ImageImageImage

The Cavaliers without Collin

Moderator: jbk1234

JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 8,714
And1: 2,591
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#1 » by JonFromVA » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:42 pm

It's time to start thinking where this team is at if we were to move on from Collin.

From a statistical POV it's not going to be pretty because Collin wasn't even playing up to his own standards before he got hurt, but so far we're 2-1 without Collin and 3-1 if you care to count the Knicks game which he only played the first 12 minutes of.

On the season, we are -6.2 pp100 with Collin on the floor, and +8.4 pp100 when he's off ... which is pretty brutal.

It still feels like there are lulls in the offense when we could have used his scoring, but hopefully we'll be getting some of our scorers back soon (assuming they do score ...).
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 44,708
And1: 25,709
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#2 » by jbk1234 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:14 pm

I've been pretty clear about where I think Collin needs to improve, and how difficult it will be to build with him as a starter next to Garland, but this particular sample size is simply too small.

I'm not saying things are going to work out with him here, or that I wouldn't listen to offers, but they don't need to just give him away. I think he could actually play on the Q.O. for the Cavs next year.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
Jorgeglez7
Sophomore
Posts: 102
And1: 86
Joined: Oct 24, 2019
 

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#3 » by Jorgeglez7 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:41 pm

I really think we could use Collin Sexton as a scoring guard coming off the bench in the 6th man role. At least for now. He is a good slasher, his lack of basketball IQ should be less evident against second units and can always be combined with either Garland or Rubio as primary ball handlers while the other one rests. I also think that his one on one defense is actually quite good, which could help stopping the opposite 6th/7th man scoring guard from the other team (aka Jordan Clarkson, etc).

Another reason that for me supports this argument is that he can be focused in just scoring and not thinking too much lifting off the pressure of his shoulders.

Moreover, sharing time with Garland and Rubio having less responsibility will help him learn how to run a team eventually.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 8,714
And1: 2,591
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#4 » by JonFromVA » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:58 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I'm not saying things are going to work out with him here, or that I wouldn't listen to offers, but they don't need to just give him away. I think he could actually play on the Q.O. for the Cavs next year.


I don't doubt his drive to prove he's worth the max, but this meniscus tear (and the fact he isn't represented by Klutch) might convince him to at the very least accept a prove it contract that gives him some security; and maybe even would let us justify using him as a 6th man if we discover we don't want/need him starting.
Revenged25
Analyst
Posts: 3,037
And1: 954
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#5 » by Revenged25 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:18 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm not saying things are going to work out with him here, or that I wouldn't listen to offers, but they don't need to just give him away. I think he could actually play on the Q.O. for the Cavs next year.


I don't doubt his drive to prove he's worth the max, but this meniscus tear (and the fact he isn't represented by Klutch) might convince him to at the very least accept a prove it contract that gives him some security; and maybe even would let us justify using him as a 6th man if we discover we don't want/need him starting.


Any prove it deal that he might take would be at most a 3 year deal. Honestly this Cavs team needs someone that can go get buckets, sure he's been off to start the year, but we know what he can do as a scorer creating for himself as well as a catch and shooter player when he's on and that's hard to find in the NBA with his efficiency. He's been in the Booker/Lavine/Beal/Mitchell etc level of scoring ability and efficiency. Guys like Jordan Clarkson might be able to get similar points, but are doing it less efficiently while others might score at the same efficiency, but they aren't able to create their own shot well and need to be setup. Finding guards that can score efficiently while also creating their own shot is hard to find and they're typically paid well.
mg
Head Coach
Posts: 6,342
And1: 2,794
Joined: Jun 12, 2003

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#6 » by mg » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:33 am

I know other guys such as Markannen have also been out but the Cavs have been unable to score 100 points in a game since Collin got injured.
Revenged25
Analyst
Posts: 3,037
And1: 954
Joined: Jun 05, 2018
   

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#7 » by Revenged25 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:48 am

mg wrote:I know other guys such as Markannen have also been out but the Cavs have been unable to score 100 points in a game since Collin got injured.


Sexton gets a bad rap, but he's always been improving and he actually gets a lot more hate he deserves since most people still keep figuring in his rookie year preconceptions and ignoring his changes. Looking at just this year when I've seen people say he's still a blackhole on offense, which is really damn stupid IMO, they only look at the bad possessions of his ignoring the good, while doing the opposite on both Garland and Rubio when they've taken more bad possession than Sexton with worse results and only highlighting the good. Normally the games when Garland/Rubio limited their bad possessions it's because they ran the clock down the 7-8 seconds, passed it to Sexton hoping he makes a play, and then people blame Sexton for driving into a bad situation when he was put in a bad situation to begin with. The fact that he still was converting or drawing a foul in those situations is a testament to his ability.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 8,714
And1: 2,591
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#8 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:24 am

I just hope he doesn't permanently hurt his knee trying to come back too quick to earn his next contract. It sounds like he will try to rehab it without surgery. Someone I respect noticed that when you watch him in person, the torque he subjects his body to because of his start/stop speed is akin to a miniā€Zion.
KuruptedCav
Starter
Posts: 2,325
And1: 807
Joined: Dec 15, 2004

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#9 » by KuruptedCav » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:15 pm

It depends. Do the Cavs add Max Christie or Josh Minott in the draft?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 8,714
And1: 2,591
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#10 » by JonFromVA » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:54 pm

Would have loved to have had Collin active .vs. the Nets.

