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2021-22 regular season thread

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LivingLegend
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#861 » by LivingLegend » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:42 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Considering Garland and Okoro both play plenty of minutes without Sexton on the floor, if you can't see anything from them because "Sexton is pounding the air out of the ball" which is a little overblown based on this:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612739

then you aren't going to see anything from them period. So sure he probably dribbles excessively on some possessions, same with Garland, but he's not nearly as bad as y'all making it out to be. Just the team normally sends it to him later in the clock so he has to make a quick decision else it's going to be a clock shot violation.


'Pounding the air out of the ball' might be the wrong choice of words, I will just say 'getting touches'. Sexton is the Cavs #1 scoring option and gets a ton of touches when hes on the floor. I would like to know what would happen if his 18 shots per game were given to Garland/Okoro/Lauri/Mobley/Allen.

If those other guys got more touches and shot attempts allowing them to be a bigger part of the offense--would they finally take that next step forward? The Cavs invested a TON into their PF/C spots this year--it doesnt make a lot of sense to have those guys all be complementary players in favor of 2 ball dominant undersized guards.

We cant complain about the talent not developing when it seems like the entire offense runs through Sexton when hes getting his 35mins on the floor.


Unless you are arguing that those guys need more shots to "get hot" because they're slow starters then sure, but outside of that why should they get those shots that Sexton took when none of them have proven to be better options than Sexton? Look at all the advanced stats for scoring and Sexton is better than pretty much everyone else in nearly every category. Sure there might be one or two where he falls behind one other person, but he's 99% of the time the best option to take a shot with Garland second.

I mean should the Suns stop letting Booker take 18+ attempts a game so they can see what Bridges can do with more shots? No, because Booker is their best scorer. If Sexton was inefficient with his shooting, or even just league average for a SG, which he is a bit above as the league average TS% for SGs is 55.9% and Sextons TS was 57.3% which was higher than Donovan Mitchell even. I think Sexton will end up taking the same number of shots this year, but I think the Cavs as a whole will be able to take more shots this year due to actually getting rebounds.


Because we paid 100M to Allen, Drafted Mobley #3 overall, Drafted Okoro #5 overall and traded Nance + Paid Markkenan 67M. We have dumped a lot of money and assets into those guys. It would be nice to see what they can actually do with eachother and getting more touches to make a impact on the game instead of it being the Collin Sexton+Darius Garland show 24/7 while everyone else stand around setting screens and getting rebounds.

We do know Sexton can do. We've seen it. We know what a Collin Sexton as your #1 option 18 shot attempts per game looks like---and the Cavs lose a ton and a bunch of other guys stand around doing nothing all game. Its hard to expect all of these other 21-24 year old guys to 'take the next step' when they are asked to do nothing but set screen+rolls for Sexton and Garland and get maybe 8 shot attempts per game.

I would like to use Mobley on the elbow much like how Denver uses Jokic, but that requires getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to throw it into Allen on the block and let him go to work with his back to the basket more instead of exclusively being a lob threat, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to have Okoro initiate the offense more and attack the rim off screens 8-10x per game, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like Lauri to be a focal point because he is such a mismatch on offense with his skillset, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands.

In order for any of these guys to earn the massive money we paid them, or live up to the high high draft pick we spent on them---we have to give them the opportunities and Sexton demanding the ball the majority of the time on the court takes away from opportunities these other guys can have to grow their own games.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#862 » by Revenged25 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:59 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Unless you are arguing that those guys need more shots to "get hot" because they're slow starters then sure, but outside of that why should they get those shots that Sexton took when none of them have proven to be better options than Sexton? Look at all the advanced stats for scoring and Sexton is better than pretty much everyone else in nearly every category. Sure there might be one or two where he falls behind one other person, but he's 99% of the time the best option to take a shot with Garland second.

I mean should the Suns stop letting Booker take 18+ attempts a game so they can see what Bridges can do with more shots? No, because Booker is their best scorer. If Sexton was inefficient with his shooting, or even just league average for a SG, which he is a bit above as the league average TS% for SGs is 55.9% and Sextons TS was 57.3% which was higher than Donovan Mitchell even. I think Sexton will end up taking the same number of shots this year, but I think the Cavs as a whole will be able to take more shots this year due to actually getting rebounds.


Because we paid 100M to Allen, Drafted Mobley #3 overall, Drafted Okoro #5 overall and traded Nance + Paid Markkenan 67M. We have dumped a lot of money and assets into those guys. It would be nice to see what they can actually do with eachother and getting more touches to make a impact on the game instead of it being the Collin Sexton+Darius Garland show 24/7 while everyone else stand around setting screens and getting rebounds.

We do know Sexton can do. We've seen it. We know what a Collin Sexton as your #1 option 18 shot attempts per game looks like---and the Cavs lose a ton and a bunch of other guys stand around doing nothing all game. Its hard to expect all of these other 21-24 year old guys to 'take the next step' when they are asked to do nothing but set screen+rolls for Sexton and Garland and get maybe 8 shot attempts per game.

I would like to use Mobley on the elbow much like how Denver uses Jokic, but that requires getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to throw it into Allen on the block and let him go to work with his back to the basket more instead of exclusively being a lob threat, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to have Okoro initiate the offense more and attack the rim off screens 8-10x per game, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like Lauri to be a focal point because he is such a mismatch on offense with his skillset, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands.

