Cavs fans Big Board

[jbk1234]

Draft seems a bit thin at PG but there are a lot of wings with size. No offense Okoro, but they need to make sure they get actual measurements on these guys. These mocks are all over the place but a couple of them have legit lottery talent falling to the Cavs or even further.

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

https://www.tankathon.com/mock_draft

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2022-nba-mock-draft-gonzagas-chet-holmgren-has-highest-ceiling-goes-no-1-ahead-of-dukes-paolo-banchero/

Updated to fix the double post.

[JonFromVA]

How tall did you think Okoro was going in to the draft?

[toooskies]

Dyson Daniels can't shoot and if he weighs 170 pounds, he's going to get destroyed in the league until he can add some bulk.

Ousmane Dieng had a brutal start to the season and can't shoot.

Tari Eason is the guy I want and he's available at 14 in the ringer/nbadraft.net big boards.

I would not enjoy the tankathon draft and might look to trade the pick.

[jbk1234]

How tall did you think Okoro was going in to the draft?

Pretty sure Auburn had him listed at 6'6" which is better OK listing Cade at 6'8"

[JonFromVA]

How tall did you think Okoro was going in to the draft?

Pretty sure Auburn had him listed at 6'6" which is better OK listing Cade at 6'8"

6'6" is a fair measurement unless there's some reason to believe that was in socks.

Historically a player as small as 6'3.5" could be listed as 6'6" if he showed up to be measured in 2" heels and then they'd round-up ...

[jbk1234]

How tall did you think Okoro was going in to the draft?

Pretty sure Auburn had him listed at 6'6" which is better OK listing Cade at 6'8"

6'6" is a fair measurement unless there's some reason to believe that was in socks.

Historically a player as small as 6'3.5" could be listed as 6'6" if he showed up to be measured in 2" heels and then they'd round-up ...

I mean there's a reason the NBA requires their teams to post their players true measurements now. There's reason that the combine and private workouts became a thing. You don't want to punish honesty, which is what you're doing if you assume every team is adding 2-3 inches.

[jbk1234]

Dyson Daniels can't shoot and if he weighs 170 pounds, he's going to get destroyed in the league until he can add some bulk.

Ousmane Dieng had a brutal start to the season and can't shoot.

Tari Eason is the guy I want and he's available at 14 in the ringer/nbadraft.net big boards.

I would not enjoy the tankathon draft and might look to trade the pick.

Agbaji and Kendall Brown are still on the board in the tankathon draft. Now, I think the chances that Agbaji doesn't go until 14 are about .000001% but I'd be thrilled if we landed him.

[tundraknight]

In the highly unlikely scenario the Cavaliers jump into the Top 4 (2.3% chance) I’d take Shaedon Sharpe and not look back. If he’s on that same tier level as Anthony Edwards as a prospect for example, then this Cavaliers team would jump into instant contender status imo playing along side Garland in the back court.

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[JonFromVA]

Pretty sure Auburn had him listed at 6'6" which is better OK listing Cade at 6'8"

6'6" is a fair measurement unless there's some reason to believe that was in socks.

Historically a player as small as 6'3.5" could be listed as 6'6" if he showed up to be measured in 2" heels and then they'd round-up ...

I mean there's a reason the NBA requires their teams to post their players true measurements now. There's reason that the combine and private workouts became a thing. You don't want to punish honesty, which is what you're doing if you assume every team is adding 2-3 inches.

If I remember right there wasn't a combine that season, so the measurements being thrown around for Isaac are harder to source. Maybe from Auburn, Nike, TeamUSA, who knows ... but they could have been in shoes.

He's listed at 6'5" at nba.com which could still mean he's 6'4.5", but that's all consistent with a 6'6" in shoes measurement.

I mean are we upset that Allen is only 6'10" and Mobley/Markkenan are only 6'11" ?

[tundraknight]

This could be one of the steals of the draft.

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Via nbadraftroom “A big 6-7 shooting guard who can stroke the 3pt shot, has excellent shooting form and is a solid athlete as well.

Has great size for the position. Is a quick open court athlete who can play above the rim with ease. Has good straight-line speed.

A heady player with good basketball instinct and feel for the game.