We still haven't scored 100pts since he went down.
TheLand13
Ballboy
Posts: 48
And1: 42
Joined: Aug 31, 2021
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#11 » by TheLand13 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:53 pm

The problem with Sexton is that it limits the Cavaliers ceiling. A duo of Mobley/Allen (both of whom are guaranteed to be with Cleveland for at least five years) along with Okoro gives this team the potential to be one of the best defensive squads for years to come. A couple people here have pointed out that the Cavaliers haven't scored 100 points since Sexton got injured. Okay, so what? They were still at least winning games. And they've continued to look competitive against some of the top teams in the NBA despite missing key players, including the two I just mentioned above. Not every team can win a championship based just on defense alone, but the key pieces the Cavaliers already have are skilled enough to the point where you can get away with not needing a guy like Sexton on your team.

If Cleveland cannot move on from him, then at the very least they need to reconsider what they really want out of him going forward. If a gun is to my head and I am being forced to keep the guy, I am not starting him alongside Garland. I have no issues with him being my sixth man who provides me with scoring with the second unit. But frankly, I would much rather see what teams would be willing to give up for him.

The only issue with that is the options are limited right now. A guy like Gary Trent JR would be a picture perfect fit for this Cavaliers team and I really wish we could have gotten our hands on him before he broke out like he has this year. He's a scrappy defensive player who can stretch the floor and shows no fear. At the beginning of the season, with hindsight obviously being applied here, I would have loved to have seen Cleveland say screw it and give Sexton away to Toronto for Trent. Of course, that trade is impossible to do this early for obvious reasons, but a player like him completes the puzzle that is missing for this team and propels them to that next level that they need to reach. It's on Cleveland to find a player who can play the two guard, that has the ability to defend, and can help you on offense in some capacity. Of course, until Kevin Love's contract goes away, that's easier said than done.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 8,714
And1: 2,591
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#12 » by JonFromVA » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:10 pm

Oh, there's no doubt we'd all love to upgrade our roster at literally any position, the trick is pulling that off and/or keeping the pieces we have at a price that doesn't preclude us from pulling that off.

It's our triple tower frontcourt, though, which gives us the possibility of running with a small backcourt and still defending; so we might as well explore that - player health be willing.

Fact is we have this thread because we need to make a decision on Collin --- I have high hopes for Isaac, but at this point with his TS% sitting at 42.1% he's just not an NBA player. His defense would have to be crazy good to make up for that, but we are -4.1 pp100 when Isaac is on the floor, vs +0.9 when he's off. So, so far it's not.
RiRuHoops
Pro Prospect
Posts: 923
And1: 1,123
Joined: Sep 06, 2019
   

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#13 » by RiRuHoops » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:10 am

JonFromVA wrote:Would have loved to have had Collin active .vs. the Nets.

We still haven't scored 100pts since he went down.


I don't think it has a lot to do with Sexton. Cavs play at slower pace while being short on bodies, put up less shots, score less but also give up less on the other end. On & off numbers also don't show that Sexton had any major positive impact as Cavs have worse eFg% and Ortg with him on the floor.
JonFromVA
General Manager
Posts: 8,714
And1: 2,591
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#14 » by JonFromVA » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:16 am

RiRuHoops wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Would have loved to have had Collin active .vs. the Nets.

We still haven't scored 100pts since he went down.


I don't think it has a lot to do with Sexton. Cavs play at slower pace while being short on bodies, put up less shots, score less but also give up less on the other end. On & off numbers also don't show that Sexton had any major positive impact as Cavs have worse eFg% and Ortg with him on the floor.


The scoring droughts are problematic.

Our numbers with Collin aren't going to reflect his potential value because he was adapting to his new role and not shooting well.

Alas with him out for the season he won't have a chance to change anything - but can't imagine a worst case situation for his free agency.

His Brinks Truck is looking Hot Wheels size.

His trade value has likely dropped to "why bother even talking".
User avatar
gflem
Veteran
Posts: 2,900
And1: 223
Joined: Sep 11, 2004

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#15 » by gflem » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:04 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
RiRuHoops wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Would have loved to have had Collin active .vs. the Nets.

We still haven't scored 100pts since he went down.


I don't think it has a lot to do with Sexton. Cavs play at slower pace while being short on bodies, put up less shots, score less but also give up less on the other end. On & off numbers also don't show that Sexton had any major positive impact as Cavs have worse eFg% and Ortg with him on the floor.


The scoring droughts are problematic.

Our numbers with Collin aren't going to reflect his potential value because he was adapting to his new role and not shooting well.

Alas with him out for the season he won't have a chance to change anything - but can't imagine a worst case situation for his free agency.

His Brinks Truck is looking Hot Wheels size.

His trade value has likely dropped to "why bother even talking".

Yeah, it looks like the QO is a real possibility. For the team, they really need to get everyone back to see how they look without Sexton in order to gauge what his value to the team is. I feel bad for Collin in that this happened at the worst possible time for him.
Harper4Ferry?
Starter
Posts: 2,174
And1: 64
Joined: Jun 29, 2002

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#16 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:18 pm

Guys like Wesley Matthews got brinks trucks after an Achilles tear. All it takes is one team and Colin gets 20-25 million avg. at least there should be some interesting sign and trade possibilities.
toooskies
Senior
Posts: 679
And1: 255
Joined: Jul 18, 2013
     

Re: The Cavaliers without Collin 

Post#17 » by toooskies » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:23 pm

I think the Cavs will re-offer whatever they were offering in the off-season but will be less likely to meet Collin in the middle. I expect him to sign for $20m/year on day 1 of free agency.

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers