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Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild?

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Pelly24
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#101 » by Pelly24 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:37 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Kyrie had a pretty amazing rookie season, but if we're judging by their ability to help a team win basketball games, Evan was on his way to getting the nod before hurting his elbow.

Kyrie won some games almost single-handedly as a rook, but Evan's defenses shows up every night. Evan helps his teammates on both ends of the floor, while Kyrie was more of a one man wrecking ball.


So much of how Kyrie is seen, or was seen even, comes down to where he was drafted and when. If he'd come out of high school and ended up in San Antonio as a mid lottery pick, he would've immediately been seen as a winning player because he could come off the bench and average like 14/4/5 on like +7 TS% and play within a system seamlessly. But instead, he ended up on the post-LeBron Cavs that stupidly drafted Anthony Bennet No. 1 and was obviously trying to tank. He came into the league an 18/4/6 on +4 or +5 TS% efficiency. He could play fast, slow, on or off ball just like now. He won multiple games singlehandedly. He could get by any defender any time he wanted, score from everywhere on the court and dish out passes nicely. Remember the game winners versus the Celtics and Nuggets. Mobley is great, but the circumstances here are totally different. Jarrett Allen alone is far better than everyone Kyrie played with before LeBron returned to Cleveland. Same with Collin Sexton and Darius Garland. Not even close. Mobley might be the best prospect/player since LeBron, but it's not an apples to apples thing, and Kyrie was pretty much an All-Star guy from Day No. 1.


Pops wouldn't put up with a player who only played for himself like Kyrie, so something would have to give.

After Kyrie beat some teams they watched tape and they realized they just had to crowd the paint and Irving would beat himself. He became allergic to contract, stopped drawing fouls, stopped fighting through screens, stopped playing defense, belittled his teammate.

Things can change, but Evan is well on his way to surpassing Kyrie almost no matter how you slice it and so much of the difference is in his head.

Nobody is going to wonder if the Cavs would be better off starting Matthew Dellevadova over Mobley.



I think a good amount of that is conditional though. He wouldn't have had to do any of that if he played for the Spurs. He passed a lot when he was in Boston and even on the Nets. He can play any style. Pop LOVES Kyrie Irving and talked him up any time he could. He would've been bred to be a better Tony Parker. At the end of the day, he was only 19-22 before LeBron came back. Kyrie in 2k18-2k21 is wayyyy better than early stints Cavs, it's not even close.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#102 » by JonFromVA » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:02 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
So much of how Kyrie is seen, or was seen even, comes down to where he was drafted and when. If he'd come out of high school and ended up in San Antonio as a mid lottery pick, he would've immediately been seen as a winning player because he could come off the bench and average like 14/4/5 on like +7 TS% and play within a system seamlessly. But instead, he ended up on the post-LeBron Cavs that stupidly drafted Anthony Bennet No. 1 and was obviously trying to tank. He came into the league an 18/4/6 on +4 or +5 TS% efficiency. He could play fast, slow, on or off ball just like now. He won multiple games singlehandedly. He could get by any defender any time he wanted, score from everywhere on the court and dish out passes nicely. Remember the game winners versus the Celtics and Nuggets. Mobley is great, but the circumstances here are totally different. Jarrett Allen alone is far better than everyone Kyrie played with before LeBron returned to Cleveland. Same with Collin Sexton and Darius Garland. Not even close. Mobley might be the best prospect/player since LeBron, but it's not an apples to apples thing, and Kyrie was pretty much an All-Star guy from Day No. 1.


Pops wouldn't put up with a player who only played for himself like Kyrie, so something would have to give.

After Kyrie beat some teams they watched tape and they realized they just had to crowd the paint and Irving would beat himself. He became allergic to contract, stopped drawing fouls, stopped fighting through screens, stopped playing defense, belittled his teammate.

Things can change, but Evan is well on his way to surpassing Kyrie almost no matter how you slice it and so much of the difference is in his head.

Nobody is going to wonder if the Cavs would be better off starting Matthew Dellevadova over Mobley.