Has a skill set well suited for today’s NBA.”

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[jbk1234]

6'6" is a fair measurement unless there's some reason to believe that was in socks.

Historically a player as small as 6'3.5" could be listed as 6'6" if he showed up to be measured in 2" heels and then they'd round-up ...

I mean there's a reason the NBA requires their teams to post their players true measurements now. There's reason that the combine and private workouts became a thing. You don't want to punish honesty, which is what you're doing if you assume every team is adding 2-3 inches.

If I remember right there wasn't a combine that season, so the measurements being thrown around for Isaac are harder to source. Maybe from Auburn, Nike, TeamUSA, who knows ... but they could have been in shoes.

He's listed at 6'5" at nba.com which could still mean he's 6'4.5", but that's all consistent with a 6'6" in shoes measurement.

I mean are we upset that Allen is only 6'10" and Mobley/Markkenan are only 6'11" ?

No, because all three of those guys can still play their positions at their listed heights and you know this.

There's a big difference between a SF who is 6'8" and one who is 6'6" in terms of who he can switch onto and who he can cause a matchup problem for on the other side. There's a big difference between a wing who's 6'4" and 6'6" in terms what positions he can defend at a high level.

[toooskies]

Dyson Daniels can't shoot and if he weighs 170 pounds, he's going to get destroyed in the league until he can add some bulk.

Ousmane Dieng had a brutal start to the season and can't shoot.

Tari Eason is the guy I want and he's available at 14 in the ringer/nbadraft.net big boards.

I would not enjoy the tankathon draft and might look to trade the pick.

Agbaji and Kendall Brown are still on the board in the tankathon draft. Now, I think the chances that Agbaji doesn't go until 14 are about .000001% but I'd be thrilled if we landed him.

Agbaji is slightly shorter than Okoro (6'4.5" at the 2021 combine) and likely best as a SG and not a SF. We already have three NBA rotation-level SGs in Sexton, Okoro, and LeVert. Agbaji might be the best shooter of all of them, but he's a bad ballhandler/playmaker at the college level (fewer assists than turnovers) and while he projects as a good defender, he's not getting steals at a high rate, so he's pretty much in the Okoro mold there. He pretty much requires a trade or letting Sexton walk, he either needs to play right away or he's a bust. And since the draft would happen before the trade, we're looking at losing value.

Brown strikes me as a slightly longer Okoro-- just as raw, no handle, defense/transition/cutter, "potential to be average" shooting from 3 according to one draft profile on virtually no volume. You either need to be really confident in the future development in his and the whole team's shooting, or you're resigning yourself to a team that's going to play defense-first. In which case we have Lamar Stevens.

Much rather have Liddell (bigger F who can shoot and contribute right away at the 3, assume he'd be an injury away from starting at the 3 or 4 if JA or Mobley went down) than Brown. Or Branham than Agbaji (has an outside shot like Agbaji, better passer Agbaji, better at finding his own shot than senior Agbaji, has the physical tools defensively to develop, young enough to give 3rd string or Charge reps without being a disappointment while the varsity depth chart drama plays out). But like I said, I'd strongly consider trading down or out.

[jbk1234]

Dyson Daniels can't shoot and if he weighs 170 pounds, he's going to get destroyed in the league until he can add some bulk.

Ousmane Dieng had a brutal start to the season and can't shoot.

Tari Eason is the guy I want and he's available at 14 in the ringer/nbadraft.net big boards.

I would not enjoy the tankathon draft and might look to trade the pick.

Agbaji and Kendall Brown are still on the board in the tankathon draft. Now, I think the chances that Agbaji doesn't go until 14 are about .000001% but I'd be thrilled if we landed him.

Agbaji is slightly shorter than Okoro (6'4.5" at the 2021 combine) and likely best as a SG and not a SF. We already have three NBA rotation-level SGs in Sexton, Okoro, and LeVert. Agbaji might be the best shooter of all of them, but he's a bad ballhandler/playmaker at the college level (fewer assists than turnovers) and while he projects as a good defender, he's not getting steals at a high rate, so he's pretty much in the Okoro mold there. He pretty much requires a trade or letting Sexton walk, he either needs to play right away or he's a bust. And since the draft would happen before the trade, we're looking at losing value.