In order for any of these guys to earn the massive money we paid them, or live up to the high high draft pick we spent on them---we have to give them the opportunities and Sexton demanding the ball the majority of the time on the court takes away from opportunities these other guys can have to grow their own games.


We didn't pay Allen $100M to be a high scoring center, we paid him $100M to become an elite rim protector, rebounder, and a low usage scorer on lobs, PNR, and the occasional toss into the paint.

We drafted Mobley #3 overall, sure and he's going to be a defensive presence and probably still end up with about 14 shots a game with Sexton taking 18.

Okoro was drafted #5 overall, but not for his offense but for him to be a defensive stopper with some scoring in transition and the hope his offensive game improves, especially with a 3pt shot.

We traded for Lauri because Nance wanted to be on a team that's more likely to compete and we needed a reliable 3pt shooter since Love is never available. Also paying him $67 mil is just the going rate for a high quality 3pt shooter that doesn't do anything else, even Bertrans got a deal like that.

Using the shot totals from Utah actually would make a lot of sense for how the Cavs should be looking to do things though with some adjustments.

#1 Mitchell at 20.6 FGA
#2 Clarkson at 15.8 FGA
#3 Bojan at 12.8 FGA
#4 Conley at 12.5 FGA
#5 Ingles at 8.4
#6 Rudy at 8.2
everyone else 5.6 or less.

So for the Cavs:
#1 Sexton at 18.6 FGA
#2 Garland at 16.8 FGA
#3 Mobley at 13.8 FGA
#4 Lauri at 11 FGA
#5 Okoro at 9.9 FGA
#6 Allen at 8.2 FGA
Eeryone else 5.6 or less.

We shouldn't have players that can't shoot, taking the shots more than a few a game in their prime positions.

Also all we've seen from the Cavs with Sexton leading them is a bad team with bad rotations and no one healthy being bad. The same thing the Suns saw with Devin Booker leading the Suns in attempts and scoring until they put a legit team onto the floor.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#863 » by LivingLegend » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:19 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Unless you are arguing that those guys need more shots to "get hot" because they're slow starters then sure, but outside of that why should they get those shots that Sexton took when none of them have proven to be better options than Sexton? Look at all the advanced stats for scoring and Sexton is better than pretty much everyone else in nearly every category. Sure there might be one or two where he falls behind one other person, but he's 99% of the time the best option to take a shot with Garland second.

I mean should the Suns stop letting Booker take 18+ attempts a game so they can see what Bridges can do with more shots? No, because Booker is their best scorer. If Sexton was inefficient with his shooting, or even just league average for a SG, which he is a bit above as the league average TS% for SGs is 55.9% and Sextons TS was 57.3% which was higher than Donovan Mitchell even. I think Sexton will end up taking the same number of shots this year, but I think the Cavs as a whole will be able to take more shots this year due to actually getting rebounds.


Because we paid 100M to Allen, Drafted Mobley #3 overall, Drafted Okoro #5 overall and traded Nance + Paid Markkenan 67M. We have dumped a lot of money and assets into those guys. It would be nice to see what they can actually do with eachother and getting more touches to make a impact on the game instead of it being the Collin Sexton+Darius Garland show 24/7 while everyone else stand around setting screens and getting rebounds.

We do know Sexton can do. We've seen it. We know what a Collin Sexton as your #1 option 18 shot attempts per game looks like---and the Cavs lose a ton and a bunch of other guys stand around doing nothing all game. Its hard to expect all of these other 21-24 year old guys to 'take the next step' when they are asked to do nothing but set screen+rolls for Sexton and Garland and get maybe 8 shot attempts per game.

I would like to use Mobley on the elbow much like how Denver uses Jokic, but that requires getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to throw it into Allen on the block and let him go to work with his back to the basket more instead of exclusively being a lob threat, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to have Okoro initiate the offense more and attack the rim off screens 8-10x per game, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like Lauri to be a focal point because he is such a mismatch on offense with his skillset, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands.

In order for any of these guys to earn the massive money we paid them, or live up to the high high draft pick we spent on them---we have to give them the opportunities and Sexton demanding the ball the majority of the time on the court takes away from opportunities these other guys can have to grow their own games.


We didn't pay Allen $100M to be a high scoring center, we paid him $100M to become an elite rim protector, rebounder, and a low usage scorer on lobs, PNR, and the occasional toss into the paint.

We drafted Mobley #3 overall, sure and he's going to be a defensive presence and probably still end up with about 14 shots a game with Sexton taking 18.

Okoro was drafted #5 overall, but not for his offense but for him to be a defensive stopper with some scoring in transition and the hope his offensive game improves, especially with a 3pt shot.

We traded for Lauri because Nance wanted to be on a team that's more likely to compete and we needed a reliable 3pt shooter since Love is never available. Also paying him $67 mil is just the going rate for a high quality 3pt shooter that doesn't do anything else, even Bertrans got a deal like that.

Using the shot totals from Utah actually would make a lot of sense for how the Cavs should be looking to do things though with some adjustments.

#1 Mitchell at 20.6 FGA
#2 Clarkson at 15.8 FGA
#3 Bojan at 12.8 FGA
#4 Conley at 12.5 FGA
#5 Ingles at 8.4
#6 Rudy at 8.2
everyone else 5.6 or less.

