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GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET

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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#21 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:59 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Oh, we were in danger and JBB played like it not wanting to take any chances of blowing that lead. Given we had the lead, JBB may certainly have preferred a more defensive lineup and would have possibly sent Collin back in if we needed to score, but he also choose to play Love which was certainly more of an experience/hot-hand move than a defensive one.

Something to watch, but finishing lineups can show who the head coach actually trusts .vs. who he's been told to play give or take situational and hot-hand decisions.

I'd say in general JBB did a pretty good job spreading out the minutes in this game, and only leaned heavily on Allen. There may have been some discussions after playing Mobley 38 minutes in the opener. Garland had the second most minutes on his recovering ankle but at least it was under 32.


THen I don't know why Garland was in if it was cuz of defense cuz he kept getting blown by and caught sleeping when his man was cutting to the rim. Also the Cavs were never really in danger. IIRC they never got closer to within 3 of the Cavs in the 4th quarter.


Oh, I'm not saying we didn't do a good job of closing this game out, but sometimes we start turning the ball over willy nilly when a team pressures us and we've blown leads just because the other team started playing hard and hitting shots.

Anyway, something to watch for now, but don't be surprised if Sexton's decision to turn down our extension offer doesn't change how we use him, how we promote him, etc, etc.


Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#22 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:09 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
THen I don't know why Garland was in if it was cuz of defense cuz he kept getting blown by and caught sleeping when his man was cutting to the rim. Also the Cavs were never really in danger. IIRC they never got closer to within 3 of the Cavs in the 4th quarter.


Oh, I'm not saying we didn't do a good job of closing this game out, but sometimes we start turning the ball over willy nilly when a team pressures us and we've blown leads just because the other team started playing hard and hitting shots.

Anyway, something to watch for now, but don't be surprised if Sexton's decision to turn down our extension offer doesn't change how we use him, how we promote him, etc, etc.


Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


lol, are you a Cavs fan or a Sexton fan?

We're treating him more than fine, you're just getting more of a glimpse of how JBB wants to use him .vs. how the FO has told JBB to use him because he may no longer be in our long-term plans.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#23 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:08 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying we didn't do a good job of closing this game out, but sometimes we start turning the ball over willy nilly when a team pressures us and we've blown leads just because the other team started playing hard and hitting shots.

Anyway, something to watch for now, but don't be surprised if Sexton's decision to turn down our extension offer doesn't change how we use him, how we promote him, etc, etc.


Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


lol, are you a Cavs fan or a Sexton fan?

We're treating him more than fine, you're just getting more of a glimpse of how JBB wants to use him .vs. how the FO has told JBB to use him because he may no longer be in our long-term plans.


Oh, I'm a Cavs fan, but that doesn't mean I can't also want the best for the players I like. I mean also with the reported Knicks trade last year was what Toppin, Knox and one or both of the 1sts, if it was even just the 2 1sts, then that would've/could've been been Jalen and Keon Johnson which could've provided additional depth at the 2 and 3 positions, especially if the Lauri trade still happened. If the Cavs are going to go away from using Sexton as a walking bucket, why not find a team that will let him be one and find something that fits more what the Cavs want out of Sexton.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#24 » by FranchisePlayer » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:17 pm



First of many this season. Lol, can almost envision The Finnisher saying to Joker "next time step aside, punk".
MrSparkle wrote:I don't see a scenario here or there where Lauri becomes the "7-pick we thought he could be." If you remove his 3P ability, he's worse than Felicio by a mile.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#25 » by Andri » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:02 pm

yoyoboy wrote:Gotta give props to Love. He played a hell of a game yesterday even defensively. Bringing him off the bench might have revitalized him.



IMO Ricky could have played a large role in engage him again
He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#26 » by jbk1234 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:04 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
THen I don't know why Garland was in if it was cuz of defense cuz he kept getting blown by and caught sleeping when his man was cutting to the rim. Also the Cavs were never really in danger. IIRC they never got closer to within 3 of the Cavs in the 4th quarter.


Oh, I'm not saying we didn't do a good job of closing this game out, but sometimes we start turning the ball over willy nilly when a team pressures us and we've blown leads just because the other team started playing hard and hitting shots.

Anyway, something to watch for now, but don't be surprised if Sexton's decision to turn down our extension offer doesn't change how we use him, how we promote him, etc, etc.


Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


I would've taken the rumored Herro+ offer. In fairness to the organization, that Allen/Mobley front court looks absolutely lethal. Mobley is much further along than most people, myself included, thought he would be. Had the Cavs know they'd be good enough to transition away from a Portlandesque offense to something more closely resembling a Spurs offense, they might have pulled the trigger. It's important to keep your options open as a rebuilding team so I get not moving him before. Mobley could've been unplayable his rookie year. It's still way, way early in the season, but it's hard to see the Cavs embracing a Sexton centric offense now. If he's willing to embrace a Ginobli role, I'm happy to keep him. But if his individual success is more important than the team's success, then it's probably best to move him.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#27 » by Revenged25 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:17 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying we didn't do a good job of closing this game out, but sometimes we start turning the ball over willy nilly when a team pressures us and we've blown leads just because the other team started playing hard and hitting shots.

Anyway, something to watch for now, but don't be surprised if Sexton's decision to turn down our extension offer doesn't change how we use him, how we promote him, etc, etc.


Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


I would've taken the rumored Herro+ offer. In fairness to the organization, that Allen/Mobley front court looks absolutely lethal. Mobley is much further along than most people, myself included, thought he would be. Had the Cavs know they'd be good enough to transition away from a Portlandesque offense to something more closely resembling a Spurs offense, they might have pulled the trigger. It's important to keep your options open as a rebuilding team so I get not moving him before. Mobley could've been unplayable his rookie year. It's still way, way early in the season, but it's hard to see the Cavs embracing a Sexton centric offense now. If he's willing to embrace a Ginobli role, I'm happy to keep him. But if his individual success is more important than the team's success, then it's probably best to move him.


Honestly I think the Herro + for Sexton is still trash value, honestly I think Herro is extremely overrated and if you look even his strong start has him taking a lot of shots, more than Sexton even last year. Sexton could work well in the Ginobli role but it doesn't even seem like the Cavs want to use him in that role properly.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#28 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:28 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


lol, are you a Cavs fan or a Sexton fan?

We're treating him more than fine, you're just getting more of a glimpse of how JBB wants to use him .vs. how the FO has told JBB to use him because he may no longer be in our long-term plans.


Oh, I'm a Cavs fan, but that doesn't mean I can't also want the best for the players I like. I mean also with the reported Knicks trade last year was what Toppin, Knox and one or both of the 1sts, if it was even just the 2 1sts, then that would've/could've been been Jalen and Keon Johnson which could've provided additional depth at the 2 and 3 positions, especially if the Lauri trade still happened. If the Cavs are going to go away from using Sexton as a walking bucket, why not find a team that will let him be one and find something that fits more what the Cavs want out of Sexton.


Heh, I'm fine with trading Collin as long as it's too our advantage.

Knox is a reclamation project, Toppin is a player we didn't need after Mobley fell in our laps, and the Cavs had their sights set on getting a player with All-Star potential or a top-10 pick. If the Knicks picks could have been turned in to that, we may have pulled the trigger.

The Knicks seem to have rebounded pretty well snagging Kemba for the MLE, and Fournier for the kind of deal we probably wished Collin would have signed (4/$78M) and gave up next to nothing I believe.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#29 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:31 pm

Andri wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:Gotta give props to Love. He played a hell of a game yesterday even defensively. Bringing him off the bench might have revitalized him.



IMO Ricky could have played a large role in engage him again


I'm not convinced Love was disengaged so much as dealing with injury and the depression from getting hurt yet again.

Alas, who knows how long this stretch will last before his back gives out or whatever ...
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#30 » by jbk1234 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:34 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Andri wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:Gotta give props to Love. He played a hell of a game yesterday even defensively. Bringing him off the bench might have revitalized him.



IMO Ricky could have played a large role in engage him again


I'm not convinced Love was disengaged so much as dealing with injury and the depression from getting hurt yet again.

Alas, who knows how long this stretch will last before his back gives out or whatever ...


Also, he was fat and out of shape.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#31 » by jbk1234 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:40 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


I would've taken the rumored Herro+ offer. In fairness to the organization, that Allen/Mobley front court looks absolutely lethal. Mobley is much further along than most people, myself included, thought he would be. Had the Cavs know they'd be good enough to transition away from a Portlandesque offense to something more closely resembling a Spurs offense, they might have pulled the trigger. It's important to keep your options open as a rebuilding team so I get not moving him before. Mobley could've been unplayable his rookie year. It's still way, way early in the season, but it's hard to see the Cavs embracing a Sexton centric offense now. If he's willing to embrace a Ginobli role, I'm happy to keep him. But if his individual success is more important than the team's success, then it's probably best to move him.


