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Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million

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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#21 » by jbk1234 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:41 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:I believe we are now hard capped after receiving a player in S&T
IIRC that's only if we're over the apron. We're not.

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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#22 » by toooskies » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:42 pm

It firms up some team roles. We'll likely have a stretch big and a rim-protector big on the court at all times now. I'm not sure if this says Mobley isn't ready to start at PF or C and we'll figure out the fit once he develops a bit, or if it says we're going to run some crazy lineups with three seven-footers.

Markkanen is an upgrade at PF in the sense that you can trust him to score more than you could Nance. Which means Sexton has less of an excuse to keep the ball himself-- Allen is high TS%, Markkanen is high TS%, Garland is too. Let's run a real offense.

Hopefully Markkanen should still be an asset in 2-3 years and not a liability, but making his last year only partially guaranteed should make him movable in a couple years in the worst case. Wouldn't it be great if Love's last year was only partially guaranteed?

I'm not sure what the plan is with Love. I'm not sure there is a plan.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#23 » by jbk1234 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:43 pm

I don't think the Cavs are good enough defensively to prioritize spacing above all else this way.

Also, our softness just increased to Charmin levels.

I think we just traded our best win-now player for another we'll-see young guy. I suspect the second best offer for Lauri wasn't anywhere near this good, in terms of dollars or trade compensation.

I'm not sure Lauri is better than Hartenstein.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#24 » by FranchisePlayer » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:57 pm

toooskies wrote:I'm not sure what the plan is with Love. I'm not sure there is a plan.


Get rid of faster than you can say jack robinson?

I don't think it's a good plan to sign a guy for 4 years / 67 million, just to be a designated bench warmer. But it does become even worse of a plan if you sit $30 million on the bench.

$46 million invested in PFs you're not 100% sure what they will produce come the season?

There has to be a plan, even a D plan, right.
MrSparkle wrote:I don't see a scenario here or there where Lauri becomes the "7-pick we thought he could be." If you remove his 3P ability, he's worse than Felicio by a mile.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#25 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:02 pm

Wisedude wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Congrats y'all got a steal guys! I wanted the bulls to pair Jarrett Allen next to Lauri and I wanted them to draft Garland over Coby. Alas, I'll have to watch it play out on your team. Should be fun to see how it goes.

Lauri was my second favorite player from the bulls after Jimmy Butler. He flashed a lot of potential but never really got to take off with the tanking and poor PG situation we had throughout Lauri's rookie contract.

Here is some reading material to give y'all a backgtound of his career so far. I think he can get back to what I was predicting back then.

This is a breakdown of year 1 & 2 and using that to predict year 3: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=78164481#p78164481

Unfortunately, worst case scenario happened in year 3. He got injured early on and became an afterthought in the primitive Boylen offense. He still showed some flashes though:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=82217073#p82217073

Last year (year 4), he was almost back on track! He was averaging 23/8 p36 @66.5TS% as a 4th option starting PF. Covid/injuries issues again derailed the season.
Unfortunately when he came back, he was put out of position at C for a few games (Lauri can't be a primary rim protector, but will be great next to JA and Mobley), then bulls traded for Vuc and benched Lauri.

Lauri still averaged 16.5/7.6 p36 @ 62TS% but he was a complete afterthought going from 4th option to like 8th option.

I can easily see Lauri back at 20/8 @ 60-65%TS if he is a focal point for you guys. I'm excited to see it.


Thanks for the report. I've got a lot to absorb before I'll come to an opinion other than a few quick takes (haha):

1) Nance is great and will be missed, but we can't trust him to stay healthy, play big minutes, or start;
2) We need reliable 3pt shooting and Lauri is more reliable than Larry;
3) Lauri's contract is well above MLE level, but that's basically what it takes, and I'm not too concerned;
4) Lauri's age and contract length fits better with our core;
5) Lauri may be coming off the bench, but if so, he will have a bigger role and will still likely be paired with either Allen or Mobley at C and Rubio at PG;

otoh, what does this do for our wing search and do we still have the full MLE to work with? Or are we basically done short of dipping in to the luxury tax?


Nance is NOT great. If Nance was a great player he would not have been traded. Nance never made the All-Star team either. He is a limited offensive player, below average shooter. Good guy, good teammate, good defender, get all that but not a great player.


lol, I obviously didn't mean great in the absolute sense ... Larry was great for the Cavs at his price and for everything he brought.

Like I said, I have a lot more home work to do on Markennan, but he was putting up 19 & 9 as a 21 year old. I'm not ready to say he's a great pickup, but great teams can be built by snagging undervalued players coming off their rookie contract.

For some players things don't really get interesting until they're 25yrs old and up.

