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GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET

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GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#1 » by ducler » Mon Nov 1, 2021 9:25 pm

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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#2 » by JonFromVA » Mon Nov 1, 2021 10:23 pm

Last time we played, our defense was still taking shape, we were missing Darius, and though Kevin played, he didn't contribute anything. So, hopefully we see a better showing from the Cavs.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#3 » by El Hespiritu » Mon Nov 1, 2021 11:40 pm

Jarrett Allen destroying everything at sight out there.

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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#4 » by Neonblazer » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:19 am

Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#5 » by LesGrossman » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:22 am

Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.

Yeah his decision making has been very, very poor so far. No feel for the game. Can improve through time
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#6 » by Neonblazer » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:30 am

LesGrossman wrote:
Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.

Yeah his decision making has been very, very poor so far. No feel for the game. Can improve through time

He is like polar opposite of Markkanen when it comes to shooting. Markkanen was 1-7 at 3p and still took that 8th shot and hit it. It will be really hard for Sexton to improve as a shooter if he is afraid of missing shots.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#7 » by El Hespiritu » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:47 am

Not bad at all-

8 games later, we're on 50% and showing some recognizable bball.

The starters play run and gun with a pressing defense half court.
Not a zone but they sorta accept most of the switches because whatever happens, there's always a 7 footer at hand to contest any three or a couple of Bigs to close over anybody who steps in the paint.

At times the offense looks raw but Garlandas is (slowly) improving on game reading and even Sextonto, from time to time, gets his Inner Sextonto shut up (Inner Sextonto is always whispering to Colin's ears: ...take the ball and ram against everything... take the ball and ram against everything... take the ball ram against everything...) and tries to pass instead.

Jarrett Bobobo-bo, Mueble and Mari Karmen stay aggressive both ends and just with that the TontoLandas starting lineup manages to display good 1st quarters.
Not so much on third ones, when the opponent has his rhythm and doesn't allow us to overwhelm them by pure hyper-activity.
2nd unit plays fast pace as well but visibly more controlled and harmonic.

Defensive hustle looks nice whoever is at court.
That's on J.B. I guess.

I know Clecaus made as well a fair 50% W-L Late Pre Season last year and it was a Big Fat Tank at the end, but sensations were different back then: everything looked like balancing on a string.
Eventually, injures + FO's rondeau of trades disrupted the whole thing.
31 different lineups during RS.

This year, seems as if there is a more solid base to grow and to not bend the head down when bad moments arrive.

When, not if.

We'll see if it's juts wishful thinking or actually there's something different this year.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#8 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:51 am

El Hespiritu wrote:Not bad at all-

8 games later, we're on 50% and showing some recognizable bball.

The starters play run and gun with a pressing defense half court.
Not a zone but they sorta accept most of the switches because whatever happens, there's always a 7 footer at hand to contest any three or a couple of Bigs to close over anybody who steps in the paint.

At times the offense looks raw but Garlandas is (slowly) improving on game reading and even Sextonto, from time to time, gets his Inner Sextonto shut up (Inner Sextonto is always whispering to Colin's ears: ...take the ball and ram against everything... take the ball and ram against everything... take the ball ram against everything...) and tries to pass instead.

Jarrett Bobobo-bo, Mueble and Mari Karmen stay aggressive both ends and just with that the TontoLandas starting lineup manages to display good 1st quarters.
Not so much on third ones, when the opponent has his rhythm and doesn't allow us to overwhelm them by pure hyper-activity.
2nd unit plays fast pace as well but visibly more controlled and harmonic.

Defensive hustle looks nice whoever is at court.
That's on J.B. I guess.

I know Clecaus made as well a fair 50% W-L Late Pre Season last year and it was a Big Fat Tank at the end, but sensations were different back then: everything looked like balancing on a string.
Eventually, injures + FO's rondeau of trades disrupted the whole thing.
31 different lineups during RS.

This year, seems as if there is a more solid base to grow and to not bend the head down when bad moments arrive.

When, not if.

We'll see if it's juts wishful thinking or actually there's something different this year.


You're grasping this team very quickly... nice
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#9 » by jbk1234 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:45 pm

Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.


Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#10 » by toooskies » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:57 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.


Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.

Well, he is having to learn to play a different way than he has ever played before. It isn't surprising that he's having a hard time figuring out what his fit is now that the offense isn't focused on him.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 2:07 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.


Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.

Well, he is having to learn to play a different way than he has ever played before. It isn't surprising that he's having a hard time figuring out what his fit is now that the offense isn't focused on him.


Agreed. It's just that I suspect now more than ever the Cavs would be better served with a more traditional 2.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#12 » by toooskies » Tue Nov 2, 2021 2:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.

Well, he is having to learn to play a different way than he has ever played before. It isn't surprising that he's having a hard time figuring out what his fit is now that the offense isn't focused on him.


Agreed. It's just that I suspect now more than ever the Cavs would be better served with a more traditional 2.

