2021-22 regular season thread

[jbk1234]

Bridges got 4/90 and his advanced stats are a ton better than Colin's in regards to VORP and WAR. I know Colin is probably difficult to accurately judge when our team has had such awful players around him. But his extension value shouldn't exceed what Bridges got.

I think it's a good deal for the Suns, but if I'm being honest, I'm not 100% sure. His best year was last year and he averaged 13.5 ppg. You're obviously paying based on his overall impact, and projected growth, but I'm hoping for at least 15 ppg for $20M plus and he could regress back to 10 ppg.

I also agree with you that he's objectively worth more than Sexton right now based on impact alone, and that's why the numbers people are throwing around for Sexton seem nuts to me.



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[JonFromVA]

Bridges got 4/90 and his advanced stats are a ton better than Colin's in regards to VORP and WAR. I know Colin is probably difficult to accurately judge when our team has had such awful players around him. But his extension value shouldn't exceed what Bridges got.

I think it's a good deal for the Suns, but if I'm being honest, I'm not 100% sure. His best year was last year and he averaged 13.5 ppg. You're obviously paying based on his overall impact, and projected growth, but I'm hoping for at least 15 ppg for $20M plus and he could regress back to 10 ppg.

I also agree with you that he's objectively worth more than Sexton right now based on impact alone, and that's why the numbers people are throwing around for Sexton seem nuts to me.



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Real teams need guys who finish plays effectively and don't need the ball. The fact he plays defense is gravy.

We don't have even one player like that.

[jbk1234]

Bridges got 4/90 and his advanced stats are a ton better than Colin's in regards to VORP and WAR. I know Colin is probably difficult to accurately judge when our team has had such awful players around him. But his extension value shouldn't exceed what Bridges got.

I think it's a good deal for the Suns, but if I'm being honest, I'm not 100% sure. His best year was last year and he averaged 13.5 ppg. You're obviously paying based on his overall impact, and projected growth, but I'm hoping for at least 15 ppg for $20M plus and he could regress back to 10 ppg.

I also agree with you that he's objectively worth more than Sexton right now based on impact alone, and that's why the numbers people are throwing around for Sexton seem nuts to me.



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Real teams need guys who finish plays effectively and don't need the ball. The fact he plays defense is gravy.

We don't have even one player like that.

Allen is kind of like that. Hopefully Mobley gets there. I'm worried about Okoro but if I allow myself to imagine best case scenario, I could see it.

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[JonFromVA]

I think it's a good deal for the Suns, but if I'm being honest, I'm not 100% sure. His best year was last year and he averaged 13.5 ppg. You're obviously paying based on his overall impact, and projected growth, but I'm hoping for at least 15 ppg for $20M plus and he could regress back to 10 ppg.

I also agree with you that he's objectively worth more than Sexton right now based on impact alone, and that's why the numbers people are throwing around for Sexton seem nuts to me.



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Real teams need guys who finish plays effectively and don't need the ball. The fact he plays defense is gravy.

We don't have even one player like that.

Allen is kind of like that. Hopefully Mobley gets there. I'm worried about Okoro but if I allow myself to imagine best case scenario, I could see it.

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None of them shoot the 3 efficiently at this point. Bridges does and finishes well at the rim. So even if this was a career year being fed by CP3 - he's been pretty efficient without him.

[JonFromVA]

There's often no warning before the Cavs make a move, but I have a feeling Collin isn't going to get an extension or traded before the extension deadline tonight.

[LivingLegend]

I'm fine with Tacko getting a 2 way deal. Vs certain teams he could be playable. But it's a very small handful.

Im holding out hope he can be developed into a Rudy Gobert type player. Just stand there and dunk everything and become a elite interior defender.

[JonFromVA]

I'm fine with Tacko getting a 2 way deal. Vs certain teams he could be playable. But it's a very small handful.

Im holding out hope he can be developed into a Rudy Gobert type player. Just stand there and dunk everything and become a elite interior defender.

