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2021 off season thread

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#701 » by Harper4Ferry? » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:56 am

Anyone know anything about Pangos? Thinking that Sexton(orGarland)/Osman/Rubio(is he tradeable yet)/picks matches Simmons if Philly isn’t going to take Love. Otherwise why sign another PG to a guaranteed deal?
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#702 » by jbk1234 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:24 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Anyone know anything about Pangos? Thinking that Sexton(orGarland)/Osman/Rubio(is he tradeable yet)/picks matches Simmons if Philly isn’t going to take Love. Otherwise why sign another PG to a guaranteed deal?
Garland shouldn't even be in the conversation for a Simmons trade.

Imagine the spacing in a starting unit that had Sexton, Okoro, Simmons, and Allen. Steph Curry couldn't fix that.

Rubio is tradable on October 1st.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#703 » by lambchop » Thu Sep 9, 2021 11:39 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Anyone know anything about Pangos?


High basketball IQ, good floor general and passer with a good shot. But he is pretty small so he could get abused on defense for sure. But I am happy to see him in the NBA.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#704 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:21 pm

After these playoffs Ben is considered a "broken toy", but the real red flag which has been with him since College are the questions regarding his drive, love of the game, etc. His talent level is so high, he's been successful despite, but he's kind of the opposite of what we've been drafting these past 4 years.

The Cavs know how to coddle a star, but they don't fix these problems, they enable them and suffer - which is why it was smart of them to draft the players they did and risky to take a chance on Drummond and perhaps even Love.

So, Ben may not cost very much in trade, but that doesn't mean there won't be a cost. Collin is the type of player who will step up and try to make a big play in high pressure moments ... Ben may freeze ... but how much does it matter if your goal is just to get to the playoffs?

I always say the best predictor in a draft profile are the negatives. DraftExpress has always been the best among what's available to sports fans. Here's some of the things they pointed out about Ben:

"Long before some of the loudest but most uninformed voices anointed Ben Simmons the next LeBron James or Magic Johnson, there was already a significant debate within NBA front offices about whether Simmons was even the consensus No. 1 overall pick in the 2016 NBA draft. As the flaws in Simmons' game became more apparent for LSU this season, the question has never changed: Who's No. 1 in June? For several reasons, Simmons' candidacy as the No. 1 overall prospect is in peril.

Video Analysis of the Last Game of Simmons' College Career

Simmons' lack of competitiveness in some crucial games has raised questions about his character as a basketball player. While many top picks succumb to the NBA star lifestyle and emerge as average competitors, it's rare to see that at the collegiate level. From Blake Griffin to Michael Beasley to Carmelo Anthony, those elite college players were rarely questioned about their drive during their collegiate careers. Simmons has displayed an apathy for defense, contact and delivering winning plays in crucial moments. Those troubling revelations in Simmons' game are cause for concern among decision-makers on lottery teams with whom we've had contact.

Here's what NBA teams wonder: If Simmons cares so little about winning crucial college road games at Tennessee or Kentucky that could have delivered LSU to the NCAA tournament, how much will he consistently care about competing over a far more physically and mentally draining 82-game pro season? Truth be told, Simmons will almost assuredly be on a bad team that will need to fight every night to win games.

2. Simmons' box scores have grown increasingly hollow. One NBA executive described him as a taller Rajon Rondo, a more athletic Evan Turner, or a skinnier Royce White. Simmons has displayed a penchant for stat-mongering like few players in recent memory, seeming to pad his numbers in blowouts. At times, it appears he only passes when guaranteed an assist and chases home-run plays at inopportune times in search of a highlight. Simmons seems to value those things over winning.

Simmons' porous defense is masked by his gaudy steal and block numbers. But when watching him closely, it's clear that no opposing player or coach fears attacking him. As Simmons rarely makes the effort to close out on shooters, put a body on opposing big men, or offer much beyond gambling wildly swiping for steals, his lack of intensity is amplified. He has wonderful anticipation skills as a rebounder and will wow you with his instincts in passing lanes. But overall, Simmons hasn't shown the length, toughness and inclination to emerge as an asset on the defensive end.