I think a good amount of that is conditional though. He wouldn't have had to do any of that if he played for the Spurs. He passed a lot when he was in Boston and even on the Nets. He can play any style. Pop LOVES Kyrie Irving and talked him up any time he could. He would've been bred to be a better Tony Parker. At the end of the day, he was only 19-22 before LeBron came back. Kyrie in 2k18-2k21 is wayyyy better than early stints Cavs, it's not even close.


I'm not convinced the player who stunk up the joint in the playoffs for Boston, wouldn't play without KD, refused to play in the bubble, and would rather sit at home than get vaccinated is an improvement.

Defenses can't key on him the same when he's 2nd or 3rd banana.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#103 » by Pelly24 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:47 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Pops wouldn't put up with a player who only played for himself like Kyrie, so something would have to give.

After Kyrie beat some teams they watched tape and they realized they just had to crowd the paint and Irving would beat himself. He became allergic to contract, stopped drawing fouls, stopped fighting through screens, stopped playing defense, belittled his teammate.

Things can change, but Evan is well on his way to surpassing Kyrie almost no matter how you slice it and so much of the difference is in his head.

Nobody is going to wonder if the Cavs would be better off starting Matthew Dellevadova over Mobley.



I think a good amount of that is conditional though. He wouldn't have had to do any of that if he played for the Spurs. He passed a lot when he was in Boston and even on the Nets. He can play any style. Pop LOVES Kyrie Irving and talked him up any time he could. He would've been bred to be a better Tony Parker. At the end of the day, he was only 19-22 before LeBron came back. Kyrie in 2k18-2k21 is wayyyy better than early stints Cavs, it's not even close.


I'm not convinced the player who stunk up the joint in the playoffs for Boston, wouldn't play without KD, refused to play in the bubble, and would rather sit at home than get vaccinated is an improvement.

Defenses can't key on him the same when he's 2nd or 3rd banana.


I mean it's really just one playoff series. He also beat a historically great team in the playoffs lol. And he also got to the playoffs in a solid position without another all-star, which is something that someone like even Tatum is struggling with now (with another all-star).

I'm not saying Kyrie isn't crazy—I've been one of his harshest critics on here for all this nonsense he's done—but what I am saying is that for all of his talent, people looked at him as a "losing player" largely based on his circumstances. Look at how no one is calling Zach Lavine or Devin Booker losing players now that they've got good/solid teams surrounding them. There's a reason for that. A guy who comes in averaging 18/4/6 on what would now be 60 TS% as a rookie is insane and can fit in anywhere w. that handle/shotmaking/playmaking and speed. The hype was already crazy, but it would've been even crazier if he were on a team like the Spurs, Celtics, etc.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#104 » by JonFromVA » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:59 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:

I think a good amount of that is conditional though. He wouldn't have had to do any of that if he played for the Spurs. He passed a lot when he was in Boston and even on the Nets. He can play any style. Pop LOVES Kyrie Irving and talked him up any time he could. He would've been bred to be a better Tony Parker. At the end of the day, he was only 19-22 before LeBron came back. Kyrie in 2k18-2k21 is wayyyy better than early stints Cavs, it's not even close.


I'm not convinced the player who stunk up the joint in the playoffs for Boston, wouldn't play without KD, refused to play in the bubble, and would rather sit at home than get vaccinated is an improvement.

Defenses can't key on him the same when he's 2nd or 3rd banana.


I mean it's really just one playoff series. He also beat a historically great team in the playoffs lol. And he also got to the playoffs in a solid position without another all-star, which is something that someone like even Tatum is struggling with now (with another all-star).

I'm not saying Kyrie isn't crazy—I've been one of his harshest critics on here for all this nonsense he's done—but what I am saying is that for all of his talent, people looked at him as a "losing player" largely based on his circumstances. Look at how no one is calling Zach Lavine or Devin Booker losing players now that they've got good/solid teams surrounding them. There's a reason for that. A guy who comes in averaging 18/4/6 on what would now be 60 TS% as a rookie is insane and can fit in anywhere w. that handle/shotmaking/playmaking and speed. The hype was already crazy, but it would've been even crazier if he were on a team like the Spurs, Celtics, etc.