Tacko will be turning 26 soon, so, we can't put a lot of faith in his growth curve ... but he has put up impressive numbers in his limited minutes. So, the trick is figuring out how to make him playable outside of garbage time.

[LivingLegend]

I think he's a pure scorer, he has a very strong scorer's instinct, and he's a very instinctive player. There are little things he could do to make his game more well rounded, but he primarily relies on his speed to get by his defender and he's so fast that he commits pretty early on in the play. All of that has value. He has a role. But you don't build *around* that player. He accepts the role that's best for the team, or not.

Unless of course he grows ...

Anything is possible, but at some point, you get paid to assess probabilities. There's a cost that accompanies keeping him in the starting unit while you're waiting for growth that may, or may not, materialize. Other starters need to develop and/or grow. At some point, the team needs to run something that's a lot closer to an actual NBA offense than what we've been witness to over the last three years.

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I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

[toooskies]

I'm fine with Tacko getting a 2 way deal. Vs certain teams he could be playable. But it's a very small handful.

Im holding out hope he can be developed into a Rudy Gobert type player. Just stand there and dunk everything and become a elite interior defender.

Tacko will be turning 26 soon, so, we can't put a lot of faith in his growth curve ... but he has put up impressive numbers in his limited minutes. So, the trick is figuring out how to make him playable outside of garbage time.

His height is a nice curveball but I can't imagine him doing anything beyond being a gimmick play against a team unprepared to get around his height. But teams will already be hesitant in the paint because of Mobley and Allen, so I'm not even sure he's more than an OK backup. Maybe we play a ton of zone D?

[El Hespiritu]

Just give Tacko 3 full minutes in a row sharing court with RRubio (pick whatever three other guys to make the lineup... I don't care).

And then you tell me.

[toooskies]

Unless of course he grows ...

Anything is possible, but at some point, you get paid to assess probabilities. There's a cost that accompanies keeping him in the starting unit while you're waiting for growth that may, or may not, materialize. Other starters need to develop and/or grow. At some point, the team needs to run something that's a lot closer to an actual NBA offense than what we've been witness to over the last three years.

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I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

It's really not though. We can try forever with this core as long as we're willing to pay them. It may be the last time Sexton is tradeable for value, but we should probably do that instead of benching him (if he doesn't get extended today) and killing that value.

[Revenged25]

Anything is possible, but at some point, you get paid to assess probabilities. There's a cost that accompanies keeping him in the starting unit while you're waiting for growth that may, or may not, materialize. Other starters need to develop and/or grow. At some point, the team needs to run something that's a lot closer to an actual NBA offense than what we've been witness to over the last three years.

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I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

It's really not though. We can try forever with this core as long as we're willing to pay them. It may be the last time Sexton is tradeable for value, but we should probably do that instead of benching him (if he doesn't get extended today) and killing that value.

I think if Sexton is extended today he's getting the same AAV as Rozier.

[LivingLegend]

I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

It's really not though. We can try forever with this core as long as we're willing to pay them. It may be the last time Sexton is tradeable for value, but we should probably do that instead of benching him (if he doesn't get extended today) and killing that value.

I think if Sexton is extended today he's getting the same AAV as Rozier.

If he gets extended, I really really hope its a movable contract in the future and we dont box ourselves in for the next 4 years just because we are desperate.

Anything in the 90-99M range I would be fine with. Anything 100M+ would be less than ideal.

[JonFromVA]

Unless of course he grows ...

Anything is possible, but at some point, you get paid to assess probabilities. There's a cost that accompanies keeping him in the starting unit while you're waiting for growth that may, or may not, materialize. Other starters need to develop and/or grow. At some point, the team needs to run something that's a lot closer to an actual NBA offense than what we've been witness to over the last three years.

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I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

To jbk1234's point, I'd phrase things differently. IMO it's the FO's job to assess talent and it's the development and coaching staff's job to eliminate probabilities and realize that talent. When there are roadblocks or bottlenecks, a decision has to be made if it can be overcome or mitigated.