In terms of defensive upside, unfortunately his wingspan is just 6'11" .vs. Nance at 7'1.5".
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#26 » by RoseTheFuture22 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:10 pm

I think Lauri is a better fit next to Allen or Mobley than Nance is. But Nance is definitely a more well rounded player. Contract wise its probably a slight overpay but he's Young and shouldn't forget how to shoot(although he's veeeeery streaky). Needs to stay healthy too he was a slow healer and a lock to miss 15 or so games
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#27 » by jbk1234 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:11 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Wisedude wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Thanks for the report. I've got a lot to absorb before I'll come to an opinion other than a few quick takes (haha):

1) Nance is great and will be missed, but we can't trust him to stay healthy, play big minutes, or start;
2) We need reliable 3pt shooting and Lauri is more reliable than Larry;
3) Lauri's contract is well above MLE level, but that's basically what it takes, and I'm not too concerned;
4) Lauri's age and contract length fits better with our core;
5) Lauri may be coming off the bench, but if so, he will have a bigger role and will still likely be paired with either Allen or Mobley at C and Rubio at PG;

otoh, what does this do for our wing search and do we still have the full MLE to work with? Or are we basically done short of dipping in to the luxury tax?


Nance is NOT great. If Nance was a great player he would not have been traded. Nance never made the All-Star team either. He is a limited offensive player, below average shooter. Good guy, good teammate, good defender, get all that but not a great player.


lol, I obviously didn't mean great in the absolute sense ... Larry was great for the Cavs at his price and for everything he brought.

Like I said, I have a lot more home work to do on Markennan, but he was putting up 19 & 9 as a 21 year old. I'm not ready to say he's a great pickup, but great teams can be built by snagging undervalued players coming off their rookie contract.

For some players things don't really get interesting until they're 25yrs old and up.

In terms of defensive upside, unfortunately his wingspan is just 6'11" .vs. Nance at 7'1.5".
Lauri's wing span could be 8'6" and I'd still have grave concerns about him defensively.

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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#28 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:15 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I don't think the Cavs are good enough defensively to prioritize spacing above all else this way.

Also, our softness just increased to Charmin levels.

I think we just traded our best win-now player for another we'll-see young guy. I suspect the second best offer for Lauri wasn't anywhere near this good, in terms of dollars or trade compensation.

I'm not sure Lauri is better than Hartenstein.


Hartenstein is a C, Lauri sure isn't.

To riff on an tweet of Fedor's which just said "Traits. Not positions." ... did we need more shooting? Oh, yes. Does Lauri improve our 3pt shooting? Oh, yes. Is he a SF? Noooooo ... but if we'd signed a no defense SF who could shoot like Duncan Robinson to a deal like this, , would we be complaining? Not so much.

So, I wonder ... how much worse are we if we end up playing Mobley or Markkanen at SF so we can get that shooting on the floor?

Something to ponder ...
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#29 » by jbk1234 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:16 pm

Wisedude wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Congrats y'all got a steal guys! I wanted the bulls to pair Jarrett Allen next to Lauri and I wanted them to draft Garland over Coby. Alas, I'll have to watch it play out on your team. Should be fun to see how it goes.

Lauri was my second favorite player from the bulls after Jimmy Butler. He flashed a lot of potential but never really got to take off with the tanking and poor PG situation we had throughout Lauri's rookie contract.

Here is some reading material to give y'all a backgtound of his career so far. I think he can get back to what I was predicting back then.

This is a breakdown of year 1 & 2 and using that to predict year 3: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=78164481#p78164481

Unfortunately, worst case scenario happened in year 3. He got injured early on and became an afterthought in the primitive Boylen offense. He still showed some flashes though:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=82217073#p82217073

Last year (year 4), he was almost back on track! He was averaging 23/8 p36 @66.5TS% as a 4th option starting PF. Covid/injuries issues again derailed the season.
Unfortunately when he came back, he was put out of position at C for a few games (Lauri can't be a primary rim protector, but will be great next to JA and Mobley), then bulls traded for Vuc and benched Lauri.

Lauri still averaged 16.5/7.6 p36 @ 62TS% but he was a complete afterthought going from 4th option to like 8th option.

I can easily see Lauri back at 20/8 @ 60-65%TS if he is a focal point for you guys. I'm excited to see it.


Thanks for the report. I've got a lot to absorb before I'll come to an opinion other than a few quick takes (haha):

1) Nance is great and will be missed, but we can't trust him to stay healthy, play big minutes, or start;
2) We need reliable 3pt shooting and Lauri is more reliable than Larry;
3) Lauri's contract is well above MLE level, but that's basically what it takes, and I'm not too concerned;
4) Lauri's age and contract length fits better with our core;
5) Lauri may be coming off the bench, but if so, he will have a bigger role and will still likely be paired with either Allen or Mobley at C and Rubio at PG;

otoh, what does this do for our wing search and do we still have the full MLE to work with? Or are we basically done short of dipping in to the luxury tax?