Simmons' short wingspan (measured 6-foot-11 at the Nike Hoop Summit in April and the Nike Skills Academy in June) won't help him play power forward on an NBA lottery team. To make up for his lack of length, he'll have to display a much higher activity level than what he's shown in college.

3. The report on defending Simmons in the half-court is well known and was utilized effectively in recent weeks. Teams put smaller players on Simmons, backing off him and daring him to shoot. Simmons seems to have zero confidence in his outside shot and becomes passive when guarded this way.

For his size (6-10), Simmons is a gifted ball-handler. He has an incredible ability to change speeds, get to the rim and finish in transition. In the half-court, things haven't been quite as easy against better teams, particularly late in games. There are real questions about pairing Simmons with other ball-handlers or non-shooters in the NBA. Does drafting Simmons in the high lottery mean a team needs to trade the likes of D'Angelo Russell, Julius Randle, Jahlil Okafor or Dario Saric?

4. Simmons' teammates aren't as bad as many would lead you to believe. LSU has six consensus top-100 recruits on their roster (and two more who were ranked just outside the top-100 by various outlets), far more than the overwhelming majority of teams that made this year's NCAA Tournament. If Simmons were truly the -transcendent can't miss superstar many would lead you to believe, he would have found ways to win games against the likes of College of Charleston, Houston, Wake Forest, Marquette, Tennessee, Alabama, N.C. State and South Carolina, all of whom are ranked outside of the KenPom Top-50. LSU doesn't lack talent as much as they lack chemistry, and part of the blame for that has to go to their best player.

Many will point the finger to LSU's head coach Johnny Jones as the culprit behind his team's underachieving, and there certainly is some truth to that. But Simmons has no one to blame for that but himself. Simmons may never get the chance to pick his head coach again in his career, and he decided to put his faith in Jones and his own godfather David Patrick. If Simmons was so quick to quit on his own self-described family member and the head coach he handpicked for himself to lead him at the college level, as soon as things got a little bit difficult, what will happen when he hits a patch of adversity at the NBA level? Will his future agent demand a trade? Or for the head coach to be fired like Simmons' supposed new best friend LeBron James reportedly did with David Blatt?

5. The concerns about Simmons' character didn't magically appear the moment he arrived on campus in Baton Rouge. Those sentiments also have been expressed by members of the Australian national team who have spent time with him at the junior and senior levels. Australian players and coaches who have been around him don't speak about him in flattering terms, calling him the Yank to highlight how different he is compared with most of the players from that country, and perhaps highlight how much moving to the United States at a young age and immersing himself in the AAU world has shaped him.

Those who know him best say he needs things to revolve around him on and off the court and that he's often been close-minded to coaching or instruction. Can all this be blamed on LSU? Check out the mentality section of Simmons' weaknesses breakdown in a video Mike Schmitz created prior to this season.

...

The uncertainty surrounding Simmons has cleared the way for Duke forward Brandon Ingram to be considered the No. 1 overall prospect. Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons, has a longer wingspan by four inches and a standing reach six and a half inches higher.

Ingram is a better shooter which is perhaps the most important skill in today's NBA and has shown a much better trajectory throughout the college season. The intel on Ingram as a teammate and competitor has been much stronger than Simmons'. Yes, Ingram has a much more frail frame now, but it's easy to envision him filling out as he ages and matures.

There is still plenty of time for Simmons to improve his approach to the game and reach his potential. Although he's not the generational talent he's been sold as by some, he's a unique prospect who could emerge as an incredible asset to a team down the road if he's willing to address his flaws.

If Simmons had a far stronger preliminary case in November to become the No. 1 overall pick in June, our recent conversations with NBA executives have offered a far different reality for Simmons. There may never be a consensus choice for the first pick in this draft, but make no mistake: The debate is on, and the overhyping of Simmons has made its reckoning. Ingram has played himself into the debate, and it promises to rage into late June.


https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/pre_draft_analysis_of_ben_simmons_from_2016_shows_there_were_always_questions_surrounding_his_play_and_his_mentality_simmons_lack_of_competitiveness_in_some_crucial_games_has_raised_questions_about_his_character_as_a_basketball_player/s1_16751_35557151
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#705 » by JonFromVA » Thu Sep 9, 2021 7:19 pm

lambchop wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:Anyone know anything about Pangos?