So, yeah, the obvious example was the Warriors deciding they had to move a very popular player in Monta Ellis in order to give the team to Steph ... but at the time ... Monta had a 28.1 USG% and a 53.6 TS% while Steph was at 24.4% / 59.5% and Steph was slightly higher in assists as well. Monta had a -7.2 On-Off and Steph was at +4.6. And of course their defense was bad. So, the decision was pretty easy. Even if Steph continued to get hurt a lot, you could still argue the W's were better without Monta.

So, by comparison to where Garland and Sexton are at, we have nowhere near the level of evidence to support the decision that we need to move on from Collin to unleash Darius and presumably other players.

From a fan perspective, sure the risks are high, but that's the nature of drafting 19 years olds. You invest all those years, and Collin is still just 22 and 5 years from hitting his prime. Funny to imagine that we could sign him to a 4 year extension, and he'd just be entering his peak as the deal ends. Monta was traded when he was 26. That's basically the same as if we waited until the last year of Collin's second contract to decide what to do with him, not this season.

If Okoro was ready to play SG, we had a SF coming in via the draft, and Garland was clearly ready to ascend ... it would be a lot easier decision.

[LivingLegend]

Anything is possible, but at some point, you get paid to assess probabilities. There's a cost that accompanies keeping him in the starting unit while you're waiting for growth that may, or may not, materialize. Other starters need to develop and/or grow. At some point, the team needs to run something that's a lot closer to an actual NBA offense than what we've been witness to over the last three years.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

To jbk1234's point, I'd phrase things differently. IMO it's the FO's job to assess talent and it's the development and coaching staff's job to eliminate probabilities and realize that talent. When there are roadblocks or bottlenecks, a decision has to be made if it can be overcome or mitigated.

So, yeah, the obvious example was the Warriors deciding they had to move a very popular player in Monta Ellis in order to give the team to Steph ... but at the time ... Monta had a 28.1 USG% and a 53.6 TS% while Steph was at 24.4% / 59.5% and Steph was slightly higher in assists as well. Monta had a -7.2 On-Off and Steph was at +4.6. And of course their defense was bad. So, the decision was pretty easy. Even if Steph continued to get hurt a lot, you could still argue the W's were better without Monta.

So, by comparison to where Garland and Sexton are at, we have nowhere near the level of evidence to support the decision that we need to move on from Collin to unleash Darius and presumably other players.

From a fan perspective, sure the risks are high, but that's the nature of drafting 19 years olds. You invest all those years, and Collin is still just 22 and 5 years from hitting his prime. Funny to imagine that we could sign him to a 4 year extension, and he'd just be entering his peak as the deal ends. Monta was traded when he was 26. That's basically the same as if we waited until the last year of Collin's second contract to decide what to do with him, not this season.

If Okoro was ready to play SG, we had a SF coming in via the draft, and Garland was clearly ready to ascend ... it would be a lot easier decision.

But again it goes back to my point of addition by subtraction. We might never really know the ceiling of Garland/Okoro if Sexton is sitting there pounding the air out of the ball. The only way you might truely know what you have with Garland/Okoro is if Sexton is out of the picture and give them the full reigns and allow them to play wide open and not off of Sexton.

I would say if the Cavs are on their way to another 20 win season by Jan-Feb you make that Sexton trade to shake up the roster and put your other young players in more prominant roles.

I personally dont think we can ever see Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen take that next step if Sexton is still the defacto #1 option and demanding the ball ISOing all over the place. I think the juice would be worth the squeeze if Sexton was traded and allowed the other 5 young guys to play with the ball in their hands more.

Its hard for a guy like Okoro to have a breakout when he is 4th or 5th in line for touches. You have to put him in that situation to be more of a focal point of the offense and not just a garbage man. He cant be a focal point of the offense as long as Sexton is demanding all of the touches.

