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Will they resign sexton?

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Re: We they resign sexton? 

Post#41 » by jbk1234 » Wed May 4, 2022 5:36 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:You're talking about guys in Kemba and Rose who are over 30 and no potential to outplay their contract. The team-friendliness is not really due to their salary but that they have team options in their last year, so they should be movable when teams give up on next season. Schroder is also past his peak but was offered $20m/year by the lakers not too long ago.

Sexton's upside is still at the all-star level, although less likely to reach it now than pre-injury. (Guard is stacked around the league, so maybe McCollum-level, top 40 NBA player is more accurate for his upside?)


Or, Sexton's upside might be that of Reggie Jackson, Schroder, and or D Lo, all of whom were putting up similar numbers around his age and had similar games. In addition to his 18.4 FGAs he averaged 6.4 FTAs, and if he has the same struggles as the rest of the smaller guard contingent with the adjustment the NBA made, his efficiency could take a hit. Sexton was top 30 in the entire NBA in usage the same season and I just don't see how that's going to be possible going forward.

My worry is that according to advanced stats, he's about break even on the court when he's scoring at that level on that usage, and due to his other limitations, he'll fall below break even if he's asked to allow the ball to move more. I'd pay him to be a sixth man and live with the risk. If another team is willing to pay him to be an all star, I'd shake his hand and wish him well.

Sexton was better at a younger age at scoring than all those guys, in both volume and efficiency. And DLo, the only one particularly close, was an all-star.


He was better at some things and worse at others. Reggie Jackson's been a better defender and better at running an offense. D Lo is a more consistent outside shooter.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: We they resign sexton? 

Post#42 » by JonFromVA » Wed May 4, 2022 7:25 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Or, Sexton's upside might be that of Reggie Jackson, Schroder, and or D Lo, all of whom were putting up similar numbers around his age and had similar games. In addition to his 18.4 FGAs he averaged 6.4 FTAs, and if he has the same struggles as the rest of the smaller guard contingent with the adjustment the NBA made, his efficiency could take a hit. Sexton was top 30 in the entire NBA in usage the same season and I just don't see how that's going to be possible going forward.

My worry is that according to advanced stats, he's about break even on the court when he's scoring at that level on that usage, and due to his other limitations, he'll fall below break even if he's asked to allow the ball to move more. I'd pay him to be a sixth man and live with the risk. If another team is willing to pay him to be an all star, I'd shake his hand and wish him well.

Sexton was better at a younger age at scoring than all those guys, in both volume and efficiency. And DLo, the only one particularly close, was an all-star.


He was better at some things and worse at others. Reggie Jackson's been a better defender and better at running an offense. D Lo is a more consistent outside shooter.


Are you pulling these comparisons from fans of other team's off the T&T forum? :lol:

Collin was putting up 24 & 4 at the same age that Jackson was putting up 5&2, Russell has only 1 season he shot better from 3pt than Collin's worse (and no I'm not counting his 11 games this season).

The problem with Collin is and has always been his playmaking, his ability to run a team, and his off-the-ball defense; but that's why we've always been talking about landing spots where he could defend more on-the-ball against opposing PG's with the help of a playmaker at another position. A team that can use him that way should value him higher than the Cavs do, and hopefully we can get decent value for him. If not ... he's going to have to figure out how he can go about proving to the Cavs and/or the rest of the league they're wrong.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#43 » by jbk1234 » Wed May 4, 2022 7:46 pm

D Lol was 22 the first season he averaged 20 ppg. He shot .369 from 3 on that season. He averaged 7.8 three point apg that season.

Reggie Jackson averaged 18.8 ppg and 6.2 apg his fifth year in the league. Pistons fans thought they stole him from OKC and were very fortunate to have gotten him on his extension.

Schroder averaged 17.9 ppg and 6.3 apg his 4th year in the NBA. The Hawks gave him a nice contract and ended up paying to dump him 12 months later.

The point is all of these guys gave their teams reasons to be optimistic about the future at similar points in their careers and the hoped-for growth didn't materialize. Sexton has been more efficient as the main offensive option, but each of them possesses a skill set Sexton lacks.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: We they resign sexton? 

Post#44 » by toooskies » Wed May 4, 2022 8:03 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Or, Sexton's upside might be that of Reggie Jackson, Schroder, and or D Lo, all of whom were putting up similar numbers around his age and had similar games. In addition to his 18.4 FGAs he averaged 6.4 FTAs, and if he has the same struggles as the rest of the smaller guard contingent with the adjustment the NBA made, his efficiency could take a hit. Sexton was top 30 in the entire NBA in usage the same season and I just don't see how that's going to be possible going forward.