Immediately? Yes, a Buddy Hield or Gary Harris or Huerter or Fournier (to pick a middle class of player that should be available) probably fits best to win some regular season games because they know the role that Collin is just learning now.

But if Collin can figure out when to be an in-the-flow, shoot-open-shots guy and when to take over the game, he can still be the go-to scorer that every team needs. I'm not sure Garland, Mobley, or anybody else is going to be that guy.

But the whole team (except Cedi) is in a shooting slump from being on the road for so long, and we're still 4-4. Collin has done step 1, which is to not dominate the ball too much at the expense of his teammates, and we're seeing positive things as a result. It's not surprising that learning team offense takes awhile given that we haven't had opportunities to do that with COVID and a constantly changing cast of teammates and a tanking team that hasn't played anything resembling a real offense.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#13 » by jbk1234 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 2:35 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Well, he is having to learn to play a different way than he has ever played before. It isn't surprising that he's having a hard time figuring out what his fit is now that the offense isn't focused on him.


Agreed. It's just that I suspect now more than ever the Cavs would be better served with a more traditional 2.

Immediately? Yes, a Buddy Hield or Gary Harris or Huerter or Fournier (to pick a middle class of player that should be available) probably fits best to win some regular season games because they know the role that Collin is just learning now.

But if Collin can figure out when to be an in-the-flow, shoot-open-shots guy and when to take over the game, he can still be the go-to scorer that every team needs. I'm not sure Garland, Mobley, or anybody else is going to be that guy.

But the whole team (except Cedi) is in a shooting slump from being on the road for so long, and we're still 4-4. Collin has done step 1, which is to not dominate the ball too much at the expense of his teammates, and we're seeing positive things as a result. It's not surprising that learning team offense takes awhile given that we haven't had opportunities to do that with COVID and a constantly changing cast of teammates and a tanking team that hasn't played anything resembling a real offense.


Sexton will get his chances, if for no other reason, the Cavs are in year 4 without even a replacement level backup at SG on the roster. If Garland is struggling, I don't get angry when Rubio gets the call. It's a nice option to have and a necessary one when you're actually trying to compete with young players.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#14 » by toooskies » Tue Nov 2, 2021 2:53 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Agreed. It's just that I suspect now more than ever the Cavs would be better served with a more traditional 2.

Immediately? Yes, a Buddy Hield or Gary Harris or Huerter or Fournier (to pick a middle class of player that should be available) probably fits best to win some regular season games because they know the role that Collin is just learning now.

But if Collin can figure out when to be an in-the-flow, shoot-open-shots guy and when to take over the game, he can still be the go-to scorer that every team needs. I'm not sure Garland, Mobley, or anybody else is going to be that guy.

But the whole team (except Cedi) is in a shooting slump from being on the road for so long, and we're still 4-4. Collin has done step 1, which is to not dominate the ball too much at the expense of his teammates, and we're seeing positive things as a result. It's not surprising that learning team offense takes awhile given that we haven't had opportunities to do that with COVID and a constantly changing cast of teammates and a tanking team that hasn't played anything resembling a real offense.


Sexton will get his chances, if for no other reason, the Cavs are in year 4 without even a replacement level backup at SG on the roster. If Garland is struggling, I don't get angry when Rubio gets the call. It's a nice option to have and a necessary one when you're actually trying to compete with young players.

We haven't hesitated to run Garland/Rubio if Sexton isn't making it happen, and with Cedi's shooting the ball like the free agent we wished we signed this offseason, Okoro can spend most of his time as the backup 2.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#15 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 2, 2021 3:09 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.


Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.


I really don't get this train of thought ... this is exactly how the Rockets lost a playoff game missing 27 3pters in a row.

Collin is struggling with his 3pt shot, of course his confidence in it isn't where it should be. He's barely shooting better than Evan who also decided to forgo shooting an open 3pter to attempt a drive in the game if I recall.

It's been a long road trip and everyone is a little dinged up, Collin being the latest victim of an ankle twist. Playing defense and running on offense the way they've been does take a toll.

Do we need reliable 3pt shooting? Yes, absolutely. The question for JBB is how to get there. We forced it out of Darius in one game by probably telling him the game was lost unless he could heat up and we let him shoot until he found the range; but that's not what JBB wants to normally do.

Most shooters need to get in a shooting rhythm. They can focus on getting to sweet spots and taking advantage of mid-range shots to help lock in the range/mechanics. Back before Morey ball it was conventional wisdom for a struggling shooter to take a step or two inside the 3pt line to get a slightly easier shot and then work his way back out to the 3pt line. This actually makes sense for shooters missing short due to fatigue.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 3:21 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Neonblazer wrote:Sexton passing on that open 3 to dribble to basket hurt alot.


Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.


I really don't get this train of thought ... this is exactly how the Rockets lost a playoff game missing 27 3pters in a row.