[Revenged25]

I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

To jbk1234's point, I'd phrase things differently. IMO it's the FO's job to assess talent and it's the development and coaching staff's job to eliminate probabilities and realize that talent. When there are roadblocks or bottlenecks, a decision has to be made if it can be overcome or mitigated.

So, yeah, the obvious example was the Warriors deciding they had to move a very popular player in Monta Ellis in order to give the team to Steph ... but at the time ... Monta had a 28.1 USG% and a 53.6 TS% while Steph was at 24.4% / 59.5% and Steph was slightly higher in assists as well. Monta had a -7.2 On-Off and Steph was at +4.6. And of course their defense was bad. So, the decision was pretty easy. Even if Steph continued to get hurt a lot, you could still argue the W's were better without Monta.

So, by comparison to where Garland and Sexton are at, we have nowhere near the level of evidence to support the decision that we need to move on from Collin to unleash Darius and presumably other players.

From a fan perspective, sure the risks are high, but that's the nature of drafting 19 years olds. You invest all those years, and Collin is still just 22 and 5 years from hitting his prime. Funny to imagine that we could sign him to a 4 year extension, and he'd just be entering his peak as the deal ends. Monta was traded when he was 26. That's basically the same as if we waited until the last year of Collin's second contract to decide what to do with him, not this season.

If Okoro was ready to play SG, we had a SF coming in via the draft, and Garland was clearly ready to ascend ... it would be a lot easier decision.

But again it goes back to my point of addition by subtraction. We might never really know the ceiling of Garland/Okoro if Sexton is sitting there pounding the air out of the ball. The only way you might truely know what you have with Garland/Okoro is if Sexton is out of the picture and give them the full reigns and allow them to play wide open and not off of Sexton.

I would say if the Cavs are on their way to another 20 win season by Jan-Feb you make that Sexton trade to shake up the roster and put your other young players in more prominant roles.

I personally dont think we can ever see Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen take that next step if Sexton is still the defacto #1 option and demanding the ball ISOing all over the place. I think the juice would be worth the squeeze if Sexton was traded and allowed the other 5 young guys to play with the ball in their hands more.

Its hard for a guy like Okoro to have a breakout when he is 4th or 5th in line for touches. You have to put him in that situation to be more of a focal point of the offense and not just a garbage man. He cant be a focal point of the offense as long as Sexton is demanding all of the touches.

Considering Garland and Okoro both play plenty of minutes without Sexton on the floor, if you can't see anything from them because "Sexton is pounding the air out of the ball" which is a little overblown based on this:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612739

then you aren't going to see anything from them period. So sure he probably dribbles excessively on some possessions, same with Garland, but he's not nearly as bad as y'all making it out to be. Just the team normally sends it to him later in the clock so he has to make a quick decision else it's going to be a clock shot violation.

[LivingLegend]

To jbk1234's point, I'd phrase things differently. IMO it's the FO's job to assess talent and it's the development and coaching staff's job to eliminate probabilities and realize that talent. When there are roadblocks or bottlenecks, a decision has to be made if it can be overcome or mitigated.

So, yeah, the obvious example was the Warriors deciding they had to move a very popular player in Monta Ellis in order to give the team to Steph ... but at the time ... Monta had a 28.1 USG% and a 53.6 TS% while Steph was at 24.4% / 59.5% and Steph was slightly higher in assists as well. Monta had a -7.2 On-Off and Steph was at +4.6. And of course their defense was bad. So, the decision was pretty easy. Even if Steph continued to get hurt a lot, you could still argue the W's were better without Monta.

So, by comparison to where Garland and Sexton are at, we have nowhere near the level of evidence to support the decision that we need to move on from Collin to unleash Darius and presumably other players.