My worry is that according to advanced stats, he's about break even on the court when he's scoring at that level on that usage, and due to his other limitations, he'll fall below break even if he's asked to allow the ball to move more. I'd pay him to be a sixth man and live with the risk. If another team is willing to pay him to be an all star, I'd shake his hand and wish him well.

Sexton was better at a younger age at scoring than all those guys, in both volume and efficiency. And DLo, the only one particularly close, was an all-star.


He was better at some things and worse at others. Reggie Jackson's been a better defender and better at running an offense. D Lo is a more consistent outside shooter.

I just want to make sure you're comparing the first four years of those guys' careers, before they signed their contracts.

No one gets paid to be an average defender, and Reggie plays PG rather than SG, so he naturally gets opportunities for more (unearned) assists. But if you turned every assist Reggie has over Collin into a made 3-pointer, giving Jackson all the credit for creating someone else's made shot, you wouldn't reach Collin's 3rd year scoring point total in any season. (He gets close in his age 25 season, but that was right after he signed a 5y/$80m contract that, scaled to the current cap, was a 5y/$140m deal. He had turned down a 4-year, $48m deal, equivalent to a current 4y/$80m deal, from OKC the year prior after posting a 13/4/4 season on 29 minutes a game.) OKC traded him and may have regretted it. The media surrounding the $80m contract suggest it was an overpay. Both teams might have lost!

DLo is consistently average as an outside shooter, 35.6% career on high volume, with a lot of those shots off the dribble. In his first four years he had slightly higher volume than Sexton from three-- roughly 0.6 more makes per game. He's also consistently a below-average shooter inside the line, never having a year over 50% from two, which means he's never had a TS% better than Sexton's 2nd or 3rd years. He's also paid $30m a year, way over what anyone expects for Sexton, although obviously a better passer-- but he's gotten to play PG for his entire career, so he's gotten to grow through an A/TO ratio well below 2 in his first three years on the court.

Zach LaVine is a much better comp-- awful defense, not a point guard, beats guys with speed, took mostly assisted 3s in his first three years, averaged 4.0 threes taken per game over his first four years (compared to Sexton's 3.9), had a season-ending injury after slumping in a limited set of games in his 4th year, signed a 4y/$78m contract, which projects to $93m over four years with the current cap. Regarded as an overpay at the time, but he's going to get a bigger contract this offseason.

You can argue fit, and we have so we don't need to get into it, but Sexton's comparable guys are all in range where $20m is perfectly reasonable expectation from his camp and the right team could (unwisely?) offer him more. If I were him I'd hate to be paid less than LeVert is, if only for pecking order purposes. His ceiling, compared to reasonable comp guys, is possibly the all-star level if there's more growth in his game; if not, he's got the long Reggie Jackson path ahead.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#45 » by jbk1234 » Wed May 4, 2022 8:20 pm

I mean Reggie Jackson was playing limited minutes behind prime Westbrook on a contending Thunder team.

Schroder played behind Teague on a playoff team.

D Lol played for two separate teams, including a Lakers team with Ball and Ingram, as well as a Nets team that had LeVert and DinWiddie.

We gave Sexton the keys to the car 9 games into his rookie season, and the results were three consecutive 20-win seasons with him as the main option.

So if we're going to include the context involving play on rookie contracts, we should include it all.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#46 » by JonFromVA » Wed May 4, 2022 8:53 pm

jbk1234 wrote:D Lol was 22 the first season he averaged 20 ppg. He shot .369 from 3 on that season. He averaged 7.8 three point apg that season.

Reggie Jackson averaged 18.8 ppg and 6.2 apg his fifth year in the league. Pistons fans thought they stole him from OKC and were very fortunate to have gotten him on his extension.

Schroder averaged 17.9 ppg and 6.3 apg his 4th year in the NBA. The Hawks gave him a nice contract and ended up paying to dump him 12 months later.

The point is all of these guys gave their teams reasons to be optimistic about the future at similar points in their careers and the hoped-for growth didn't materialize. Sexton has been more efficient as the main offensive option, but each of them possesses a skill set Sexton lacks.


The Lakers and Thunder were so optimistic about those guys, they traded them both... why?