So for the Cavs:
#1 Sexton at 18.6 FGA
#2 Garland at 16.8 FGA
#3 Mobley at 13.8 FGA
#4 Lauri at 11 FGA
#5 Okoro at 9.9 FGA
#6 Allen at 8.2 FGA
Eeryone else 5.6 or less.

We shouldn't have players that can't shoot, taking the shots more than a few a game in their prime positions.

Also all we've seen from the Cavs with Sexton leading them is a bad team with bad rotations and no one healthy being bad. The same thing the Suns saw with Devin Booker leading the Suns in attempts and scoring until they put a legit team onto the floor.


We really need to stop comparing Collin Sexton to Devin Booker just because raw numbers suggest they are similar. Booker is one of the best off the dribble shooters in the NBA and can score in extremely high volume from anywhere on the court. Sexton still has a major problem forcing his shot on drives and still cant shoot off the dribble.

I also dont agree with 'if you cant shoot, you dont get the ball'. There are plenty of really really good players in the NBA who dont shoot particularly well but still dominate. Jimmy Butler being one and he is the #1 option on a top 10 team in the NBA. I think Okoro has the skill to be like that one day but he needs to ball in his hands more to become comfortable and find his game. Taking the ball out of his hands because hes not a great distance shooter doesnt help him take steps forward.

I would much rather see Sexton go from 18 APG to 14 APG and Okoro go from 8 APG to 12 APG. I feel much better with Okoro slashing and driving the ball to the rim 10x per game than I do Sexton.

Sexton needs to be more of a complimentary scorer, not the guy your entire offense runs through touching the ball every single time down court.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#864 » by JonFromVA » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:56 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Because we paid 100M to Allen, Drafted Mobley #3 overall, Drafted Okoro #5 overall and traded Nance + Paid Markkenan 67M. We have dumped a lot of money and assets into those guys. It would be nice to see what they can actually do with eachother and getting more touches to make a impact on the game instead of it being the Collin Sexton+Darius Garland show 24/7 while everyone else stand around setting screens and getting rebounds.

We do know Sexton can do. We've seen it. We know what a Collin Sexton as your #1 option 18 shot attempts per game looks like---and the Cavs lose a ton and a bunch of other guys stand around doing nothing all game. Its hard to expect all of these other 21-24 year old guys to 'take the next step' when they are asked to do nothing but set screen+rolls for Sexton and Garland and get maybe 8 shot attempts per game.

I would like to use Mobley on the elbow much like how Denver uses Jokic, but that requires getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to throw it into Allen on the block and let him go to work with his back to the basket more instead of exclusively being a lob threat, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like to have Okoro initiate the offense more and attack the rim off screens 8-10x per game, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands. I would like Lauri to be a focal point because he is such a mismatch on offense with his skillset, but that would require getting the ball out of Sextons hands.

In order for any of these guys to earn the massive money we paid them, or live up to the high high draft pick we spent on them---we have to give them the opportunities and Sexton demanding the ball the majority of the time on the court takes away from opportunities these other guys can have to grow their own games.


We didn't pay Allen $100M to be a high scoring center, we paid him $100M to become an elite rim protector, rebounder, and a low usage scorer on lobs, PNR, and the occasional toss into the paint.

We drafted Mobley #3 overall, sure and he's going to be a defensive presence and probably still end up with about 14 shots a game with Sexton taking 18.

Okoro was drafted #5 overall, but not for his offense but for him to be a defensive stopper with some scoring in transition and the hope his offensive game improves, especially with a 3pt shot.

We traded for Lauri because Nance wanted to be on a team that's more likely to compete and we needed a reliable 3pt shooter since Love is never available. Also paying him $67 mil is just the going rate for a high quality 3pt shooter that doesn't do anything else, even Bertrans got a deal like that.

Using the shot totals from Utah actually would make a lot of sense for how the Cavs should be looking to do things though with some adjustments.

#1 Mitchell at 20.6 FGA
#2 Clarkson at 15.8 FGA
#3 Bojan at 12.8 FGA
#4 Conley at 12.5 FGA
#5 Ingles at 8.4
#6 Rudy at 8.2
everyone else 5.6 or less.

So for the Cavs:
#1 Sexton at 18.6 FGA
#2 Garland at 16.8 FGA
#3 Mobley at 13.8 FGA
#4 Lauri at 11 FGA
#5 Okoro at 9.9 FGA
#6 Allen at 8.2 FGA
Eeryone else 5.6 or less.

We shouldn't have players that can't shoot, taking the shots more than a few a game in their prime positions.

Also all we've seen from the Cavs with Sexton leading them is a bad team with bad rotations and no one healthy being bad. The same thing the Suns saw with Devin Booker leading the Suns in attempts and scoring until they put a legit team onto the floor.


We really need to stop comparing Collin Sexton to Devin Booker just because raw numbers suggest they are similar. Booker is one of the best off the dribble shooters in the NBA and can score in extremely high volume from anywhere on the court. Sexton still has a major problem forcing his shot on drives and still cant shoot off the dribble.

I also dont agree with 'if you cant shoot, you dont get the ball'. There are plenty of really really good players in the NBA who dont shoot particularly well but still dominate. Jimmy Butler being one and he is the #1 option on a top 10 team in the NBA. I think Okoro has the skill to be like that one day but he needs to ball in his hands more to become comfortable and find his game. Taking the ball out of his hands because hes not a great distance shooter doesnt help him take steps forward.