High basketball IQ, good floor general and passer with a good shot. But he is pretty small so he could get abused on defense for sure. But I am happy to see him in the NBA.


Should provide some competition in practice, and if Rubio and Pangos make better use of their teammates hopefully Garland and Sexton will watch and learn.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#706 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:22 pm

I will say on behalf of Ben that one bad playoff series does not define a career, it's just very strange that his best series to date was his first when he averaged 18/10/9 and shot 71% on his free throws in a first round win over Miami in 2018.

The problem is someone is going to have to pay him a lot of money to find out. Effectively reducing his salary by the dead cap which is Kevin Love's contract would make taking his contract on a lot more palatable for the Cavs than it would be for other teams.

Of course, Love's contract is not particularly attractive for Philly.

Rubio's 60 day trade moratorium should be up by the end of September. That's something to watch.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#707 » by mojo13 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:22 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Anyone know anything about Pangos? Thinking that Sexton(orGarland)/Osman/Rubio(is he tradeable yet)/picks matches Simmons if Philly isn’t going to take Love. Otherwise why sign another PG to a guaranteed deal?



Big Team Canada booster here so I’ve followed Pangos’ career fairly closely.
The timing hasn’t really been right for KP and the NBA until this year. Nor did he really have the resume to deserve it.

He started well in 15/16 in Spain’s ACB as a rookie and the next year he was pulled up to the EuroLeague with Zalgiris (Lithuania) and played well. His second year with Zalgiris he really flourish (2nd Team All EuroLeague). but many thought it was more system and coaching than anything.

He was then signed to big money club Barcelona and it didn’t go well. (about $3MM per year 2 years guaranteed) This was a mix of injuries and not a good system/coach for him. He missed the entire 19/20 season due to injury (foot) and his doubters were again claiming his success at Zalgiris was an aberration. Coming off that injury the big clubs (and the NBA) were not interested, so he signed with Zenit ( a lower level EuroLeague club – St Petersburg, Russia) at a much smaller salary and just killed it last year. He took a bad Zenit club on his shoulders and lead them to the playoffs giving a stacked Real Madrid a real scare. He earned 1st Team All EuroLeague and clearly looking like on of the best 2 or 3 PGs in Europe. This coincided with his free agency. He had almost every EuroLeague club chasing him and reportedly had an offer from the biggest budget club CSKA (Moscow) for 2 years guaranteed at ~$4MM per year. He took a big pay cut to join Cleveland and chase an NBA dream – I hope it works out for him.

I think he can run point in the NBA just fine, but his defense is my concern. The effort and IQ is there, but he is somewhat undersized (6'2, short wingspan) and is attacked in Europe – and it isn’t going to be any easier in the NBA. He can also play off ball as well and could handle SG minutes.

Note that for Team Canada, I’m convinced he is one of our best true PGs and would have no real problem seeing him start at PG surrounded by NBA players. In the 2019 World Cup Nick Nurse clearly favored Pangos as lead PG and shifted Cory Joseph to SG.

Super smart PG, excellent passer, great in the PR, excellent shooter with a great pull up and floater game. I really hope there is a path to minutes in Cleveland.



Per Synergy Kevin Pangos shot an eFG% of 69% in spot up situations and 55% on pull-up jump shots in the EuroLeague last season.
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Here is a good highlight package of his year in Zenit.




He was definitely influenced by Steve Nash growing up.. Some Cavs fans are reminiscing about Mark Price.
Obviously nothing equivalent, just ghosts being seen.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#708 » by JonFromVA » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:19 pm

mojo13 wrote:He was definitely influenced by Steve Nash growing up.. Some Cavs fans are reminiscing about Mark Price.
Obviously nothing equivalent, just ghosts being seen.