Nance is NOT great. If Nance was a great player he would not have been traded. Nance never made the All-Star team either. He is a limited offensive player, below average shooter. Good guy, good teammate, good defender, get all that but not a great player.
I don't think he's great, but he had the best advanced stats on the team over the last two years and was clearly missed when he was out (which was admittedly too often). Due to his versatility, he balanced an imbalanced roster in a way that I don't see Lauri doing.

I wish I liked this trade more, but I would've taken DJJ and the first.

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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#30 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:33 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Wisedude wrote:
Nance is NOT great. If Nance was a great player he would not have been traded. Nance never made the All-Star team either. He is a limited offensive player, below average shooter. Good guy, good teammate, good defender, get all that but not a great player.


lol, I obviously didn't mean great in the absolute sense ... Larry was great for the Cavs at his price and for everything he brought.

Like I said, I have a lot more home work to do on Markennan, but he was putting up 19 & 9 as a 21 year old. I'm not ready to say he's a great pickup, but great teams can be built by snagging undervalued players coming off their rookie contract.

For some players things don't really get interesting until they're 25yrs old and up.

In terms of defensive upside, unfortunately his wingspan is just 6'11" .vs. Nance at 7'1.5".
Lauri's wing span could be 8'6" and I'd still have grave concerns about him defensively.


Upside is still a thing for him for a 7 footer who just turned 24, so physical traits help there; so does experience, coaching teammates, etc, etc.

But yes, we can only hope Lauri improves in areas that Larry was already demonstrably good at.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#31 » by Harper4Ferry? » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:34 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Harper4Ferry? wrote:I believe we are now hard capped after receiving a player in S&T
IIRC that's only if we're over the apron. We're not.

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The apron and the hard cap are the same thing afaik.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#32 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:40 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Wisedude wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Thanks for the report. I've got a lot to absorb before I'll come to an opinion other than a few quick takes (haha):

1) Nance is great and will be missed, but we can't trust him to stay healthy, play big minutes, or start;
2) We need reliable 3pt shooting and Lauri is more reliable than Larry;
3) Lauri's contract is well above MLE level, but that's basically what it takes, and I'm not too concerned;
4) Lauri's age and contract length fits better with our core;
5) Lauri may be coming off the bench, but if so, he will have a bigger role and will still likely be paired with either Allen or Mobley at C and Rubio at PG;

otoh, what does this do for our wing search and do we still have the full MLE to work with? Or are we basically done short of dipping in to the luxury tax?


Nance is NOT great. If Nance was a great player he would not have been traded. Nance never made the All-Star team either. He is a limited offensive player, below average shooter. Good guy, good teammate, good defender, get all that but not a great player.
I don't think he's great, but he had the best advanced stats on the team over the last two years and was clearly missed when he was out (which was admittedly too often). Due to his versatility, he balanced an imbalanced roster in a way that I don't see Lauri doing.

I wish I liked this trade more, but I would've taken DJJ and the first.


Larry made us better, no doubt about that, but there's also little doubt one of the imbalances on the roster is shooting and drafting Mobley has not likely helped that - at least in the short term.

I was looking forward to Larry helping Evan develop his skills because they have a lot of the same all-around skills, but in that same sense they're kind of redundant.

What happens with Kevin is certainly a big question and as one of the big proponents of dumping him ASAP, surely you see the shooting hole that creates sooner if not later.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#33 » by Harper4Ferry? » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:42 pm

From the coon faq.

In other words, when a team is below the Apron and uses its Bi-Annual exception, receives a player who is signed-and-traded, or uses its Mid-Level exception to sign a player to a contract larger than allowed by the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the team becomes hard-capped at the Apron for the remainder of that season. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use one of these exceptions and subsequently add salary to go above the Apron, since the reverse -- adding salary first and then using the exception -- would be illegal.

If a team is hard-capped, it cannot exceed the Apron under any circumstance.


Not that we’re going over the tax anyways but we’re now limited in what we can theoretically take back in subsequent trades and our MLE remaining will shrink.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#34 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:06 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:From the coon faq.

In other words, when a team is below the Apron and uses its Bi-Annual exception, receives a player who is signed-and-traded, or uses its Mid-Level exception to sign a player to a contract larger than allowed by the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the team becomes hard-capped at the Apron for the remainder of that season. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use one of these exceptions and subsequently add salary to go above the Apron, since the reverse -- adding salary first and then using the exception -- would be illegal.

If a team is hard-capped, it cannot exceed the Apron under any circumstance.


Not that we’re going over the tax anyways but we’re now limited in what we can theoretically take back in subsequent trades and our MLE remaining will shrink.


My reading of that clause is that we now have a hard cap at the apron which is $6M above the luxury tax level ($139.9M).