I would much rather see Sexton go from 18 APG to 14 APG and Okoro go from 8 APG to 12 APG. I feel much better with Okoro slashing and driving the ball to the rim 10x per game than I do Sexton.

Sexton needs to be more of a complimentary scorer, not the guy your entire offense runs through touching the ball every single time down court.


Collin may not score like Booker, but he has his own "super-power" ... his speed, and I'm all for strong slashers like Isaac and our other wings/bigs driving to the rim and scoring 2's at a high rate but everything starts with creating that opening in the defense and moving some of the opposing players away from the rim.

So, it's pretty simple to me:

1) Can we get more out of Collin? Will he contribute to a functional offense?

2) If not, do we have an alternative that doesn't just move the ball better, but actually generates offense at an NBA level?

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love was like our only top 15 lineup last year that actually generated offense at a high level and didn't give it all back on the defensive end. They played a grand total of 59.6 minutes. The rest is a lot of meh. We simply can't make decisions based on 60 minutes of ball beyond obvious things like dang ... look what happens when we only have one bad shooter on the floor.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#865 » by JonFromVA » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:58 pm

btw, I do believe the deadline for Collin to sign an extension was 6pm ... and I'm hearing *crickets*
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#866 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:49 am

JonFromVA wrote:btw, I do believe the deadline for Collin to sign an extension was 6pm ... and I'm hearing *crickets*


It was, they couldn't come to an agreement. Going to RFA status. Which is what I expected the Cavs to do anyways, but figured if they were going to extend him the max they would've given him at this point would've been Rozier's contract which was like 25 mil AAV
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#867 » by LivingLegend » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:51 am

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
We didn't pay Allen $100M to be a high scoring center, we paid him $100M to become an elite rim protector, rebounder, and a low usage scorer on lobs, PNR, and the occasional toss into the paint.

We drafted Mobley #3 overall, sure and he's going to be a defensive presence and probably still end up with about 14 shots a game with Sexton taking 18.

Okoro was drafted #5 overall, but not for his offense but for him to be a defensive stopper with some scoring in transition and the hope his offensive game improves, especially with a 3pt shot.

We traded for Lauri because Nance wanted to be on a team that's more likely to compete and we needed a reliable 3pt shooter since Love is never available. Also paying him $67 mil is just the going rate for a high quality 3pt shooter that doesn't do anything else, even Bertrans got a deal like that.

Using the shot totals from Utah actually would make a lot of sense for how the Cavs should be looking to do things though with some adjustments.

#1 Mitchell at 20.6 FGA
#2 Clarkson at 15.8 FGA
#3 Bojan at 12.8 FGA
#4 Conley at 12.5 FGA
#5 Ingles at 8.4
#6 Rudy at 8.2
everyone else 5.6 or less.

So for the Cavs:
#1 Sexton at 18.6 FGA
#2 Garland at 16.8 FGA
#3 Mobley at 13.8 FGA
#4 Lauri at 11 FGA
#5 Okoro at 9.9 FGA
#6 Allen at 8.2 FGA
Eeryone else 5.6 or less.

We shouldn't have players that can't shoot, taking the shots more than a few a game in their prime positions.

Also all we've seen from the Cavs with Sexton leading them is a bad team with bad rotations and no one healthy being bad. The same thing the Suns saw with Devin Booker leading the Suns in attempts and scoring until they put a legit team onto the floor.


We really need to stop comparing Collin Sexton to Devin Booker just because raw numbers suggest they are similar. Booker is one of the best off the dribble shooters in the NBA and can score in extremely high volume from anywhere on the court. Sexton still has a major problem forcing his shot on drives and still cant shoot off the dribble.

I also dont agree with 'if you cant shoot, you dont get the ball'. There are plenty of really really good players in the NBA who dont shoot particularly well but still dominate. Jimmy Butler being one and he is the #1 option on a top 10 team in the NBA. I think Okoro has the skill to be like that one day but he needs to ball in his hands more to become comfortable and find his game. Taking the ball out of his hands because hes not a great distance shooter doesnt help him take steps forward.

I would much rather see Sexton go from 18 APG to 14 APG and Okoro go from 8 APG to 12 APG. I feel much better with Okoro slashing and driving the ball to the rim 10x per game than I do Sexton.

Sexton needs to be more of a complimentary scorer, not the guy your entire offense runs through touching the ball every single time down court.


Collin may not score like Booker, but he has his own "super-power" ... his speed, and I'm all for strong slashers like Isaac and our other wings/bigs driving to the rim and scoring 2's at a high rate but everything starts with creating that opening in the defense and moving some of the opposing players away from the rim.

So, it's pretty simple to me:

1) Can we get more out of Collin? Will he contribute to a functional offense?

2) If not, do we have an alternative that doesn't just move the ball better, but actually generates offense at an NBA level?

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love was like our only top 15 lineup last year that actually generated offense at a high level and didn't give it all back on the defensive end. They played a grand total of 59.6 minutes. The rest is a lot of meh. We simply can't make decisions based on 60 minutes of ball beyond obvious things like dang ... look what happens when we only have one bad shooter on the floor.