As you pointed out the Hawks kept Schroeder and then dumped him later... why?

They weren't good point-guards AND they were not efficient scorers.

At least Collin is checking the second box, and he's done better at a younger age which suggests he will only improve.

There are never guarantees, but GM's are paid to make bets on that. If you don't like uncertainty - stay out of the draft.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#47 » by toooskies » Wed May 4, 2022 9:18 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I mean Reggie Jackson was playing limited minutes behind prime Westbrook on a contending Thunder team.

Schroder played behind Teague on a playoff team.

D Lol played for two separate teams, including a Lakers team with Ball and Ingram, as well as a Nets team that had LeVert and DinWiddie.

We gave Sexton the keys to the car 9 games into his rookie season, and the results were three consecutive 20-win seasons with him as the main option.

So if we're going to include the context involving play on rookie contracts, we should include it all.

Go ahead and list all the non-Sexton reasons why the Cavs were bad in those three seasons, as long as you're going to count them as a black mark on his career. And remember to include two of those seasons on Garland's record when we discuss his expected max extension at some point.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#48 » by jbk1234 » Wed May 4, 2022 10:02 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I mean Reggie Jackson was playing limited minutes behind prime Westbrook on a contending Thunder team.

Schroder played behind Teague on a playoff team.

D Lol played for two separate teams, including a Lakers team with Ball and Ingram, as well as a Nets team that had LeVert and DinWiddie.

We gave Sexton the keys to the car 9 games into his rookie season, and the results were three consecutive 20-win seasons with him as the main option.

So if we're going to include the context involving play on rookie contracts, we should include it all.

Go ahead and list all the non-Sexton reasons why the Cavs were bad in those three seasons, as long as you're going to count them as a black mark on his career. And remember to include two of those seasons on Garland's record when we discuss his expected max extension at some point.


Neither Sexton nor Garland had any business starting their rookie years, but the Cavs decided to force feed them minutes. Garland adapted his game in a manner that aided the team in a way that Sexton did not. Garland's jump in year three was greater than Sexton's.

It's not just the 11 games this season that were troubling with Sexton, it's also the second half of his third season when his outside shooting faltered and he struggled to stay net positive on the court.

Also, people are just disappearing how bad the Cavs we're with Sexton as a starter his first three years. We were getting run out of the gym. After Beilien left, KPJ started getting minutes at Sexton's expense and then Covid hit and the season got shut down. The Cavs we're going to move both Drummond and Sexton to the bench halfway through his third season and then Drummond balked. They made him available for trade rather than extend him last season. Last season JBB was already closing games with Okoro instead before Sexton got injured.

Three times Sexton's starting role were in jeopardy and it didn't happen due to outside events. Now we have LeVert who can at least defend the position and get his own shot.

I have the odds of Sexton being a net positive starter on this roster as remote at best. Him getting injured in a contract year was both a blessing and a curse for him. If it didn't work, and there's plenty of reason to believe it wouldn't have, then he would've been benched halfway through the season. If it didn't work with him off the bench, and it didn't really work with Kyrie running the second unit, then we wouldn't even be entertaining offering him sixth man money.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#49 » by JonFromVA » Wed May 4, 2022 10:41 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I mean Reggie Jackson was playing limited minutes behind prime Westbrook on a contending Thunder team.

Schroder played behind Teague on a playoff team.

D Lol played for two separate teams, including a Lakers team with Ball and Ingram, as well as a Nets team that had LeVert and DinWiddie.

We gave Sexton the keys to the car 9 games into his rookie season, and the results were three consecutive 20-win seasons with him as the main option.

So if we're going to include the context involving play on rookie contracts, we should include it all.

Go ahead and list all the non-Sexton reasons why the Cavs were bad in those three seasons, as long as you're going to count them as a black mark on his career. And remember to include two of those seasons on Garland's record when we discuss his expected max extension at some point.


Neither Sexton nor Garland had any business starting their rookie years, but the Cavs decided to force feed them minutes. Garland adapted his game in a manner that aided the team in a way that Sexton did not. Garland's jump in year three was greater than Sexton's.

It's not just the 11 games this season that were troubling with Sexton, it's also the second half of his third season when his outside shooting faltered and he struggled to stay net positive on the court.

Also, people are just disappearing how bad the Cavs we're with Sexton as a starter his first three years. We were getting run out of the gym. After Beilien left, KPJ started getting minutes at Sexton's expense and then Covid hit and the season got shut down. The Cavs we're going to move both Drummond and Sexton to the bench halfway through his third season and then Drummond balked. They made him available for trade rather than extend him last season. Last season JBB was already closing games with Okoro instead before Sexton got injured.