Brown strikes me as a slightly longer Okoro-- just as raw, no handle, defense/transition/cutter, "potential to be average" shooting from 3 according to one draft profile on virtually no volume. You either need to be really confident in the future development in his and the whole team's shooting, or you're resigning yourself to a team that's going to play defense-first. In which case we have Lamar Stevens.

Much rather have Liddell (bigger F who can shoot and contribute right away at the 3, assume he'd be an injury away from starting at the 3 or 4 if JA or Mobley went down) than Brown. Or Branham than Agbaji (has an outside shot like Agbaji, better passer Agbaji, better at finding his own shot than senior Agbaji, has the physical tools defensively to develop, young enough to give 3rd string or Charge reps without being a disappointment while the varsity depth chart drama plays out). But like I said, I'd strongly consider trading down or out.

Agbaji is a far better, and more frequent, shooter from 3-point range than any of LeVert, Okoro or Sexton. He can also defend. That's precisely what we need. Eventually, if Lauri slides to the bench, we can run some offense out of the 3/4 position as well. I'd argue that the Cavs will be far more difficult team to defend if Mobley develops offensively enough to the point where you can run sets with him at the elbow.

It doesn't matter though because he wont' be on the board at No. 14. Some mocks have him going as high as No. 7.

[JonFromVA]

In the highly unlikely scenario the Cavaliers jump into the Top 4 (2.3% chance) I’d take Shaedon Sharpe and not look back. If he’s on that same tier level as Anthony Edwards as a prospect for example, then this Cavaliers team would jump into instant contender status imo playing along side Garland in the back court.

How come?

He committed to play for Kentucky as a top recruit, but didn't play a single minute for them.

Without knowing the details, I'd be hesitant to draft him at 14.

[toooskies]

Agbaji and Kendall Brown are still on the board in the tankathon draft. Now, I think the chances that Agbaji doesn't go until 14 are about .000001% but I'd be thrilled if we landed him.

Agbaji is slightly shorter than Okoro (6'4.5" at the 2021 combine) and likely best as a SG and not a SF. We already have three NBA rotation-level SGs in Sexton, Okoro, and LeVert. Agbaji might be the best shooter of all of them, but he's a bad ballhandler/playmaker at the college level (fewer assists than turnovers) and while he projects as a good defender, he's not getting steals at a high rate, so he's pretty much in the Okoro mold there. He pretty much requires a trade or letting Sexton walk, he either needs to play right away or he's a bust. And since the draft would happen before the trade, we're looking at losing value.

Brown strikes me as a slightly longer Okoro-- just as raw, no handle, defense/transition/cutter, "potential to be average" shooting from 3 according to one draft profile on virtually no volume. You either need to be really confident in the future development in his and the whole team's shooting, or you're resigning yourself to a team that's going to play defense-first. In which case we have Lamar Stevens.

Much rather have Liddell (bigger F who can shoot and contribute right away at the 3, assume he'd be an injury away from starting at the 3 or 4 if JA or Mobley went down) than Brown. Or Branham than Agbaji (has an outside shot like Agbaji, better passer Agbaji, better at finding his own shot than senior Agbaji, has the physical tools defensively to develop, young enough to give 3rd string or Charge reps without being a disappointment while the varsity depth chart drama plays out). But like I said, I'd strongly consider trading down or out.

Agbaji is a far better, and more frequent, shooter from 3-point range than any of LeVert, Okoro or Sexton. He can also defend. That's precisely what we need. Eventually, if Lauri slides to the bench, we can run some offense out of the 3/4 position as well. I'd argue that the Cavs will be far more difficult team to defend if Mobley develops offensively enough to the point where you can run sets with him at the elbow.

It doesn't matter though because he wont' be on the board at No. 14. Some mocks have him going as high as No. 7.

Agbaji has a notable volume lead, but Sexton has a better career NBA 3p% than Agbaji does in college, over the same timespan.

I don't disagree that if you're correct that if the Cavs need exactly the skills you think they need at the 2 (which I disagree with), AND Agbaji's shooting and defense translate, that he'd be a fine pick, but never a home run where he turns into an elite two-way guy. But plenty of 4-year guys have had their shooting and defense not translate all the way.