I mean his speed really doesnt matter when he still gets blocked at the rim more than any other player in the NBA. Sure he can get around guys but he is still not great at finishing and I would argue Okoro is already a better finisher at the rim than Sexton. He can finish through contact b/c of his size and strength--Sexton cant.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#868 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:12 am

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
We really need to stop comparing Collin Sexton to Devin Booker just because raw numbers suggest they are similar. Booker is one of the best off the dribble shooters in the NBA and can score in extremely high volume from anywhere on the court. Sexton still has a major problem forcing his shot on drives and still cant shoot off the dribble.

I also dont agree with 'if you cant shoot, you dont get the ball'. There are plenty of really really good players in the NBA who dont shoot particularly well but still dominate. Jimmy Butler being one and he is the #1 option on a top 10 team in the NBA. I think Okoro has the skill to be like that one day but he needs to ball in his hands more to become comfortable and find his game. Taking the ball out of his hands because hes not a great distance shooter doesnt help him take steps forward.

I would much rather see Sexton go from 18 APG to 14 APG and Okoro go from 8 APG to 12 APG. I feel much better with Okoro slashing and driving the ball to the rim 10x per game than I do Sexton.

Sexton needs to be more of a complimentary scorer, not the guy your entire offense runs through touching the ball every single time down court.


Collin may not score like Booker, but he has his own "super-power" ... his speed, and I'm all for strong slashers like Isaac and our other wings/bigs driving to the rim and scoring 2's at a high rate but everything starts with creating that opening in the defense and moving some of the opposing players away from the rim.

So, it's pretty simple to me:

1) Can we get more out of Collin? Will he contribute to a functional offense?

2) If not, do we have an alternative that doesn't just move the ball better, but actually generates offense at an NBA level?

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love was like our only top 15 lineup last year that actually generated offense at a high level and didn't give it all back on the defensive end. They played a grand total of 59.6 minutes. The rest is a lot of meh. We simply can't make decisions based on 60 minutes of ball beyond obvious things like dang ... look what happens when we only have one bad shooter on the floor.


I mean his speed really doesnt matter when he still gets blocked at the rim more than any other player in the NBA. Sure he can get around guys but he is still not great at finishing and I would argue Okoro is already a better finisher at the rim than Sexton. He can finish through contact b/c of his size and strength--Sexton cant.


You'd be wrong.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVE_FG_PCT&dir=1

Sexton averaged 47.3% on drives, Okoro only 43.8%. In basically every stat Collin dominates him. Seriously just because someone is bigger doesn't mean they are better.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#869 » by LivingLegend » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:13 am

Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Collin may not score like Booker, but he has his own "super-power" ... his speed, and I'm all for strong slashers like Isaac and our other wings/bigs driving to the rim and scoring 2's at a high rate but everything starts with creating that opening in the defense and moving some of the opposing players away from the rim.

So, it's pretty simple to me:

1) Can we get more out of Collin? Will he contribute to a functional offense?

2) If not, do we have an alternative that doesn't just move the ball better, but actually generates offense at an NBA level?

Sexton-Garland-Okoro-Wade-Love was like our only top 15 lineup last year that actually generated offense at a high level and didn't give it all back on the defensive end. They played a grand total of 59.6 minutes. The rest is a lot of meh. We simply can't make decisions based on 60 minutes of ball beyond obvious things like dang ... look what happens when we only have one bad shooter on the floor.


I mean his speed really doesnt matter when he still gets blocked at the rim more than any other player in the NBA. Sure he can get around guys but he is still not great at finishing and I would argue Okoro is already a better finisher at the rim than Sexton. He can finish through contact b/c of his size and strength--Sexton cant.


You'd be wrong.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVE_FG_PCT&dir=1

Sexton averaged 47.3% on drives, Okoro only 43.8%. In basically every stat Collin dominates him. Seriously just because someone is bigger doesn't mean they are better.


I would believe that going into his second season, Okoro will develop into a better finisher at the rim than Sexton than he was his rookie season. He showed a ton of ability his rookie year and I just watched him highlight reel dunk on peoples heads 100x in summer league. Take 3-4 of Sextons shot attempts per game and give them to some other guys.

Having him be the lead option taking 18 attempts per game is going to get the Cavs to another 25 win season. Now that they have more horses, they need to become more dynamic. They cant run the offense like it was the last 3 years.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#870 » by jbk1234 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:46 am

I'm relieved. You start seeing what guys like Huerter signed for, and the Sexton ask seems nuts.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#871 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:03 am

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I mean his speed really doesnt matter when he still gets blocked at the rim more than any other player in the NBA. Sure he can get around guys but he is still not great at finishing and I would argue Okoro is already a better finisher at the rim than Sexton. He can finish through contact b/c of his size and strength--Sexton cant.


You'd be wrong.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVE_FG_PCT&dir=1

Sexton averaged 47.3% on drives, Okoro only 43.8%. In basically every stat Collin dominates him. Seriously just because someone is bigger doesn't mean they are better.


I would believe that going into his second season, Okoro will develop into a better finisher at the rim than Sexton than he was his rookie season. He showed a ton of ability his rookie year and I just watched him highlight reel dunk on peoples heads 100x in summer league. Take 3-4 of Sextons shot attempts per game and give them to some other guys.