Honestly I think the Herro + for Sexton is still trash value, honestly I think Herro is extremely overrated and if you look even his strong start has him taking a lot of shots, more than Sexton even last year. Sexton could work well in the Ginobli role but it doesn't even seem like the Cavs want to use him in that role properly.


I mean if there was a two-way wing available that was my strong preference. I would've added value to a Sexton/Barrett swap. But that wasn't on the table and the Knick offer had very little actual value behind it. Duerte and Bouknight were getting selected before they were picking. They couldn't trade up to get either one of them and they ended up trading the pick they actually offered for Sexton for some heavily protected future first. Toppin became a non-starter as soon as we selected Mobley.

I thought a guard who could come in off the bench, space the floor, who had that extra year on his rookie deal, and hopefully a future first, was a decent return when the Cavs weren't dealing from a position of strength.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#32 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:43 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying we didn't do a good job of closing this game out, but sometimes we start turning the ball over willy nilly when a team pressures us and we've blown leads just because the other team started playing hard and hitting shots.

Anyway, something to watch for now, but don't be surprised if Sexton's decision to turn down our extension offer doesn't change how we use him, how we promote him, etc, etc.


Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


I would've taken the rumored Herro+ offer. In fairness to the organization, that Allen/Mobley front court looks absolutely lethal. Mobley is much further along than most people, myself included, thought he would be. Had the Cavs know they'd be good enough to transition away from a Portlandesque offense to something more closely resembling a Spurs offense, they might have pulled the trigger. It's important to keep your options open as a rebuilding team so I get not moving him before. Mobley could've been unplayable his rookie year. It's still way, way early in the season, but it's hard to see the Cavs embracing a Sexton centric offense now. If he's willing to embrace a Ginobli role, I'm happy to keep him. But if his individual success is more important than the team's success, then it's probably best to move him.


I'm sure the Cavs were concerned with the chemistry/culture fit with Herro, not to mention his 6'3" wingspan doesn't exactly bring us all the benefits you might imagine getting from his 6'5" height. He's taller than Garland, Sexton, McCollum, and Lillard, but has a shorter wingspan than any of them.

So, would we really be moving more towards a Spurs offense?
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#33 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:45 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Andri wrote:

IMO Ricky could have played a large role in engage him again


I'm not convinced Love was disengaged so much as dealing with injury and the depression from getting hurt yet again.

Alas, who knows how long this stretch will last before his back gives out or whatever ...


Also, he was fat and out of shape.


Comes under dealing with injury.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#34 » by jbk1234 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:47 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Honestly if this is the way we are going to treat him I'd rather just have the Knicks offer and let Sexton find a place that's going to let him shine.


I would've taken the rumored Herro+ offer. In fairness to the organization, that Allen/Mobley front court looks absolutely lethal. Mobley is much further along than most people, myself included, thought he would be. Had the Cavs know they'd be good enough to transition away from a Portlandesque offense to something more closely resembling a Spurs offense, they might have pulled the trigger. It's important to keep your options open as a rebuilding team so I get not moving him before. Mobley could've been unplayable his rookie year. It's still way, way early in the season, but it's hard to see the Cavs embracing a Sexton centric offense now. If he's willing to embrace a Ginobli role, I'm happy to keep him. But if his individual success is more important than the team's success, then it's probably best to move him.


I'm sure the Cavs were concerned with the chemistry/culture fit with Herro, not to mention his 6'3" wingspan doesn't exactly bring us all the benefits you might imagine getting from his 6'5" height. He's taller than Garland, Sexton, McCollum, and Lillard, but has a shorter wingspan than any of them.

So, would we really be moving more towards a Spurs offense?