From a fan perspective, sure the risks are high, but that's the nature of drafting 19 years olds. You invest all those years, and Collin is still just 22 and 5 years from hitting his prime. Funny to imagine that we could sign him to a 4 year extension, and he'd just be entering his peak as the deal ends. Monta was traded when he was 26. That's basically the same as if we waited until the last year of Collin's second contract to decide what to do with him, not this season.

If Okoro was ready to play SG, we had a SF coming in via the draft, and Garland was clearly ready to ascend ... it would be a lot easier decision.

But again it goes back to my point of addition by subtraction. We might never really know the ceiling of Garland/Okoro if Sexton is sitting there pounding the air out of the ball. The only way you might truely know what you have with Garland/Okoro is if Sexton is out of the picture and give them the full reigns and allow them to play wide open and not off of Sexton.

I would say if the Cavs are on their way to another 20 win season by Jan-Feb you make that Sexton trade to shake up the roster and put your other young players in more prominant roles.

I personally dont think we can ever see Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen take that next step if Sexton is still the defacto #1 option and demanding the ball ISOing all over the place. I think the juice would be worth the squeeze if Sexton was traded and allowed the other 5 young guys to play with the ball in their hands more.

Its hard for a guy like Okoro to have a breakout when he is 4th or 5th in line for touches. You have to put him in that situation to be more of a focal point of the offense and not just a garbage man. He cant be a focal point of the offense as long as Sexton is demanding all of the touches.

Considering Garland and Okoro both play plenty of minutes without Sexton on the floor, if you can't see anything from them because "Sexton is pounding the air out of the ball" which is a little overblown based on this:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612739

then you aren't going to see anything from them period. So sure he probably dribbles excessively on some possessions, same with Garland, but he's not nearly as bad as y'all making it out to be. Just the team normally sends it to him later in the clock so he has to make a quick decision else it's going to be a clock shot violation.

'Pounding the air out of the ball' might be the wrong choice of words, I will just say 'getting touches'. Sexton is the Cavs #1 scoring option and gets a ton of touches when hes on the floor. I would like to know what would happen if his 18 shots per game were given to Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen.

If those other guys got more touches and shot attempts allowing them to be a bigger part of the offense--would they finally take that next step forward? The Cavs invested a TON into their PF/C spots this year--it doesnt make a lot of sense to have those guys all be complementary players in favor of 2 ball dominant undersized guards.

We cant complain about the talent not developing when it seems like the entire offense runs through Sexton when hes getting his 35mins on the floor.

[Revenged25]

But again it goes back to my point of addition by subtraction. We might never really know the ceiling of Garland/Okoro if Sexton is sitting there pounding the air out of the ball. The only way you might truely know what you have with Garland/Okoro is if Sexton is out of the picture and give them the full reigns and allow them to play wide open and not off of Sexton.

I would say if the Cavs are on their way to another 20 win season by Jan-Feb you make that Sexton trade to shake up the roster and put your other young players in more prominant roles.

I personally dont think we can ever see Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen take that next step if Sexton is still the defacto #1 option and demanding the ball ISOing all over the place. I think the juice would be worth the squeeze if Sexton was traded and allowed the other 5 young guys to play with the ball in their hands more.

Its hard for a guy like Okoro to have a breakout when he is 4th or 5th in line for touches. You have to put him in that situation to be more of a focal point of the offense and not just a garbage man. He cant be a focal point of the offense as long as Sexton is demanding all of the touches.

Considering Garland and Okoro both play plenty of minutes without Sexton on the floor, if you can't see anything from them because "Sexton is pounding the air out of the ball" which is a little overblown based on this:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612739

then you aren't going to see anything from them period. So sure he probably dribbles excessively on some possessions, same with Garland, but he's not nearly as bad as y'all making it out to be. Just the team normally sends it to him later in the clock so he has to make a quick decision else it's going to be a clock shot violation.

'Pounding the air out of the ball' might be the wrong choice of words, I will just say 'getting touches'. Sexton is the Cavs #1 scoring option and gets a ton of touches when hes on the floor. I would like to know what would happen if his 18 shots per game were given to Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen.