Having him be the lead option taking 18 attempts per game is going to get the Cavs to another 25 win season. Now that they have more horses, they need to become more dynamic. They cant run the offense like it was the last 3 years.


They can't, but running a better offense that's not reliant on Sexton to be the only reliable scorer, because even last year Sexton still was, then it means it'll be easier for Sexton to score which means his efficiency will rise.

The problem is that the Cavs have had only 2 legit scoring options for 90% of their seasons in Sexton and then a rotation of Garland, Drummond, Love depending on who might be healthy during that part of the season. If Sexton had a viable secondary option, could you imagine what his current attempts would've yielded? When you surround an elite scorer with subpar players/scoring options, they produce for themselves, but the team suffers. Devin Booker suffered through it, Donovan Mitchell lucked into a great situation, Beal started off as a secondary option but dominated but had no team success when the rest of the team sucked, Lavine has put up good seasons but lack of talent meant no one else could help them, etc.

Heck even LeBron took what 3 years to hit the playoffs, and LeBron is in the conversation with being the GOAT, so thinking less than that level of talent would get them tehre is crazy.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#872 » by toooskies » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:18 am

Yay, 9 more months of Sexton trade rumors
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#873 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:27 am

toooskies wrote:Yay, 9 more months of Sexton trade rumors


Don't worry once Sexton is traded we'll trade Garland and Okoro to finally build around our first real franchise player, outside of Sexton, hopefully and have a team ripe to take advantage of his unique skills. I expect Mobley to not be maxed and to be traded to the Lakers for a 2026 1st round pick.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#874 » by jbk1234 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:13 pm

toooskies wrote:Yay, 9 more months of Sexton trade rumors


I wouldn't assume it will be that long.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#875 » by toooskies » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:40 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Yay, 9 more months of Sexton trade rumors


I wouldn't assume it will be that long.

Well, it was under the assumption that he's part of the core that we want to keep long-term. Because, you know, that's all either side ever says about the situation.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#876 » by LivingLegend » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:18 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
You'd be wrong.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVE_FG_PCT&dir=1

Sexton averaged 47.3% on drives, Okoro only 43.8%. In basically every stat Collin dominates him. Seriously just because someone is bigger doesn't mean they are better.


I would believe that going into his second season, Okoro will develop into a better finisher at the rim than Sexton than he was his rookie season. He showed a ton of ability his rookie year and I just watched him highlight reel dunk on peoples heads 100x in summer league. Take 3-4 of Sextons shot attempts per game and give them to some other guys.

Having him be the lead option taking 18 attempts per game is going to get the Cavs to another 25 win season. Now that they have more horses, they need to become more dynamic. They cant run the offense like it was the last 3 years.


They can't, but running a better offense that's not reliant on Sexton to be the only reliable scorer, because even last year Sexton still was, then it means it'll be easier for Sexton to score which means his efficiency will rise.

The problem is that the Cavs have had only 2 legit scoring options for 90% of their seasons in Sexton and then a rotation of Garland, Drummond, Love depending on who might be healthy during that part of the season. If Sexton had a viable secondary option, could you imagine what his current attempts would've yielded? When you surround an elite scorer with subpar players/scoring options, they produce for themselves, but the team suffers. Devin Booker suffered through it, Donovan Mitchell lucked into a great situation, Beal started off as a secondary option but dominated but had no team success when the rest of the team sucked, Lavine has put up good seasons but lack of talent meant no one else could help them, etc.

Heck even LeBron took what 3 years to hit the playoffs, and LeBron is in the conversation with being the GOAT, so thinking less than that level of talent would get them tehre is crazy.


Do you believe that becoming more balanced can be successful though? I'm just wondering why we have to have 2 predetermined scoring options and them everyone else.

I see a team that has a lot of moldable talent waiting to take that next step from the 4 other guys I mentioned. Why not run a more balanced offense where 5 guys all take 10+ shots instead of 2 guards dominating touches.

I'm just deathly afraid of underutilizing guys like Allen/Mobley/Lauri let alone Rubio/Love off the bench. We can't just keep hoarding bigs and not involving them in anything more than P&R action. These dudes are talented and can become really good with a expanded role. My point is that when you don't consistently involve them in anything more than garbage cleanup and 7 shots per game then the Cabs become one dimensional and sorry but I'm sick and tired of relying on Collin Sexton to win games. I've seen enough of him. I want others to step up and get their crack at it and have Sextons role reduced.

Mobley being one for obvious reasons, Lauri was the Bulls #2 option for the past few years so he has experience there, Love can still take 10+ shots per game, Rubio needs the ball to facilitate. I'm just uncomfortable asking all of those guys to take smaller roles just to get Sexton his 18+ shots per game and keep pretending he's a legit #1 option.

I would like for him to be in the 12-14 shot range and have him be a piece , not the 18-21 shot range as 'the guy'
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#877 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:42 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I would believe that going into his second season, Okoro will develop into a better finisher at the rim than Sexton than he was his rookie season. He showed a ton of ability his rookie year and I just watched him highlight reel dunk on peoples heads 100x in summer league. Take 3-4 of Sextons shot attempts per game and give them to some other guys.

Having him be the lead option taking 18 attempts per game is going to get the Cavs to another 25 win season. Now that they have more horses, they need to become more dynamic. They cant run the offense like it was the last 3 years.