Sure, a PG sized SG who can reliably beat his man and score points with efficiency has value in the right circumstances ... we're still wrestling with that concept with Collin Sexton. But Kyrie is not content with "the right circumstances" ... he had that in Cleveland and blew it up, he had that in Boston and detonated it ... he picked Brooklyn and walked out on them at least twice by my count.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#105 » by Pelly24 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:36 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I'm not convinced the player who stunk up the joint in the playoffs for Boston, wouldn't play without KD, refused to play in the bubble, and would rather sit at home than get vaccinated is an improvement.

Defenses can't key on him the same when he's 2nd or 3rd banana.


I mean it's really just one playoff series. He also beat a historically great team in the playoffs lol. And he also got to the playoffs in a solid position without another all-star, which is something that someone like even Tatum is struggling with now (with another all-star).

I'm not saying Kyrie isn't crazy—I've been one of his harshest critics on here for all this nonsense he's done—but what I am saying is that for all of his talent, people looked at him as a "losing player" largely based on his circumstances. Look at how no one is calling Zach Lavine or Devin Booker losing players now that they've got good/solid teams surrounding them. There's a reason for that. A guy who comes in averaging 18/4/6 on what would now be 60 TS% as a rookie is insane and can fit in anywhere w. that handle/shotmaking/playmaking and speed. The hype was already crazy, but it would've been even crazier if he were on a team like the Spurs, Celtics, etc.


Sure, a PG sized SG who can reliably beat his man and score points with efficiency has value in the right circumstances ... we're still wrestling with that concept with Collin Sexton. But Kyrie is not content with "the right circumstances" ... he had that in Cleveland and blew it up, he had that in Boston and detonated it ... he picked Brooklyn and walked out on them at least twice by my count.


I think it's impossible to remove Kyrie's attitude/behavior from his abilities on the court. But on the court, Boston worked perfectly well, and they'd be pretty much unstoppable if he were still there, and he would probably be their most consistent player because he's a better passer and scorer and is an all-around smarter player than Tatum and Brown. In BK I mean... him and Harden were basically unstoppable when they played, and Kyrie had a month averaging 30/6/6 on 62 TS%, and was still beating teams with Harden/KD off the court. Kyrie is a couple of leagues above Sexton as a playmaker/passer and a scorer while also being a better defender.

I agree that Kyrie in general has proven to not be worth it. If it were just the injuries, I'd still take a chance. But that and his attitude toward playing basketball it's like...clearly not worth it. But in terms of ability, and especially what he's shown between 2015 and 2021, you can't really just assume any rookie will be better than that. He's an *easy* hall of fame if he plays four more seasons. He'd be like an 11-time all-star, seven-time All-NBA guy and get 25k points, 5k assists, 5k rebounds, etc.

I would say that Mobley could be a face-up 5 who gets 25/12/5 on +4 TS% and elite defense, and probably be a top 10 player. But it's always hard to project. KAT has all the talent in the world but still kinda sucks.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#106 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:00 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
I mean it's really just one playoff series. He also beat a historically great team in the playoffs lol. And he also got to the playoffs in a solid position without another all-star, which is something that someone like even Tatum is struggling with now (with another all-star).

I'm not saying Kyrie isn't crazy—I've been one of his harshest critics on here for all this nonsense he's done—but what I am saying is that for all of his talent, people looked at him as a "losing player" largely based on his circumstances. Look at how no one is calling Zach Lavine or Devin Booker losing players now that they've got good/solid teams surrounding them. There's a reason for that. A guy who comes in averaging 18/4/6 on what would now be 60 TS% as a rookie is insane and can fit in anywhere w. that handle/shotmaking/playmaking and speed. The hype was already crazy, but it would've been even crazier if he were on a team like the Spurs, Celtics, etc.


Sure, a PG sized SG who can reliably beat his man and score points with efficiency has value in the right circumstances ... we're still wrestling with that concept with Collin Sexton. But Kyrie is not content with "the right circumstances" ... he had that in Cleveland and blew it up, he had that in Boston and detonated it ... he picked Brooklyn and walked out on them at least twice by my count.