Put another way: the upside on a 4-year guy whose main/only skills are 3 and D translate right away is Malcolm Brogdon. You could trade much less than the #14 pick to get Malcolm Brogdon right now.

[tundraknight]

In the highly unlikely scenario the Cavaliers jump into the Top 4 (2.3% chance) I’d take Shaedon Sharpe and not look back. If he’s on that same tier level as Anthony Edwards as a prospect for example, then this Cavaliers team would jump into instant contender status imo playing along side Garland in the back court.

How come?

He committed to play for Kentucky as a top recruit, but didn't play a single minute for them.

Without knowing the details, I'd be hesitant to draft him at 14.

Yeah I know there’s an unknown factor of not playing college, but he’s still been generating a lot of hype recently in the media as an elite 2-way wing prospect. I think it’s safe to say he won’t fall to 14 anyway unless he severely underperforms at the draft combine.

Another player I’d like to get is Bennedict Mathurin but he’s also most likely not falling to 14 unfortunately.

[jbk1234]

Agbaji is slightly shorter than Okoro (6'4.5" at the 2021 combine) and likely best as a SG and not a SF. We already have three NBA rotation-level SGs in Sexton, Okoro, and LeVert. Agbaji might be the best shooter of all of them, but he's a bad ballhandler/playmaker at the college level (fewer assists than turnovers) and while he projects as a good defender, he's not getting steals at a high rate, so he's pretty much in the Okoro mold there. He pretty much requires a trade or letting Sexton walk, he either needs to play right away or he's a bust. And since the draft would happen before the trade, we're looking at losing value.

Brown strikes me as a slightly longer Okoro-- just as raw, no handle, defense/transition/cutter, "potential to be average" shooting from 3 according to one draft profile on virtually no volume. You either need to be really confident in the future development in his and the whole team's shooting, or you're resigning yourself to a team that's going to play defense-first. In which case we have Lamar Stevens.

Much rather have Liddell (bigger F who can shoot and contribute right away at the 3, assume he'd be an injury away from starting at the 3 or 4 if JA or Mobley went down) than Brown. Or Branham than Agbaji (has an outside shot like Agbaji, better passer Agbaji, better at finding his own shot than senior Agbaji, has the physical tools defensively to develop, young enough to give 3rd string or Charge reps without being a disappointment while the varsity depth chart drama plays out). But like I said, I'd strongly consider trading down or out.

Agbaji is a far better, and more frequent, shooter from 3-point range than any of LeVert, Okoro or Sexton. He can also defend. That's precisely what we need. Eventually, if Lauri slides to the bench, we can run some offense out of the 3/4 position as well. I'd argue that the Cavs will be far more difficult team to defend if Mobley develops offensively enough to the point where you can run sets with him at the elbow.

It doesn't matter though because he wont' be on the board at No. 14. Some mocks have him going as high as No. 7.

Agbaji has a notable volume lead, but Sexton has a better career NBA 3p% than Agbaji does in college, over the same timespan.

I don't disagree that if you're correct that if the Cavs need exactly the skills you think they need at the 2 (which I disagree with), AND Agbaji's shooting and defense translate, that he'd be a fine pick, but never a home run where he turns into an elite two-way guy. But plenty of 4-year guys have had their shooting and defense not translate all the way.

Put another way: the upside on a 4-year guy whose main/only skills are 3 and D translate right away is Malcolm Brogdon. You could trade much less than the #14 pick to get Malcolm Brogdon right now.

I guess it really comes down to how good you think Allen, Mobley and Garland are. Either you think that with time they'll be enough, with the right commentary pieces around them, or not. But my fear with guys like LeVert and Sexton is that they'll take the ball out of the hands of those three, and the result will be worse, not better in terms of overall team efficiency.

It's not just the made threes, but the ability of Allen, Mobley, and Garland not to have to play through double teams if they're surrounded by good shooters that I'd really like to see. I think that type of spacing is probably going to be necessary for Mobley to develop into the player we want him to be.