Collin is struggling with his 3pt shot, of course his confidence in it isn't where it should be. He's barely shooting better than Evan who also decided to forgo shooting an open 3pter to attempt a drive in the game if I recall.

It's been a long road trip and everyone is a little dinged up, Collin being the latest victim of an ankle twist. Playing defense and running on offense the way they've been does take a toll.

Do we need reliable 3pt shooting? Yes, absolutely. The question for JBB is how to get there. We forced it out of Darius in one game by probably telling him the game was lost unless he could heat up and we let him shoot until he found the range; but that's not what JBB wants to normally do.

Most shooters need to get in a shooting rhythm. They can focus on getting to sweet spots and taking advantage of mid-range shots to help lock in the range/mechanics. Back before Morey ball it was conventional wisdom for a struggling shooter to take a step or two inside the 3pt line to get a slightly easier shot and then work his way back out to the 3pt line. This actually makes sense for shooters missing short due to fatigue.


Okay, but Jarrett Jack would do that and still clank it off the front of the rim.

Seriously though, if you're a guard who is wide open from three because you're man is helping on a teammate, you have to take that shot. Whether it actually goes in is secondary.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#17 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 2, 2021 3:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.

Well, he is having to learn to play a different way than he has ever played before. It isn't surprising that he's having a hard time figuring out what his fit is now that the offense isn't focused on him.


Agreed. It's just that I suspect now more than ever the Cavs would be better served with a more traditional 2.


No guarantee our offense/defense doesn't drag down their production as well.

In terms of team TS% Sexton is right there with Garland, slightly behind Mobley and behind Cedi and Allen. Everyone else on the team is struggling a lot more than those guys.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#18 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 2, 2021 3:36 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, he's not in a position to do that anymore. He has take that shot. If it continues, his teammates will stop passing it to him. We're already at a point where he often times seems like a passenger along for the ride with the other four guys.


I really don't get this train of thought ... this is exactly how the Rockets lost a playoff game missing 27 3pters in a row.

Collin is struggling with his 3pt shot, of course his confidence in it isn't where it should be. He's barely shooting better than Evan who also decided to forgo shooting an open 3pter to attempt a drive in the game if I recall.

It's been a long road trip and everyone is a little dinged up, Collin being the latest victim of an ankle twist. Playing defense and running on offense the way they've been does take a toll.

Do we need reliable 3pt shooting? Yes, absolutely. The question for JBB is how to get there. We forced it out of Darius in one game by probably telling him the game was lost unless he could heat up and we let him shoot until he found the range; but that's not what JBB wants to normally do.

Most shooters need to get in a shooting rhythm. They can focus on getting to sweet spots and taking advantage of mid-range shots to help lock in the range/mechanics. Back before Morey ball it was conventional wisdom for a struggling shooter to take a step or two inside the 3pt line to get a slightly easier shot and then work his way back out to the 3pt line. This actually makes sense for shooters missing short due to fatigue.


Okay, but Jarrett Jack would do that and still clank it off the front of the rim.

Seriously though, if you're a guard who is wide open from three because you're man is helping on a teammate, you have to take that shot. Whether it actually goes in is secondary.


They're wide open because the defense doesn't think they can make the shot ... what makes you think the defense is wrong?

Spacing/gravity doesn't come from putting someone at the 3pt line, it comes from the certainty that they will sink a 3pter if not defended closely.

There was one play where best I could tell the Cavs screwed up because everyone but Evan started cutting to the rim at the same time; but it actually worked out because Mobley's defender slid off him to help, then Evan cut for an easy dunk.

In other words, even offensive chaos can be more productive than ineffective spacing and predictable bricking.

Does this need to change? Yes. Do we need to get our shooters going? Yes. Do we need to concede games because someone was encouraged to keep bricking 3pters? Heck, no.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#19 » by Neonblazer » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:26 pm

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=697&GameID=0022100094&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS%20Sexton%207%27%20Pullup%20Jump%20Shot&sct=plot

This was actually the play. I think the biggest problem here is that Sexton was positioned to shoot the 3 but decided otherwise. So when the play was to get that kind of shot off but the player decides not shoot it then its a problem. Actually at the end you can see both Markkanen and Garland waving their hands because they are open so it makes that decision that Sexton took even worse.
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Re: GT #8, Cavaliers @ Hornets, 1st November 2021, 7:00 PM ET 

Post#20 » by toooskies » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:47 pm

Neonblazer wrote:https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=697&GameID=0022100094&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS%20Sexton%207%27%20Pullup%20Jump%20Shot&sct=plot

This was actually the play. I think the biggest problem here is that Sexton was positioned to shoot the 3 but decided otherwise. So when the play was to get that kind of shot off but the player decides not shoot it then its a problem. Actually at the end you can see both Markkanen and Garland waving their hands because they are open so it makes that decision that Sexton took even worse.

They were only open after Sexton was deep into the paint, there wasn't a great pass available before he started dribbling.

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