Three times Sexton's starting role were in jeopardy and it didn't happen due to outside events. Now we have LeVert who can at least defend the position and get his own shot.

I have the odds of Sexton being a net positive starter on this roster as remote at best. Him getting injured in a contract year was both a blessing and a curse for him. If it didn't work, and there's plenty of reason to believe it wouldn't have, then he would've been benched halfway through the season. If it didn't work with him off the bench, and it didn't really work with Kyrie running the second unit, then we wouldn't even be entertaining offering him sixth man money.


Since a certain grateful dead fan was banned, those of us left around are well aware of Collin's weaknesses. We really don't need to re-tread them. We know the positive team data in Collin's favor are scarce, we also know that when we had some success with Collin it was cut short due to injuries and dysfunction. None of that means he can't improve and/or that the Cavs can't do a better job aligning his role with the team needs.

Some certainty would actually be nice, but other team's are hesitant to invest a lot in Collin too which has limited our options to even do something simple like swap his youth/potential for fit/length.

It just hasn't been worth the effort to give up on him let alone demote him from starting SG.

Do we need scoring? Yes.
Do we need shooting? Yes.
Do we need secondary play-making? Yes.

It's kind of that simple, but it's going to take time to shake out.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#50 » by KuruptedCav » Thu May 5, 2022 11:34 am

I expect the Cavs to do something low-key smart like a S&T that utilizes him to create a salary slot with a player who isn’t guaranteed long-term, brings back a player they can test drive in a role they aren’t sure about. I don’t know that maximizing the asset is the goal so much as test-driving an opportunity while maintaining flexibility.

Example: Sexton to Minnesota for DeAngelo Russell; with the idea that DLO is a 2Guard/Backup PG. Same thing, Eric Gordon from Houston.


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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#51 » by JonFromVA » Thu May 5, 2022 2:18 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:I expect the Cavs to do something low-key smart like a S&T that utilizes him to create a salary slot with a player who isn’t guaranteed long-term, brings back a player they can test drive in a role they aren’t sure about. I don’t know that maximizing the asset is the goal so much as test-driving an opportunity while maintaining flexibility.

Example: Sexton to Minnesota for DeAngelo Russell; with the idea that DLO is a 2Guard/Backup PG. Same thing, Eric Gordon from Houston.


If the goal wasn't to maximize the asset, they might have included Collin (somehow) in the LeVert deal rather than use draft capital; but they're letting things play out which suggests to me they're content to either get what they want, match any deal, or worst case let Collin walk if there actually was a team willing to pay him more than we're willing to match.

While I think it's a possibility they're trying to hold on to cap flexibility for 2023, one way to work around that is by having movable neutral or positive assets on the roster (aka salary that can be dumped if needed or included in a S&T).

An expiring contract is considered an asset, but technically it's equivalent to a player another team is willing to absorb. It's "net neutral" other than the fact it can be used to spend over the cap.

The better option is to develop positive assets that you believe are minimally neutral. To achieve that you just need to know another team is interested in a player at the salary we paid. That's exactly the case if we end up matching another team's offer for Collin, and it was also believed to be the case when we traded for Lauri and Caris (at least the time there were other team's interested).
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#52 » by toooskies » Thu May 5, 2022 3:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I mean Reggie Jackson was playing limited minutes behind prime Westbrook on a contending Thunder team.

Schroder played behind Teague on a playoff team.

D Lol played for two separate teams, including a Lakers team with Ball and Ingram, as well as a Nets team that had LeVert and DinWiddie.

We gave Sexton the keys to the car 9 games into his rookie season, and the results were three consecutive 20-win seasons with him as the main option.

So if we're going to include the context involving play on rookie contracts, we should include it all.

Go ahead and list all the non-Sexton reasons why the Cavs were bad in those three seasons, as long as you're going to count them as a black mark on his career. And remember to include two of those seasons on Garland's record when we discuss his expected max extension at some point.


Neither Sexton nor Garland had any business starting their rookie years, but the Cavs decided to force feed them minutes. Garland adapted his game in a manner that aided the team in a way that Sexton did not. Garland's jump in year three was greater than Sexton's.

It's not just the 11 games this season that were troubling with Sexton, it's also the second half of his third season when his outside shooting faltered and he struggled to stay net positive on the court.

Also, people are just disappearing how bad the Cavs we're with Sexton as a starter his first three years. We were getting run out of the gym. After Beilien left, KPJ started getting minutes at Sexton's expense and then Covid hit and the season got shut down. The Cavs we're going to move both Drummond and Sexton to the bench halfway through his third season and then Drummond balked. They made him available for trade rather than extend him last season. Last season JBB was already closing games with Okoro instead before Sexton got injured.

Three times Sexton's starting role were in jeopardy and it didn't happen due to outside events. Now we have LeVert who can at least defend the position and get his own shot.

I have the odds of Sexton being a net positive starter on this roster as remote at best. Him getting injured in a contract year was both a blessing and a curse for him. If it didn't work, and there's plenty of reason to believe it wouldn't have, then he would've been benched halfway through the season. If it didn't work with him off the bench, and it didn't really work with Kyrie running the second unit, then we wouldn't even be entertaining offering him sixth man money.

We were getting run out of they gym because by the end of the year, we were starting two of the next year's starters, and the 8th, 9th, and 11th men. And the bench after that was a bunch of guys who combined for 14 NBA games the next year during COVID. It didn't resemble an NBA team, and Sexton's presence wasn't one of the reasons why.

Sexton was the best player on the team two of those three years, and he got an awful lot of "is he a starter in this league" questions that really aren't supposed to come at second or third year guys on bad teams. And I'm not talking "can Garland and Sexton play together" questions, I'm talking "we asked other players if Sexton is an NBA starter and they said no" or "GMs around the league are questioning whether he's a starter" and not giving the guy time to grow his game like almost all young players are afforded. For some reason, lots of people have been chomping on the bit to lay judgment on Sexton's full career before his rookie contract was up.

Whereas Markelle Fultz is out there making $16.5m a year, accumulating one injury after another, and can't even pretend to shoot. Sexton has shown production and somebody is going to pay for it and hope the rest comes along. And if they don't, the Cavs might get a steal in the $17m range. At the very least he'll be as tradeable as Bertans or Dinwiddie.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#53 » by jbk1234 » Thu May 5, 2022 3:59 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Go ahead and list all the non-Sexton reasons why the Cavs were bad in those three seasons, as long as you're going to count them as a black mark on his career. And remember to include two of those seasons on Garland's record when we discuss his expected max extension at some point.


Neither Sexton nor Garland had any business starting their rookie years, but the Cavs decided to force feed them minutes. Garland adapted his game in a manner that aided the team in a way that Sexton did not. Garland's jump in year three was greater than Sexton's.

It's not just the 11 games this season that were troubling with Sexton, it's also the second half of his third season when his outside shooting faltered and he struggled to stay net positive on the court.

Also, people are just disappearing how bad the Cavs we're with Sexton as a starter his first three years. We were getting run out of the gym. After Beilien left, KPJ started getting minutes at Sexton's expense and then Covid hit and the season got shut down. The Cavs we're going to move both Drummond and Sexton to the bench halfway through his third season and then Drummond balked. They made him available for trade rather than extend him last season. Last season JBB was already closing games with Okoro instead before Sexton got injured.

Three times Sexton's starting role were in jeopardy and it didn't happen due to outside events. Now we have LeVert who can at least defend the position and get his own shot.

I have the odds of Sexton being a net positive starter on this roster as remote at best. Him getting injured in a contract year was both a blessing and a curse for him. If it didn't work, and there's plenty of reason to believe it wouldn't have, then he would've been benched halfway through the season. If it didn't work with him off the bench, and it didn't really work with Kyrie running the second unit, then we wouldn't even be entertaining offering him sixth man money.

We were getting run out of they gym because by the end of the year, we were starting two of the next year's starters, and the 8th, 9th, and 11th men. And the bench after that was a bunch of guys who combined for 14 NBA games the next year during COVID. It didn't resemble an NBA team, and Sexton's presence wasn't one of the reasons why.

Sexton was the best player on the team two of those three years, and he got an awful lot of "is he a starter in this league" questions that really aren't supposed to come at second or third year guys on bad teams. And I'm not talking "can Garland and Sexton play together" questions, I'm talking "we asked other players if Sexton is an NBA starter and they said no" or "GMs around the league are questioning whether he's a starter" and not giving the guy time to grow his game like almost all young players are afforded. For some reason, lots of people have been chomping on the bit to lay judgment on Sexton's full career before his rookie contract was up.