If those other guys got more touches and shot attempts allowing them to be a bigger part of the offense--would they finally take that next step forward? The Cavs invested a TON into their PF/C spots this year--it doesnt make a lot of sense to have those guys all be complementary players in favor of 2 ball dominant undersized guards.

We cant complain about the talent not developing when it seems like the entire offense runs through Sexton when hes getting his 35mins on the floor.

Unless you are arguing that those guys need more shots to "get hot" because they're slow starters then sure, but outside of that why should they get those shots that Sexton took when none of them have proven to be better options than Sexton? Look at all the advanced stats for scoring and Sexton is better than pretty much everyone else in nearly every category. Sure there might be one or two where he falls behind one other person, but he's 99% of the time the best option to take a shot with Garland second.

I mean should the Suns stop letting Booker take 18+ attempts a game so they can see what Bridges can do with more shots? No, because Booker is their best scorer. If Sexton was inefficient with his shooting, or even just league average for a SG, which he is a bit above as the league average TS% for SGs is 55.9% and Sextons TS was 57.3% which was higher than Donovan Mitchell even. I think Sexton will end up taking the same number of shots this year, but I think the Cavs as a whole will be able to take more shots this year due to actually getting rebounds.

[JonFromVA]

I just hope this coaching staff recognizes this is the last chance to make some of these rosters work and dont be afraid to pull the plug early in the season. If Sexton continues to be the same old player he always been and the Cavs are losing a ton of games, put him as the 6th man by January 1.

To jbk1234's point, I'd phrase things differently. IMO it's the FO's job to assess talent and it's the development and coaching staff's job to eliminate probabilities and realize that talent. When there are roadblocks or bottlenecks, a decision has to be made if it can be overcome or mitigated.

So, yeah, the obvious example was the Warriors deciding they had to move a very popular player in Monta Ellis in order to give the team to Steph ... but at the time ... Monta had a 28.1 USG% and a 53.6 TS% while Steph was at 24.4% / 59.5% and Steph was slightly higher in assists as well. Monta had a -7.2 On-Off and Steph was at +4.6. And of course their defense was bad. So, the decision was pretty easy. Even if Steph continued to get hurt a lot, you could still argue the W's were better without Monta.

So, by comparison to where Garland and Sexton are at, we have nowhere near the level of evidence to support the decision that we need to move on from Collin to unleash Darius and presumably other players.

From a fan perspective, sure the risks are high, but that's the nature of drafting 19 years olds. You invest all those years, and Collin is still just 22 and 5 years from hitting his prime. Funny to imagine that we could sign him to a 4 year extension, and he'd just be entering his peak as the deal ends. Monta was traded when he was 26. That's basically the same as if we waited until the last year of Collin's second contract to decide what to do with him, not this season.

If Okoro was ready to play SG, we had a SF coming in via the draft, and Garland was clearly ready to ascend ... it would be a lot easier decision.

But again it goes back to my point of addition by subtraction. We might never really know the ceiling of Garland/Okoro if Sexton is sitting there pounding the air out of the ball. The only way you might truely know what you have with Garland/Okoro is if Sexton is out of the picture and give them the full reigns and allow them to play wide open and not off of Sexton.

I would say if the Cavs are on their way to another 20 win season by Jan-Feb you make that Sexton trade to shake up the roster and put your other young players in more prominant roles.

I personally dont think we can ever see Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen take that next step if Sexton is still the defacto #1 option and demanding the ball ISOing all over the place. I think the juice would be worth the squeeze if Sexton was traded and allowed the other 5 young guys to play with the ball in their hands more.

Its hard for a guy like Okoro to have a breakout when he is 4th or 5th in line for touches. You have to put him in that situation to be more of a focal point of the offense and not just a garbage man. He cant be a focal point of the offense as long as Sexton is demanding all of the touches.