They can't, but running a better offense that's not reliant on Sexton to be the only reliable scorer, because even last year Sexton still was, then it means it'll be easier for Sexton to score which means his efficiency will rise.

The problem is that the Cavs have had only 2 legit scoring options for 90% of their seasons in Sexton and then a rotation of Garland, Drummond, Love depending on who might be healthy during that part of the season. If Sexton had a viable secondary option, could you imagine what his current attempts would've yielded? When you surround an elite scorer with subpar players/scoring options, they produce for themselves, but the team suffers. Devin Booker suffered through it, Donovan Mitchell lucked into a great situation, Beal started off as a secondary option but dominated but had no team success when the rest of the team sucked, Lavine has put up good seasons but lack of talent meant no one else could help them, etc.

Heck even LeBron took what 3 years to hit the playoffs, and LeBron is in the conversation with being the GOAT, so thinking less than that level of talent would get them tehre is crazy.


Do you believe that becoming more balanced can be successful though? I'm just wondering why we have to have 2 predetermined scoring options and them everyone else.

I see a team that has a lot of moldable talent waiting to take that next step from the 4 other guys I mentioned. Why not run a more balanced offense where 5 guys all take 10+ shots instead of 2 guards dominating touches.

I'm just deathly afraid of underutilizing guys like Allen/Mobley/Lauri let alone Rubio/Love off the bench. We can't just keep hoarding bigs and not involving them in anything more than P&R action. These dudes are talented and can become really good with a expanded role. My point is that when you don't consistently involve them in anything more than garbage cleanup and 7 shots per game then the Cabs become one dimensional and sorry but I'm sick and tired of relying on Collin Sexton to win games. I've seen enough of him. I want others to step up and get their crack at it and have Sextons role reduced.

Mobley being one for obvious reasons, Lauri was the Bulls #2 option for the past few years so he has experience there, Love can still take 10+ shots per game, Rubio needs the ball to facilitate. I'm just uncomfortable asking all of those guys to take smaller roles just to get Sexton his 18+ shots per game and keep pretending he's a legit #1 option.

I would like for him to be in the 12-14 shot range and have him be a piece , not the 18-21 shot range as 'the guy'


Having multiple players who can break down the defense is a very good thing, but Collin has to be willing to participate in our offensive/defensive systems, and our coach has to be able to sell/teach/install those systems.

Those are some big question marks given how little progress we've made since JBB took the reigns, and the answer will either push the team forward or lead to JBB getting fired and/or Collin Sexton being moved off the team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#878 » by LivingLegend » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:14 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
They can't, but running a better offense that's not reliant on Sexton to be the only reliable scorer, because even last year Sexton still was, then it means it'll be easier for Sexton to score which means his efficiency will rise.

The problem is that the Cavs have had only 2 legit scoring options for 90% of their seasons in Sexton and then a rotation of Garland, Drummond, Love depending on who might be healthy during that part of the season. If Sexton had a viable secondary option, could you imagine what his current attempts would've yielded? When you surround an elite scorer with subpar players/scoring options, they produce for themselves, but the team suffers. Devin Booker suffered through it, Donovan Mitchell lucked into a great situation, Beal started off as a secondary option but dominated but had no team success when the rest of the team sucked, Lavine has put up good seasons but lack of talent meant no one else could help them, etc.

Heck even LeBron took what 3 years to hit the playoffs, and LeBron is in the conversation with being the GOAT, so thinking less than that level of talent would get them tehre is crazy.


Do you believe that becoming more balanced can be successful though? I'm just wondering why we have to have 2 predetermined scoring options and them everyone else.

I see a team that has a lot of moldable talent waiting to take that next step from the 4 other guys I mentioned. Why not run a more balanced offense where 5 guys all take 10+ shots instead of 2 guards dominating touches.

I'm just deathly afraid of underutilizing guys like Allen/Mobley/Lauri let alone Rubio/Love off the bench. We can't just keep hoarding bigs and not involving them in anything more than P&R action. These dudes are talented and can become really good with a expanded role. My point is that when you don't consistently involve them in anything more than garbage cleanup and 7 shots per game then the Cabs become one dimensional and sorry but I'm sick and tired of relying on Collin Sexton to win games. I've seen enough of him. I want others to step up and get their crack at it and have Sextons role reduced.

Mobley being one for obvious reasons, Lauri was the Bulls #2 option for the past few years so he has experience there, Love can still take 10+ shots per game, Rubio needs the ball to facilitate. I'm just uncomfortable asking all of those guys to take smaller roles just to get Sexton his 18+ shots per game and keep pretending he's a legit #1 option.

I would like for him to be in the 12-14 shot range and have him be a piece , not the 18-21 shot range as 'the guy'


Having multiple players who can break down the defense is a very good thing, but Collin has to be willing to participate in our offensive/defensive systems, and our coach has to be able to sell/teach/install those systems.

Those are some big question marks given how little progress we've made since JBB took the reigns, and the answer will either push the team forward or lead to JBB getting fired and/or Collin Sexton being moved off the team.


It is a very good thing, however its also good when you have players who can break down a defense and make the right plays, which Sexton has struggled at. Im not opposed for him being one of the primary scoring options, I am however opposed to him dominating the ball every time he is in the game. For the past few years the ball tends to stick when it gets to him because he is only always looking to score or take his man to the rim.