Whereas Markelle Fultz is out there making $16.5m a year, accumulating one injury after another, and can't even pretend to shoot. Sexton has shown production and somebody is going to pay for it and hope the rest comes along. And if they don't, the Cavs might get a steal in the $17m range. At the very least he'll be as tradeable as Bertans or Dinwiddie.


Not for nothing, but the bolded is the crazy part of the argument.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#54 » by JonFromVA » Thu May 5, 2022 4:16 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Neither Sexton nor Garland had any business starting their rookie years, but the Cavs decided to force feed them minutes. Garland adapted his game in a manner that aided the team in a way that Sexton did not. Garland's jump in year three was greater than Sexton's.

It's not just the 11 games this season that were troubling with Sexton, it's also the second half of his third season when his outside shooting faltered and he struggled to stay net positive on the court.

Also, people are just disappearing how bad the Cavs we're with Sexton as a starter his first three years. We were getting run out of the gym. After Beilien left, KPJ started getting minutes at Sexton's expense and then Covid hit and the season got shut down. The Cavs we're going to move both Drummond and Sexton to the bench halfway through his third season and then Drummond balked. They made him available for trade rather than extend him last season. Last season JBB was already closing games with Okoro instead before Sexton got injured.

Three times Sexton's starting role were in jeopardy and it didn't happen due to outside events. Now we have LeVert who can at least defend the position and get his own shot.

I have the odds of Sexton being a net positive starter on this roster as remote at best. Him getting injured in a contract year was both a blessing and a curse for him. If it didn't work, and there's plenty of reason to believe it wouldn't have, then he would've been benched halfway through the season. If it didn't work with him off the bench, and it didn't really work with Kyrie running the second unit, then we wouldn't even be entertaining offering him sixth man money.

We were getting run out of they gym because by the end of the year, we were starting two of the next year's starters, and the 8th, 9th, and 11th men. And the bench after that was a bunch of guys who combined for 14 NBA games the next year during COVID. It didn't resemble an NBA team, and Sexton's presence wasn't one of the reasons why.

Sexton was the best player on the team two of those three years, and he got an awful lot of "is he a starter in this league" questions that really aren't supposed to come at second or third year guys on bad teams. And I'm not talking "can Garland and Sexton play together" questions, I'm talking "we asked other players if Sexton is an NBA starter and they said no" or "GMs around the league are questioning whether he's a starter" and not giving the guy time to grow his game like almost all young players are afforded. For some reason, lots of people have been chomping on the bit to lay judgment on Sexton's full career before his rookie contract was up.

Whereas Markelle Fultz is out there making $16.5m a year, accumulating one injury after another, and can't even pretend to shoot. Sexton has shown production and somebody is going to pay for it and hope the rest comes along. And if they don't, the Cavs might get a steal in the $17m range. At the very least he'll be as tradeable as Bertans or Dinwiddie.


Not for nothing, but the bolded is the crazy part of the argument.


He did say "at the very least" ...
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#55 » by toooskies » Thu May 5, 2022 5:27 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Neither Sexton nor Garland had any business starting their rookie years, but the Cavs decided to force feed them minutes. Garland adapted his game in a manner that aided the team in a way that Sexton did not. Garland's jump in year three was greater than Sexton's.

It's not just the 11 games this season that were troubling with Sexton, it's also the second half of his third season when his outside shooting faltered and he struggled to stay net positive on the court.

Also, people are just disappearing how bad the Cavs we're with Sexton as a starter his first three years. We were getting run out of the gym. After Beilien left, KPJ started getting minutes at Sexton's expense and then Covid hit and the season got shut down. The Cavs we're going to move both Drummond and Sexton to the bench halfway through his third season and then Drummond balked. They made him available for trade rather than extend him last season. Last season JBB was already closing games with Okoro instead before Sexton got injured.

Three times Sexton's starting role were in jeopardy and it didn't happen due to outside events. Now we have LeVert who can at least defend the position and get his own shot.

I have the odds of Sexton being a net positive starter on this roster as remote at best. Him getting injured in a contract year was both a blessing and a curse for him. If it didn't work, and there's plenty of reason to believe it wouldn't have, then he would've been benched halfway through the season. If it didn't work with him off the bench, and it didn't really work with Kyrie running the second unit, then we wouldn't even be entertaining offering him sixth man money.