In terms of Agbaji, he's probably the best three point shooter of the two players in this draft, and if you compare his shooting numbers with Sexton's college numbers, or even his rookie numbers, it's not close. But again, he'll be gone and we don't have that Houston 2nd to try to jump a team like the Hornets. There's just too many win now teams picking ahead of us for a 4-year player to fall that far IMO.

[JonFromVA]

Agbaji and Kendall Brown are still on the board in the tankathon draft. Now, I think the chances that Agbaji doesn't go until 14 are about .000001% but I'd be thrilled if we landed him.

Agbaji is slightly shorter than Okoro (6'4.5" at the 2021 combine) and likely best as a SG and not a SF. We already have three NBA rotation-level SGs in Sexton, Okoro, and LeVert. Agbaji might be the best shooter of all of them, but he's a bad ballhandler/playmaker at the college level (fewer assists than turnovers) and while he projects as a good defender, he's not getting steals at a high rate, so he's pretty much in the Okoro mold there. He pretty much requires a trade or letting Sexton walk, he either needs to play right away or he's a bust. And since the draft would happen before the trade, we're looking at losing value.

Brown strikes me as a slightly longer Okoro-- just as raw, no handle, defense/transition/cutter, "potential to be average" shooting from 3 according to one draft profile on virtually no volume. You either need to be really confident in the future development in his and the whole team's shooting, or you're resigning yourself to a team that's going to play defense-first. In which case we have Lamar Stevens.

Much rather have Liddell (bigger F who can shoot and contribute right away at the 3, assume he'd be an injury away from starting at the 3 or 4 if JA or Mobley went down) than Brown. Or Branham than Agbaji (has an outside shot like Agbaji, better passer Agbaji, better at finding his own shot than senior Agbaji, has the physical tools defensively to develop, young enough to give 3rd string or Charge reps without being a disappointment while the varsity depth chart drama plays out). But like I said, I'd strongly consider trading down or out.

Agbaji is a far better, and more frequent, shooter from 3-point range than any of LeVert, Okoro or Sexton. He can also defend. That's precisely what we need. Eventually, if Lauri slides to the bench, we can run some offense out of the 3/4 position as well. I'd argue that the Cavs will be far more difficult team to defend if Mobley develops offensively enough to the point where you can run sets with him at the elbow.

It doesn't matter though because he won't be on the board at No. 14. Some mocks have him going as high as No. 7.

As for Agbaji, I've just got to caution we're looking at a 4 year college player there. Of course some of the 3/4 year guys have done very well as pros justifying their selection and we should be considering them; but we can't compare Isaac who's playing in the NBA during what might had been his Junior year at Auburn to a College Senior shooting 3's from the NCAA line.

Consider Agabaji was only a 30.7% 3pt shooter as a freshman ... or we can look at LeVert who played 4 years at Michigan and managed to pump up his 3pt% from 30.2% as a freshman to 44.6% as a senior. How predictive was that?

Aaron Nesmith couldn't miss from 3pt as a College sophomore, and now he can't get on the floor for the Celtics.

Moral of the story ... look for talent we can develop in the draft, not answers for our current roster problems.

[jbk1234]

Agbaji is slightly shorter than Okoro (6'4.5" at the 2021 combine) and likely best as a SG and not a SF. We already have three NBA rotation-level SGs in Sexton, Okoro, and LeVert. Agbaji might be the best shooter of all of them, but he's a bad ballhandler/playmaker at the college level (fewer assists than turnovers) and while he projects as a good defender, he's not getting steals at a high rate, so he's pretty much in the Okoro mold there. He pretty much requires a trade or letting Sexton walk, he either needs to play right away or he's a bust. And since the draft would happen before the trade, we're looking at losing value.

Brown strikes me as a slightly longer Okoro-- just as raw, no handle, defense/transition/cutter, "potential to be average" shooting from 3 according to one draft profile on virtually no volume. You either need to be really confident in the future development in his and the whole team's shooting, or you're resigning yourself to a team that's going to play defense-first. In which case we have Lamar Stevens.

Much rather have Liddell (bigger F who can shoot and contribute right away at the 3, assume he'd be an injury away from starting at the 3 or 4 if JA or Mobley went down) than Brown. Or Branham than Agbaji (has an outside shot like Agbaji, better passer Agbaji, better at finding his own shot than senior Agbaji, has the physical tools defensively to develop, young enough to give 3rd string or Charge reps without being a disappointment while the varsity depth chart drama plays out). But like I said, I'd strongly consider trading down or out.