He needs to learn how to be a guy who can get the ball and keep it moving, you dont always need to look to score or drive to the rim every time the ball touches your hands.

Im going to pull my hair out if he goes ISO mode all the time while Lauri, Mobley and Love are on the court just standing around watching him try to get past his defender and either take a shot or force a pass. Those other guys are too talented to just be complimentary pieces to a ISO machine
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#879 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:36 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Do you believe that becoming more balanced can be successful though? I'm just wondering why we have to have 2 predetermined scoring options and them everyone else.

I see a team that has a lot of moldable talent waiting to take that next step from the 4 other guys I mentioned. Why not run a more balanced offense where 5 guys all take 10+ shots instead of 2 guards dominating touches.

I'm just deathly afraid of underutilizing guys like Allen/Mobley/Lauri let alone Rubio/Love off the bench. We can't just keep hoarding bigs and not involving them in anything more than P&R action. These dudes are talented and can become really good with a expanded role. My point is that when you don't consistently involve them in anything more than garbage cleanup and 7 shots per game then the Cabs become one dimensional and sorry but I'm sick and tired of relying on Collin Sexton to win games. I've seen enough of him. I want others to step up and get their crack at it and have Sextons role reduced.

Mobley being one for obvious reasons, Lauri was the Bulls #2 option for the past few years so he has experience there, Love can still take 10+ shots per game, Rubio needs the ball to facilitate. I'm just uncomfortable asking all of those guys to take smaller roles just to get Sexton his 18+ shots per game and keep pretending he's a legit #1 option.

I would like for him to be in the 12-14 shot range and have him be a piece , not the 18-21 shot range as 'the guy'


Having multiple players who can break down the defense is a very good thing, but Collin has to be willing to participate in our offensive/defensive systems, and our coach has to be able to sell/teach/install those systems.

Those are some big question marks given how little progress we've made since JBB took the reigns, and the answer will either push the team forward or lead to JBB getting fired and/or Collin Sexton being moved off the team.


It is a very good thing, however its also good when you have players who can break down a defense and make the right plays, which Sexton has struggled at. Im not opposed for him being one of the primary scoring options, I am however opposed to him dominating the ball every time he is in the game. For the past few years the ball tends to stick when it gets to him because he is only always looking to score or take his man to the rim.

He needs to learn how to be a guy who can get the ball and keep it moving, you dont always need to look to score or drive to the rim every time the ball touches your hands.

Im going to pull my hair out if he goes ISO mode all the time while Lauri, Mobley and Love are on the court just standing around watching him try to get past his defender and either take a shot or force a pass. Those other guys are too talented to just be complimentary pieces to a ISO machine


I could rattle off paragraphs of excuses, but the only thing that matters is whether this is important to our coach and FO and what are they willing to do to make sure it happens?

For the past 3 seasons, the NBA has been Collin's playground as we've piled on minutes with little responsibility or accountability - and Altman made sure of it. Play the kids, take the losses. That was the mandate.

So, I'm not going to presume that Collin is going to change the way he plays overnight, I'll be looking at whether JBB and Altman care enough to do something beyond pulling him from the game a couple of minutes earlier.

At least until injuries kick in, we have options ... but those options need to be massaged and managed in a productive way. We can't afford to lose Collin like we've lost Lue, JR, Drummond, and KPJ.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#880 » by LivingLegend » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:49 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Having multiple players who can break down the defense is a very good thing, but Collin has to be willing to participate in our offensive/defensive systems, and our coach has to be able to sell/teach/install those systems.

Those are some big question marks given how little progress we've made since JBB took the reigns, and the answer will either push the team forward or lead to JBB getting fired and/or Collin Sexton being moved off the team.


It is a very good thing, however its also good when you have players who can break down a defense and make the right plays, which Sexton has struggled at. Im not opposed for him being one of the primary scoring options, I am however opposed to him dominating the ball every time he is in the game. For the past few years the ball tends to stick when it gets to him because he is only always looking to score or take his man to the rim.

He needs to learn how to be a guy who can get the ball and keep it moving, you dont always need to look to score or drive to the rim every time the ball touches your hands.

Im going to pull my hair out if he goes ISO mode all the time while Lauri, Mobley and Love are on the court just standing around watching him try to get past his defender and either take a shot or force a pass. Those other guys are too talented to just be complimentary pieces to a ISO machine


I could rattle off paragraphs of excuses, but the only thing that matters is whether this is important to our coach and FO and what are they willing to do to make sure it happens?

For the past 3 seasons, the NBA has been Collin's playground as we've piled on minutes with little responsibility or accountability - and Altman made sure of it. Play the kids, take the losses. That was the mandate.

So, I'm not going to presume that Collin is going to change the way he plays overnight, I'll be looking at whether JBB and Altman care enough to do something beyond pulling him from the game a couple of minutes earlier.

At least until injuries kick in, we have options ... but those options need to be massaged and managed in a productive way. We can't afford to lose Collin like we've lost Lue, JR, Drummond, and KPJ.


Thats fair. I dont want to lose him either because I think he can be a very positive piece. It all depends on, like you said, him understanding the way the coaching staff wants him to play and stop going full playground mode. I guess we will see in time if he has learned anything or not because I need a more refined version of Collin Sexton. A more heady version. A more in control version.

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