We were getting run out of they gym because by the end of the year, we were starting two of the next year's starters, and the 8th, 9th, and 11th men. And the bench after that was a bunch of guys who combined for 14 NBA games the next year during COVID. It didn't resemble an NBA team, and Sexton's presence wasn't one of the reasons why.

Sexton was the best player on the team two of those three years, and he got an awful lot of "is he a starter in this league" questions that really aren't supposed to come at second or third year guys on bad teams. And I'm not talking "can Garland and Sexton play together" questions, I'm talking "we asked other players if Sexton is an NBA starter and they said no" or "GMs around the league are questioning whether he's a starter" and not giving the guy time to grow his game like almost all young players are afforded. For some reason, lots of people have been chomping on the bit to lay judgment on Sexton's full career before his rookie contract was up.

Whereas Markelle Fultz is out there making $16.5m a year, accumulating one injury after another, and can't even pretend to shoot. Sexton has shown production and somebody is going to pay for it and hope the rest comes along. And if they don't, the Cavs might get a steal in the $17m range. At the very least he'll be as tradeable as Bertans or Dinwiddie.


Not for nothing, but the bolded is the crazy part of the argument.

I mean, that's the worst-worst case, where Sexton goes from being the leading scorer in 20-21 to being totally unplayable. There will still be teams out there that would absorb the salary to take the chance on him. The 2023 cap space teams that don't get anybody will probably be willing to give Sexton a chance rather than overpay one of the remaining free agents.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#56 » by jbk1234 » Thu May 5, 2022 8:05 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:We were getting run out of they gym because by the end of the year, we were starting two of the next year's starters, and the 8th, 9th, and 11th men. And the bench after that was a bunch of guys who combined for 14 NBA games the next year during COVID. It didn't resemble an NBA team, and Sexton's presence wasn't one of the reasons why.

Sexton was the best player on the team two of those three years, and he got an awful lot of "is he a starter in this league" questions that really aren't supposed to come at second or third year guys on bad teams. And I'm not talking "can Garland and Sexton play together" questions, I'm talking "we asked other players if Sexton is an NBA starter and they said no" or "GMs around the league are questioning whether he's a starter" and not giving the guy time to grow his game like almost all young players are afforded. For some reason, lots of people have been chomping on the bit to lay judgment on Sexton's full career before his rookie contract was up.

Whereas Markelle Fultz is out there making $16.5m a year, accumulating one injury after another, and can't even pretend to shoot. Sexton has shown production and somebody is going to pay for it and hope the rest comes along. And if they don't, the Cavs might get a steal in the $17m range. At the very least he'll be as tradeable as Bertans or Dinwiddie.


Not for nothing, but the bolded is the crazy part of the argument.

I mean, that's the worst-worst case, where Sexton goes from being the leading scorer in 20-21 to being totally unplayable. There will still be teams out there that would absorb the salary to take the chance on him. The 2023 cap space teams that don't get anybody will probably be willing to give Sexton a chance rather than overpay one of the remaining free agents.


It's okay if it turns out to be a bad contract because we can always trade it for other bad contracts isn't, in any way, persuasive.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#57 » by toooskies » Thu May 5, 2022 8:45 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Not for nothing, but the bolded is the crazy part of the argument.

I mean, that's the worst-worst case, where Sexton goes from being the leading scorer in 20-21 to being totally unplayable. There will still be teams out there that would absorb the salary to take the chance on him. The 2023 cap space teams that don't get anybody will probably be willing to give Sexton a chance rather than overpay one of the remaining free agents.


It's okay if it turns out to be a bad contract because we can always trade it for other bad contracts isn't, in any way, persuasive.

It's exactly what Golden State did by sign-and-trading for DLo when KD signed in Brooklyn. And then again when they turned DLo into Wiggins. And now Wiggins proved to be a good fit and not so awful of a contract and better than the nothing that they could've had.

I do not expect the Cavs to be the most attractive destination in 2023 free agency. Half the league could have a max slot free if they wanted to. I would rather have players under contract to trade rather than see the number of rotation-level players on the roster dwindle from our current 10+ to 7 or less in 2023 just because letting Sexton, Love, Osman, LeVert, and Windler walk grants us cap space to sign our 3rd choice of 8th men at the expense of any semblance of depth, on a team stocked with injury-prone players.