Agbaji is a far better, and more frequent, shooter from 3-point range than any of LeVert, Okoro or Sexton. He can also defend. That's precisely what we need. Eventually, if Lauri slides to the bench, we can run some offense out of the 3/4 position as well. I'd argue that the Cavs will be far more difficult team to defend if Mobley develops offensively enough to the point where you can run sets with him at the elbow.

It doesn't matter though because he won't be on the board at No. 14. Some mocks have him going as high as No. 7.

As for Agbaji, I've just got to caution we're looking at a 4 year college player there. Of course some of the 3/4 year guys have done very well as pros justifying their selection and we should be considering them; but we can't compare Isaac who's playing in the NBA during what might had been his Junior year at Auburn to a College Senior shooting 3's from the NCAA line.

Consider Agabaji was only a 30.7% 3pt shooter as a freshman ... or we can look at LeVert who played 4 years at Michigan and managed to pump up his 3pt% from 30.2% as a freshman to 44.6% as a senior. How predictive was that?

Aaron Nesmith couldn't miss from 3pt as a College sophomore, and now he can't get on the floor for the Celtics.

Moral of the story ... look for talent we can develop in the draft, not answers for our current roster problems.

Well, I'd argue that unlike the past four years, the Cavs are actually in a position where having a 4-year player might be better than bringing in another 19-year old who might be able to contribute in year three. Most people would tell you that Agabaji is a far better defender than Neismith was coming out of college which is part of the reason he can't get on the floor with a competitive team. I'm not as down on Okoro as other Cavs fans, I'm just ready to give his starting spot to LeVert anyway and let him develop off the bench next season.

[toooskies]

Agbaji is a far better, and more frequent, shooter from 3-point range than any of LeVert, Okoro or Sexton. He can also defend. That's precisely what we need. Eventually, if Lauri slides to the bench, we can run some offense out of the 3/4 position as well. I'd argue that the Cavs will be far more difficult team to defend if Mobley develops offensively enough to the point where you can run sets with him at the elbow.

It doesn't matter though because he wont' be on the board at No. 14. Some mocks have him going as high as No. 7.

Agbaji has a notable volume lead, but Sexton has a better career NBA 3p% than Agbaji does in college, over the same timespan.

I don't disagree that if you're correct that if the Cavs need exactly the skills you think they need at the 2 (which I disagree with), AND Agbaji's shooting and defense translate, that he'd be a fine pick, but never a home run where he turns into an elite two-way guy. But plenty of 4-year guys have had their shooting and defense not translate all the way.

Put another way: the upside on a 4-year guy whose main/only skills are 3 and D translate right away is Malcolm Brogdon. You could trade much less than the #14 pick to get Malcolm Brogdon right now.

I guess it really comes down to how good you think Allen, Mobley and Garland are. Either you think that with time they'll be enough, with the right commentary pieces around them, or not. But my fear with guys like LeVert and Sexton is that they'll take the ball out of the hands of those three, and the result will be worse, not better in terms of overall team efficiency.

It's not just the made threes, but the ability of Allen, Mobley, and Garland not to have to play through double teams if they're surrounded by good shooters that I'd really like to see. I think that type of spacing is probably going to be necessary for Mobley to develop into the player we want him to be.

In terms of Agbaji, he's probably the best three point shooter of the two players in this draft, and if you compare his shooting numbers with Sexton's college numbers, or even his rookie numbers, it's not close. But again, he'll be gone and we don't have that Houston 2nd to try to jump a team like the Hornets. There's just too many win now teams picking ahead of us for a 4-year player to fall that far IMO.

There's no evidence that 4-year players in the college spotlight are any better at helping you win now than younger guys. Otherwise they would've been drafted earlier. What did Davion Mitchell do? Plus shooter in college his senior year, shot 31% his first year in the NBA. What did Korey Kispert do? Plus shooter all four years in college, shot 35% from 3 in the NBA. Let's win now, guys!

All you really know is that they have less time to hit their ceiling.