I think it's impossible to remove Kyrie's attitude/behavior from his abilities on the court. But on the court, Boston worked perfectly well, and they'd be pretty much unstoppable if he were still there, and he would probably be their most consistent player because he's a better passer and scorer and is an all-around smarter player than Tatum and Brown. In BK I mean... him and Harden were basically unstoppable when they played, and Kyrie had a month averaging 30/6/6 on 62 TS%, and was still beating teams with Harden/KD off the court. Kyrie is a couple of leagues above Sexton as a playmaker/passer and a scorer while also being a better defender.

I agree that Kyrie in general has proven to not be worth it. If it were just the injuries, I'd still take a chance. But that and his attitude toward playing basketball it's like...clearly not worth it. But in terms of ability, and especially what he's shown between 2015 and 2021, you can't really just assume any rookie will be better than that. He's an *easy* hall of fame if he plays four more seasons. He'd be like an 11-time all-star, seven-time All-NBA guy and get 25k points, 5k assists, 5k rebounds, etc.

I would say that Mobley could be a face-up 5 who gets 25/12/5 on +4 TS% and elite defense, and probably be a top 10 player. But it's always hard to project. KAT has all the talent in the world but still kinda sucks.


I like that Evan is able to seamlessly contribute to winning, but like I originally said ... he's on the path to becoming our best rook since LeBron - he's not there yet. One thing I learned from Kyrie is not to expect year to year exponential growth from a player who enters the league already very advanced - but even if Evan has less to learn than a lot of rooks - his physical growth still has a very high potential pay off.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#107 » by Pelly24 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:59 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Sure, a PG sized SG who can reliably beat his man and score points with efficiency has value in the right circumstances ... we're still wrestling with that concept with Collin Sexton. But Kyrie is not content with "the right circumstances" ... he had that in Cleveland and blew it up, he had that in Boston and detonated it ... he picked Brooklyn and walked out on them at least twice by my count.


I think it's impossible to remove Kyrie's attitude/behavior from his abilities on the court. But on the court, Boston worked perfectly well, and they'd be pretty much unstoppable if he were still there, and he would probably be their most consistent player because he's a better passer and scorer and is an all-around smarter player than Tatum and Brown. In BK I mean... him and Harden were basically unstoppable when they played, and Kyrie had a month averaging 30/6/6 on 62 TS%, and was still beating teams with Harden/KD off the court. Kyrie is a couple of leagues above Sexton as a playmaker/passer and a scorer while also being a better defender.

I agree that Kyrie in general has proven to not be worth it. If it were just the injuries, I'd still take a chance. But that and his attitude toward playing basketball it's like...clearly not worth it. But in terms of ability, and especially what he's shown between 2015 and 2021, you can't really just assume any rookie will be better than that. He's an *easy* hall of fame if he plays four more seasons. He'd be like an 11-time all-star, seven-time All-NBA guy and get 25k points, 5k assists, 5k rebounds, etc.

I would say that Mobley could be a face-up 5 who gets 25/12/5 on +4 TS% and elite defense, and probably be a top 10 player. But it's always hard to project. KAT has all the talent in the world but still kinda sucks.


I like that Evan is able to seamlessly contribute to winning, but like I originally said ... he's on the path to becoming our best rook since LeBron - he's not there yet. One thing I learned from Kyrie is not to expect year to year exponential growth from a player who enters the league already very advanced - but even if Evan has less to learn than a lot of rooks - his physical growth still has a very high potential pay off.



Yeah Evan I don't think has a ceiling, strictly speaking, and his floor is super high. Like, at absolute worst he's a guy that can get 20/12 with very good defense and stroke it from the perimeter. I'm very certain he'll at the very least be an all-star. He actually looks like the safest pick in retrospect.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#108 » by SaiCLE » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:37 pm

Mobley has been practicing his jumpers including shooting with his left for a few weeks now. He would have been back but Cavs are obviously being careful and not rushing him back. The other rookies are doing well but it’s amazing how while being out he’s still one of best defenders in the league numbers wise.

A young PF who can shoot, pass, dribble, have high iq and is one of the best defenders in the league.

We can’t win without him so hopefully he’s back by next week.
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Re: Evan Mobley -- Centerpiece of the Cavalier Rebuild? 

Post#109 » by JonFromVA » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:57 pm

It sounds like Evan will give it a go .vs. Orlando, which would be right at the 2-week mark.

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