Which after dealing with Love......whoof.

I like Simmons and I would like him on this team because let's be honest, the Cavs haven't had a talent like his on this team if Lebron's name wasn't attached. You also better believe Gilbert will be thinking about the revenue he would bring if he could at least get us back into the playoff race.

I like him, but there is just so much roster re-tooling that would need to happen if you bring him in. Literally everybody not named Allen/Simmons/Okoro would have to be a 36%+ three point shooter to offset what those other guys don't do. I also think making sure Maxey is included in the deal is mandatory, especially if we are giving up future picks.


Well, if the Cavs were willing to slow the horses on the win now thought... they could consider things like having Ben try to switch his shooting hand ala Tristan. Alas, it didn't help Tristan all that much.

I wouldn't have any hopes in regards to Ben's shooting, they just better have some ideas in mind of how they're going to keep the defense honest when Ben's on the floor.
This increasingly feels like Drummond part 2, but more expensive.

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You traded X for me and to pay me $35 mil/yr because you wanted me.

I didn’t ask for any of that. I don’t wo you. Why would I change anything that has made me so coveted, so successful?


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