So, yes, I'm willing to take the risk that Sexton isn't good next year if it's near the market for guys like him historically. As long as he doesn't get a Mosgov contract from Detroit, pretty much. And if a S&T is a better option, I'll gladly take that too-- if the FO likes Duncan Robinson for him from Miami, sure. One of LAC's extra wings, fine. As a part of a deal for a bigger name, great.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#58 » by JonFromVA » Thu May 5, 2022 9:18 pm

Maybe jbk is just trying to keep the board active (good idea for a mod), but I'm not sure why he's worrying about this so much. Our chance to over-pay Collin was last Summer, but he didn't like our offer and we asked him to somehow prove he was worth more and not only couldn't he (the trade proposals being thrown around for him were a joke) he went and got hurt and eliminated his one way to change anybody's mind on his value.

There's always a chance some teams gets desperate, but the market just doesn't seem to be there for Collin.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#59 » by jbk1234 » Thu May 5, 2022 9:20 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:I mean, that's the worst-worst case, where Sexton goes from being the leading scorer in 20-21 to being totally unplayable. There will still be teams out there that would absorb the salary to take the chance on him. The 2023 cap space teams that don't get anybody will probably be willing to give Sexton a chance rather than overpay one of the remaining free agents.


It's okay if it turns out to be a bad contract because we can always trade it for other bad contracts isn't, in any way, persuasive.

It's exactly what Golden State did by sign-and-trading for DLo when KD signed in Brooklyn. And then again when they turned DLo into Wiggins. And now Wiggins proved to be a good fit and not so awful of a contract and better than the nothing that they could've had.

I do not expect the Cavs to be the most attractive destination in 2023 free agency. Half the league could have a max slot free if they wanted to. I would rather have players under contract to trade rather than see the number of rotation-level players on the roster dwindle from our current 10+ to 7 or less in 2023 just because letting Sexton, Love, Osman, LeVert, and Windler walk grants us cap space to sign our 3rd choice of 8th men at the expense of any semblance of depth, on a team stocked with injury-prone players.

So, yes, I'm willing to take the risk that Sexton isn't good next year if it's near the market for guys like him historically. As long as he doesn't get a Mosgov contract from Detroit, pretty much. And if a S&T is a better option, I'll gladly take that too-- if the FO likes Duncan Robinson for him from Miami, sure. One of LAC's extra wings, fine. As a part of a deal for a bigger name, great.


The other side of the DLo/Wiggins transaction involved the Wolves, who maxed Wiggins before they had to, then traded him due to fit/chemistry issues, they attached what became the No. 2 overall pick in the draft to do so and return DLo, who also doesn't fit terribly well, and now they're looking to move him in a soft market.

I'm not against paying players who fit with your core guys. I'm very much against paying players who are a problematic fit with your core guys, suspending disbelief and hoping for the best.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Will they resign sexton? 

Post#60 » by toooskies » Thu May 5, 2022 9:25 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
It's okay if it turns out to be a bad contract because we can always trade it for other bad contracts isn't, in any way, persuasive.

It's exactly what Golden State did by sign-and-trading for DLo when KD signed in Brooklyn. And then again when they turned DLo into Wiggins. And now Wiggins proved to be a good fit and not so awful of a contract and better than the nothing that they could've had.

I do not expect the Cavs to be the most attractive destination in 2023 free agency. Half the league could have a max slot free if they wanted to. I would rather have players under contract to trade rather than see the number of rotation-level players on the roster dwindle from our current 10+ to 7 or less in 2023 just because letting Sexton, Love, Osman, LeVert, and Windler walk grants us cap space to sign our 3rd choice of 8th men at the expense of any semblance of depth, on a team stocked with injury-prone players.

So, yes, I'm willing to take the risk that Sexton isn't good next year if it's near the market for guys like him historically. As long as he doesn't get a Mosgov contract from Detroit, pretty much. And if a S&T is a better option, I'll gladly take that too-- if the FO likes Duncan Robinson for him from Miami, sure. One of LAC's extra wings, fine. As a part of a deal for a bigger name, great.


The other side of the DLo/Wiggins transaction involved the Wolves, who maxed Wiggins before they had to, then traded him due to fit/chemistry issues, they attached what became the No. 2 overall pick in the draft to do so and return DLo, who also doesn't fit terribly well, and now they're looking to move him in a soft market.

I'm not against paying players who fit with your core guys. I'm very much against paying players who are a problematic fit with your core guys, suspending disbelief and hoping for the best.

We aren't talking about maxing Sexton here. We're not even talking about paying Sexton the market rate to be the same player he was 2 years ago, honestly.

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