We'd have a catch-and-shoot guard even if he was coming off the bench as a sixth man. How much would that be worth next Garland or Rubio with our current big man rotation? Also, he had another year of team control on his rookie deal.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#35 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:59 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I would've taken the rumored Herro+ offer. In fairness to the organization, that Allen/Mobley front court looks absolutely lethal. Mobley is much further along than most people, myself included, thought he would be. Had the Cavs know they'd be good enough to transition away from a Portlandesque offense to something more closely resembling a Spurs offense, they might have pulled the trigger. It's important to keep your options open as a rebuilding team so I get not moving him before. Mobley could've been unplayable his rookie year. It's still way, way early in the season, but it's hard to see the Cavs embracing a Sexton centric offense now. If he's willing to embrace a Ginobli role, I'm happy to keep him. But if his individual success is more important than the team's success, then it's probably best to move him.


I'm sure the Cavs were concerned with the chemistry/culture fit with Herro, not to mention his 6'3" wingspan doesn't exactly bring us all the benefits you might imagine getting from his 6'5" height. He's taller than Garland, Sexton, McCollum, and Lillard, but has a shorter wingspan than any of them.

So, would we really be moving more towards a Spurs offense?


We'd have a catch-and-shoot guard even if he was coming off the bench as a sixth man. How much would that be worth next Garland or Rubio with our current big man rotation? Also, he had another year of team control on his rookie deal.


We didn't address all our problems this past off-season, clearly, but finding a catch and shoot guard with a wingspan >= 6'3" who can come off the bench and knock down 3's isn't thaaaat hard to find. Heck, we might call one of those guys we had in Summer league / pre-season if that's the bar.

But even if Herro is the real deal, it doesn't really matter if we decided we didn't want his personality in the locker-room around our new franchise player.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#36 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:14 pm

fwiw, I think Darius and Collin are both still figuring out how they fit under this new triple tower paradigm. Collin like a lot of scorers seems to operate with a switch. We see him looking to set up the bigs for a bit, then we see that switch flip, and he starts trying to score on his own. He hasn't figured out how to do both seamlessly.

It's easier with Garland since he's so willing to move the ball and defer, but otoh, if he learns to create gravity he will open even more things up for our bigs.

It's not easy with questionable spacing, hopefully Rubio can help them find other ways to exploit a packed defense.
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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#37 » by jbk1234 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:35 am

JonFromVA wrote:fwiw, I think Darius and Collin are both still figuring out how they fit under this new triple tower paradigm. Collin like a lot of scorers seems to operate with a switch. We see him looking to set up the bigs for a bit, then we see that switch flip, and he starts trying to score on his own. He hasn't figured out how to do both seamlessly.

It's easier with Garland since he's so willing to move the ball and defer, but otoh, if he learns to create gravity he will open even more things up for our bigs.

It's not easy with questionable spacing, hopefully Rubio can help them find other ways to exploit a packed defense.
My thing is that if our bigs are shooting on uber high efficiency, I prefer until the opposing team decides to leave the guy defending Garland or Sexton on an island before our guards decide to be real aggressive. If the help defenders are overplaying the pass, even better. Play to your strength and then make them pay for adjusting.

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Re: GT #4, Cavaliers @ Nuggets, 25 October 2021, 9:00 PM ET 

Post#38 » by JonFromVA » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:39 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:fwiw, I think Darius and Collin are both still figuring out how they fit under this new triple tower paradigm. Collin like a lot of scorers seems to operate with a switch. We see him looking to set up the bigs for a bit, then we see that switch flip, and he starts trying to score on his own. He hasn't figured out how to do both seamlessly.

It's easier with Garland since he's so willing to move the ball and defer, but otoh, if he learns to create gravity he will open even more things up for our bigs.

It's not easy with questionable spacing, hopefully Rubio can help them find other ways to exploit a packed defense.
My thing is that if our bigs are shooting on uber high efficiency, I prefer until the opposing team decides to leave the guy defending Garland or Sexton on an island before our guards decide to be real aggressive. If the help defenders are overplaying the pass, even better. Play to your strength and then make them pay for adjusting.


Its tricky because while the D needs to respect the lob or the dump off, they still will have 2 of their own bigs near the paint.

And even if Mobley or Allen use their jumper, until the defenders decide its worth the bother trying to contest they will favor staying in the paint making things harder for a guard to get to the rim.

So it's more about getting the ball moving to get defenders moving and looking for those little windows where they can score. Getting points in the flow is ideal and on their drives reading those 2+ help defenders and if nobody can help in time ... just go score.

But with 3 shooters in the starting lineup they should be able to pull two defenders out of the paint and then hopefully lose the on the ball defender with a move or a screen.

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