The lineup data will tell the story as long we can can collect some useful data that isn't bogged down with 19 year old rookies, non-shooters, and g-league players; but IMO Isaac is a long way from becoming the focal point of an offense. He doesn't handle the ball well enough to try to force feed him and just has to keep expanding his game year after year.

So, we can just let him run some P&R in bench groups and see if he can muscle some reserves on the other team around.

Let's say for instance that Isaac is on the Jimmy Butler track ... well, Jimmy wasn't even putting up Sexton-like numbers until he was 26, but he was finding ways to make the team better when he was on the floor from the time he was a 22 year old rookie. That's all I want from Isaac in the short-term... take some steps, work on that shooting, and make a positive contribution when he's on the floor.

You're going to hear me say this a lot, but we're on Evan Mobley's timeline now. We need to have our roster in order by the time he's ready to take the step to becoming a franchise player. That may very well be 3 years down the line, could be longer.

If you told me Evan wasn't going to develop as a long as Collin is on the team, I'd encourage the Cavs to cut him; but short of something like that ... we've got time.

[JonFromVA]

To jbk1234's point, I'd phrase things differently. IMO it's the FO's job to assess talent and it's the development and coaching staff's job to eliminate probabilities and realize that talent. When there are roadblocks or bottlenecks, a decision has to be made if it can be overcome or mitigated.

So, yeah, the obvious example was the Warriors deciding they had to move a very popular player in Monta Ellis in order to give the team to Steph ... but at the time ... Monta had a 28.1 USG% and a 53.6 TS% while Steph was at 24.4% / 59.5% and Steph was slightly higher in assists as well. Monta had a -7.2 On-Off and Steph was at +4.6. And of course their defense was bad. So, the decision was pretty easy. Even if Steph continued to get hurt a lot, you could still argue the W's were better without Monta.

So, by comparison to where Garland and Sexton are at, we have nowhere near the level of evidence to support the decision that we need to move on from Collin to unleash Darius and presumably other players.

From a fan perspective, sure the risks are high, but that's the nature of drafting 19 years olds. You invest all those years, and Collin is still just 22 and 5 years from hitting his prime. Funny to imagine that we could sign him to a 4 year extension, and he'd just be entering his peak as the deal ends. Monta was traded when he was 26. That's basically the same as if we waited until the last year of Collin's second contract to decide what to do with him, not this season.

If Okoro was ready to play SG, we had a SF coming in via the draft, and Garland was clearly ready to ascend ... it would be a lot easier decision.

But again it goes back to my point of addition by subtraction. We might never really know the ceiling of Garland/Okoro if Sexton is sitting there pounding the air out of the ball. The only way you might truely know what you have with Garland/Okoro is if Sexton is out of the picture and give them the full reigns and allow them to play wide open and not off of Sexton.

I would say if the Cavs are on their way to another 20 win season by Jan-Feb you make that Sexton trade to shake up the roster and put your other young players in more prominant roles.

I personally dont think we can ever see Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen take that next step if Sexton is still the defacto #1 option and demanding the ball ISOing all over the place. I think the juice would be worth the squeeze if Sexton was traded and allowed the other 5 young guys to play with the ball in their hands more.

Its hard for a guy like Okoro to have a breakout when he is 4th or 5th in line for touches. You have to put him in that situation to be more of a focal point of the offense and not just a garbage man. He cant be a focal point of the offense as long as Sexton is demanding all of the touches.

Considering Garland and Okoro both play plenty of minutes without Sexton on the floor, if you can't see anything from them because "Sexton is pounding the air out of the ball" which is a little overblown based on this:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612739

then you aren't going to see anything from them period. So sure he probably dribbles excessively on some possessions, same with Garland, but he's not nearly as bad as y'all making it out to be. Just the team normally sends it to him later in the clock so he has to make a quick decision else it's going to be a clock shot violation.

All Collin has to do is make quicker decisions when the ball swings to him, and everyone will be a lot happier with him.

Easier said than done, I guess? Still, it's not rocket science.