We might still be able to use our MLE as long as we stay under that number. So, we might have $7M to $8M more we can spend if we were willing to pay tax, but next to nothing if we want to stay out of the tax.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#35 » by LivingLegend » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:16 pm

Wisedude wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Wisedude wrote:The Cavs are still a developing team and know they need another high draft pick next year. The Cavs are young and talented. Lauri Markkanen has such a good shooting stroke. The roster is still evolving but in a really good way. Even if Love is here, it is ok.


Besides the fact that the only true SF that they have on the roster is Osman who would be a 13th man off the bench on any decent team.


Windler's best position imo is the small forward so need to get him healthy to start the season. Did you think the Cavs were going to be a finished roster product this offseason? To put together a top team takes years (just ask Milwaukee). Altman, Gansey, Weems and the entire Coaching staff were certainly on board with this trade. Cavs were a poor shooting team and this helps. Next year in the draft, small forward will be a priority.


Positional fit matters. As we have realized from the Sexland trainwreck. I dont mind them trading Nance for a player that can make the team better-- I just don't understand why that's Lauri who gives the Cavs 3 7footers all are drafted/paid to be starters.

This team just continues to be assembled by looking at names only and completely throwing out positional fit.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#36 » by LivingLegend » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:20 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Wisedude wrote:
Nance is NOT great. If Nance was a great player he would not have been traded. Nance never made the All-Star team either. He is a limited offensive player, below average shooter. Good guy, good teammate, good defender, get all that but not a great player.
I don't think he's great, but he had the best advanced stats on the team over the last two years and was clearly missed when he was out (which was admittedly too often). Due to his versatility, he balanced an imbalanced roster in a way that I don't see Lauri doing.

I wish I liked this trade more, but I would've taken DJJ and the first.


Larry made us better, no doubt about that, but there's also little doubt one of the imbalances on the roster is shooting and drafting Mobley has not likely helped that - at least in the short term.

I was looking forward to Larry helping Evan develop his skills because they have a lot of the same all-around skills, but in that same sense they're kind of redundant.

What happens with Kevin is certainly a big question and as one of the big proponents of dumping him ASAP, surely you see the shooting hole that creates sooner if not later.


Just because this roster needs shooting doesn't mean you have to go get another PF to do so which creates another disaster of a lineup.

The Cavs could have traded Nance for Ross, Reddish, either or both of the Utah veterans, ECT. All of which would have been a better fit than Lauri. This is just flat out embarrassing
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#37 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:51 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I don't think he's great, but he had the best advanced stats on the team over the last two years and was clearly missed when he was out (which was admittedly too often). Due to his versatility, he balanced an imbalanced roster in a way that I don't see Lauri doing.

I wish I liked this trade more, but I would've taken DJJ and the first.


Larry made us better, no doubt about that, but there's also little doubt one of the imbalances on the roster is shooting and drafting Mobley has not likely helped that - at least in the short term.

I was looking forward to Larry helping Evan develop his skills because they have a lot of the same all-around skills, but in that same sense they're kind of redundant.

What happens with Kevin is certainly a big question and as one of the big proponents of dumping him ASAP, surely you see the shooting hole that creates sooner if not later.


Just because this roster needs shooting doesn't mean you have to go get another PF to do so which creates another disaster of a lineup.

The Cavs could have traded Nance for Ross, Reddish, either or both of the Utah veterans, ECT. All of which would have been a better fit than Lauri. This is just flat out embarrassing


In a swamp of bad choices we picked shooting, talent, length, and youth.

We could have done worse.

We also could have just kept Larry.

But the fit of this team is going to continue to be a big question mark until we decide what to do with Sexland/Okoro.

Until that happens, at least we have another shooter.
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#38 » by El Hespiritu » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:10 pm

Nance was probably the player I liked the more from last year Cavs roster.

So, obviously...


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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#39 » by JonFromVA » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:21 pm

What I wonder is what was Markkanen and/or the Bulls going to do if Lauri's best offer was the MLE?
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Re: Cavs aquire Lauri Markkanen via S&T - 4 years/ 67 million 

Post#40 » by Hugi Mancura » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:27 pm

Maybe Cavs fans should think this as a gift to Nance. Cavs gave him the opportunity to fight in playoffs in his prime.

Like it or not, but Cavs are 2-4 years away from reaching playoffs, and that is with or without Nance, and at that time Cavs can trade one of the bigs. Is it Lauri, Allen or Mobley, who knows. There is some risk in this trade, but if Lauri becomes a 20 point scorer with 40% 3 point shooting and 60% ts scorer Cavs will get more back than they gave, if they trade Lauri. And this to happen Lauri just needs to keep his last years efficiency and take 5 more shots in a game. I think Cavs can give that.

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