His highlights reminded me of watching Šarūnas Jasikevičius highlights when he was coming to the NBA and was considering the Cavs ... alas he went to the Pacers where NBA reality set in.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#709 » by mojo13 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:35 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
mojo13 wrote:He was definitely influenced by Steve Nash growing up.. Some Cavs fans are reminiscing about Mark Price.
Obviously nothing equivalent, just ghosts being seen.


His highlights reminded me of watching Šarūnas Jasikevičius highlights when he was coming to the NBA and was considering the Cavs ... alas he went to the Pacers where NBA reality set in.



that's interesting you say that

He played for Šarūnas at Zalgiris for 2 years and is where he really blossomed. It was Šarūnas' first two years as head coach and Pangos' first two years in the EuroLeague. Seemed a good match where Šarūnas really maximized KPs abilities and why some thought KPs success there was system/coach driven.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#710 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:15 am

Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#711 » by LivingLegend » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:03 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.


Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#712 » by DroseReturnChi » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:18 am

LivingLegend wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.


Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.


denzel is another lotto player that was misused. he is worth above 4mil. just dont let him heat check.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#713 » by KuruptedCav » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:14 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.


Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.

Dotson, Kabengele, Stevens, Wade… why not?


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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#714 » by jbk1234 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:37 pm

JonFromVA wrote:I will say on behalf of Ben that one bad playoff series does not define a career, it's just very strange that his best series to date was his first when he averaged 18/10/9 and shot 71% on his free throws in a first round win over Miami in 2018.

The problem is someone is going to have to pay him a lot of money to find out. Effectively reducing his salary by the dead cap which is Kevin Love's contract would make taking his contract on a lot more palatable for the Cavs than it would be for other teams.

Of course, Love's contract is not particularly attractive for Philly.

Rubio's 60 day trade moratorium should be up by the end of September. That's something to watch.
It's not one bad playoff series that has Ben's trade value where it is.

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#715 » by Revenged25 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:44 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.


Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.


If the Cavs can't get any proven players to sign with them in FA why not take a chance on lottery ticket type players?
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#716 » by jbk1234 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:52 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.


Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.


If the Cavs can't get any proven players to sign with them in FA why not take a chance on lottery ticket type players?
Obviously defense is a concern with Valentine, but we have enough one-way defenders on the bench to make it work.

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#717 » by jbk1234 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:04 pm

For those of you wondering, no I won't be doing a Dotson appreciation thread:

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#718 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:22 pm

Thanks to the gods
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#719 » by JonFromVA » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:25 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:Considering our backup PG’s last year were wretched this sounds great. Delly couldn’t do anything. Cedi was erratic and launching off balanced 3s. Daymean Dotson is not an NBA caliber player. So any competence from the backup PG spot is aces.


Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.


Anytime after September 29th (or so), but of course we may or may not get something back in the trade.

Valentine has a reputation as a shooter, perhaps Chicago's PG play wasn't helping him.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#720 » by DroseReturnChi » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:37 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Sure seems like this Euro guy was signed to take Rubios spot as the backup PG once Rubio is traded at the deadline.

Also, Denzel Valentine? Whoof The Cavs are just taking fliers on anybody who at one point showed promise. Good strategy I guess.


If the Cavs can't get any proven players to sign with them in FA why not take a chance on lottery ticket type players?
Obviously defense is a concern with Valentine, but we have enough one-way defenders on the bench to make it work.

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defense is not a problem for denzel. same for lauri. these guys arent going to slack off like all stars do they give max effort.
what im concerned is being in chicago ruined their careers and im not sure if cleveland is the ideal place given that rose struggled here as well although he was a borderline all star guy.

check their draft profile and they have their ways of playing their games. believe it or not, valentine was a draymond green type player coming from msu while lauri was also the best 7ft shooting prospect history has ever seen that has some point forward skills.
improving to their fullest potential is whats important but if you start nitpicking small stuff like defense, thats when their confidence goes down with the benching. idc homw many minutes they get just play them together and away from sexton to make them feel home. try to play val as full time pg feeding lauri.
Doncic will be goat. Lauri will be his sidekick.

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